Pirates and WAREZers - you suck!

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:30 pm

a real example of piracy's impact - and this is a top-notch series of games -- the "if they wouldn't make bad games we wouldn't pirate" argument crap gets no play here. So sorry.

Pirates are killing one of my favorite developers. FU, pirates.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:23 pm

In the first year of the original IL-2 run %20 of the users were using pirated copy of the game. Mostly in China and Russia. Percentage of illegal users on the West was negligible.

Pre-broadband, I assume?

But now (with FB+AEP) about %60 of users worldwide are using pirated version of the game.

60%? Owie.

So what's the solution? Education? Anti-copying tech? Tchotchkes?

Darkfyre · Post by **Darkfyre** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:01 pm

Well I'm sure the pirates hate you too, but what are you going to do? Pirating will always exist. If you want to hault human nature, good luck there, otherwise just shrug your shoulders.

Cheers,

Darkfyre

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:15 pm

I'm not arguing about the conclusions, but those are some very, very specific numbers. I'm curous about how they came to those percentages (10% IL2, 60% IL2 Gold).

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:07 pm

Darkfyre wrote:Well I'm sure the pirates hate you too, but what are you going to do? Pirating will always exist. If you want to hault human nature, good luck there, otherwise just shrug your shoulders.

Cheers,

Darkfyre

I suppose that's one solution. Personally, I'd rather see draconian copy protection than this kind of crap. Which is why I don't get all bent when people whine that they can;t find a noCD crack. Cause it's SOOOOOO hard to get up off your ass and put a CD in the frickin' drive.

I have some friends that pirate games. What I do is buy them the games they pirate for Christmas/birthdays etc. Occasionally they get irritated. Which makes me happy.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:19 pm

Bob wrote:
In the first year of the original IL-2 run %20 of the users were using pirated copy of the game. Mostly in China and Russia. Percentage of illegal users on the West was negligible.
Pre-broadband, I assume?

But now (with FB+AEP) about %60 of users worldwide are using pirated version of the game.
60%? Owie.

So what's the solution? Education? Anti-copying tech? Tchotchkes?

The worldwide stats can be confusing. I would wager that nearly all games in China and most in Russia are pirated. The fact that the number for the latest release is at 60% (assuming same statistical method) might also mean that there are more PC users in China and Russia, not necessarily more broadband users elsewhere. Probably a combination of both, though.

The solution? Kickass multiplayer with a keyserver or other authentication. Half-life was a great game, but WON (with CS and TFC) made people buy it. Not morals.

Pirating is killing single player games, not multiplayer games. Very few pirates are playing on Steam, Novaworld, Bnet, etc. As much as I hate having to connect to a server to find a server, if it means legit players I'll deal with it. And you won't find any on MMORPGs.

Eel Snave · Post by **Eel Snave** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm

I used to never pirate games, but then I worked at computer store where it was rampant, and fell into the practice. Now, I'm out of the practice, but I think a lot of it falls into whom you are associating with. At that store, not one of the people saw anything wrong with it whatsoever, and the majority were gamers from the DOOM era and stuff. They had been playing a long time and still saw no problem.

Now that I don't deal with them whatsoever, I wonder what got into me that I started pirating (YARR!) games. I figure now, though, that if it happened to me, it could happen to anyone. I figure most pirates of games are just people with wayward consciences, not hardcore pirates. The hardcore won't listen to criticism. The waywards just want to play Doom because they don't have any money right now to buy it.

St. Mark · Post by **St. Mark** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:04 am

Would it really cost much to have a type of anti-piracy system where the game company sells direct and makes every individual game disc unique (for the purposes of registration) so that if someone copies and distributes the game, it could be traced back to the original owner and then possible action could be taken? I know that there could be scenarios where someone's game could be physically stolen from them and then pirated, but maybe this way gamers would protect their games as much as they do with their credit cards and blatant piracy overall could be decreased.

What do you all think of this idea?

jpinard · Post by **jpinard** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:44 am

That is really disturbing. I like Oleg's games - have purchased all his flight-sims. Pisses me off China doesn't do squat about piracy.

gorky1 · Post by **gorky1** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:15 pm

The hard, un-answerable question is, How many people who pirated it would have bought it if they hadn't had access to an illegal version?

If the answer's everybody, we do have a big problem. If the answer's nobody, we don't have a problem, but free advertising. I don't know Chinese retail prices, but if legal copies cost 50 USD over there as well, I suspect it's closer to "nobody" than "everybody".

I don't mean to condone piracy. If it's not worth 50 bucks, it's not worth my time, so I either pay or don't play. But if you have a total yearly income of 1000 dollars, 50 are 5 percent of your income. That'd be like spending 3'000 for one single game if you make 60'000 dollars a year. Imagine what the wife would say.

jpinard · Post by **jpinard** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:00 pm

Gorky - In both China and Russia you can buy CD copies for just $1 at a street vendor, go 1/2 block farther into a real shop and find the retail version for $40. It's ridiculous.

Samurai · Post by **Samurai** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:26 pm

I would like to know how they got the 60% figure as well... did they go around polling pirates and asking them if they bought the game?

And yeah, I'm sure China and Russia bring up the worldwide piracy total quite a bit.

jpinard · Post by **jpinard** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:36 pm

The % is based on those trying to fly on-line with hacked copies.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:24 am

Just wanted to give you a pirate's perspective here.

I do pirate stuff. Happens fairly frequently. One time I even pirated an independant game. Again, that only happened once. Most of the time I pirate major releases. Now, for more info:

I buy a lot of games. I mean a LOT. If I suddenly get 50 bucks, I will buy games before purchasing food. I am a game addict. I go through several a month. And I do buy as many as I can.

That said, for my personality, it seems like it isn't enough. So when I lack money, I pirate. Then when I get money, I go buy more games. It is how I am.

So, I can't speak for other pirates, but I can say that for myself, I definitally support the industry to the most of my abilities.

If you really think that is wrong, then you and I do not see eye-to-eye. Sorry that you think I am an evil person, but I don't think that I am.

jpinard · Post by **jpinard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:53 am

Chris, I like you a lot. AND I don't think you're evil, but I also don't think you should seriously take that same argument and apply it to other necessities. Everyone "needs" food too, so when money is low do you just steal the food you need as well? Farmers aare doing OK, and developers are depsrarte, so why not steal food so you can purcahse all your games?

OR:

What if when you HAVE money now, you buy what's out and it's just all EA Sports plus a DOOM3 here and a Half-Life2 there...Games....

4 months later you're broke, not a cent to your name, and some amazing games come out like (Gal Civ 2, Masters of Magic 2, Pacific Fighters, Axis and Allies, World at War, Silent Hunter III, and Empire Earth 2, and Combat Mission 2)...these games you want are made by struggling developers. So you do you same old thing? You have no money and just pirate all the critical titles?!

So in essence you can actually make things worse; By from the big guy, steal pirate from the little guy.

Chris, if you really have an addiction, then this is what I suggest you do. BUDGET> Don't just buy stuff for whatever gamesare out. SAVE it! Make sure your money goes to those where the impact is greater. Make sure your money goes to the Battlefront's, the Stardock's, and for the games that spectacular. Don't steal from them!!! If you HAVE to pirate, pirate a game that sucks and get horrible reviews. And the next time you just ""need that next game" go find another crappy valueware product and steal play that.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:57 am

Gal Civ 2, Masters of Magic 2, Pacific Fighters, Axis and Allies, World at War, Silent Hunter III, and Empire Earth 2, and Combat Mission 2

I only know 2 of those games. Allow me to assure you, I don't pirate that type of game, because I don't *like* those types of games. But allow me to assure you personally, if a small developer releases a game I want, I will actually buy it. It is usually the big releases that I pirate.

And for the food thing, a better example would be this:

You purchase as much food as you have money for. Then, McDonalds releases some coupons that allow you to get their food for free, and you print a TON of them off the internet, and get free McDonalds food. Sure, you are totally scamming them, but hey, its McDonalds.

Itsatrap · Post by **Itsatrap** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:49 am

ChrisGrenard wrote:That said, for my personality, it seems like it isn't enough. So when I lack money, I pirate. Then when I get money, I go buy more games. It is how I am.

Sorry Chris, not trying to single you out specifically, but why is it that people will pirate specific titles rather than just, you know, not play those games?

Oh, and the food example isn't a very good one because, last I checked, survival >> recreation.

- Alan

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:11 am

Sorry Chris, not trying to single you out specifically, but why is it that people will pirate specific titles rather than just, you know, not play those games?

Obviously, I can't speak for everybody, but I can say for me it is more of a thing where if everybody is talking about the game (The GG forum effect, if you will) I want to have it. Then, quite often, I pirate it and never play it.

So basically it is because I like having a lot of stuff. (Which is totally materialistic, but... I dunno, I like it)

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:23 am

Oleg should have made a WWI sim instead, we're a more honorable lot.

Chivalry, knights of the air and all that...

I'm really starting to think that most of you on the net are dirtbags.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:33 am

em2nought wrote:I'm really starting to think that most of you on the net are dirtbags.

Odd statement. One one hand, it insults most people, but then we get the

Hmm... let me try this with somebody I know and like... Hey! Eel! FU jackass!

Are you insulted or not Eel?

Thin_J · Post by **Thin_J** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:15 pm

geezer wrote:I have some friends that pirate games. What I do is buy them the games they pirate for Christmas/birthdays etc. Occasionally they get irritated. Which makes me happy.

For some reason, this gave me quite a good laugh.

Ranulf · Post by **Ranulf** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:27 pm

Of course, the whole idea that serious flight-sims is a dying genre (and has been for years) such that you only have the hardcore fans buying (and majorly influencing development) might have to do with their lack of sales. Sure piracy sucks and may have some effect here but

Percentage of illegal users on the West was negligible.

says to me that they were making money.

To count on the chinese and russian markets to not pirate these days is just plain bad business. Perhaps folks got tired of buying add-ons for IL2. Also, do these number take no-cd cracks into account? Many legit owners of software use them...

jpinard · Post by **jpinard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:45 pm

em2nought wrote:Oleg should have made a WWI sim instead, we're a more honorable lot. Chivalry, knights of the air and all that...

I'm really starting to think that most of you on the net are dirtbags.

Thanks for remiding me!!!!!!!!!!! I just remembered reading a PC Gamer article where they mentioned the big fat update for Red baron 3D. Gotta go order that... I heard it SUPER fantastic.

www.plgrafix.com

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:35 pm

jpinard wrote:
em2nought wrote:Oleg should have made a WWI sim instead, we're a more honorable lot. Chivalry, knights of the air and all that...

I'm really starting to think that most of you on the net are dirtbags.
Thanks for remiding me!!!!!!!!!!! I just remembered reading a PC Gamer article where they mentioned the big fat update for Red baron 3D. Gotta go order that... I heard it SUPER fantastic.

www.plgrafix.com

It is indeed awesome

You are talking about the "full canvas jacket" superpatch right?

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:37 pm

ChrisGrenard wrote:Just wanted to give you a pirate's perspective here.

I do pirate stuff. Happens fairly frequently. One time I even pirated an independant game. Again, that only happened once. Most of the time I pirate major releases. Now, for more info:

I buy a lot of games. I mean a LOT. If I suddenly get 50 bucks, I will buy games before purchasing food. I am a game addict. I go through several a month. And I do buy as many as I can.

That said, for my personality, it seems like it isn't enough. So when I lack money, I pirate. Then when I get money, I go buy more games. It is how I am.

So, I can't speak for other pirates, but I can say that for myself, I definitally support the industry to the most of my abilities.

If you really think that is wrong, then you and I do not see eye-to-eye. Sorry that you think I am an evil person, but I don't think that I am.

I don't think you are "Evil" but I do think you are a thief. Not to mention selfish and rather arrogant about it. [gratuitous insult removed -- sorry - Geezer]. Part of me thinks you're just trying to get my goat though...

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:47 pm

Thanks for being so nice about it. And I was not trying to rile you or get your goat, I was simply trying to give you one persons reasons.

And I am very glad to hear that I am now in the dirtbag catagory, along with other comperable people like child molesters, politicians and people who talk at theatres.

Edit:

Oh yeah, and geezer, if you have a brilliant plan to help me spend even more money on games, please, let me know. I am very interested in finding out how I can spend more money than I have on games. Heck, if you have some plan to help me buy every single game ever made (and two copies of the really good ones!) let me know. Until then, I will continue to spend as much as I can on games, and pirate some others.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:39 pm

Before anybody even replies, let me first off apologize for that previous post. I got too venomous there, and that kind of attitude will not help with this discussion, or with our ability to come to a sort of agreement.

So, for that post, I apologize.

Now, let me try to explain in a more constructive manner my feelings on the matter. I will try to use an example from my life.

Back when I was in middle school, a friend of mine was hit and killed by a drunk driver.

Now, it would be extremely easy for me to blame alcohol for this incident, and publically denounce anybody who drinks alcohol. But I realise that alcohol is not really the problem. The problem is the type of people who get really drunk and then go driving, even after possibly having their license revoked.

You cannot blame everybody who drinks for what the single evil drunken driver does.

Similarly, you and many publishing companies seem to want to blame the equivelent of everybody who drinks to the single drunk driver who kills somebody.

Now, allow me to explain without using that example.

Piracy in the United States is a pretty small problem. From what I have seen, it looks like piracy in the US makes up perhaps 1-2% of all piracy. The problem is other countries like China and Russia who pirate EVERYTHING. I would be amazed if there is more than 10 legit copies of WindowsXP in the entire nation of China. That is the problem, not petty pirates here in the US. But so often you look to blame us for the failing of the games market.

Now, for a bit about myself.

I truly and honestly do not feel that I hurt the games industry. Not even the smallest bit. I feel this way because I support the industry to the max of my ability. I cannot do anything more to help the industry. It is therefore my feeling that I am not hurting it by pirating some games. Do you at least understand what I mean by this? That is where all of my feelings on piracy come from.

Now, obviously, I cannot speak for all pirates, and yes, there are some people here in the US who pirate probably everything. Feel free to curse them and hate them. But to generically say that you hate *every* pirate and that pirates everywhere are what is causing the failure of some companies in the games industry is not correct. There are plenty of people who pirate who also purchase many games, and to hate them seems wrong to me.

You don't have to agree with me on this, but I want you to understand what I am saying. Can I at least ask you to say that you at least understand where I am coming from on this?

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:44 pm

I too was a little to obnoxious and not constructive. I apologize. I do have some thoughts on what you wrote, but dinner is ready -- I'll edit this back later to reply in depth...

ChrisGrenard wrote:Before anybody even replies, let me first off apologize for that previous post. I got too venomous there, and that kind of attitude will not help with this discussion, or with our ability to come to a sort of agreement.

So, for that post, I apologize.

Now, let me try to explain in a more constructive manner my feelings on the matter. I will try to use an example from my life.

Back when I was in middle school, a friend of mine was hit and killed by a drunk driver.

Now, it would be extremely easy for me to blame alcohol for this incident, and publically denounce anybody who drinks alcohol. But I realise that alcohol is not really the problem. The problem is the type of people who get really drunk and then go driving, even after possibly having their license revoked.

You cannot blame everybody who drinks for what the single evil drunken driver does.

Similarly, you and many publishing companies seem to want to blame the equivelent of everybody who drinks to the single drunk driver who kills somebody.

Now, allow me to explain without using that example.

Piracy in the United States is a pretty small problem. From what I have seen, it looks like piracy in the US makes up perhaps 1-2% of all piracy. The problem is other countries like China and Russia who pirate EVERYTHING. I would be amazed if there is more than 10 legit copies of WindowsXP in the entire nation of China. That is the problem, not petty pirates here in the US. But so often you look to blame us for the failing of the games market.

Now, for a bit about myself.

I truly and honestly do not feel that I hurt the games industry. Not even the smallest bit. I feel this way because I support the industry to the max of my ability. I cannot do anything more to help the industry. It is therefore my feeling that I am not hurting it by pirating some games. Do you at least understand what I mean by this? That is where all of my feelings on piracy come from.

Now, obviously, I cannot speak for all pirates, and yes, there are some people here in the US who pirate probably everything. Feel free to curse them and hate them. But to generically say that you hate *every* pirate and that pirates everywhere are what is causing the failure of some companies in the games industry is not correct. There are plenty of people who pirate who also purchase many games, and to hate them seems wrong to me.

You don't have to agree with me on this, but I want you to understand what I am saying. Can I at least ask you to say that you at least understand where I am coming from on this?

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:51 pm

geezer, before you get back I wanted to say one more quick thing. I originally posted in this thread just because of the title. "Pirates and WAREZers - you suck!"

I'm just trying to point out that it is pretty common to just generalize pirates as the "You suck!" folks, and really, I would bet that most people who are pirates are good people. I'm not really saying that piracy is good, because it is not, but I get tired of so many people using the word "pirate" the way you might use the word "Nazi," as in an evil person who you can pick on and nobody will mind.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:53 am

ChrisGrenard wrote:And I am very glad to hear that I am now in the dirtbag catagory, along with other comperable people like child molesters, politicians and people who talk at theatres.

Just to clarify, my post was only a response to the first post in the thread, I hadn't even read any of your postings prior to my post.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:40 am

em2nought wrote:
ChrisGrenard wrote:And I am very glad to hear that I am now in the dirtbag catagory, along with other comperable people like child molesters, politicians and people who talk at theatres.
Just to clarify, my post was only a response to the first post in the thread, I hadn't even read any of your postings prior to my post.

Eh? I wasn't actually referring to you, don't worry about it. I was talking to geezer, but then I realised how vile I was being, and thus apologized for it. So don't worry about it at all, no harm done.

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:45 am

OK.. here's the thing. (I'm going to combine my response to the above comments and this one in one post). First, I guess I should have said, were I being completely specific, "Pirates and WAREZers - your pirating and WARZing behavior sucks!"

I am 100% unrepentant on that opinion, and frankly I don't think that the fact that you buy 100 games a month means you get a free pass when you steal the 101st. Now, I'll admit that in buying 100 games that yes, you contribute more to the well being of the industry in general than probably even someone who only buys 12 games a year and NEVER pirates.

Still, what about the unlucky producer/developer that happens to market that 101st game? The simple fact is that you have stolen something from that company/individual and it's not right. They have put x hours and x$ into making a product that you have not compensated them for. It's easyy to justify when you figure that you've supported lots of other developers I suppose, but when it comes down to it, you have taken rightfully earned money from SOME individual just as if you went to their bank account and snagged 50 bucks with an ATM card you found. The simple fact that you DIDN'T tak ethe 50 from the other 100 guys whose cards you found doesn't really help any.

Finally, I'm not making any judgments as to whether you or any other pirate is a "good person" or not, and no, I wouldn't equate downloading a game with murdering a family of four, but neither will I back off of my contention that what you are doing directly hurts people that put hard work and time into a product. And I have no respect for that.

ChrisGrenard wrote:geezer, before you get back I wanted to say one more quick thing. I originally posted in this thread just because of the title. "Pirates and WAREZers - you suck!"

I'm just trying to point out that it is pretty common to just generalize pirates as the "You suck!" folks, and really, I would bet that most people who are pirates are good people. I'm not really saying that piracy is good, because it is not, but I get tired of so many people using the word "pirate" the way you might use the word "Nazi," as in an evil person who you can pick on and nobody will mind.

Kratz · Post by **Kratz** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:48 am

If it makes you feel any better, geezer, I've bought every Il-2 title, and I've got Pacific Fighters on pre-order... I definitely see the impact of piracy being a lot larger on a dev like Maddox that is developing resource intensive games in a niche market - even with the best flight sim in the world (hey, which they have), they aren't going to move the units that a 2nd rate RTS would. Sad, but true, and they will certainly get my gaming dollar to carry on.

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:58 am

Kratz wrote:If it makes you feel any better, geezer, I've bought every Il-2 title, and I've got Pacific Fighters on pre-order... I definitely see the impact of piracy being a lot larger on a dev like Maddox that is developing resource intensive games in a niche market - even with the best flight sim in the world (hey, which they have), they aren't going to move the units that a 2nd rate RTS would. Sad, but true, and they will certainly get my gaming dollar to carry on.

I'm glad someone is

I have PF on order too - really loking forwaad to it, although there are apparently many, many people already playing it online. go figure

Anyway, I was just using them as an example.. typically, people use the "we wouldn;t pirate games if they didn;t suck" and the "big companies are just greedy -- it doesn;t matter" arguments, both of which I think a situation like Maddox's shows are not necessarily valid arguments.

Eel Snave · Post by **Eel Snave** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:06 pm

Chris, you're not my boyfriend anymore.

Here's the list of games I have pirated:

Edit: HAHA! SUCKERS! LIKE I'LL TELL YOU! Burn in hell!

This was when I had no money whatsoever. Medal of Honor was merely "meh" to me. The more I played Morrowang, the more I wanted to buy it for the expansions and stuff. The more I played GTA3, the less I wanted it because it sucks. I wasn't able to play much of Freespace 2 because I don't have a joystick. A lot of the abandonware games didn't work quite right for me, either.

Am I excusing pirating? By no means. Do I understand the reasons behind it? Yes. Now that I have more money, am I going to catch up on the games I've pirated and liked? Yes.

And isn't buying a game secondhand just as bad, if not worse, for the industry? Or maybe trading them on a forum where neither company gets anything? Granted, I'm not comparing them. One is stealing and one is not. The monetary problem is not the issue, though, and too much emphasis is placed upon that end. It should be placed instead on the morals of the situation. I don't pirate anymore. I won't. But for a time I did. Does this make me evil?

I'm rambling.

Aliasbuck · Post by **Aliasbuck** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:36 pm

Does this make me evil?

Yes, please change your name to Evil Snave immediately. Thank you - the Managment.

<--- evil management guy

Eel Snave · Post by **Eel Snave** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:56 pm

Oooh, I like that!

Don't move! I'm taking your mind!

Oooweeeooooo....

Kael · Post by **Kael** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:58 pm

Chris I appreciate you having the guts to tell how you feel in a forum where you are unlikely to find many people that agree with you. That said, I disagree with you as well. You analogy about drunk driving doesn't apply because the other people that drink are doing so legally. It isn't right to blame them for someone who commits a crime which involves alcohol. But if you do something illegal (like pirate games) it is fair to blame you for that activitly and the effects of that activity (reduced profit for the games industry).

I had this huge write up after this but what it all comes down to is, its stealing, its wrong, don't do it. If you can't afford it learn to live without.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:51 pm

Wait.... Kael, did your analogy there just basically state that it is bad because it is illegal?

To be entirely honest, I don't think that legal/illegal has anything to do with what is right and wrong.

geezer · Post by **geezer** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:45 pm

ChrisGrenard wrote:Wait.... Kael, did your analogy there just basically state that it is bad because it is illegal?

To be entirely honest, I don't think that legal/illegal has anything to do with what is right and wrong.

Nor do I, just for the record. I think it's wrong because it directly causes a material loss to another individual, and because it secondarily has an effect on the people that enjoy other products from that individual/company.