Not a fan of side-scrollers

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Pyperkub
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Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Pyperkub »

I suspect that it's because I never had a real Nintendo, but I'm just not a fan of side-scrolling games. It seems to me that there are a lot more of these cropping up now.. perhaps because they are easier to code, and also because they were a mainstay of the Mario games in the 90's, which many of the current crop of devs grew up with.

I see games like Terreria and Starbound and A Valley without Wind, etc, and they sound interesting, and I should like them, but I think I just don't care much for side-scrollers. I did finish Limbo, but I was glad that was short.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Smoove_B »

I'm sort of mixed on them. I really liked Terraria. Deadlight was a very mixed bag for me. I am really awful at Spelunky, but I couldn't stop playing. I've found Mark of the Ninja to be quite challenging. Does Gunpoint count? I'd say over all "it depends". I wouldn't write them all off, but I get where you're coming from.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Blackhawk »

I respect that they can be good games, and I was a huge fan of Mario through the 90s, but I can't stand them today, either. They may be good games, but they don't contain the elements that draw me to play games anymore.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Zurai »

Side-scroller isn't even a genre. You're dismissing a massive number of games simply because they use a profile perspective instead of first-person or isometric, etc. It seems really silly to me.

I can understand disliking platformer games, which are frequently but not always side-scrolling. I personally loath jumping "puzzles" in the vast majority of games, and that's the core gameplay mechanic of platformers, so there are a lot of side-scrolling games which I just ignore. I can't understand disliking an entire visual perspective, though. I mean, Terraria and Mario have absolutely nothing in common aside from the visual perspective, and R-Type is something completely different again.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Blackhawk »

Unless certain visual perspectives are what draw you to games.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by wonderpug »

Zurai wrote:Side-scroller isn't even a genre. You're dismissing a massive number of games simply because they use a profile perspective instead of first-person or isometric, etc. It seems really silly to me.

I can understand disliking platformer games, which are frequently but not always side-scrolling. I personally loath jumping "puzzles" in the vast majority of games, and that's the core gameplay mechanic of platformers, so there are a lot of side-scrolling games which I just ignore. I can't understand disliking an entire visual perspective, though. I mean, Terraria and Mario have absolutely nothing in common aside from the visual perspective, and R-Type is something completely different again.
I probably agree with you, but it depends on why Pyper doesn't like side-scrolling games. I know some people can't stand playing 3rd person shooters with an over-the-shoulder camera, so maybe...somehow there's a way a 2d side view can really throw someone off?

But yeah, if Pyper is saying that Terraria and Super Mario have similar gameplay, I'm right on board with you. I'm also curious if he means side-scrolling R-Type is taboo, but vertical scrolling 1942 is a-ok.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Zurai »

Yeah, I guess that's true and I can eat my words a bit. I do understand that some people get, for example, motion sick with certain first-person or over-the-shoulder perspective games and thus would avoid them. That kind of thing is perfectly understandable to me.

I just have never heard of a similar thing for side-scrolling games. I guess I can understand just being completely uninterested in the art direction it requires, or the control scheme maybe? I dunno, it just seems like a very foreign concept to me that I can only understand in the vaguest of ways.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Blackhawk »

For my part, I play games for the fantasy. I want to, for a few hours, be the person exploring the cave, winning the shootout, swinging the sword, even commanding the army. That is a significant portion of the appeal of most games for me. I simply don't get that feeling from side scrolling games. You control the character, but you aren't seeing the world through their eyes. For me, that removes immersion, and without immersion, games don't have a great deal of appeal to me.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by wonderpug »

Blackhawk wrote:For my part, I play games for the fantasy. I want to, for a few hours, be the person exploring the cave, winning the shootout, swinging the sword, even commanding the army. That is a significant portion of the appeal of most games for me. I simply don't get that feeling from side scrolling games. You control the character, but you aren't seeing the world through their eyes. For me, that removes immersion, and without immersion, games don't have a great deal of appeal to me.
Interesting. For me, the simpler the graphics, the more my imagination takes over. Sorta like the way worlds look when I read a book instead of watching the movie adaptation.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Pyperkub wrote:I suspect that it's because I never had a real Nintendo, but I'm just not a fan of side-scrolling games. It seems to me that there are a lot more of these cropping up now.. perhaps because they are easier to code, and also because they were a mainstay of the Mario games in the 90's, which many of the current crop of devs grew up with.

I see games like Terreria and Starbound and A Valley without Wind, etc, and they sound interesting, and I should like them, but I think I just don't care much for side-scrollers. I did finish Limbo, but I was glad that was short.
Do you think it's specifically because of the perspective, or maybe you just dislike "16 bit" games?

I loved many a 16 bit game when they first came out for the Nintendo and made them mainstream popular (Super Mario Bros, et al), but I am not crazy about the apparently huge retro trend to bring this style of gaming back.

Given the crazy high Metascore, I decided to try Hotline Miami last night, for instance. My immediate reaction was "Good LORD why would anyone play that today?!" I could easily list 25 or more flash games that are better (IMO of course), not just technically, but in other aspects as well.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Blackhawk »

wonderpug wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:For my part, I play games for the fantasy. I want to, for a few hours, be the person exploring the cave, winning the shootout, swinging the sword, even commanding the army. That is a significant portion of the appeal of most games for me. I simply don't get that feeling from side scrolling games. You control the character, but you aren't seeing the world through their eyes. For me, that removes immersion, and without immersion, games don't have a great deal of appeal to me.
Interesting. For me, the simpler the graphics, the more my imagination takes over. Sorta like the way worlds look when I read a book instead of watching the movie adaptation.
I'm the same way, which is why I don't have any problem playing old, old games. It isn't the simplicity of the graphics. It is the lack of sharing the character's perspective in any significant way.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by LordMortis »

To hate side scrollers is to hate the way I grew up.

Image

I played games like this non stop for years.

Though, as much as I am not someone who cares about graphics, when I go back at look at some of these game now, I do seem to have a minimum level.

I remember what seemed like the original side scroller

Image

where the graphics looked soooo much better than any other Atari 2600 or Odyssey 2 game out there to date. It was like "wow."

Or maybe we're talking side scroller where your paper doll is held in place and the environment moves around it.

Image


But yeah, we lost me when Super Mario Bros came out. And I loved me some Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr, and Mario Bros.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Pyperkub »

LordMortis wrote:To hate side scrollers is to hate the way I grew up.

Image

I played games like this non stop for years.

Though, as much as I am not someone who cares about graphics, when I go back at look at some of these game now, I do seem to have a minimum level.

I remember what seemed like the original side scroller

Image

where the graphics looked soooo much better than any other Atari 2600 or Odyssey 2 game out there to date. It was like "wow."

Or maybe we're talking side scroller where your paper doll is held in place and the environment moves around it.

Enlarge Image

But yeah, we lost me when Super Mario Bros came out. And I loved me some Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr, and Mario Bros.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by LordMortis »

:oops:

That wasn't intentional. It didn't start out as a big image, but now it seem appropriate.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Blackhawk »

I don't hate anything. Back in the day, when that was all there was, that was what I played and enjoyed. I mentioned that I used to be a big Mario fan. Now that there are offerings that suit my needs so much better, though, I just can't get into them.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by killbot737 »

I'm pretty sure he means 2D platformers. I too have this tendency, but I bought Fez a while ago and I couldn't stop playing until I got every damn achievement! It's probably because in that game death earns no penalty. If you die you basically end up where you took your leap of doom. You really need to play it with a controller though.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by The Rocketman »

Carpet_pissr wrote:Given the crazy high Metascore, I decided to try Hotline Miami last night, for instance. My immediate reaction was "Good LORD why would anyone play that today?!" I could easily list 25 or more flash games that are better (IMO of course), not just technically, but in other aspects as well.
To discuss Hotline Miami quickly: it's an experiece really. The graphics are pulsing, vibrant, and shifting and changing even. The music is a pumping beat, or sometimes a jarring screaching score. The gameplay is fast and super agressive: you scout, you tackle an opponent, you beat his head repeatedly until it splatters, a second opponent surprises you, you die, you reload and try again, all this in 5 seconds. The story itself starts to become this weird hallucinating trip.

I love it. It's bold, makes no compromises and succeeds in what it attempts to do.

But I completely see how you could not be impressed, at it's core it's a simple and ugly game. I had the privilege of being shown the game by someone who knew what he was doing so I got a glimpse at how a good player approaches this game. Also, his character had a dentist drill with which he pinned enemies to the floor and consequently drilled through their skull, that helped sell the game.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Carpet_pissr »

The Rocketman wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:Given the crazy high Metascore, I decided to try Hotline Miami last night, for instance. My immediate reaction was "Good LORD why would anyone play that today?!" I could easily list 25 or more flash games that are better (IMO of course), not just technically, but in other aspects as well.
To discuss Hotline Miami quickly: it's an experiece really. The graphics are pulsing, vibrant, and shifting and changing even. The music is a pumping beat, or sometimes a jarring screaching score. The gameplay is fast and super agressive: you scout, you tackle an opponent, you beat his head repeatedly until it splatters, a second opponent surprises you, you die, you reload and try again, all this in 5 seconds. The story itself starts to become this weird hallucinating trip.

I love it. It's bold, makes no compromises and succeeds in what it attempts to do.

But I completely see how you could not be impressed, at it's core it's a simple and ugly game. I had the privilege of being shown the game by someone who knew what he was doing so I got a glimpse at how a good player approaches this game. Also, his character had a dentist drill with which he pinned enemies to the floor and consequently drilled through their skull, that helped sell the game.
Neither the simplicity nor the ugliness bother me...again, there's plenty of simple, ugly, but great games on Kongregate (that I play on a regular basis).

My surprise I guess, is the crazy enthusiastic reaction that this particular game got in the gaming media. On a personal level, also, I tend to hate games that are based so much on your reflexes. But it was over when for instance, I would clear a hard won level (or even room), SHOOT the last freaking guy with some kind of gun, then he rises up and makes me start all over, because I couldn't put my mouse over his head and click space quickly enough. Maybe this one would benefit more from a controller?
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Why does it have to be about poor graphics and lack of immersion?

This is a side scroller:

Enlarge Image
Enlarge Image
Enlarge Image

If you're not playing side-scrollers as a rule because you don't like dated graphics or 2D, you're missing out on some non-2D, non dated looking games.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Blackhawk »

I don't think anybody actually made some of those criticisms. I play plenty of old, ugly games, and I love them. I play 2d games and love them. I've played beautiful 3d side scrollers.

The immersion, however, is more personal. To me, a side scrolling game has you watching a character, while games that put you behind or inside the protagonist have you being a character.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Blackhawk wrote:I don't think anybody actually made some of those criticisms. I play plenty of old, ugly games, and I love them. I play 2d games and love them.
That's just it. Making the the argument for/against side scrollers that "if they're good enough, the graphics don'tmatter" still emphasizes poor graphics as a hallmark of 2D games. Graphics don't matter because there are beautiful side scrollers that are also excellent games.

For someone who can't get into side scrollers I would almost certainly point them to Shadow Complex, Deadlight, or Mark of the Ninja as starting points. Great games with great graphics. Not classic old games that are judged to be fantastic despite poor graphics.
Blackhawk wrote:The immersion, however, is more personal. To me, a side scrolling game has you watching a character, while games that put you behind or inside the protagonist have you being a character.
Where would you place 2D or 3D 3/4 isometric POV? I see where you're coming from but it really doesn't affect me. I enjoyed games in BASIC where "I" was an @. Once I accept the world for what it is, be it 2D, 3D, left-rightly, whatever, I can take on that character.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by Blackhawk »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:I don't think anybody actually made some of those criticisms. I play plenty of old, ugly games, and I love them. I play 2d games and love them.
That's just it. Making the the argument for/against side scrollers that "if they're good enough, the graphics don'tmatter" still emphasizes poor graphics as a hallmark of 2D games. Graphics don't matter because there are beautiful side scrollers that are also excellent games.
You misunderstand me. My point was simply that graphics are not a major factor for me one way or the other. I play visually amazing games, I play old, blocky games. I just got done replaying Dark Forces a while ago, and still kill time with Final Fantasy III (VI) now and then.
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:The immersion, however, is more personal. To me, a side scrolling game has you watching a character, while games that put you behind or inside the protagonist have you being a character.
Where would you place 2D or 3D 3/4 isometric POV? I see where you're coming from but it really doesn't affect me. I enjoyed games in BASIC where "I" was an @. Once I accept the world for what it is, be it 2D, 3D, left-rightly, whatever, I can take on that character.
And there you have hit on the exception I expected someone to bring up. I do play a lot of overhead RPG/strategy games, from Baldur's Gate to X-Com to Shadowrun. In most of them, you are still stepping into a role - that of a disembodied 'commander' for much of the gameplay. To be honest, I don't become as immersed in those games as I do in others, but the ones I do play usually have strong tactical elements that appeal to me for a whole different set of reasons.

There is nothing 'wrong' with side-scrollers, they just don't have the thing that draws me to gaming anymore. I've tried a few modern side-scrollers. Terraria, Trine, Trine 2, and the demo for Shadow Complex (I think it was SC) come to mind. I just don't get drawn in, and find myself utterly bored after an hour or so.
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Re: Not a fan of side-scrollers

Post by hitbyambulance »

i'm more into the 'game' part of the game. 'immersion' is not nearly as important, much less story or plot. i look for the mechanics and how well the game handles inputs, and rewards your skills.
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