The Cost of Independent Game Development

[Buatha]

I've moved this from the Dominions 3 thread as I seem to be doing more harm than good since I'm all for independent game developers and would love to have their input here.

Just for the record, I wanted to state that I am not a fanboy of Illwinter Games nor have I ever played Dom2. I am also not stating that anyone should just be happy with what many think is an expansion pack (which I understand given what I've only seen from screenshots of the previous version).

With that said, I've been thinking about the plight of indie developers and the general opinion that the gaming community believes that we need more of them for new and original games. However, it seems like an indie developer can't meet our expectations with current graphics technology and teams of programmers/testers to make it all happen.

Here's a snipet from from a Troika game developer:

To help everyone better understand, I will explain Publisher funding vs. Developer return process. I'm going to simplify it a lot, but this is more or less how it works.... and it's really quite amazing...

After they agree to fund your game for 6 million, you begin production. They give you 500k a month upon receiving, reviewing, and approving your milestone. They are basically checking every month to make sure the game is actually being made and going in a good direction Fair enough. To keep things easy, let's say the game ships on time and they've given you a clean 6 million bucks.

Ready?.... You get 10% of the royalties of the game! So like if the game sells 1 million units at Electronics Boutique for 50 bucks a piece, you get 5 million dollars coming back at you right?!??!

WRONG

EB bought the game for 40 dollars and sells it for 50. Now the publisher takes away their expenses of producing the full color manual and the pretty box and such which we'll say is 10 bucks (usually more like 7, but let's keep the math easy). So now we are down to 30 bucks, and you get 10% of that... 3 bucks.... but WAIT!!!

Your 3 dollars doesn't go into your pocket, your 3 bucks goes to pay back the publisher what you borrowed to make the game. They did give you 6 million dollars. So before the developer see's a check in the mail, you would have to sell 2 million units!!!!! So the developer before the developer gets a check, the publisher gets 30 million dollars coming in.

Now, I believe this was a from a Troika developer with full retail box/manual/advertising from their publisher. So, I guess I could understand the arrangement, but this doesn't really apply to Illwinter/Shrapnel since they seem to only be selling this directly right now.

So, assuming that $15 is for the manual and shipping (just a guess for round math), that leaves $40. So, maybe Shrapnel gets 65%, that would leave Illwinter with $14 per unit sold. Finally, if this is a niche market, I'm going to assume 2,000 units for now.

14 X 2000 = $28,000

Frankly, I don't understand how any game developer makes very much money in the industry. I was technical support for Three-Sixty Pacific back in the early nineties and they eventually went bankrupt. This was from a niche wargaming company with a Hall of Fame game (Harpoon) and three games (V for Victory series) in the top 5 Strategy/War game section in CGW in 1991 or so.

Finally, I will be buying the game since I would rather give my money to an indie developer that's making an effort even if it comes across as "charity" to others.

[Butterknife]

Any modern game development company realizes that the money is in the up-front payment for the game and NOT in the royalties. Personally, I think that is the big reason why games aren't as good as they used to be -- developers don't have the financial motivation. If it is "good enough" they get the same payment as if it is a great hit.

In terms of the smaller development houses (and Illwinter is small -- two guys if I remember correctly) it functions differently. Royalty payments are still a big deal for those guys. If you sell a finished game to a publisher royalty rates are much higher (the publisher didn't fund your development, and carries less risk of the game not being completed). I'm sure Illwinter's deal with Shrapnel is far better than the one outlined in your Troika example.

One other thing, I seem to remember that the Illwinter guys make enough money on Dominions that they can work on it full-time (they don't have other jobs, which is generally the case for very small developers). I would also be amazed if they only sold a couple thousand copies of the game ... remember, it is supposed to be one of Shrapnel's best-sellers. I'm sure that their unit sales are far higher, and that their profit per-unit is higher as well.

[Buatha]

I wasn't sure if they were still working or not as someone at the Shrapnel site made it sound like they were still working as teachers. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea of how many units they pre-sold since they're not saying, but it would be a nice indicator of the popularity of the game.

[dfs]

Frankly, I don't understand how any game developer makes very much money in the industry.

JFWIW, that's how several "creative" industries work. They are driven by hits that act to subsidize everybody else. Publishers stay in buisness because...well somebody had the fortune to stumble upon Dan Brown.

I seem to remember that the Illwinter guys make enough money on Dominions that they can work on it full-time

I've heard that is true of Aaron for Space Empires, but somebody from Shrapnel was...I think it was here.... saying the Illwinter guys are still plugging away at day jobs.

[Buatha]

I seem to remember that the Illwinter guys make enough money on Dominions that they can work on it full-time

I've heard that is true of Aaron for Space Empires, but somebody from Shrapnel was...I think it was here.... saying the Illwinter guys are still plugging away at day jobs.

I believe that was one of the reasons it has taken so long for the new version and the appearance of the game looking very similar, which seems to be one of the criticisms against Space Empires V now.

I sometimes wonder if we've just been programmed for sequels having to be significantly different from the previous versions. I think, for a time, the Gold Box series showed that you could release games with tweaked engines and still do well.

If this is just a two-man operation, I'd imagine that they would almost have to re-use many parts to just cut down the time for development. I don't know how big the staff is for the SE V franchise, but everyone says the only thing updated seems to be the 3D tactical battles.

[Giles Habibula]

This topic has always interested me, since I've always wanted to learn how to make my own game--a one-man operation. Yeah, the engine would suck and the artwork would suck, but I always figured I'd make it up in gameplay.

That dream got dashed in a hurry when graphics grew beyond 320 x 240 and 2D. Now everywhere I look, I read stuff like, "Great game, but the graphics suck," or "This game looks as if it was produced in 1997."

Just like Hollywood, looks are everything.

Not that my game ever would have got made otherwise, but I seriously toyed with ideas for years. Just thinking about it was fun. Now, I've officially given up (though I do still 'window-shop' online for affordable or free game engines, just in case).

[docvego]

There is a brief article in the latest PC Gamer (Dec 2006) about the whole graphics kill indie artists thing. They mention Garage Games and their software systems/engines that they hope can help give indie devs a chance to compete like they used to back in the old days. I haven't dug around their website much yet, but I did see the phrase "$100 indie dev licence".

http://www.garagegames.com/

[Scanner]

So before the developer see's a check in the mail, you would have to sell 2 million units!!!!!

So, uh, where did the $500K/month go?

[Smoove_B]

If only the costs just amounted to dollars. What value do you put on the 5 years of my life that are gone?

I feel for indie developers and try to support them whenever possible. When you turn your hobby into a potential job, it changes the way you look at computer gaming.

[milo]

There was a brief window in the late nineties up through maybe 2001 where a one-man operation could compete with a large studio on an almost level playing field. 3D cards were the limiting factor then, so it was possible to get by with good programming skills and average artwork. There is only so much you can do with 200 polygons and one 256x256 texture per game object, and it doesn't take very long to crank that stuff out.

That window has closed. Professional studios are creating really beautiful, complex, detailed art by the bucketload, and it takes an army of talented and hardworking artists to keep up.

There was a brief window in the late nineties up through maybe 2003 where a one-man operation could reasonably expect to succeed in the casual games market, just by virtue of it being uncrowded.

Unfortunately, I think that window has closed as well.

Basically, indie game development sucks. It's a good thing I never quit my day job.

[Kael]

Yeah, I was offered a job at a game company and turned it down. Games are my passion but the business model isn't very viable for supporting a full industry.

A few things will have to change to make it better.

1. More paying gamers. I believe this is inevitable, the game industry will continue to grow to rival that of other major entertainment industires (movies/television/sports). More money into the system means that publishers are more liekly to take risks and mega hits will be more common and company altering events (instead of just prolonging forclosure for another year).

2. Shorter and cheaper games. Yeah I know this sounds bad. Heck I love Civ4 and I spend days playing it. But the industry cant thrive if its hard core fanbase gets by on 4-5 games a year. The change to "Episodes" for shorter and cheaper games experiences is good for the player and the companies.

3. A special case of the above, MMORPG's. They are hurting the game industry. I know change is always painful (and inevitable) and it probably only marks a change in the way we play games but it is very difficult to maintain a healthy growth industry when such a large portion of the fan base is only interested in one product. To compare it to a movie its like that movie is always playing and the fans keep going back to see the same thing over and over, even when new movies are released.

I dont know what the solution to this is. I guess the industry will have to adapt. The CCG's tried to adapt around magic and what they found was very few other CCG's were able to exist along with Magic. The draw to continue building in one game, and not waste time in another, creates a monogamey (get it mono'game'y) that hurts other products instead of boosting them as it does in other industries (where a popular musican cant fill of a listeners music needs so similiar artists recieve some fo the overflow business).

4. Mods. I think game companies need to support pay for mods for their products siliamr to what WotC did with the Open Gaming License for AD&D. Anyone can use their core product to create and sell a mod as long as they don't remove the need for the core product. At that point to have amatueur and non-industry game designers that are able to produce mods or niche games without overhead, and they are able to be rewarded for their efforts.

[KePoW]

3. A special case of the above, MMORPG's. They are hurting the game industry. I know change is always painful (and inevitable) and it probably only marks a change in the way we play games but it is very difficult to maintain a healthy growth industry when such a large portion of the fan base is only interested in one product. To compare it to a movie its like that movie is always playing and the fans keep going back to see the same thing over and over, even when new movies are released.

I dont know what the solution to this is. I guess the industry will have to adapt

what you say is all true, but I have no sympathy for the others who are trying to make unorthodox games and failing at it. it's free market capitalism at its best, which is something I strongly believe in

if there is a huge number of gamers who continously play only this one product, then who are you to tell them that they shouldn't? congrats to the devs and company who made something that so many people like. other devs need to make games that the masses will like too, or else they should get out of the industry if they're so unhappy when they fail at doing so. don't complain when you make some type of weird and strange niche-type game, and it turns out to be a financial failure because common people can't get into it. if you're going to make a game for a potentially small niche market, then adjust your budget accordingly

the bottom line is that you can't force people to like specific things, even if they're acclaimed by the esoteric critics. if you're in this industry to make money, then you need to sell something to the mass-market

[Kadoth Nodens]

4. Mods. I think game companies need to support pay for mods for their products siliamr to what WotC did with the Open Gaming License for AD&D. Anyone can use their core product to create and sell a mod as long as they don't remove the need for the core product. At that point to have amatueur and non-industry game designers that are able to produce mods or niche games without overhead, and they are able to be rewarded for their efforts.

That's brilliant.

[Buatha]

what you say is all true, but I have no sympathy for the others who are trying to make unorthodox games and failing at it. it's free market capitalism at its best, which is something I strongly believe in

Just out of curiosity, what is your profession? I usually find that people's profession usually determines their view toward free market capitalism. Personally, I believe in fair free market capitalism, which I haven't seen yet since other countries have markets where they don't have to worry about minimum wages, healthcare, or even humanitarian concerns. However, this is a different topic.

I agree that your game shouldn't be too unorthodox just to stand out. It has to be fun and unorthodox. If you would have told me about Defcon, I would have thought it would be a little too morbid, but what do I know? It's doing great and everyone seems to like it.

I don't think Kael was saying that people shouldn't play WoW, he's just stating that a large enough portion of the gaming population are solely playing it and affecting the industry. Seriously, I lost one of my long-time gaming buddies to it. That's all he plays and has little interest in any games discussion I attempt since he doens't even look at other games now. Of course, this is another topic, too.

I think the Mod idea could be the source of new indie "developers" if they were allowed to make money from them. There are many mods for NWN that are quite professional in writing and presentation. Granted, they'd be limited by the engine/genre, but at least they could focus on gameplay if the nuts and bolts of the engine are available for them to alter and not have to focus on graphics since the assets are already there. Additiionally, if the graphic templates are also open, then an artist could even sell "art packs" for modders to utilize in their games.

[yossar]

what you say is all true, but I have no sympathy for the others who are trying to make unorthodox games and failing at it. it's free market capitalism at its best, which is something I strongly believe in

So the best part of free market capitalism is that it encourages mass market games that are all similar and discourages unique, critically acclaimed games? I think most people would disagree with you there.

[KePoW]

Just out of curiosity, what is your profession? I usually find that people's profession usually determines their view toward free market capitalism

in the family business of real estate development and home building

I don't think Kael was saying that people shouldn't play WoW, he's just stating that a large enough portion of the gaming population are solely playing it and affecting the industry. Seriously, I lost one of my long-time gaming buddies to it. That's all he plays and has little interest in any games discussion I attempt since he doens't even look at other games now

right, and I agree that's the case...I think we can all see what WoW is doing

all I'm saying is, if one game is so fun that it's all a large number of gamers wants to play, then so be it. what can you do about it? it's not like Blizzard is doing it through fraudulent means

so it's up to other devs to come out with a game that takes a gamer's interest away from WoW. that is, if you're a dev who is in it for the big money. I honestly have no problems with smaller dev houses that make niche-type games, as long as they have a realistic view of what their sales are going to be. that's what business is all about, sales projections and a corresponding budget. the devs I have a problem with are the ones who complain about WoW in one way or another. I mean, unless Blizzard is doing something criminal, then the burden is on others to take their piece of the pie. how big of a slice they want is up to them, and they should develop accordingly

[KePoW]

So the best part of free market capitalism is that it encourages mass market games that are all similar and discourages unique, critically acclaimed games? I think most people would disagree with you there.

most people here on hardcore internet gaming forums, yeah. but you realize that people who regularly post on a site like OO are the vast minority of the entire gaming market, right?

fact of the matter is, the majority of the world's population are simple-minded people (if you know what I mean). therefore, they want their entertainment to be relatively simple as well. they don't want something deep or unorthodox or off-the-wall, no matter how well made it is. cater to the masses, that's how you make a lot of money

it's not like publishers have never tried to put out non-traditional and innovative games before...there have been plenty of those. what are you going to do, force casual gamers to like certain things? who are you blaming here, the publishers or the common people?

developers can still make risky and imaginative games if they want, just don't expect to compete with, or even approach, WoW. if that's your goal, you better have a hell of a plan

[The Meal]

WoW is reality TV?

~Neal

[DireAussie]

So, assuming that $15 is for the manual and shipping (just a guess for round math), that leaves $40. So, maybe Shrapnel gets 65%, that would leave Illwinter with $14 per unit sold. Finally, if this is a niche market, I'm going to assume 2,000 units for now.

I'm sure Illwinter's deal with Shrapnel is far better than the one outlined in your Troika example.

I too think a 65% cut seems a bit excessive considering all Shrapnel are doing are organising manual production, cd burning, online sales and (limited) advertising. I would be curious to know what the figure would be close to, perhaps any indies here could provide an idea?

I'll do an analysis with more favourable figures - lets say $15 for manual/postage and Illwinter gets 50% ($20). Lets say they sell 20,000 copies over the next 2 years. That's $400,000. Now divide by 2 between 2 employees, making it $200,000. Now take out income tax, lets say its 30 cents in a dollar like in Aus. So that's $140,000. Now lets say it takes 3 years to develop your next game. Also take out a couple of thousand for buying up to date PC's for development and software. That's approx $45,000 per year.

That's not a bad income, but the industry carries a massive amount of risk vs reward, so if your product is a flop you'll be hurting. You could easily get a job earning the same amount without the headaches. I guess it depends on your passion for making your own games!

Finally, I will be buying the game since I would rather give my money to an indie developer that's making an effort even if it comes across as "charity" to others.

Me too, but only if the game is worth playing.

[tgb]

I'm thinking the costs involved in the development and marketng of World at War:A World Divided is about the same as Dom 3, except that it is a 3-person team, instead of 2. The niche market is about the same size, I would think, and just like Dom3/Dom2, the changes are incremental and not substantial. Yet look at Matrix's approach to pricing:

Retail price is $39.95. Better yet, if you own World at War, and order before the end of the year, you get a 35% discount. That gets the retail price down to about $25 for existing WaW owners. Good enough to change it from a wait-and-see to a first-day must buy for me, and many others, I'm sure.

I suspect the guys at Matrix have been watching the Shrapnel shitstorm, and taking away a couple of leasons learnt.

[Smoove_B]

WoW is reality TV?

~Neal

Or the fast-food of computer gaming. All of the MMORPGs are. This, I have learned after playing 3 or 4 of them. I honestly believe computer gaming would be completely different now if they'd never been developed.

It's not that they're bad...it's just that they use basic psychology to keep you hooked. And there's only so many hours in a day. When I look at the time I spent in MMORPGs, I can clearly see huge drops in play time / purchasing of other computer games.

[hitbyambulance]

Or the fast-food of computer gaming. All of the MMORPGs are. This, I have learned after playing 3 or 4 of them. I honestly believe computer gaming would be completely different now if they'd never been developed.

MMORPGS are just MUDs with pretty graphics. as MUDs have essentially been around since the dawn of computing, i think this is just a logical outcome of PC 'gaming' in general. (i myself debate if MMORPGs/MUDs are 'games' in the strictest sense of the word - aren't they actually chat rooms with bouts of buttonmashing? - but that's also another topic.) and i'm sure everyone that's been to college before the advent of MMORPGs knows of at least a few people who would sit up in front of their VT-100 terminal emulator at all hours, going about their never-ending and deathless business in an online text-only fantasy world. the social aspect and interaction is a very compelling reason for 'addiction'.

[Smoove_B]

Well, I guess that's sort of my point. Computer gamers, in general, have some type of gaming "gene" that compells us to play these types of games. Prior to the MUDs what did we have? Then the MUDs came along and a small group of gamers became addicted. Now with the visual MUDs, you've opened up your potential client base -- because they're so purty.

But when you get right down to it, they really are giant f-ing hamster wheels. Some are more elaborate than others, but none of them are designed to have an end -- because they you stop paying, I mean playing.

It's taking advantage of whatever it is that drives people to game -- and constantly moving that carrot out of reach. WoW has taken that to the next level and made the game appeal to both the hard core gamer and the casual n00b.

[Giles Habibula]

... cater to the masses, that's how you make a lot of money

Yep.
The quest for Money: The fastest way to make all things similar.
I agree that catering to the masses will net bigger profits.
But I don't think that's a good thing.
Unless a person worships Money uber alles.

edit: And hey, I've got nothing against the capitalist system. I just find it sad that so many are rooting and groveling in it.

All things in moderation, including capitalism.

[The Meal]

WoW is reality TV?

Or the fast-food of computer gaming.

"Fast-food" doesn't match up nearly as well with kEpOw's rant.

~Neal

[Meghan]

I can't believe this thread is two days old and PD hasn't posted about Manifesto yet.

Buatha have you heard of this? Briefly, Manifesto was founded by Greg Costikyan and Johnny Wilson in order to provide an alternate publishing plan to the one you describe in your OP. Manifesto believes that the current publishing & retail model is unsustainable as especially as the budgets get bigger and the teams get larger. Manifesto offers an an online distribution service for indie publishers, focusing on marketing and sales. They don't fund the game upfront. They help sell the game and handle the servers and stuff. They also offer forums and other online tools for promoting games.

Manifesto claims that a typical deal with them will provide 60% of revenues to the developer, the dev will retain all IP (rather than the publisher, as in a normal scenario) and rights to the game, and also, the deal's non-exclusive - the devs can sell the game directly from their site or in stores, whatever.

It seems to me that giving 60% is still pretty low but the real beauty in that offer is that the devs get to keep control of their creation. Can you imagine if Troika had something like this in place when they did Arcanum? That was a an incredible premise and game world, imo one of the best I've seen. But Sierra published it so Sierra owns all the rights to it and Sierra basically squats on it like the Toad of Doom. That was the typical way contracts worked when Arcanum was published and it's a crying shame.

Anyway it's too early to say if Manifesto will succeed but I think people are trying to find alternatives to the standard publishing scenario described above. I think Microsoft's XNA tools is potentially a huge deal for indie devs too, for example.

Here's Manifesto's main site -
http://manifestogames.com/

And here's Manifesto's Manifesto, Costikyan's explanation of the ideas behind it. It's a bit flowery but there's some good thought in it.
http://manifestogames.com/manifesto

[Ænima]

Manifesto is bullshit. Seriously, their terms aren't better than any other Indie publisher. With our games, Garage took 25% for the few copies they sold. Bigger portals take bigger chunks, but that's because they move a bunch of units. I believe the Steam take I heard was around 30%. And none of the Indie publisher I've talked to own IP. Not one. You own IP when you pay for development. No one does that. Not Manifesto either.

What would be amazing is if an Indie publisher actually moved some units. In my experience they "publish" your game on their website while a few sales trickle in. We sold ten games on our own site for every one sold on a portal. We never worked with anyone who wanted an exclusive though, so Shrapnel, Matrix, and Steam may do a lot better in that department.

The Scratchware Manifesto has been around a long time. A lot of Indies have been influenced by it. Until these guys do something, there is just nothing special about them.

Sorry if this is over the top, but I've gotten awfully sick of the Manifesto cheering when they haven't done anything that's even remotely interesting yet.

/rant off

[hitbyambulance]

But when you get right down to it, they really are giant f-ing hamster wheels.

and that's why i think that labeling most MMORPGs as 'games' may be debatable. the 'goals' - yeah, there are instanced quests, but to what end? in almost all of these (A Tale in the Desert comes to mind as the exception, but it's really not a traditional MMORPG anyways), they don't affect the game as a whole - they're not tied into the rest of the gameworld. and it is like a syndicated sitcom in there's no continuity. everyone else gets to play that quest over and over... and the 'challenge' ..? you die, you come back to life, with essentially no restriction. it's like playing arcade games with an unlimited amount of quarters - you can beat it eventually, as the challenge in a coin-op (and what they're designed for) is to get as far as you can on a limited amount of coins (traditionally, one) - when that's taken away, in my view, the fun factor decreases significantly to the point of asking 'what *is the point?'.

i think i'll just start a new thread with this.

[Buatha]

But when you get right down to it, they really are giant f-ing hamster wheels. Some are more elaborate than others, but none of them are designed to have an end -- because then you stop paying, I mean playing.

Okay, we're getting off topic a bit, but I must say that I agree with you. After playing EQ, AO, Jumpgate, DAoC, and Shadowbane, I pretty much could see the spinning hamster wheel once I reached WoW. Yes, it was stream-lined and had an elaborate world, but it still boiled down to go here, kill X creatures, and bring me Y remains for Z reward. After killing my 25th bat trying get some leathery bat wings, I didn't continue as this was the same thing I went through in every game before it, except they made the rewards better and didn't make you grind for 100 items to give you a crappy reward like in EQ I. It seems, though, that I'm in the minority on this one.

However, in television, don't they say that reality TV is what funds the more specialized shows? I don't see Blizzard trying bold, new titles now that they've been minting their own money with WoW.

P.S. If you see my sig, you already know my opinion on MMORPGs.

[Smoove_B]

Maybe I didn't connect the dots clearly -- but it seems as though we're all on the same page.

I was suggesting that indie games suffer because games that have a monthly fee are paying the bills right now. Who's going to invest in a game that will retail for $25, $35 or $50 when you can get $15 a month forever?

[Giles Habibula]

Who's going to invest in a game that will retail for $25, $35 or $50 when you can get $15 a month forever?

That thought has frightened me for years (and still does), in spite of the fact that those other games are still getting made.

[Rip]

There is a brief article in the latest PC Gamer (Dec 2006) about the whole graphics kill indie artists thing. They mention Garage Games and their software systems/engines that they hope can help give indie devs a chance to compete like they used to back in the old days. I haven't dug around their website much yet, but I did see the phrase "$100 indie dev licence".

http://www.garagegames.com/

Wow, I was checking out this site today and a search here brought me this.

The necromancer in me is thrilled.

Looks like they are still at it, although from what I have seen I can't think of much I could write with their tools that I would want to. I would love a toolset like that for more simulation type games.

[Daehawk]

Ive never understood the developer / publisher stuff. Ive always thought a developer should take care of it all..fund and make the game. The publisher should simply be someone the dev hires to promote the game though marketing and physically burn the game and get it out to retail.

I've always thought the publisher has WAY too much power over something they have no clue about.

[Blackhawk]

I've always thought the publisher has WAY too much power over something they have no clue about.

The publishers do have a clue. They have a clue about profits, about marketing, about business - the very things that many (or most) developers don't have a clue about.

[Buatha]

Good lord, I have no memory of ever starting this thread. I lament that the quality/quantity of my writing has degraded over time. Since I have to write so much email now, I only write more than what is generally necessary until I'm really excited about something.

Truthfully, I thought someone had hijacked my account until I saw the date.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, it was a nice thread necro. I enjoyed Kael's comment's the most -- in particular, his first sentence.

[Rip]

Glad I wasn't wrong in thinking this would be a great thread to use my resurection potion on. As soon as I stumbled on to it I couldn't resist thinking of something to say just so I could revive it.

Even more interesting is the way in which I found it, after electing to go back and look up some stuff about Front Page Sports Football, I wandered of into a bunch of Sierra stuff, which lead me to reading a bunch of Ken Williams stuff. In one of his somewhat old blog posts he linked the garagegames.com site. I searched here and the rest is history.

I also enjoyed reading a bunch of stuff about Ken and his wife cruising the globe for more than ten years. At least something good came from the Sierra suicide. Love his boat.

http://www.kensblog.com/

[Daehawk]

Ken and Roberta have been around forever it seems.

Ardeo Hot Tub Plan - April 13, 2006

I KNEW their boat would have a hot tub .....The other boat..the Seabird...has a strange stance to it.

[Rip]

Ken and Roberta have been around forever it seems.

Ardeo Hot Tub Plan - April 13, 2006

I KNEW their boat would have a hot tub .....The other boat..the Seabird...has a strange stance to it.

Yep, I read the entire FAQ on changes/additions he made and why. Good stuff.

They just seem like awesome people to be around.