D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

All discussions regarding Board, Card, and RPG Gaming, including industry discussion, that don't belong in one of the other gaming forums.

Moderators: The Preacher, $iljanus, Zaxxon

Post Reply
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

So I picked up the new D&D 5e Starter Set to try with my kids, I couldn't resist Amazon's <$12 price tag. After briefly reading through the included adventure (Lost Mine of Phandelver) I noticed that it is "designed for a group of 4-5 Level 1 adventurers". Unfortunately, I only have 3 kids, and one of them is 5. I had intended to play through this with my two older boys, unless I can somehow talk my wife into playing.

If that happens, I'm concerned about the adventure not scaling well for a party of only two. Any ideas for how to adjust this on the fly? Reduce the number of monsters in each encounter? Add "friendly" NPCs? I really don't want them trying to play two characters, I want to stress the R in RPG and get them invested in a single character each. I'm sure this can be done, just wondering what the best approach might be.
User avatar
hentzau
Posts: 15093
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:06 am
Location: Castle Zenda, Ruritania

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by hentzau »

Boudreaux wrote:So I picked up the new D&D 5e Starter Set to try with my kids, I couldn't resist Amazon's <$12 price tag. After briefly reading through the included adventure (Lost Mine of Phandelver) I noticed that it is "designed for a group of 4-5 Level 1 adventurers". Unfortunately, I only have 3 kids, and one of them is 5. I had intended to play through this with my two older boys, unless I can somehow talk my wife into playing.

If that happens, I'm concerned about the adventure not scaling well for a party of only two. Any ideas for how to adjust this on the fly? Reduce the number of monsters in each encounter? Add "friendly" NPCs? I really don't want them trying to play two characters, I want to stress the R in RPG and get them invested in a single character each. I'm sure this can be done, just wondering what the best approach might be.
If I were running the zoo, I would maybe do a combination of both. Have them each run a character of the type they like. Probably the fighter and the thief is the easiest/most fun to run...they're the most straight forward, and are always in the action. Then you could NPC the cleric and wizard...they're the most situational and need the better strategic mind running them. But simplify them...make them into walking healing/missile platforms. The problem with that it that you have a lot of crap to track as it is, suddenly you have to track the actions of a couple of extra characters. But unless you really nerf the enemies and scenarios, all four characters are really needed to be successful in most cases. You could maybe get by without the cleric if you gave them a wand of healing or a bunch of healing potions.

Then at the same time, at least in the beginning, soften up your enemies until they get into the swing of things. Reduce hit points, lower their to hit numbers and damage a bit.

I think the best solution though would be to see if your sons have a couple of friends that would like to play to fill out the party. Any chance of that?
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

I thought about seeing if they wanted to include friends, but that greatly reduces our opportunities to play. They don't have any of the "lives next door, is over all the time" friends, they're all busy enough and far enough away that having friends over is only an occasional occurrence.
User avatar
hentzau
Posts: 15093
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:06 am
Location: Castle Zenda, Ruritania

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by hentzau »

Then I say recruit mom, set up one NPC, and have at it! Lost Mines is a great intro campaign...lots and lots of things to do in it. Make sure they read the backs of their sheets carefully to get the hooks to the various areas and things that are already set up on the sheets. Owen was kind of lost as to the RP aspects until I had him read the back of the character sheet, and suddenly every decision he made was based on how he thought the character would play, rather than just pure chaos that he was trying to play. Helped him a lot.
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43496
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Blackhawk »

Yep, set up a DM NPC cleric 'healbot' and let the kids play one character each. After that, play it by ear and be willing to fudge (roll your dice behind a screen where the player can't see them.) If you find that the fights are too dangerous, have a couple of enemies go down after only a few points of damage to even the odds, or whif a couple of blows that would have hit. After a little while you'll have a better handle on the mechanics and can adjust the fights in advance.

I normally would never suggest GM fudging on that scale, but with kids just learning the game? Have at it. The secret to keeping it interesting if you go this route, though, is to let them feel danger. Make them wonder whether they can win. Then, when they win, they feel great. If they breeze through everything, they'll get bored.

FWIW, I have rarely ever run a pre-written adventure with exactly what what was recommended for party size. There are almost always too few players or too many. Or you have a cleric and two paladins in the party and are going up against undead. Adjusting encounters to party strength is a regular part of GMing.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

I've DMed a D&D campaign before, both with official modules and my own self-made adventures. But...it was 25 years ago. I'm sure it'll come back to me. Maybe.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by LawBeefaroni »

3 NPCs. Kill one off early to get the fear into them.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16435
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Zarathud »

I am torn between using 5E or something easier like Kobolds Ate My Baby (without the death chart or kobolds). Whatever it will be, it will be home brew adventures based around them as mice people. I may just use the Mice & Mystics characters and figures, along with those coming in the next Reaper Bones set.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43496
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Blackhawk »

I'd stick with one GM NPC at first. The more you have, the more your kids are going to be sitting there not doing anything while they watch you play the game, and the more the heroic moments won't involve them.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

First session is in the books, we got through the very first encounter at the beginning of the starter adventure.

Man, I am REALLY rusty. Lots of new rules that I clearly don't have a handle on. It didn't help that they were rolling 5s and 6s for attacks and my goblins were rolling 18s. Even with some fudging I almost knocked one of them out, but they all had fun.
User avatar
hentzau
Posts: 15093
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:06 am
Location: Castle Zenda, Ruritania

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by hentzau »

They won't remember the mistakes. They'll remember the fun. :)

And to help with the low rolls, in the beginning you could be generous in granting advantage to your players if they describe some cool way they are attacking the goblins. That second dice roll can make a big difference.
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

Part of it is getting them out of the board game mindset and into the freedom of an RPG mindset. Plus, there are a lot of options for actions in a combat turn that they're just not aware of, as I didn't want to overwhelm them. Dodging, disengaging, hiding, etc. I tried to introduce some of these by having the goblins do them, but that really only confused me. I'm trying to run combat in a narrative format instead of using a map and miniatures, but that means a lot more remembering what's happening on my part.

Adjusting the difficulty isn't too bad so far. The initial encounter is supposed to be 4 goblins, 2 melee and 2 shortbow archers. I left out one of the archers. I let them find a small healing potion on the "leader" after they'd killed them. Sometimes it's hard to let them use their imagination and try things when those things are stupid - one of them (playing a wizard) decided to use Detect Magic instead of Burning Hands or Magic Missile. Points for original thinking, but you need to kill the baddies first.

So far I'm pretty happy with their enthusiasm. It's just going to take some education on their part. It reminds me of the first time I played Ninjas and Superspies using a totally different system than D&D. I was roleplaying an agent, and in the very first encounter an enemy whipped out an Uzi and shot at me. My response was "well, I'll pull out my pistol and shoot back", which got me a lot of incredulous looks from my much-more-familiar-with-the-system friends, and one says "Aren't you going to DODGE?" And really all I can say to that is "Well, FUCKERS, nobody told me that I have the ability to DODGE BULLETS here."

You play a system enough, you do start to take "common knowledge" for granted.
User avatar
Holman
Posts: 28907
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:00 pm
Location: Between the Schuylkill and the Wissahickon

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Holman »

I'm planning to introduce my kids to D&D, but I haven't DM'd a game since about 1985.

I stumbled across this useful thread over at BGG. There's some good advice there, especially on the importance of describing everything and keeping it vivid.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43496
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Blackhawk »

I started the 'introduce my kids to RPGs' plan several years ago by buying them the D&D adventure games - Castle Ravenloft, Legend of Drizzt, Wrath of Ashardalon. It had the dual benefit of introducing the kids to basic RPG mechanics (hit rolls, hit points, movement, etc.) and getting all of us hooked on board games.

When I actually sit down and start RPGing with them, I may use Savage Worlds rather than D&D (although I will be looking closely at 5E.)
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

One thing this 5e Starter Set has cemented for me is that for the time being, prepared adventures are the way to go. I like the idea of making up my own adventures and having the freedom to do whatever I want, but for me to prepare anything comparable to this would take weeks. The amount of content in the included module is amazing.
User avatar
hentzau
Posts: 15093
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:06 am
Location: Castle Zenda, Ruritania

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by hentzau »

The starter set is worth it for the adventure alone. IMO. :)
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

About four hours in, this has been at times entertaining, instructive, and exasperating. I've had moments of huge excitement and fun, as well as times of "fuck it, I'm done". Some highlights:

1. It's surprising to me how many RPG behaviors are learned. Early on in this adventure, the party will find itself following a trail, on which several traps have been set. My kids had NO IDEA that "searching for traps" was a thing.

2. It's hard for them to get into the role-playing part of RPGs because they're still so hung up on loot. When they finally made it to the first town, they were introduced to the shopkeeper to whom they were delivering a wagon load of goods. Later, they find themselves at an inn. There are dozens of hooks in the adventure book for the people they meet and the conversations and information they can uncover. None of which mattered, because all they cared about was shopping for new stuff (my 9-year-old almost spent half his fortune on a signet ring) and arguing about who's going to pay the bill for their overnight stay at the inn. This ties into #1, I think. They have no idea that "talking to people" is a thing.

3. Role playing with my 5-year-old is pointless, he couldn't care less about the story parts. Give him a die and tell him what to roll. However, he's worth it for the character entertainment alone. His fighter started out named "AquaVader", because he couldn't decide between the superhero and Star Wars themes. Last night he decided he would henceforth be known as "Tornado Twister Twist". He spent our entire session asking me how to spell "Tornado Twister Twist" while he wrote it all over his character sheet.

4. The concepts of risk, consequences, and character death are clearly very nebulous and their attitude is very much "can't happen to me". Despite numerous gentle warnings, they have no problem continuing through the dungeon into the final lair with only 5 hit points and no spells left. I don't want to slaughter them, but their arrogance is somewhat affronting. Two of them have been reduced to 0 hit points but so far they've avoided making death saving throws. I blame video games and their mollycoddling difficulties.

5. That said, my eldest is an absolute beast with a d20. He's playing an archery-based fighter, has a +7 attack bonus with his longbow, and has an uncanny knack for rolling 14+ on a d20. Every freaking time. When I say "roll to hit", the first word out of his mouth is almost always "twenty".
User avatar
coopasonic
Posts: 20969
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Dallas-ish

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by coopasonic »

Boudreaux wrote:5. That said, my eldest is an absolute beast with a d20. He's playing an archery-based fighter, has a +7 attack bonus with his longbow, and has an uncanny knack for rolling 14+ on a d20. Every freaking time. When I say "roll to hit", the first word out of his mouth is almost always "twenty".
Check your copy of Formula D, you may be missing the 5th gear die.
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Isgrimnur
Posts: 82093
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:29 am
Location: Chookity pok
Contact:

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Isgrimnur »

:lol:
It's almost as if people are the problem.
User avatar
hentzau
Posts: 15093
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:06 am
Location: Castle Zenda, Ruritania

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by hentzau »

coopasonic wrote:
Boudreaux wrote:5. That said, my eldest is an absolute beast with a d20. He's playing an archery-based fighter, has a +7 attack bonus with his longbow, and has an uncanny knack for rolling 14+ on a d20. Every freaking time. When I say "roll to hit", the first word out of his mouth is almost always "twenty".
Check your copy of Formula D, you may be missing the 5th gear die.
Wow. That's...that's BRILLIANT!!!
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
User avatar
Zarathud
Posts: 16435
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:29 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Zarathud »

When explaining the concept of a pit trap to my 7 year old last night, her reaction was that she'd just walk on wooden planks throughout the whole dungeon.

And if anyone attacks her castle (in Castle Panic), she asked "where are the Rainbow Gems on the Castle Walls that shoot rainbows to kill the bad guys before they break down the doors?" All in her matter of fact, Dad's so stupid he can't fix this by himself, little voice.

I am tempted to pull out Tomb of Horrors to see how she solves it.
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." - Albert Einstein
"I don't stand by anything." - Trump
“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” - John Stuart Mill, Inaugural Address Delivered to the University of St Andrews, 2/1/1867
“It is the impractical things in this tumultuous hell-scape of a world that matter most. A book, a name, chicken soup. They help us remember that, even in our darkest hour, life is still to be savored.” - Poe, Altered Carbon
User avatar
Blackhawk
Posts: 43496
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 pm
Location: Southwest Indiana

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Blackhawk »

Boudreaux wrote:
2. It's hard for them to get into the role-playing part of RPGs because they're still so hung up on loot. When they finally made it to the first town, they were introduced to the shopkeeper to whom they were delivering a wagon load of goods. Later, they find themselves at an inn. There are dozens of hooks in the adventure book for the people they meet and the conversations and information they can uncover. None of which mattered, because all they cared about was shopping for new stuff (my 9-year-old almost spent half his fortune on a signet ring) and arguing about who's going to pay the bill for their overnight stay at the inn. This ties into #1, I think. They have no idea that "talking to people" is a thing.
Try a variation of what I did to teach my kids about the role playing elements in RPGs. Read over some material so it is fresh in your mind and take them for a drive. Roleplay the inn in the car with no character sheets and no dice. It's late, so the merchants are closed.
(˙pǝsɹǝʌǝɹ uǝǝq sɐɥ ʎʇıʌɐɹƃ ʃɐuosɹǝd ʎW)
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

Blackhawk wrote:Try a variation of what I did to teach my kids about the role playing elements in RPGs. Read over some material so it is fresh in your mind and take them for a drive. Roleplay the inn in the car with no character sheets and no dice. It's late, so the merchants are closed.
That's an interesting idea. The entire concept of role playing is still a little shaky for them, I think. They're picking up on the idea of "no real rules for what you want to try, if you can think of it you can try it". But the idea that role playing is much more than non-stop fighting is new.
coopasonic wrote:Check your copy of Formula D, you may be missing the 5th gear die.
Hah! He's had a couple of stupid fails, or I'd think you might be on to something. I'm still waiting for him to roll a 1 so he can shoot himself. He's so smug with the humongous die rolls that I can't wait for the opportunity to take him down a notch, impartial DM or no.
User avatar
coopasonic
Posts: 20969
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Dallas-ish

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by coopasonic »

He rolls a regular die once in a while when it doesn't really matter just to keep you off guard.
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

Update!! I've been tied up with a lot of work lately so we haven't played a ton, but we're probably a third of the way through the starter set module. The adventurers are up to level 3 and are not quite so fragile that I have to constantly scale down the threat. It's much easier now, I can just take an encounter and reduce the number of monsters a bit, and it works out pretty well.

The local ruffian group calling themselves the Redbrands has been dealt with, although their apparent leader escaped unharmed. Clues point to a much larger situation brewing at local Cragmaw Castle, and the band of heroes is trying to find out where this mysterious lair can be found. They're still struggling a bit with the role-playing part, but it's getting better. Their minds take them off in really wild tangents, and they keep bumbling into fun situations they don't expect. In a recent conversation, they were talking to a local merchant who is described in the module as "sharp-tongued". I decided to play her as an intelligent, no-nonsense woman who doesn't suffer fools. She also happens to be the only merchant in town who sells weapons. When they came in and started cracking jokes and making fun of her, I decided to completely shut them down and have her kick them out of the store. They spent the next ten minutes trying to get back into her good graces, and it was kind of fun in a slightly mean way to have their attitudes bite them in the ass.

They're definitely getting better at it. We ended our last session in the ruins of Thundertree, where a green dragon has taken up residence. I'm having all the NPCs give dire warnings about the dragon, even though one really does want them to drive it off, in order to make it clear they're not ready. (Looking at the dragon's stats, they're REALLY not ready. It would tear them apart.) My 12-year-old is playing a character with two interesting hooks, though - #1, his bond is to his ancestral home of Thundertree (dunh dunh DUHHHH) which he has vowed to see restored to glory. #2, he is optimistic to the point of ignoring his own faults and shortcomings. At the end of our session, he was bound and determined to go after the dragon, which led to much arguing with his much more level-headed 9-year-old elf wizard brother. They went back and forth, and the younger kid never quite realized that his older brother, who appeared to be insanely suicidal, was actually role-playing his character.

I was proud. I'm not sure how yet, but this will be rewarded.
User avatar
hentzau
Posts: 15093
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:06 am
Location: Castle Zenda, Ruritania

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by hentzau »

The starter set module is a great series of adventures. I really do wish that all future D&D modules would follow the format for this one...main adventure thread with tons of side adventures (and the side adventures are more than just a couple of lines, like they used to do with their "adventure hooks".)
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
User avatar
IceBear
Posts: 12519
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:58 pm

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by IceBear »

They didn't. The two Tyranny of Dragons adventures have almost universally panned for being too railroady. There are several webpages dedicated to "fixing" Horde of the Dragon Queen and many people who have just abandoned it. BTW, I don't think it's actually WotC doing the adventures as their design team is tiny right now...I think Kobold Press did them (think)
User avatar
Boudreaux
Posts: 2816
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Boudreaux »

At this rate, the starter set module will keep us busy all winter long. There's still tons of content for them to get through. Hopefully by the time it's complete, they'll either want to re-start with new characters or there will be plenty of new adventures out.

I picked up the Player's Handbook in hopes of giving them some more information to dig into and inspire them. So far they haven't paid it much attention, but maybe if we get the campaign going a little stronger this winter they'll get into it. I'm wondering how valuable the DM Guide is, particularly if I don't plan to make my own content. I'm also really feeling the need for a good DM screen.
User avatar
hentzau
Posts: 15093
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:06 am
Location: Castle Zenda, Ruritania

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by hentzau »

I picked up Hoard of the Dragon Queen and only made it about a quarter of the way through before I got bored reading it.

I really do wish they could do something as neat as the Pathfinder Adventure Paths. I really enjoy those. I wish they would release Skull and Shackle in a single volume, I would convert it over to 5E.
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
User avatar
Fishbelly
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:10 am
Location: Conroe, TX (north of Houston)

Re: D&D 5e - Adventure/Module question

Post by Fishbelly »

I picked up Hoard of the Dragon Queen and only made it about a quarter of the way through before I got bored reading it.
Same here. I was highly disappointed after the pleasant surprise of the starter adventure.
Post Reply