Up Front - Kickstarter

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MonkeyFinger
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Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by MonkeyFinger »

Up Front has just started up their KS campaign and already blown through several stretch goals. I loved this game back in the day and still have all of my original copies but still considering backing this, just need to find out how it differs from the original...
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by hentzau »

I'd be all over this, but:

A) Tommy has a copy of the game and we've never played it.

B) The whole kerfuffle about Valley Games getting sued by some guy that apparently loaned them a large sum of money that was never paid back. This is concerning me on a couple of fronts, as I've backed both Airborne in your Pocket and D-Day Dice at the Line for Life level. So if Valley Games gets sued out of existence, the KS money for Up Front as well as any future products for DDD and AIYP disappear.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by MonkeyFinger »

I know, I saw the whole kerfluffle in the first pages of comments. Rik has stated repeatedly that Valley Games (being sued) and Radiant Games (doing the Kickstarter) are not connected. A couple of examples:
IF there was risk to this project, it would have been specified in the risks section. Since there is no risk to Radiant Gaming, it was not put there. Radiant Darkstart Productions (the full name under which all Kickstarts are run by us) is the mother company who brought you D-Day Dice and Airborne In Your Pocket. D-Day Dice simply had a Valley Games logo on the boxes for brand recognition on the shelves in the store.
I have said that already but will say it again. THE FUNDS FOR THE KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN ARE GOING TO BE COMPLETELY OUT OF THE REACH OF VALLEY GAMES AND ITS PARTNERS. They are different companies under different ownership.

UP FRONT has been funded and will be released. Now, it's just a matter of who wants the game WITH all stretch rewards as opposed to just the base game next year from their usual source and then wait while all the expansions trickle into the market.
I guess we'll see...
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

The UF Kickstarter is doing great (I'm diving in now), with all kinds of stretch goals already met. Players who back the KS will be receiving a huge amount of bonus game material for free. Really, the stretch goal reward sets dwarf the base game you're actually buying.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Chaz »

How many of the stretch goals will be usable if you just get the ase game? I'd like to get more units to use, but $20 each is more than I rally want to spend.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

Chaz wrote:How many of the stretch goals will be usable if you just get the ase game? I'd like to get more units to use, but $20 each is more than I rally want to spend.
Well, those USMC cards won't mean much if you don't later buy the Japanese, and the free Canadian soldiers won't be useful without the weapons that come with the Brits, but there's a huge amount of stuff. The Axis minors should be usable with their own included weapons or with German stuff.

To make use of the stretch goals, I'd say a player would at least want the base game plus the Soviets for $60.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

Possibly very bad news, pr possibly not, for Kickstarter Up Front.

This is from page 12 of the linked discussion:
One of the creditors of Valley Games has accused the company of creating a proxy company (Radiant Games) [which is the publisher of the new Up Front] in order to shield their assets away from the creditors. Based on what I've read, there seems to be a lot of weight to the accusation; Valley Games was having financial problems and suddenly a new company emerges, which now owns the assets of Valley Games, and being operated by the same people.

Anyway, during the beginning of the Up Front campaign, one of those creditors commented on the potential litigation. And based on the 330k pledge on kickstarter, the board-gaming community dismissed those concerns... even though VG relationship with its creditors was temperamental at best and the existence of Radiant Games was highly suspicious.

Recently, one of the creditors has initiated legal claims against Valley Games and Radiant Games, in order to take the assets owed to him. It would seems that the creditor has at least put a hold on many of Radiant Games assets, meaning that nothing will be produced until the courts have settle the case. And based on what others' interpretations, Valley Games has done a poor job defending themselves in this case. And if the courts side with the creditor, the money for the Up Front campaign may disappear to creditors and legal fines. Thus, not only do kickstarter backers have the potential of never receiving their product.... the assets of the game may be held by another entity which has no desire to reprint the game.

This, of course, has large implications for kickstarter and other boardgame campaigns on kickstarter. Especially because of the size of the campaign.
This may be the biggest KS Fail in history--not because they didn't make their target, but because they'll have to give the raised money to someone else in a legal settlement.

The facts and implications of the whole situation are still in dispute. I hope the game gets made, and not just because I backed it.

It's worth noting that "We owe a quarter million dollars to a third party for the product you are backing" was not listed as one of the risks on Kickstarter.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Smoove_B »

Wow. Thanks for posting that. I'm no lawyer, but that doesn't sound good.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by $iljanus »

I backed Airborne In Your Pocket and I'm hoping it won't be collateral damage in this mess.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by hentzau »

Yeah. I've got a lot of money tied up in this right now...Line for Life backer of D-Day Dice, Line for Life backer of Airborne in Your Pocket, and a Master Sergeant backer of Up Front. I could lose a lot of money in this process.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

I also splurged and went Master Sergeant ($125) for Up Front. It was my Christmas present to myself.

This could still work out. The basic Kickstarter goal (before all the stretch goal expansions) was only $30,000 to fund the project, and it raised almost $340,000. Even if something like $250,000 is owed, that leaves almost $100,000 for Up Front. If the D-Day and Airborne IYP money is also involved, that further cushions the damage.

But I am prone to optimism and, later, disappointment.

EDIT: The problem with the above is that reducing the available funding doesn't reduce the number of backers who need to be supplied with games. You can't supply the game and stretch goals to 2,500 people with the funding gutted like that.

Math is inconvenient.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Smoove_B »

Is there anyone that can explain in English what the status of this is? I tried reading the 90+ page thread on BGG and my eyes went cross. I understand there's a ton of speculation, but with all the lawsuits and whatnot going on it's hard to figure out what the actual situation is versus what people are guessing.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

Smoove_B wrote:Is there anyone that can explain in English what the status of this is? I tried reading the 90+ page thread on BGG and my eyes went cross. I understand there's a ton of speculation, but with all the lawsuits and whatnot going on it's hard to figure out what the actual situation is versus what people are guessing.
Short answer: it's 90 pages of no one really knowing anything.

From the outside, the project appears to be going forward. Artists are producing art, layouts are being previewed, a new draft of the rules is out in beta, etc. If it weren't for the financial shadow hanging over everything, Up Front would look like a successful Kickstarter moving towards production and delivery.

I'm not very optimistic, but it's still possible that the person owed all the money will agree to a deal to be repaid later (with interest) rather than immediately. This would allow games to be produced and sold. I don't know if that would generate enough funds to balance it all out.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Smoove_B »

I think that's why I was confused. I'm getting the artist updates, but in trying to decipher the legal documents on BGG (and subsequent discussion), I was then thinking it was all going to amount to nothing. Thanks.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

I have no real news, just that the drama continues.

Over at BGG, the original "What does this mean for UP FRONT?" thread (gamers debating and speculating on the legal facts of the case) was locked at 135 pages. The successor thread is now at about 150 pages.

The developer continues to post artwork in progress and declares that the game will be out this fall. Thread-dwellers are parsing public documents from the legal maneuvering between the parties.

I'd love to get this game, but I want to see an ethical outcome first. I suspect that those of us who backed the KS may wind up losing our investments.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Smoove_B »

Holman wrote: I suspect that those of us who backed the KS may wind up losing our investments.
I am surprised someone (and I really have no idea who would) hasn't written an investigative piece on this. Maybe because it's board gaming and not a computer game there isn't as much interest? Maybe because only 2400 backers are impacted? I have no idea, but this seemingly has the potential to serve as an example of why people shouldn't back projects.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

Smoove_B wrote:
Holman wrote: I suspect that those of us who backed the KS may wind up losing our investments.
I am surprised someone (and I really have no idea who would) hasn't written an investigative piece on this. Maybe because it's board gaming and not a computer game there isn't as much interest? Maybe because only 2400 backers are impacted? I have no idea, but this seemingly has the potential to serve as an example of why people shouldn't back projects.
I'll be surprised if someone (some game blogger, at least) doesn't dig into it when it's all over. Right now the only people who know anything--on both sides--are keeping quiet. The new developer is talking like there's no problem and saying everything will be delivered. The party to which the money is owed is saying nothing at all, presumably on the advice of his lawyers.

Debating the case in those BGG threads has become a game in itself, but it's all just speculation based on whatever gets released from the court case(s).
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Smoove_B »

So I guess the Texas judge ordered the Up Front Kickstarter money to be released to Radiant, which one would presume is the reason a bunch of emails regarding the game going to print came out yesterday, right?

However the original issue of money owed to a loan backer by Valley Games (publishers of D-Day Dice) and the idea that Radiant is just a shell company set up to sidestep the money owed is still up for legal review. In quickly reading through the BGG discussion, there is a theory that if Radiant can now "hurry up" and spend all the money for production and meeting the Kickstarter obligations, there won't be enough time for a judgement to take place and the Valley Games loan obligations paid first. I suppose that hinges on whether or not Radiant really was set up to avoid paying out debt, though I have to say from reading up on all this (and trying to comprehend what happened) it really does sound like a shell game was being played.

What a mess.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

If anyone is still following this saga, it just got more depressing.

I'm not competent to link or interpret the legal docs--there's a 344+ page thread at BGG devoted to that hobby--but the company supposedly producing the new Up Front has just lost its license to do business.

Also, it appears that the person who collected the $340,000 in Kickstarter money has moved from the U.S. to Australia.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, I've been reading through the latest updates and all signs point to D-Day Dice, UpFront and Airborne in Your Pocket being completely DOA. What I hadn't known when I backed UpFront was the shenanigans going on with AiYP and the lawsuit that started it all. Who would have thought a company being sued for loans could successfully launch a new Kickstarter project. But I guess that was part of the deception - knowing full well how badly people wanted an UpFront remake...

The fact that Rik just moved to Australia is sketchy as hell.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by hentzau »

Well, there goes $415 I'll never see back.

(Well,I did get a bunch of stuff for D-Day Dice. I just won't get the benefit of my Line for Life. So I'll subtract a good $80 from that total for what I did receive.)
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Chaz »

That's a whole mess of crappy. Just another reason that I don't back kickstarters as a general rule.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by LordMortis »

Chaz wrote:That's a whole mess of crappy. Just another reason that I don't back kickstarters as a general rule.

I don't think I've backed anything I haven't had some expectation of success from. I am likely to back Pairs but Cheapass has been around a long time, James Ernest is friends with a number of people I've gamed with, and I had dinner with him once at a GenCon.

I don't see me ever supporting something on KS where I don't have at least some sort of trust prebuilt into the project creator.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by $iljanus »

Sigh, all I wanted was Airborne In Your Pocket thinking that was the more likely game to be released.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by MonkeyFinger »

$195 more than likely down the toilet for me with the two projects. At least I got a crap-ton of D-Day Dice stuff.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Gato »

LordMortis wrote:I don't see me ever supporting something on KS where I don't have at least some sort of trust prebuilt into the project creator.
Good point , but how do you build that thrust. In this case Rik had already ran a successful KS campaign with DDD, that was good enough for me at the time.

My only hope for this now is that Phil wins his court case and decide to honor the KS funding by by producing it and delivering it to the backers. Keeping all future profit from sales for him.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by hentzau »

Gato wrote:
LordMortis wrote:I don't see me ever supporting something on KS where I don't have at least some sort of trust prebuilt into the project creator.
Good point , but how do you build that thrust. In this case Rik had already ran a successful KS campaign with DDD, that was good enough for me at the time.

My only hope for this now is that Phil wins his court case and decide to honor the KS funding by by producing it and delivering it to the backers. Keeping all future profit from sales for him.
I find that very doubtful. With the length of time that this has gone on, I would imagine most of the money is going to be chewed up in lawyers fees. It will be a victory for Phil, but a hollow one. But it would be nice if a miracle would happen.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

Happy 2nd anniversary to my $125 Kickstarter pledge for Up Front!!

:cry:
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by hentzau »

Thanks Holman, for that depressing reminder.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Smoove_B »

I'm telling you..options are available. I think Hentzau said he had cards squirreled away somewhere but if you're like me and got soaked on the Kickstarter, my buddy over on BGG updated a fan update that started before the Kickstarter and managed to print out card decks and have them shipped relatively cheap. Yes, you have to spend more money, but you can play an updated version of the game and not give another penny to Rik or the clowns associated with this project. We played a few games and I was pretty impressed. Send me a PM for more info if you want it.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

Thanks, Smoove. I might take you up on that eventually.

Today, though... today is for remembering what should have been.

:x
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

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:cry:
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by hentzau »

Just announced a settlement over on BGG. Apparently Phil gets $135K, the rest is being held by the court.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Smoove_B »

So....the court will be mailing me decks of cards? This legal stuff is all very confusing.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by MonkeyFinger »

hentzau wrote:Just announced a settlement over on BGG. Apparently Phil gets $135K, the rest is being held by the court.
Link? Poked around but could not find.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by hentzau »

MonkeyFinger wrote:
hentzau wrote:Just announced a settlement over on BGG. Apparently Phil gets $135K, the rest is being held by the court.
Link? Poked around but could not find.
BGG Link
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Holman »

Smoove_B wrote:So....the court will be mailing me decks of cards?
Close. The law firms will put us all on their Christmas card lists.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by MonkeyFinger »

hentzau wrote:
MonkeyFinger wrote:
hentzau wrote:Just announced a settlement over on BGG. Apparently Phil gets $135K, the rest is being held by the court.
Link? Poked around but could not find.
BGG Link
Thanks.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by hentzau »

And just got this little note:
Rik Falch wrote:Hello All,
We have finally concluded the lawsuit with Phil Sauer, this has left our company depleted of all resources as most would understand happens from lawsuits.

We were unable to post status updates during that time and now that the case has been dismissed, we can speak to the future of Up Front.

We are trying to find some help from some other publishers to complete this project and move forward. There is interest and we are working to sort out the details but nothing has been agreed to.

Your understanding during this time while we try to get this completed will be appreciated. Once we have solidified a deal, there will be an announcement. We appreciate these folks listening to our plea and we are hopeful to come to an arrangement as quickly as possible.

Our biggest concern is that the supporters of this project can see the finished product.

Best Regards
Meaning, don't hold your breath.
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Re: Up Front - Kickstarter

Post by Chaz »

hentzau wrote: Meaning, don't hold your breath.
I feel like this should be the official slogan of Kickstarter. ;)
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