Twilight Struggle

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El Guapo
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

From reading about TS online, there's a pretty widespread belief that the game is marginally tilted towards the Soviets, but not crazily so - I've been the U.S. win plenty of times, for example.

As for how to play the U.S., I usually start with 4 influence in W. Germany and 3 in Italy (to give a little extra protection against an immediate coup in Italy). IF the 1 U.S. influence in Iran survives (either the Soviets don't coup it right away, or the coup fails), then *immediately* spread from there into Asia, even if just a little, like 1 influence in Pakistan and 1 influence in Afghanistan. That makes a big difference, as it allows for an immediate, often difficult to dislodge U.S. presence in South Asia (and if you can get India and Pakistan first, that makes a big difference).

Otherwise, beyond spreading out of Iran, my first priority tends to be East Asia. If you have Korean War in your hand, immediately take control of South Korea. If not, I usually like to add 1 influence in South Korea (to guard against a straight influence takeover) and then focus on taking either Japan or Taiwan to protect against Korean War, before taking South Korea itself.

As for Europe, IF you keep control of Italy through the first turn, take Greece (protects Italy) and then France. Some people like to stay away from France altogether in the early war due to Du Gaulle, but I think the best approach is to first put 1 influence into it, then in one go up it to 4, possibly 5 to help keep control even if the Soviets use Du Gaulle as a headline. If you lose Italy due to a coup, it's probably best to focus on taking a lot of countries in Europe (starting with 2 stability ones like Greece, Turkey, and Spain) to prevent the Soviets from getting more countries than you and preventing domination that way.

As for the Middle East - honestly I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just focus on having at least presence, as domination isn't worth all that much. In particular I wouldn't worry about Israel all that much - yes, it's a battleground, but since again domination doesn't need all that many points, the 3 influence needed to take it (not even counting the influence needed to control its neighbors given the threat of Arab-Israeli War) is usually better spent elsewhere. I'd rather take Saudi Arabia, Jordan, or the Gulf States which tend to be easier to keep control of, and focus on other regions.
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El Guapo
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

Also Jow, if you want I'd be happy to play a game of TS with you via Vassal with me on the U.S. side.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Jow »

Europe: That's pretty much how I approached it. When the game ended I had a lockdown on the three W. European battlegrounds and had Greece as a buffer... Of course, the Europe scoring card came up precisely once all game. :)

Middle East: I always invest way too much effort there while forgetting the point bonus for domination will only end up being 3 or 4 (assuming a 1 or 2-battleground country advantage). Funny enough, I have no recollection what happened in Iran but I suspect as a new player he did NOT make a coup there his first action. Otherwise I think you're right - with the Soviets always getting first AR and able to guarantee themselves either a coup or realignment attempt in the ME based on the fact that Defcon can't start the round at 2 (with exceptions of course), it seems better for the U.S. to focus their efforts elsewhere.

Asia: This is where I was hurting the most, which is why I drew the scoring card twice. :) I solidified S. Korea, but aside of Japan and Australia I had nearly nothing anywhere else. Through careful play I managed to throw the scoring card both times with no net loss, but my buddy drawing SE Asia scoring was a dagger.

France/Degaulle: I prefer your approach, overstocking it so that Degaulle is relatively painless when it hits.


Vassal game: yeah, let's give it a shot. I suspect you'll run me over, but it should be fun. :)
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El Guapo
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

Thinking back - I'm not sure that I've ever had control of Israel at the end of any game I've played. I must have at least once I suppose, but yeah - rarely seems worth the investment of IP, especially if you are a pre-Camp David U.S. player.

I'll shoot you a PM re: Vassal.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Holman »

I'd be up for some Twilight Struggle via VASSAL if anyone's interested. I love the rules, but I've only played the game solitaire.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

Sounds good. I have a Vassal game with Jow tentatively scheduled for this weekend, but maybe next weekend or the weekend after.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Holman »

El Guapo wrote:Sounds good. I have a Vassal game with Jow tentatively scheduled for this weekend, but maybe next weekend or the weekend after.
Great! Let's check in here next week and see what's a good time for a weekend.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

Holman and I played this evening - I was the USSR, he was the U.S. Ended with a Soviet victory in turn 7 (late war) with the following map:

Image

There were two big things early on. First, and mainly, I hit Iran with a strength 4 coup right away and rolled a 6, which left me with 5 influence in Iran which was pretty close to untouchable (and did hold for the rest of the game). That let me sweep across south asia right away and gave me a stranglehold on Asia that lasted the whole game. Especially when he played Korean War and the North won, giving me control of South Korea. In hindsight, I'd recommend that the U.S. do the following when the USSR successfully coups Iran early on. If you can't realistically counter-coup in Iran (as here): (1) wait and see if the USSR moves into Pakistan while defcon is still at 4+; if yes, immediately coup Pakistan (as if you are successful that gives you central Asia); (2) if not, or if the Pakistan coup fails, *immediately* make a bee line to Thailand from Australia - you can win an influence footrace there, and if the U.S. can keep South Korea, Japan, and Thailand then they can prevent the USSR from dominating Asia even if they get both India and Pakistan.

The second main thing was that I drew De Gaulle Leads France to start turn 3 (IIRC), and headlined that, allowing me to take France and dominate Europe. That was pretty key, especially as I was able to spread into Spain and help secure France that way (and make sure that I had enough countries total to dominate Europe).

South America was interesting as well. During the mid-war I headlined Cambridge Five, and he had South America scoring. That was a big break, as it allowed me to break into South America easily - I put 1 into Chile, and spread from there into Peru and Argentina; while he countered with OAS founded to take Brazil, I immediately launched a strength 4 coup there to give me control of it. He did manage to fight me to a draw there that turn in terms of total countries, though, so that the scoring card was not a big swing.

Really is a very fun game, and I had a great time.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Holman »

Thank you for the post and the analysis, El Guapo! But you left out several other boneheaded maneuvers I made. I'm just surprised I made it as far as Jimmy Carter. I had a great time!

This is a terrific game, and there's a lot to learn before you can call yourself a decent player. I'm 3 wins to 7 losses against human players, so anybody who wants an easy win should drop me a line. I might even improve!
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Jow »

Nice game guys. First thing I noticed is that you both averaged almost a space race jump per turn... Can I have someone else roll my dice for me? Please? :) I'm actually on a streak where I've made a total of one successful space race roll in 3 games. Not that the Space Race is THAT big of a deal, but when your opponent is 4-5 slots ahead of you, forcing you to reveal your headline first, and capable of dumping 2 cards a turn it gets pretty annoying.

re: Asia: after our game, one of the things you noted was that I delayed moving into Western Asia... but one of the reasons I didn't was something you mentioned here: moving in too early would have given you potential coup attempts against targets I really didn't need that badly at the time. The other was based on memory of the cards: as far as I can remember, without driving up from Australia and assuming the first-turn loss of Iran, the U.S. really doesn't any other way of getting into Western Asia. Also, considering I was already dominating Asia with control of both Thailand and South Korea, there just didn't seem to be any upside in pounding out those additional countries, especially when ops were at such a premium everywhere else on the map.

I assume the largest chunk of your points came from multiple Asia scorings?
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

Actually Asia didn't score all that much - maybe only once after I opened my big lead there. Though Holman dumped a couple scoring cards with "Ask Not...". I'm not sure which ones, but I suspect that included Asia. Though I did manage to get like 8 or 9 points from one scoring there.

That's why if you're the USSR you don't move into western Asia (read: Pakistan) following the Iranian coup until Defcon is at 3 or lower. So, if you (the USSR) successfully coup Iran, and the U.S. does not launch a battleground coup in response, you then immediately coup a battleground to reduce Defcon to 3, and then move into Pakistan. Basically, wait until Defcon is 3 or lower to move in, but don't leave year 1 without control of Pakistan at least (again, assuming the Iranian coup goes your way).

My main point in the AAR re: Asia is that the U.S. can survive losing India and Pakistan if it can hold South Korea. If so, it can get to Thailand first, and holding South Korea - Japan - Thailand bars the USSR from dominating Asia. So if you're the U.S., if you lose Iran (probable), you immediately shore up South Korea while you wait the USSR's next Asian move. If the USSR stupidly moves into Pakistan at Defcon 4, you coup. If they don't, you then nab Thailand (and they won't be able to counter-coup since Defcon is 3 or lower).
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Holman »

I was spacing everything I could because I kept getting hands full of red stars. I think I spaced "Muslim Revolution" twice.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by NickAragua »

Holman wrote:I was spacing everything I could because I kept getting hands full of red stars. I think I spaced "Muslim Revolution" twice.
(One of) my main weaknesses in that game (and its brother, 1989: Dawn of Freedom) is that I'm really tempted a lot of the time to play "friendly" one-time-use cards as events. While they have decent effects, it's a) often not quite exactly what you need and b) takes the card out of circulation permanently, which increases your odds of drawing opposing cards and your opponent's odds of drawing friendly cards. What you really want to do most of the time is play those cards for ops instead and target areas where you a) have scoring cards and b) think your opponent has scoring cards.

Disclaimer: I've won only one out of many, many games of this.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

Also, Muslim Revolution is probably not the event you want to space. You're probably better of playing it, since it gets you 4 ops (which is nothing to sneeze at), and I tend to think that the U.S. is best off just hanging by a thread in the middle east anyways while focusing elsewhere.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Zarathud »

The beauty of TS is deciding when to take a bad event to make progress where you need it and balancing the benefits of a favorable event against its ops value.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by hepcat »

The nice thing about TS's follow up 1989 is that it slowly forces focus towards other areas as the game progresses by removing scoring cards for countries that are lost by an excessive amount. Two games in and I love that...although I still have the urge to play TS.
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Holman
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Holman »

El Guapo wrote:Also, Muslim Revolution is probably not the event you want to space. You're probably better of playing it, since it gets you 4 ops (which is nothing to sneeze at), and I tend to think that the U.S. is best off just hanging by a thread in the middle east anyways while focusing elsewhere.
Ah, but IIRC, the MIddle East was one of the few places I was holding on (at least at the time).

BTW, has anyone spent any time with "Labyrinth: The War of Terror"?
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

Holman wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Also, Muslim Revolution is probably not the event you want to space. You're probably better of playing it, since it gets you 4 ops (which is nothing to sneeze at), and I tend to think that the U.S. is best off just hanging by a thread in the middle east anyways while focusing elsewhere.
Ah, but IIRC, the MIddle East was one of the few places I was holding on (at least at the time).

BTW, has anyone spent any time with "Labyrinth: The War of Terror"?
Yeah, I'm more saying that in general the U.S. is better off spending its influence outside of the Middle East. I suppose it's true that given substantial investment in the Mid-East muslim revolution might be a good space candidate.

As for Labyrinth, awhile back NickAragua and I tried to check it out via Vassal, but we got horribly confused and wound up just playing TS instead. My general understanding via teh intarwebs in that this isn't unusual (that the rules are complex and confusing - labyrinthine, if you will), but that once you get through that the game is apparently pretty good.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by hepcat »

I have Labyrinth and I can attest to the confusing rules set. The problem is that the sides are VERY asymmetrical. You're essentially playing by two different sets of rules when in a two player game. That makes entry into the game a little more difficult.

That being said, I refuse to sell it at a con auction like I do with most games I don't end up playing because it has solo rules and I still think it's an interesting concept.

The designer of Labyrinth has a follow up game with a similar setting that just made the P500 list. It's called Distant Plains and it apparently has solo rules as well.
Last edited by hepcat on Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Jow »

Labyrinth intrigued me enough that I printed out the rules to check it out, but I haven't been able to justify picking it up because other games of its ilk (Twilight Struggle) that I own aren't seeing play very often. Someday...
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Jow »

I set up another game of this with me as the U.S. for my second time ever against another guy learning the game for the first time. We only managed to get through the first two turns before we had to leave it for other things, but I left it set up for the next time he comes out.

I still have a really hard time figuring out how best to proceed as the U.S. Based on previous plays, it's more obvious now that the U.S. is really just trying to tread water in the early game, but how and where to do that are the issues. In this game, I drew DeGaulle and Blockade on turn 1, so in my initial setup i left France and Germany empty, intending to headline Blockade (with nothing better in my hand to headline) and follow up with DeGaulle on AR#1, using the subsequent turns to establish W. Germany and France before moving onto other things. My buddy headlined the Korean War and won, knocking me out of S. Korea before the first AR... but leaving Iran intact. Knowing the Middle East to be a quicksand for the U.S. early, I chose to ignore it and shore up S. Korea before moving back to Europe. As expected, iran eventually fell, though later than I expected. At the end of turn 2, situation is this:

Europe: I've got a firm grip on control, with W. Germany/France/Italy secured and +1 country overall vs. E. Germany/Poland.
Middle East: solidly Soviet. I've got one influence remaining in Israel and one (fortuitously-placed) influence in Lebanon which earned me presence when the M.E. was scored.
Asia: rather solidly Soviet, with Afghanistan/Pakistan/India/N. Korea vs. Taiwan (Formosan Rev.)/S. Korea and my starting influence in Japan and Australia.

Overall I'm one VP down. Of the two Soviet nasties Decol and Destal, Decol was space-raced in turn 2 and Destal has yet to appear. I feel like I've done a pretty good job holding on, but without ever seeing an entire game through turn 10 I just don't have a good feel for it at all. Regardless, I'm feeling like my next priority in turn 3 needs to be racing like the wind for the nickel-and-dime countries Taiwan before Asia becomes a permanent loss...
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Re: Twilight Struggle

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Jow wrote:I set up another game of this with me as the U.S. for my second time ever against another guy learning the game for the first time. We only managed to get through the first two turns before we had to leave it for other things, but I left it set up for the next time he comes out.

I still have a really hard time figuring out how best to proceed as the U.S. Based on previous plays, it's more obvious now that the U.S. is really just trying to tread water in the early game, but how and where to do that are the issues. In this game, I drew DeGaulle and Blockade on turn 1, so in my initial setup i left France and Germany empty, intending to headline Blockade (with nothing better in my hand to headline) and follow up with DeGaulle on AR#1, using the subsequent turns to establish W. Germany and France before moving onto other things. My buddy headlined the Korean War and won, knocking me out of S. Korea before the first AR... but leaving Iran intact. Knowing the Middle East to be a quicksand for the U.S. early, I chose to ignore it and shore up S. Korea before moving back to Europe. As expected, iran eventually fell, though later than I expected. At the end of turn 2, situation is this:

Europe: I've got a firm grip on control, with W. Germany/France/Italy secured and +1 country overall vs. E. Germany/Poland.
Middle East: solidly Soviet. I've got one influence remaining in Israel and one (fortuitously-placed) influence in Lebanon which earned me presence when the M.E. was scored.
Asia: rather solidly Soviet, with Afghanistan/Pakistan/India/N. Korea vs. Taiwan (Formosan Rev.)/S. Korea and my starting influence in Japan and Australia.

Overall I'm one VP down. Of the two Soviet nasties Decol and Destal, Decol was space-raced in turn 2 and Destal has yet to appear. I feel like I've done a pretty good job holding on, but without ever seeing an entire game through turn 10 I just don't have a good feel for it at all. Regardless, I'm feeling like my next priority in turn 3 needs to be racing like the wind for the nickel-and-dime countries Taiwan before Asia becomes a permanent loss...
With that opening hand / start, I'd recommend: immediately (and I mean first card) spread out from Iran to Pakistan / Afghanistan to get a foothold in Asia. If you have a four point card in hand, play it for ops and do something like: add 1 in each of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and add two to South Korea (which it sounds like would've been at 1 soviet influence post-war). Immediate priority would be Asia (locking up India-Pakistan, hopefully holding onto South Korea). Second priority would be Europe - having drawn De Gaulle I'd take control of France (should have Italy from the starting influence), and then hold onto the card until turn 3 (since the deck will shuffle at the end of turn 2) and then space race him on turn 3, at which point he should be in the deck for awhile.

From where you are now, I'd agree that your first priority is to if possible deny him domination in Asia by taking control of at least as many total countries as he does. In particular, if he does not already control Burma, prioritize that, as then you may luck into stealing India if you draw Indo-Pakistani war. Bear in mind that Decolonization is going to be back in the deck immediately since the deck shuffles at the end of turn 2, so it could show up as soon as next turn.

Other priorities are moving into South America to get into good position for when that scoring card enters the deck on turn 4 (and for scoring well on Alliance for Progress). Central America and Africa too, but South America's more important since it's more points and harder to dislodge you from there.

In the Mid-East just focus on maintaining at least presence and on stealing OPEC countries from him where possible.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Jow »

El Guapo wrote:With that opening hand / start, I'd recommend: immediately (and I mean first card) spread out from Iran to Pakistan / Afghanistan to get a foothold in Asia. If you have a four point card in hand, play it for ops and do something like: add 1 in each of Afghanistan and Pakistan, and add two to South Korea (which it sounds like would've been at 1 soviet influence post-war). Immediate priority would be Asia (locking up India-Pakistan, hopefully holding onto South Korea). Second priority would be Europe - having drawn De Gaulle I'd take control of France (should have Italy from the starting influence), and then hold onto the card until turn 3 (since the deck will shuffle at the end of turn 2) and then space race him on turn 3, at which point he should be in the deck for awhile.
That's what I was afraid of. :) My first thought was to break into Asia immediately, but fear of losing S. Korea permastyle won out. Trouble was, I think I had *one* four-point card in my hand over the first two turns and none in the first turn. Interesting thoughts on DeGaulle - my reasoning for what I did was to get it out of the game at a point where it'd hurt me the least (empty France). Risky perhaps as a savvy USSR guy might have jumped hard into France, maybe?
El Guapo wrote:From where you are now, I'd agree that your first priority is to if possible deny him domination in Asia by taking control of at least as many total countries as he does. In particular, if he does not already control Burma, prioritize that, as then you may luck into stealing India if you draw Indo-Pakistani war. Bear in mind that Decolonization is going to be back in the deck immediately since the deck shuffles at the end of turn 2, so it could show up as soon as next turn.
Indo: Drew first turn, dumped for ops. One can only hope. Decol: I'm only too aware. :/ With some crappy cards left at the end of turn 2 i chose to space race it and failed (what is it with my inability to roll a 1-4 on these?)... My biggest concern is Vietnam Revolts (which also hasn't come up) landing in his hands and giving him the shorter route to Thailand...

Thanks for the tips. Might be a couple of weeks before we can resume but I'll post how it goes.
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

The thing is that India-Pakistan is more important than South Korea. If you get India and Pakistan, you'll dominate Asia, since India + Pakistan + Japan (it's essentially impossible to lose Japan as the U.S.) > North + South Korea. Similarly, if you take South Korea but lose India and Pakistan, you won't dominate Asia, since North Korea + India + Pakistan > South Korea + Japan.

So losing South Korea to gain India and Pakistan is a trade that the U.S. should absolutely make. Though obviously it's ideal to take them and South Korea. :)
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by Jow »

Been browsing this site - lots of good info, but especially this link:

http://twilightstrategy.com/2011/12/12/ ... gy-turn-1/" target="_blank

interesting they're advocating hopping into Colombia at the end of turn 1...
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Re: Twilight Struggle

Post by El Guapo »

They don't say why, though (re: Colombia). I mean, it's not a bad idea in the early war if you have an op to spare, as the USSR is likely to be busy so you may be able to get through to Venezuela without drawing a coup. But I dunno, the U.S. is likely to be busy to. Anyhow, something to bear in mind I guess.
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