Designers and Dragons

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:03 pm

This was a Kickstarter that ended a few weeks ago, created to fund the writing and publishing of four separate books covering the the roleplaying game industry. I was a late backer and handed over my $15 for digital copies of everything, but the first two books covering the 1970s and 1980s were provided when the KS ended. Incidentally, this was the first time I tried loading a non-Amazon purchase book into my Kindle and it worked flawlessly.

Anyway, I'm about 10% into the 1970s, focused mostly on TSR and the early days of Dungeons and Dragons and I can say without question I've learned more about their history in those few pages than I ever realized. Of course it's not just the historical examination of how they came to be, but as someone that started playing D&D in 1983, I'm finding the analysis of how personalities and creative decisions made early on followed the product for decades. I had no idea the D&D Basic set wasn't a Gygax creation - he was apparently an old-guard curmudgeon that didn't want to "dumb-down" the experience. While he focused on making it more complicated (AD&D), the basic set sold like gangbusters. Growing up, I always wondered why the adventures were so thin and why there wasn't any real support (at the time) for how to run game or create adventures - they weren't interested in doing it.

I also didn't know that originally it was only Fighter, Cleric and Mage that were included with Dungeons and Dragons. It wasn't until about 6 months later that Gygax wrote up the basics for the Thief, distributed it in a fanzine, it it became an official core class.

I'm just hitting the Greyhawk stuff now and even though Gygax was using it as his personal campaign setting in the 1970s, it wasn't officially published until the 1980s because he was making everything up as he went along. The idea that it should be formally created and distributed to people was apparently absurd to him.

Regardless, I would recommend getting hold of a copy as soon as they hit retail, but you can download the first 25% of the 1970s book from their site for free. Note that it doesn't stay in the 1970s, only companies that started in the 1970s - so it follows them forward through time.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:16 pm

In high school, a good friend opened up his closet to a treasure trove of Gamma World and rare early edition AD&D books (including the copyright infringing edition of Fiend Folio). It turns out that his dad worked at TSR during its demise and refused to talk about "the bad times" despite all our efforts.

The story of how Gygax lost control of the company is pretty interesting. He was getting paid as a content creator and with the magazine, not for his work as an officer. So they pointed out a conflict of interest to get him to resign to keep his "paying" job, then announced he no longer had control of the company after the latest stock options AND he no longer had an position as officer to stop them. So, TSR really didn't need him anymore at Dragon Magazine and bye-bye. Talk about a critical fail on the Spot check. Full article here, along with photographic evidence of the documents.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:37 am

Umm...spoiler alert?

I can totally see that being set up in what I've read so far. I'm just to the part where Gamma World is being discussed and they already mentioned the copyright violating Fiend Folio and orange colored Palace of the Silver Princess (B1) which was famous for being written by a woman - the only one employed by TSR at the time - but recalled because of "objectionable artwork" and subsequently re-written and sold with a green cover.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:59 am

I thought it was Deities and Demi-Gods that had the copyright troubles...had the Elric and Cthulhu stuff in it.

I loved that book. One of my favorite D&D books back in the AD&D days.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:03 am

hentzau wrote:I thought it was Deities and Demi-Gods that had the copyright troubles...had the Elric and Cthulhu stuff in it.

The copyright problems came from the fact that it was a joint-effort book, written by the then TSR licensed Games Workshop. GW had to transfer licensing of some of the monsters out from under their own control to TSR, which apparently caused problems for some of the games GW published.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:06 am

That's right, It was the Deities and Demigods with the copyright issues that he wouldn't sell. I bought his Fiend Folio instead.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:18 am

Smoove_B wrote:Umm...spoiler alert?

I can totally see that being set up in what I've read so far. I'm just to the part where Gamma World is being discussed and they already mentioned the copyright violating Fiend Folio and orange colored Palace of the Silver Princess (B1) which was famous for being written by a woman - the only one employed by TSR at the time - but recalled because of "objectionable artwork" and subsequently re-written and sold with a green cover.

Naturally, I went straight to my .pdf of the orange cover B1 just to see what the hubbub was about. Having browsed it, I'm inclined to agree with the theory that what was objectionable wasn't the sexuality, it was the caricatures.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:41 pm

I thought I knew a whole bunch about TSR, but it would seem that as I was getting into it (around 1983), they were already on the decline and failure was en route. What I never would have guessed is that TSR apparently purchased a needlepoint company. Am I misremembering just how big needlepoint was back in 1982? So much so that a company focused on role-playing games felt that would be a good route for expansion of their brand?

I'm just about to turn the corner on the actual downfall of TSR -- I'm at the point where they split into four different companies, allegedly as a tax dodge. The author has suggested that the division responsible for publishing books set in motion the events that ultimately resulted in the demise of the company, but I'm not quite there yet....

Really good stuff -- seriously. Absolutely fascinating. They were some litigious mo-fos -- way more than I realized.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:25 pm

Level 10 gave a +5 bonus to lawyering

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:18 pm

Ok, if you knew about the foray into needlepoint, were you also aware that TSR published a board game in 1985 based on All My Children?

There's actually a commercial on Youtube. What in the actual hell??

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:39 am

The TSR details took up about 30% of the book - which is pretty impressive. I'm now reading about Flying Buffalo, which I was really only familiar with because of their supplemental products (like Grimtooth's Traps and the City source books). I also knew about Tunnels and Trolls, but never realized the genesis and how popular it actually was. What blew my mind was that it was the inspiration for the Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone Fighting Fantasy series of books, which were a staple of my childhood. As I've never actually read any of the T&T books, after a quick Amazon search I found a T&T 5.0 rulebook from 1986 for sale rather cheap, I guess because it's not the boxed set with various adventures. I also discovered a KS project for a new version of T&T was successful last year and a new edition is coming soon. Considering all of the other RPGs I played in the 1980s, I'm amazed that I never actually purchased it.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:45 pm

Hepcat was a T&T troll fan, and tells tales to RedWarlord of growing up with the stuff.

Flying Buffalo always has a booth at Origins. They're interesting guys to talk with, and definitely still in the old school.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:54 pm

We used to play T&T as our "portable" version of D&D. I remember one week at scout camp where instead of working on merit badges we just played T&T the entire week. Wasn't too productive, but it sure was fun.

I still remember some of the goofy spell names, like "Poor Baby" and "Oh That Healing Feeling". Good times, man.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:29 pm

That's funny only because I remember getting yelled at by a Scoutmaster for playing D&D at summer camp. He wasn't against the game, he just didn't think we should be sitting around a picnic table playing something we could do at home. So instead I taught myself how to make fire in various ways using all kinds of materials and techniques. I think it was a fair trade.

I'm very curious to read the rule set if only to see if I can figure out how the Fighting Fantasy books were inspired by the system. From Designers and Dragons, one of their biggest issues with D&D (at the time) was the difficulty in getting the specialty dice to play - that's why everything in their rules is D6 based. They also were huge into player support and creating solo adventures - something the original D&D team didn't want to be involved with at all. It blows my mind that Flying Buffalo started mainly as a Play by Mail (like, USPS mail) company that eventually evolved into paper-RPGs, computer games and choose your own adventure style modules.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:09 pm

My dad was Scoutmaster, and it was my last year of scouts and scout camp, so I pretty much was full up on merit badges. We did spend a lot of additional time upgrading our campsite. We built a giant loom and wove hammocks out of binders twine and reeds. They were scratchy but comfy.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:42 pm

I wasn't into Games Workshop *stuff* back in the day, but it was interesting to read about how White Dwarf magazine was originally all about those new-fangled role playing games until some point in the mid 80s when they stopped talking about competitors and the magazine became a thinly-veiled advertisement for their own products.

I'm almost done with the material covering Game Designers' Workshop (GDW), a company I could only relate to through their publication of Twilight 2000 -- an RPG I can remember playing a few times. Didn't realize it was turned into a computer game in 1992 or that their biggest selling publication was released during Operation Desert Shield as a supplement for RPGs that included the gear that was going to be used by the U.S. military ("The Desert Shield Fact Book") -- it went on the NYT best seller list. Didn't play Space 1889 or Traveler, but I remember the boxes.

For better or worse, after reading and remembering all these games from my youth, I've been going on Ebay to see what's available. Surprisingly, there are copies of things like ICE's Rolemaster and Spacemaster, MERP, Twilight 2000 and many others. My 1986 UK copy of Tunnels and Trolls arrived today - such a tiny, thin book. I'm amazed at just how different it is than the D&D rule books from the same time period. Some day I really need to go into my magic cabinet full of RPG materials and catalog everything. Probably after I finish reading these books.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:46 pm

I've still got all of my original MERP and Rolemaster stuff lying about. I don't think there was ever a game that I liked as much as Rolemaster, but played so little of. That thing was a beast to run.

The only thing I remember about Twilight 2000 was the full page color ads in Dragon with their horrible, horrible art. The soldiers... with their mismatched eyes... staring, always staring...

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:14 pm

Yeah, I was a player for MERP and Rolemaster, never the GM. The tables and charts were legendary - each weapon type had its own table you'd roll for damage effects. I have a bunch of random books, but the one I totally forgot about was SpaceMaster - essentially the Rolemaster fantasty rules adopted for (as I remember) Space Opera-level Sci-Fi. One of my favorite characters was from MERP - a Half-Troll assassin. I worked so hard to create a back story and to the GM's credit he was able to use that information and weave elements into a campaign. Since I was typically the DM for any number of games, being able to actually play a character was a big deal for me.

Twilight 2000 was sort of a post-nuclear apocalypse militarized USA -- no Sci-Fi. In reading through the GDW descriptions of the game now, we didn't use the crazy miniature-lite rules for combat - the books were essentially for campaign flavor and source material.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:28 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Yeah, I was a player for MERP and Rolemaster, never the GM. The tables and charts were legendary - each weapon type had its own table you'd roll for damage effects.

That is one hell of an understatement.

*Grabs Arms Law & Claw Law to explain Rolemaster to people who have never played*

Every weapon and natural attack has its own attack table with die rolls from 0-150, with each number above 44 being distinct and separate, cross-checked against 20 armor types. That means that the table for each and every weapon included 2,160 entries, about half of which referenced one of the 11 critical hit tables (each of which had ~100 unique results based on damage type and critical severity.)

Spells worked the same way.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:36 pm

I used to "work" for GDW back in their heyday. And by work, I would coordinate their midwest demo team for free. Well, for product. I got hooked up with them because they got word of me running Soldier's Companion (minis rules for Space:1889) at conventions. Frank Chadwick spotted one of our games, and hooked me up with their team. It was right at the end of Space:1889's run, but then I got assigned the task of being Gary Gygax's personal demo monkey when they released his "Dangerous Journeys" RPG. Boy, was that a stinker of a system. Anyway, it was actually pretty fun because I got to know Gary and his wife Gail...really nice people. We did games and signings all over Chicagoland and Wisconsin. I always regret not taking Gail up on her offer to come up to their house in Lake Geneva for a game.

I ran Rolemaster thoughout college and in the years following. I used Harn as the world (which was a weird choice since Harn is a low magic world, but it worked) because I didn't have time to build a world from scratch. although we loved it at the time, I couldn't even dream of running that system today.

Probably the longest running RPG I ever did was SpaceMaster. Man, that was a fun time. Had a crew of six players on board the Heracle's Burden. Just the other day I found the ship map that a buddy drew for me on a Chessex mat. Good times.

I know I still have all of my SpaceMaster and RoleMaster stuff upstairs in boxes.

Let me know when you get to Hero Games. Champions was probably my favorite RPG. Or at least in the top 3.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:46 pm

Hero Games will be in the next book -- covering companies that started 1980-1989 -- but I will.

Blackhawk wrote:That is one hell of an understatement.

I remember combat consisting of rolling dice and then flipping through two or three books to see what happened. Other kids were probably drinking and making out with girls - we were figuring out what happens when a 1H blunt weapon hits a Mithril shirt by referring to charts.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:18 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Hero Games will be in the next book -- covering companies that started 1980-1989 -- but I will.

Blackhawk wrote:That is one hell of an understatement.

I remember combat consisting of rolling dice and then flipping through two or three books to see what happened. Other kids were probably drinking and making out with girls - we were figuring out what happens when a 1H blunt weapon hits a Mithril shirt by referring to charts.

The roll of 66 on the critical charts was always the best. We would get so excited when one would crop up.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:26 pm

The crit tables were nuts. You could get anything from 'nothing' to one-shotting a dragon with a dagger.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:37 pm

Also: I'm looking forward to this thing going retail.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:54 pm

If I'm to believe what is being shared on the KS page, allegedly December the book I'm reading now will be available for retail @ the $20 price point.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:14 am

I remember souring on the MERP system when we marched into Moria, the party took a wrong turn and shortly ended up at the bridge. A critical fail roll as we retreated ended up with my character getting picked out of the crowd and eaten by the Balrog. Without doing anything.

Other than D&D, I played a lot of house-ruled Car Wars in high school, with the GURPs system grafted on top for the drivers. I probably read more rules systems than I played. James Bond 007, Marvel Super Heroes, and the Battlesystem rules. My favorite was always Paranoia, since it fit the back-stabbing nature of my high school friends all too well. Our parties always involved something of a competition to see whose character could do more crazy stuff.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:36 am

Zarathud wrote:I remember souring on the MERP system when we marched into Moria, the party took a wrong turn and shortly ended up at the bridge. A critical fail roll as we retreated ended up with my character getting picked out of the crowd and eaten by the Balrog. Without doing anything.

I'd think you'd have soured on the GM, not the system.

Zarathud wrote:Other than D&D, I played a lot of house-ruled Car Wars in high school, with the GURPs system grafted on top for the drivers. I probably read more rules systems than I played. James Bond 007, Marvel Super Heroes, and the Battlesystem rules. My favorite was always Paranoia, since it fit the back-stabbing nature of my high school friends all too well. Our parties always involved something of a competition to see whose character could do more crazy stuff.

I played a lot of Battlesystem in high school - both editions. It was our mainstay before we discovered Warhammer. I also collected systems back then. I could spend hours curled up with a good rulebook. D&D, AD&D 1st and 2nd, GURPS, Rolemaster, MERP, Torg (great system), Paranoia, Shadowrun, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying (back when it was still a roleplaying game.)

I played in a lot of other systems that I never owned, too. Doctor Who, Toon, Ars Magica, Runequest, and some superhero game that used 11,000 d6s for everything.

Since I came back to pen and paper a few years ago, I've played in D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, and Star Wars: Edge of the Empire campaigns (the new Star Wars is a great system, too), along with running a number of one-offs and two campaigns in Savage Worlds, one of my new favorites.

Fate and Dungeon World are currently on my list to check out, although I don't think they'd be a good match for my current group.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:32 am

Weird -- KS message was shared this morning indicating that softcover books are at the printer now and that shipping to backers is on track, maybe even faster. The 90s and 00s books are available for digital backers (like me) in .pdf but the MOBI (Kindle) versions should be coming in the next week or so. I'm not nearly as interested in the 90s and 00s books as my paper RPG experiences had stopped by then, but I will probably breeze through them and read up on the companies I recognize. Hopefully they make it to retail in time for Xmas because they really would make a perfect gift for any old-school RPG gamer.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:54 am

I'm looking forward to the 90s/00s. My pen and paper stopped in the mid 90s, and picked up again a few years ago, so I see those books as filling in the gaps - the periods of history that I didn't experience first hand.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:32 pm

Just getting into the Judges Guild now and I feel like a total n00b as I'd never heard of them before. Granted, it seems like they were small-time and possibly featured in smaller Midwestern stores, but I can't recall ever seeing any of their materials. I also didn't really start buying D&D materials until the mid to late 80s and from what I've read so far, most of the Judge's Guild materials seemed to be critical during the late 70s and early 80s. If nothing else, it's re-affirmed for me that early TSR executives were jerks (more lawsuits, licensing issues and then stealing ideas for products after seeing how well they sold). Reading this book really has changed my perception of TSR and their early days. Tons and tons of their stuff on Ebay and not a single one looks familiar to me. This book mentions a 1980 adventure by Paul Jaquay for AD&D titled "Dark Tower" as a standout but the only ones I can find on Ebay are reprints (?) from 2007 going for $400. Yeah, whatever nerds.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:44 pm

Judge's Guild was a staple of cheap adventures back in the day. I still remember the racks of them at Black's Hardware in Springfield.

And I'm pretty sure I had a copy of Dark Tower at one point. Let me go see if I can find the original cover art and see if it rings a bell.

Nope. Not Dark Tower. But I know a buddy had a copy of the City State of the Invincible Overlord. Along with a bunch of miscellaneous other adventures.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:31 pm

KS announcement today that physical softcover books are en route to distributors and then off to backers. As soon as I hear anything about them being available retail or on Amazon, I'll post it:

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:45 pm

I've been reading Of Dice and Men as a substitute until the real deal gets out there.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:58 pm

I'm just about done with the 70s and what I've come to realize is that I really didn't know all that much about the early history of RPGs. I've also learned that a lot of that is probably related to where I grew up (limited distribution for some of the stuff early on) and my age. Apparently the boom for pen and paper RPGs was 1980-1982 and by 1983 the bust had started. I think the first time I played basic D&D was in 1984 and I didn't actually start buying the D&D materials until 1985 (or maybe late '84). When I really started getting into RPGs in general (1986-1991?), the industry had apparently imploded. That's a general statement but at least from the perspective of the game companies that started it all in the 1970s it seems to be the trend documented.

I also had no idea there were so many companies and games - total ignorance on my part. The last part of the text covered Chaosium (which of course I'm familiar with), but companies like Fantasy Games Unlimited GameScience and Grimore Games (and Arduin from Dave Hargrave) - never heard of any of them. Even people like Lou Zocchi. I have one of his 100-sided dice, but I didn't realize his huge influence on gaming overall. It's just so weird to realize how small my overall exposure was to "classic" RPGs after having considered myself rather hardcore back in the day.

I'll definitely be able to relate more as I start to bust into the 80s as they haven't even touched upon half of the games I used to play. As an aside, Champions was mentioned only as a game that was apparently influenced by Superhero 2044, yet another game I'd never heard of.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:07 pm

I've got a Zocchihedron d100 around somewhere, as well as a set of Gamescience 'precision' dice. It was the third set of dice I bought, and will likely hit its 25th birthday in a few months.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:42 pm

I loved FGU. I always wanted to run a Space Opera game, but we could never make it past the character creation. But I know I have owned:

Space Opera
Villains and Vigilantes
Aftermath
Bushido
Flashing Blades

And Champions only a mention? Sadness.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:39 pm

No, no -- you misunderstand. This first book only covers companies that started in the 1970s. Hero Games was founded in 1981, so they're covered in the next volume. I'll get there...eventually.

All those other titles are mentioned in great detail - including the density of Space Opera. There were some legal issues and I guess only parts of the game books are available, which is a story that was repeated over and over again.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:42 pm

Oh. Much better.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:08 am

Talk about D&D history! I had a friend over for some board gaming and D&D tonight. It was his first time playing in decades (and he wants it to become a regular thing.)

Before he left, my friend gave me gift: some of his old D&D books. We're talking the pre-box stuff - the 1974 pamphlets Gygax printed out and sold from his basement, plus "Supplement IV: Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes."

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:15 pm

Wow. That's pretty impressive. If I ever make it back to your part of 'merica I'd like to stop by and see that. Purchasing copies on Ebay has turned out to be...prohibitive.

I'm knee-deep int he 80s now, having read all about Steve Jackson Games and their slow transition from board gaming, into role playing games and now the Munchkin Empire they've created. I never played GURPS back in the day, but I did pick up what was apparently the GURPS 3rd edition basic rule book and various source books at some point. I remember it being rather...cumbersome (from my point of reference as a D&D player), but the fact that the 4th edition has been around for a decade now is pretty impressive. That being said, it would seem that SJG has pretty much transitioned away from role playing games and they don't really support GURPS all that much anymore as the perception is they market it dead. Anyway, it was an interesting read, particularly how they were one of the first publishers to have an online store (Warehouse 23).

Now I'm into FASA and my experience with them is rather limited. Not into their whole Star Trek thing (which was an early 80s deal, mostly), but reading about their Mechwarrior creation and how that spun off into books and PC games was rather interesting. What I didn't know was that BattleTech was originally BattleDroid, but Lucas Arts had a copyright on "droid" so FASA needed to change it. I also didn't realize that FASA was not amused that Activision was reaping the benefits ($$$) of the Mechwarrior game that was licensed to them so they (FASA) refused to extend the rights for more games, deciding instead to start in-house development of video games (FASA Interactive).

I definitely have a better point of reference for what I've read so far, but it really seems that my time in role playing games was during an overall down period (mid 80s to early 90s) and that I completely missed the booms that happened in the late 1970s (to young) and middle of 1990s (I was in college).