[Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Fishbelly » Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:30 am

I know folks here were burned by the bad Kickstarter experience and that might color their perception, but I would like to ask how everyone feels about the actual gameplay now that it has been out for some time. I could not afford the game when it was kickstarted, and I have always regretted not picking it up. Does the gameplay hold up?

I know there are complaints about too much randomness/dice rolling at the BGG forums. I own and have played other Flying Frog games such as A Touch of Evil, Conquest of Planet Earth, and Last Night on Earth. Are the complaints similar to these other games, or is it worse?

The theme of Brimstone looks right up my alley, and I have been searching for years for a dungeon crawl type game with theme, character development, and campaign elements. Good solo play is also quite important. I tried Descent, the D&D games, and others but none have really scratched that itch.

If the gameplay and random elements are similar to the aforementioned games, I am fine with that and will consider picking up the base games. If it is markedly worse, I'd prefer to save my money for other games, as I already have too many I never play.

Thoughts? Recommendations? Any input would be appreciated.

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hentzau » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:18 pm

I love SoB. We had a ton of fun when we were playing, but we stopped because I was assuming (stupidly, I'll admit) that the expansions were right around the corner for it and I didn't want to get burnt out on the game before those came out. So it now sits in its boxes waiting for...who knows how long.

Yes, it has luck. Tons of it. But I'm OK with that in my games if they tell an entertaining story. There are some balance issues. Some characters appear to be stronger and easier to advance than others. And, there is the assembly problem with the minis.

ButI do recommend the game, especially if you can get it on sale through the FF sale. If you get it and pick up the Frontier Town supplement with it, please let us know what you think. Cause we're still waiting. :)
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by baelthazar » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:51 pm

I agree with Hentzau. The mini assembly is terrible - the minis are detailed but very light weight, and the assembly requires some small and awkward pieces to be glued together. Do not expect to play the game the first few days after you get it.

The gameplay itself is very good and it tells a fun story. Nothing like your pistol dueling hero coming across an alien pistol and using it to take out the massive boss (using d8s). Or the desperado who saves the day by chucking dynamite that bounces in the right (or wrong) way for a victory (or disaster). Even losing feels fun because you end up with mutations and wounds that continue to tell the story.

That being said, the rules are cumbersome. Like all Flying Frog titles, there is a lot of minutia to remember and the rules are not (IMHO) organized in a way to help you remember them. You will want to find or make a reference sheet (stuff like how many items you can hold, how to stock a room with spawned monsters, etc.). The game also is lengthy and takes a huge table to play (I have a decent sized dining room table that seats eight and it still seems to small).

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by baelthazar » Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:53 pm

Addendum, I would say the rules are not as cumbersome as Fortune and Glory, similar in level to A Touch of Evil, and more cumbersome than Last Night on Earth.

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by TheMix » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:05 pm

I really like the game. It is probably my most played game (if we count TableTop Simulator). I've played it enough now that I don't refer to the rules much. I find that it is actually pretty easy to teach new players, since they don't need to know all the little rules.

My friend and I have introduced some "house rules" to improve on the campaign experience.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by TheMix » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:11 pm

Hmmm... On a whim I took another look at the TTS Workshop for SoB. Someone added a bunch of the 1.5 items. Looks like I'll have to update my version of the SoB mod.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Fishbelly » Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:19 pm

I appreciate the responses, and I think I'll have to give this game a try. I guess I'll see if folks are trying to trade away their copies at BGG before I rush out and buy stuff. Thanks again for the info everyone.

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by TheMix » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:30 am

If you have TableTop Simulator, I'd be happy to run a mission for you to give you a preview.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Fishbelly » Mon Jul 04, 2016 10:32 am

TheMix wrote:If you have TableTop Simulator, I'd be happy to run a mission for you to give you a preview.
I appreciate the offer, but I do not have Tabletop Simulator. It looks so clunky, so I have always avoided it. :oops:

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by TheMix » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:15 pm

It's not that bad. You get used to it pretty quickly. There are some things that can be a bit troublesome (like fitting the tiles together neatly), but overall it's pretty easy to use. Moving around the "table" is pretty easy. Grabbing, dropping, rolling, etc. are pretty straightforward. I usually suggest starting with an easy game that doesn't have a lot of tricky actions - to get used to the movement.

Plus, they are still continuing to add new functionality on a regular basis.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hepcat » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:24 am

Shadows of Brimstone is one of my favorite co ops. The only thing I don't like about it is that sometimes the encounter and movement mechanics can force people into bottle necking in doors. But I believe there's some variants that address this on BGG.

I look forward to getting the rest of my sets so I can either restart or continue a campaign. I hope they allow us to pick some of the stuff up at Gencon, although I doubt they will.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hentzau » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:28 am

If they would allow a gencon pickup that would go a little ways towards salving the wounds I feel from this campaign.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by TheMix » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:57 pm

I spent a bunch of time last night tweaking my "template" version on TTS. Some uploaded a bunch of the new content as mods (Serpentmen, Masters of the Void, Guardians, etc.). I cleaned up my template to have a nice "clean" merged version, and then added in the new content. Looking forward to trying it out.

I can try to figure out how to send it, if anyone is interested. However, it does require you to load all the characters, tiles, and monsters into the Chest.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hentzau » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:52 am

Well, I guess I can pick up some stuff at GenCon...
Option #1 Big Box of Stuff - We can process your Pledge in advance and ship it to Gen Con for an in-person Pick Up. It will include everything that we have ready up to this point. You must pre-register for this in advance of Gen Con and we will need to charge a $20 registration fee (for shipping and handling). This pre-registration will close on July 25th or when we run out of the limited slots available (about 100 backers). At the time of pick up, you will have the option to purchase missing enemies to complete your OtherWorld:Trederra Expansion and Flesh Stalker and Flesh Drones Deluxe Enemy Pack.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by baelthazar » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:53 am

I think that $20 "registration fee" really just pisses me off more.

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hentzau » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:54 am

baelthazar wrote:I think that $20 "registration fee" really just pisses me off more.
Yeah, I'm in the same frame of mind right now.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by TheMix » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:32 am

What a bunch of assholes. :evil:
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Zarathud » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:26 am

What do they have ready? They're really not helping.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by baelthazar » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:50 am

Zarathud wrote:What do they have ready? They're really not helping.
I think that is their intent.

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by TheMix » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:31 pm

Just read through the "update". Did not change my assessment at all. They always have to qualify: "(air shipping these in early at great expense)". They just don't seem to get that we don't care.

And what is up with the Sand Kraken? That figure will be impossible to use. I'm assuming the base is going to take up 4 squares (as an XXL), so what do I do with the tentacles? Obviously I can't put it next to the characters... unless I turn it away. But what do I then to with other monsters? They won't be able to approach.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by TheMix » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:53 pm

I was venting about this to my best friend and decided to look at Cool Stuff Inc's SoB stuff. 20 listings. 2 are the base game and one is an expansion that isn't available yet. That's 17 items being sold at retail that have still not been sent to backers as agreed. Well... if you discount those backers that gave in to the extortion.

It also looks like everything at CSI is 33% off. I might look through the offerings to see what items are available that I didn't get in my pledge.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hepcat » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:19 pm

God help me, I think I'm going to do it. :oops:
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hentzau » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:20 pm

But man, I'd feel so dirty doing it...
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hepcat » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:50 pm

I really want that frontier town expansion though.

I was going over the list of stuff in wave 1.5 alone and it really is quite a lot. I believe they went into this without a clue as to how much they were adding, and how much it was going to cost them. If this were a new game maker with no experience I would feel bad for them. But it's insane that an established company like FFP made this mistake.

it's even more insane that even after the Kickstarter ended and they were getting a clue as to how much they were going to lose on this, they still offered additional outlaw and minecart level pledges to be added to backer's original pledges.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Zarathud » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:02 pm

Get dirty. I just want to play more. :ninja:
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hentzau » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:07 pm

*sigh*
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hepcat » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:41 am

On the plus side, I believe they're either releasing or at least previewing the Derelict Ship adventure for SOB (such an apt acronym). This is the one with a crashed spaceship and undead astronauts in the old west. It's the expansion I've been most excited for beyond the frontier town.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hepcat » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:52 am

...and I did it. :oops:

edit: I was worried about trunk space, but I forgot zarathud is riding down with me, but not back. So that means I may actually have room for all this crap now!
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hentzau » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:13 pm

I did too.

But I took about a half an hour shower after it was done.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hepcat » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:39 pm

The only hard part is that I have two outlaw pledges (someone from Quarter to Three that I talk boardgames with asked me to add an outlaw pledge to mine as he'd missed the original kickstarter, so I did), so that means I'll need to lug two of those big ass boxes back to my car at some point. :cry:
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Chaz » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:47 pm

Just so I'm clear on what happened here:

-FF had a kickstarter where if you pledged at a certain level, you got a mess of extra stuff
- They let people sign up for that pledge level way after the kickstarter ended
- They produced the first batch of stuff, and sent it to backers
- Then they realized that holy crap, this making and shipping a game is expensive
- They made all the next batch of stuff
- They put this batch on sale to non-backers to get money
- They sat on the backers' stuff until they decide they have enough money to send the stuff out that people already paid for
- They're now offering to let people have the stuff they paid for as long as they come see them at GenCon and pay them an extra $20

That sound about right? If so, that's insane.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Smoove_B » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:01 pm

Chaz wrote:That sound about right? If so, that's insane.
Yup. That about sums it up. They'll not get a single $1 from me ever again and I half expect to not actually see the remainder of my pledge. I have nearly zero interest in playing this game anymore and if I could easily sell my half assembled sets, I'd likely do it.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:10 pm

The optimism on page 1 is so heartbreaking.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by $iljanus » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:22 pm

I had expected to read about more outrage on BGG about all of this but it seems relatively chill there. Was there a gag order or something?
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hentzau » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:24 pm

The problem is (for me) the game is just flat out FUN. I've had more fun playing this game than I have had with any other in a long time (Pandemic Legacy being the exception.) And yeah, I feel horrible giving them any extra money to get my stuff that I already paid for. But...I want to play!
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Zarathud » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:32 pm

I want to play, and it's a fun game. But I didn't kickstart, so I'm willing to be an incorrigible enabler.

I think FF likely has legal exposure from how they handled themselves, and getting your product and running before the shit hits the fan is the smart move.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hepcat » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:17 pm

While I'm disappointed by all this, I can actually sympathize with them a little. In the early days of big Kickstarter projects, a lot of game companies promised the moon and the stars during their kickstarters...but then quickly realized that shipping all of that stuff was murder. That's why almost every project with a lot of stuff now charges extra for shipping.

FFG should have known better, yes. But I don't think they were trying to scam people. They just got in over their heads. The sheer amount of stuff backers get is amazing, and to their credit it looks like they have every intention of making good on their promise. I don't believe they'll skip town before fulfilling their commitment.

As for the 20 bucks, I'm just going to think of it as the shipping charge they should've included initially. I'm not happy about it, but it could be worse.

Besides, I want that damn frontier town expansion.

P.S. I don't think they actually let just anyone jump into the Kickstarter after it finished. I think they just allowed backers to add another pledge to their own. Still annoying, but a much smaller potential consumer group.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Smoove_B » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:33 pm

hepcat wrote:FFG should have known better, yes. But I don't think they were trying to scam people. They just got in over their heads. The sheer amount of stuff backers get is amazing, and to their credit it looks like they have every intention of making good on their promise. I don't believe they'll skip town before fulfilling their commitment.
I don't think they were/are scamming people either - and they're absolutely in over their heads. I'm not sure I agree with their solution thus far to the problem, but I've also never raised ~1.3 million to make a game either. I don't think they're going to skip town; I think it's going to be delayed and dragged out as the amount of money that will be necessary to ship what's promised is likely problematic.

I want to like the game - I don't own a single other title that's even remotely close in theme - but the whole KS project has left me with a really sour taste.

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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by hepcat » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:50 pm

I think you'd like it. And the new expansions are reportedly addressing some of the issues I had with combat (it felt a little too predictable after a while). Of course, you should first play your starter set for Malifaux though. :P
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Re: [Kickstarter] Shadows of Brimstone

Post by Smoove_B » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:42 am

I figured for the people that are retail supporters (i.e not Kickstarter chumps) I'd post that CSI is having a sale on one of the enemy packs. $40 retail and part of our stretch goals (eventually) but you can own them for $20. Awesome.

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