Game Design Question

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Dave Allen
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Game Design Question

Post by Dave Allen »

Is it okay to use a single screenshot from a game in your own game creation?
Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body."[Matt 10:28] God can totally destroy us.

Jesus also said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”[John 6:40] Eternal life is conditional.

His disciple John wrote, "Whoever has the Son has eternal life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. [1 John 5:12] Eternal life is optional.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by wonderpug »

You want to use a screenshot of someone else's game as art in your game? I'm guessing that falls in the naughty category.
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Post by Pyperkub »

Use for satire is about the only way you could do so without needing to license or purchase the assets.
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Dave Allen
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Dave Allen »

Fair use law considers the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole. It also considers the effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.

Its seems to me the use of a single screenshot from a video game would be equivalent to the use of a single word from a published novel - as far as amount and substance - negligible.
Also, my intended use would be a kind of advertising - likely increasing the value and sales of the other game.
Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body."[Matt 10:28] God can totally destroy us.

Jesus also said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”[John 6:40] Eternal life is conditional.

His disciple John wrote, "Whoever has the Son has eternal life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. [1 John 5:12] Eternal life is optional.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Pyperkub »

Dave Allen wrote:Fair use law considers the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole. It also considers the effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.

Its seems to me the use of a single screenshot from a video game would be equivalent to the use of a single word from a published novel - as far as amount and substance - negligible.
Also, my intended use would be a kind of advertising - likely increasing the value and sales of the other game.
Without their permission, you're asking for trouble. Maybe they don't want the characters they created performing in advertisements as it would hurt their brand. If the screenshot contains characters that are branded especially.

Consider that D&D couldn't use the term Hobbit and had to use Halflings for more on your 1-word analogy.

Or do you see screenshots of Mickey Mouse in any Nintendo games?
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by NickAragua »

As Pyperkub said, unless it's for satire purposes, if you are planning to sell this game to people in exchange for money, you will want to ask for permission - better safe than sorry in this case.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Fitzy »

Pyperkub wrote:
Without their permission, you're asking for trouble. Maybe they don't want the characters they created performing in advertisements as it would hurt their brand. If the screenshot contains characters that are branded especially.

Consider that D&D couldn't use the term Hobbit and had to use Halflings for more on your 1-word analogy.
Hobbit is a made up word. D&D using the word would be using the invention. Over long term it's an obvious no no.

However, Jim Butcher used Tolkien creations as part of a discussion in a Dresden Files book. I don't think he had to get permission, but I could be wrong.

Fair Use comes down to just that. D&D copying a made up race is not fair use. Using popular culture probably is. Though it depends on the usage.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by AWS260 »

Pyperkub wrote:
Dave Allen wrote:Fair use law considers the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole. It also considers the effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.
Its seems to me the use of a single screenshot from a video game would be equivalent to the use of a single word from a published novel - as far as amount and substance - negligible.
Also, my intended use would be a kind of advertising - likely increasing the value and sales of the other game.
Without their permission, you're asking for trouble. Maybe they don't want the characters they created performing in advertisements as it would hurt their brand. If the screenshot contains characters that are branded especially.
And unfortunately, even if you are legally in the right, you could still be forced to prove it in court, which ain't cheap.
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Dave Allen
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Dave Allen »

I'm disappointed to hear all this.

When I posted the first “Name the Screenshot” topic years ago, I didn’t realize it would become so popular. Along the same line, I have an idea for the game described below:
Jigsaw Rogue (working title)

The player starts with x# of points and x# of randomly-scattered, jigsaw puzzle pieces that need to be assembled to create a random pc game screenshot.. The pieces can be moved, rotated, and attached – individually or in groups. Properly connected pieces are connected permanently. Zooming and panning are features. At any time, the correct name of the game from which the screenshot was taken may be entered for a “win”, but an incorrect entry subtracts points. One point is awarded for every piece not attached to any other piece when the “win” is made. All pieces must be connected together AND a “win” made to unlock the next, random screenshot. Points may be spent at any time to guess a letter in the correct game name (like Wheel of Fortune). The point cost varies based on how common the letter, and increases with each guess. The game is over when the player runs out of points. High score is the total number of screenshots unlocked.
Maybe some talented OOers could make this a FREE game then?
Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body."[Matt 10:28] God can totally destroy us.

Jesus also said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”[John 6:40] Eternal life is conditional.

His disciple John wrote, "Whoever has the Son has eternal life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. [1 John 5:12] Eternal life is optional.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Pyperkub »

I'm not a lawyer, but that kind of use would (IMHO) definitely require permission to use the images. Think of movies/TV shows which have other movies/tv shows in the background. In every case, the closing credits will state that the images were used with permission of the rightsholders.

I had a lawyer friend who used to work for Playboy. (part of) Her job was to watch their softcore porn just to make sure that no copyrighted artwork was in the background of the videos. This is big business in the Entertainment industry.

You could definitely use the screenshots in a pitch, but part of the eventual costs of producing the game would be acquiring permission for the likenesses. In some cases, that might be free, but in others it could be a big no.

When in doubt, think of the screenshot as a picture of Mickey Mouse. Do you think Disney would let you do that? If the screenshot is recognizably Mickey Mouse, the answer is a resounding NO. Ditto for screenshots being recognizably the product of someone else's copyrighted work.
Last edited by Pyperkub on Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, there's a game for the Xbox360 called "Scene It" which features clips and screenshots from various movies and TV shows as the basis for a trivia game. The stable of films and shows they pick from is quite limited (I think they're all from the same network/studio/whatever) and the number of "Used with Permission" notations in the game and manual is enough to choke a horse.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Zenn7 »

Pyperkub wrote: I had a lawyer friend who used to work for Playboy. (part of) Her job was to watch their softcore porn just to make sure that no copyrighted artwork was in the background of the videos. This is big business in the Entertainment industry.
How often did you get to volunteer to help? :D
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Pyperkub »

Zenn7 wrote:
Pyperkub wrote: I had a lawyer friend who used to work for Playboy. (part of) Her job was to watch their softcore porn just to make sure that no copyrighted artwork was in the background of the videos. This is big business in the Entertainment industry.
How often did you get to volunteer to help? :D
She actually invited an old roomate of mine to a party at the Mansion one time. She asked him to promise to stay with her at the party and he said sure, I'll hang with you... after 5 minutes (or less) he had run off somewhere... he always was a bit of a player ;). (of course, his brother was even worse...).
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Hipolito »

I think you have a great idea, Dave, and maybe there's a way around the copyright issue.

Invite indie game developers to submit screenshots of their games to you for inclusion in your game. When a player successfully completes a puzzle, a "Would You Like To Know More?" button appears that takes the player to the developer's website to learn more about the game and possibly buy it. It would help indie developers market their games. (As a Steam Greenlight enthusiast, I've seen how hard they struggle for attention.) They may be even willing to pay you a small amount for the advertising.

You could update the game each month with new screenshots of upcoming indie games. I bet a lot of people would look forward to playing "Dave's Puzzles" every month. I mean, I would.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Zarathud »

For something like this? Ask for permission. It's not worth the risk of getting sued, and you might find someone at the game company who thinks it's a cool idea.

Another option would be to allow users to link to a directory of their own screenshot(s). You're not doing the copying, that would be something done by the end-user. They could link to their video game screenshots, family pictures, cat memes or something awful from 4chan.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Dave Allen »

Hipolito wrote:Invite indie game developers to submit screenshots of their games to you for inclusion in your game. When a player successfully completes a puzzle, a "Would You Like To Know More?" button appears that takes the player to the developer's website to learn more about the game and possibly buy it. It would help indie developers market their games...
Thanks for your encouragement, Hipolito. Based on your suggestions I sent out this invitation to a jigsaw puzzle developer today:
I have an idea for a game. I would like your help in making it a reality. The heart of the game requires a jigsaw puzzle engine. Here is the general idea:

Jigsaw Portal (working title)

The player starts with x# of points and x# of randomly-scattered, jigsaw puzzle pieces that need to be assembled to create a random pc game screenshot.. The pieces can be moved, rotated, and attached – individually or in groups. Properly connected pieces are connected permanently. At any time, the correct name of the game from which the screenshot was taken may be entered for a “win”, but an incorrect entry subtracts points. One point is awarded for every piece not attached to any other piece when the “win” is made. All pieces must be connected together AND a “win” made to unlock the next, random screenshot. Points may be spent at any time to guess a letter in the correct game name (like Wheel of Fortune). The point cost varies based on how common the letter, and increases with each guess. The game is over when the player runs out of points. High score is the total number of screenshots unlocked.

Well, that is my idea in a nutshell. Except for one last, critical element:
While you are designing and programming, I would invite a host of indie developers to submit screenshots of their completed or upcoming games. I would tell them it is free advertising for their games. That in Jigsaw Portal, as each puzzle is completed, a button would appear linked to their website.
What do you think?
Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body."[Matt 10:28] God can totally destroy us.

Jesus also said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”[John 6:40] Eternal life is conditional.

His disciple John wrote, "Whoever has the Son has eternal life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. [1 John 5:12] Eternal life is optional.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Dave Allen »

Hello David,

thank you for contact us with your idea.
We appreciate you offer, but we are not interest. I'm sorry, but our
developers are busy and they realizing their own projects.

Even so, we wish you good luck.

Best regards,

Tereza Siruckova
Assistant

Tibo Software
Guess I'll send out another offer.
Any leads, suggestions or anyone personally interested in developing/programming - please let me know. blowingsand@att.net
Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body."[Matt 10:28] God can totally destroy us.

Jesus also said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”[John 6:40] Eternal life is conditional.

His disciple John wrote, "Whoever has the Son has eternal life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. [1 John 5:12] Eternal life is optional.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by TiLT »

Dave Allen wrote:Guess I'll send out another offer.
Any leads, suggestions or anyone personally interested in developing/programming - please let me know. blowingsand@att.net
Wait, what? You've got a game design idea that you're asking other people to implement for you? In other words, you're not making it yourself?

I'm going to be honest with you right now, and it's not going to be pleasant: You're lucky the people you wrote to even bothered to reply to your suggestion. What you got there was a best case scenario. There were plenty of ways it could have turned out worse. Under no circumstance would they have accepted your design or done any work for you.

The truth is, everyone's a designer. Everyone! Successful developers and publishers get bombarded with game designs every day. Do you know how many of these designs they end up working on? None. Zero. They've got their own designers and they've got more ideas than they know what to do with already, made by their own designers. Your design idea is at best useless to them, or at worse is similar enough to an idea they already have that you risk creating legal trouble for them if they proceed with their own idea. Add to that the fact that even their designers don't do design full-time. Most of them are coders as well, and often have other responsibilities.

If you want your idea implemented, you need to do the brunt of the work yourself. That means coding the game. If you don't know how to code, teach yourself the skills required. The best you can hope for without doing so is to get the attention of random people unconnected to any studios, who are unlikely to finish the job in the first place. No real studio is going to want your idea, and they may even resent you for sending them your idea in the first place.

It actually pains me to write all of this, because enthusiasm for game design is so important, yet the industry is far too cruel for your approach to work. I want you to succeed, but to do that you must realize that you're going about it in a way that leads nowhere.

Here's what you need to do if you ever want to see your game idea realized: Code a prototype on your own. Make it work, even if it's in a more simplistic form than you might like. Make it fun in a way that would be readily apparent to anyone who tries it. Then, and only then, do you contact development studios or publishers. At this stage they could end up being interested, though you might as well just release your game as a one-man project if you've gotten this far and use your release as leverage to get their interest for your next game idea.

The sad reality is that if all you've got to show is a design document, that's all you'll ever have.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Dave Allen »

Hey TiLT - thanks for your insight and frankness. Its given me a more realistic perspective. And an idea.
Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body."[Matt 10:28] God can totally destroy us.

Jesus also said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”[John 6:40] Eternal life is conditional.

His disciple John wrote, "Whoever has the Son has eternal life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. [1 John 5:12] Eternal life is optional.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by AWS260 »

TiLT wrote:If you want your idea implemented, you need to do the brunt of the work yourself. That means coding the game. If you don't know how to code, teach yourself the skills required.
Dave, if you decide to go down this path and are looking for inspiration, you may want to check our Bill Harris's posts about the development of Gridiron Solitaire. Here's the first post.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Dave Allen »

Wow :!: Compared to what Bill has created, what I am considering is extremely simple. It seems more doable now. Thanks for the link.
Lazy as I am, I'll try to avoid the grueling process of learning to program. :oops:
I'm in negotiations with a coder who also happens to be a family member. :pray:
Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body."[Matt 10:28] God can totally destroy us.

Jesus also said, "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”[John 6:40] Eternal life is conditional.

His disciple John wrote, "Whoever has the Son has eternal life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have eternal life. [1 John 5:12] Eternal life is optional.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by TiLT »

Sorry I forgot to reply sooner. A jigsaw puzzle is very straightforward, so as far as first projects go, this is about as good as it gets. The challenges you will need to face are reasonably small compared to what you'll get for overcoming them.

We've got a few experienced software developers in this forum (me included), so if this is the route you decide to take, don't hesitate to ask for help. This goes for everything from design to implementation to business stuff. :)
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by TiLT »

Also, programming isn't grueling. Modern programming languages, even those suitable to games (maybe especially those, in some cases) are easy to learn and very rewarding too. If game design is something you really want to do, you're going to have to learn to code at some point. Might as well be now when this skill is going to maximize your profits to a degree it won't be able to later.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by RunningMn9 »

Yeah, modern programming languages are more or less like using MS Paint compared to older languages.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by TiLT »

RunningMn9 wrote:Yeah, modern programming languages are more or less like using MS Paint compared to older languages.
Only if we lived in some bizarro world where MS Paint not only produced great results, but people also paid for them.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by RunningMn9 »

Yes. :)

I'm just talking complexity. I don't think I've ever had to spend more than 10 minutes figuring something out in C#, things that were impossible or weeks of work in older languages.

They are incredibly powerful, and I genuinely enjoy using them when I get the chance.
And in banks across the world
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Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by NickAragua »

Easy to learn, maybe, and that will probably be fine for a proof-of-concept jigsaw puzzle game (I think I wrote a jigsaw puzzle solver for an AI course in my third year of study). However, with no intent to patronize, real programming *is* hard (or, at least, requires a lot of work), even in modern languages, and requires a particular problem-solving mindset that takes years to acquire. On the upside, you'll be able to make your game design ideas a reality (to an extent).

Good luck with the family member, management of software development projects is a completely different beast (and also requires a lot of work in my experience).
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Blackhawk »

TiLT is right. Most professional developers won't acknowledge even looking at suggestions. This is true of film, TV, fiction, music - you name it. Many state outright that any submissions will be discarded unread.

The problem is that if, at any time in the future, even years and years from now, a content producer could come up with something vaguely similar, even years after the memory of the submission had faded. When they start to make money off of it, though, the person who submitted it can turn around and sue them for 'stealing' their idea. It has happened quite a few times. The Matrix was sued for its close resemblance to a novel, as I recall.

By not accepting submissions, they make this kind of lawsuit impossible.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by RunningMn9 »

It's hard for me to respond to that, since I arrived at modern programming languages after decades of dealing with C/C++. It's not that programming is easy. It's that learning to program with modern languages (and learning to function within those languages) is incredibly easy.

There is so much that is done for you that it can be mind-blowing. Whether it was discovering how easy XML serialization was, or using LINQ, or when my mind was blown when learning to use lambda expressions - those are things that require tons of work (or are impossible) in old C.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by NickAragua »

RunningMn9 wrote:It's hard for me to respond to that, since I arrived at modern programming languages after decades of dealing with C/C++. It's not that programming is easy. It's that learning to program with modern languages (and learning to function within those languages) is incredibly easy.

There is so much that is done for you that it can be mind-blowing. Whether it was discovering how easy XML serialization was, or using LINQ, or when my mind was blown when learning to use lambda expressions - those are things that require tons of work (or are impossible) in old C.
Oh, I agree with you that modern languages make programming considerably more convenient. I'm perfectly happy not to have to manually allocate and clean up memory (in most cases), for example. But when you get down to it, if a programmer doesn't put in the time to understand the underlying principles, he's never going to get past the stage of bare mediocrity. Just because you give somebody power tools doesn't mean they'll be any better at doing home repairs.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Turtle »

Actually, you can just skip making your own engine at this point and just use something like the Unity 3D engine, which now also does 2D. I'm using it for my own game.
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Kasey Chang »

Everybody uses Unity. One of my current addictions, Collossatron, is made with Unity. It's a purely 2D game. (badge level 7! Woot! ) (That means I destroyed the planet 7 times already)
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Re: Game Design Question

Post by Kasey Chang »

Regarding the original idea... Forget it. Market's already saturated with these "guess the picture" puzzles. There are even morons who made a in-app-purchase version of it... BUY your way up the score board by buying reveals. Yeah, right.
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