Kickstarter 2015-2016 - Mostly Tabletop, but we aren't picky

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:57 pm

240 bucks is a bit ridiculous. I hesitate at a hundred even.

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:07 pm

I've let myself accept $100-150. When it starts to go above that, I have to back away. I don't play enough to warrant that kind of expense.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:20 pm

baelthazar wrote:
Lordnine wrote:If anyone is interested, The Gods War (new game from Sandy Peterson/Cthulhu Wars) just launched.

I'm interested but cant get behind their pricing model this time around. The base game only support four players out of the box and I usually have five minimum. The only player expansion option includes three factions and costs more than the base game.
Clearly that pricing reflects the mistakes they made with Cthulhu Wars. That being said, WAY too rich for my blood, particularly as the game accomplishes the same stuff as CW but with an unfamiliar (for me) theme.

I can understand wanting to tone back the options from CW (which were ridiculous) but not including a one off faction option when the game is shipping with a 5 player map is just silly. They could even limit it to be a specific pack in faction, no choice, you get THIS 5th faction.

Of course, that said, not doing the above saved me probably $160 so maybe I should be grateful?

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:31 pm

I typed up a response summarizing one of the comments. Then realized I'd be better off just quoting the comment:

Robert Affection about 2 hours ago
I've just pledged in at the core level hoping to expand later. As one of those with a smaller wallet than many I feel one of the key problems for me is the need to buy all in big packages for expansion. For instance there are four factions in the set but it allows play up to five. A good way of making us all jump in a purchase a fifth but instead of giving us three separate factions at say $35-40 each which would make me say well I do need that extra faction, which one should I have, you have lumped them in to one big expensive set and my reaction to that is: yeah it would nice to have the variety but that's a lot of money I could be spending elsewhere. The same with the elder. If sets where smaller so I could pick and choose, I'd easily find myself pushing the limits. An Empire here, a few Elder there some Monsters etc would give many more options and temptations to buy. Its also something to think about for retail. How many people expect to pay more for an expansion than for the original game, but three expansions for a third of the cost is reasonable and allows people to spread the expenditure around there own interests, it also extends the retail life of the product as those of us who are not in the position to go all out will be encouraged to keep going back to add a little bit more each month which will greatly enhance the possibility of further retail products down the line.

I thought that summed it up quite a bit. If they did something more along the lines of Shadows of Brimstone (with their add-ons, not their fulfillment approach), then I might be willing to take a look. But otherwise it is simply way more than I'm willing to commit.

Harkonis · Post by **Harkonis** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:26 pm

Put together my 'print and play' set for Hero Realms and played a few games today with HellSpawn. Was quite fun and as I thought I definitely enjoyed it more than Star Realms. I like the theme better for one, but the cards seem more even yet more powerful at the same time. Also there is plenty of buy power in the starting deck so that helps not stall early as well. Stuff happens early and keeps happening until done.

Fishbelly · Post by **Fishbelly** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:29 pm

Lordnine wrote:If anyone is interested, The Gods War (new game from Sandy Peterson/Cthulhu Wars) just launched.

I'm interested but cant get behind their pricing model this time around. The base game only support four players out of the box and I usually have five minimum. The only player expansion option includes three factions and costs more than the base game.

Count me in. I love the world of Glorantha and have lamented the fact I was unable to back Cthulhu Wars. I may not be able to afford more than the core set, but I can't let this go by. Heck, my oldest boardgame is Dragon Pass, the first look at Glorantha. Can't wait.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:24 pm

Tempted, but I was more entranced by the game shelves behind Sandy Petersen in his Q&A. We're talking 80s classics: Borderlands, Battlesystem, Top Secret, Dunegonquest, Marvel Super Heroes, Star Frontiers, Dawn Patrol, Paranoia (1st and 2nd edition), tons of Glorantha and RuneQuest, Vikings, Ravenloft, and tons of classic D&D modules.

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:52 am

Holy hell, the price tag on that thing makes absolutely no sense to me. The base game is $125, plus $32 shipping to the US? In order to be able to play with the full player count the base game supports, it's $240 plus $45 in shipping? My brain broke.

I mean, I heard really good things about Cthulhu Wars too, and I'd love to play it, but the prices Petersen's asking for his games is just beyond the realm of sanity.

I dunno, I guess I'm just not hardcore enough of a gamer to be able to wrap my head around the new trend of board game prices start at $100 and go way up, and this is reasonable.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:28 am

Likewise I am out on Monte Cook Game's Invisible Sun. $196 for a tabletop RPG?!?! Sorry Monte...I might have backed your other games but that's too much for me (especially since that's more like $260 Canadian and then shipping)

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:43 am

Since Kickstarter has seemingly transitioned from "help me get my dream project off the ground" to simply a preorder system (at least for board games), I get the feeling that game companies are trying to see how far they can push the envelope on pricing right now. I'm hoping that eventually they'll settle on a reasonable price range, but as long as folks buy up anything that has lots of miniatures*, it may take a while.

*myself included

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:44 am

The fact that they decided to make Gods War 3-player minimum like Cthulhu Wars makes my decision easy. I rarely get my group together and when we do, we plan to focus on CW (since almost all of us had babies within a month of each other, I assume the meetups will be even less frequent).

The only problem I see is that CW availability seemed fairly limited outside of Kickstarter backers. I hate the new trend of "if you do not back this you may not be able to get it retail." I sort of feel this is the plan for Gods War too, and that really aggravates my Fear of Missing Out.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:35 pm

baelthazar wrote:
The only problem I see is that CW availability seemed fairly limited outside of Kickstarter backers. I hate the new trend of "if you do not back this you may not be able to get it retail." I sort of feel this is the plan for Gods War too, and that really aggravates my Fear of Missing Out.

Well, that is kind of the point of a real Kickstarter versus a big publisher Kickstarter. You are allowing a niche product to get made that probably wouldn’t make it to market otherwise.

Also, Cthulhu Wars does apparently have proper two player rules now if that interests you. I haven’t tried them but they seemed well received. I believe they are shipping with Onslaught 2 but if you go on BGG you can find them easily enough.

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:27 pm

baelthazar wrote:The fact that they decided to make Gods War 3-player minimum like Cthulhu Wars makes my decision easy. I rarely get my group together and when we do, we plan to focus on CW (since almost all of us had babies within a month of each other, I assume the meetups will be even less frequent).

The only problem I see is that CW availability seemed fairly limited outside of Kickstarter backers. I hate the new trend of "if you do not back this you may not be able to get it retail." I sort of feel this is the plan for Gods War too, and that really aggravates my Fear of Missing Out.

The massive price points they're setting for these games compounds the availability problem. When you do a game with massive (unnecessary) plastic bits, then have to price it at $150 retail, you're now selling to an extremely limited market. There's a fair to good chance that the majority of the people willing to pay that price for your game are the same ones backing the Kickstarter. Now producing more copies than were backed is a risk. Not only may you have already saturated your market, but stores are less likely to want to order in bulk, because guessing wrong means they're sitting on some super expensive stock. So these types of games wind up being sort of "preorder only".

I still think that they'd do much better if they made a "base" version at a sub-$100 price point that used cardboard tokens instead of massive hunks of plastic, then offered the plastic bits as a "bling out your game" bundle. That allows the Uncle Pennybags people to have their huge shiny bits, but also keeps the base game within the reach of us poor people, and would probably result in higher sales volumes.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:27 pm

It depends on the designer. Sandy Peterson is making luxury versions for games exploiting genres which have a rich history and fan loyalty. He's not indicative of the industry.

CMON is going to rely on Kickstarter exclusives and massive plastic, but also have a leaner retail experience. That's their thing.

I liked how OGRE Deluxe was upfront that the Kickstarter was going to be a one-time gross indulgence, with the goal of rewarding longtime fans and restarting development of the thinner OGRE product line. I just wish I realized how massive the box would be!

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:44 pm

...still want to play that one.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:46 pm

Chaz wrote: I still think that they'd do much better if they made a "base" version at a sub-$100 price point that used cardboard tokens instead of massive hunks of plastic, then offered the plastic bits as a "bling out your game" bundle. That allows the Uncle Pennybags people to have their huge shiny bits, but also keeps the base game within the reach of us poor people, and would probably result in higher sales volumes.

It might result in more volume but not necessarily more money in the long run.

I’ve actually been working of getting a board game made. From talking to production companies multiple versions is not viable for most indie developers. If you were to go this route you are going to be footing the bill of nearly another full version of the game. To give you an idea, the estimated production costs for my game is close to $40,000 before shipping costs. (Shipping is the scariest part of this by the way)

If I were to make an optional version of the game, with different components, I could get it added in for about an additional $25,000 BUT that would require that I order at least another 5,000 units of that extra version. It's gambling at that point because if you don't get enough orders for the bonus version you still have to pay in full and might end up with more stock than you can sell.

Now this was based on simple components, better card stock, and a few more wooden pieces. Getting miniatures produced is stupidly expensive to the extent that you would be ATLEAST doubling the production cost of the base version.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:06 pm

Yeah, that's what I *thought* they were doing for the Walking Dead No Sanctuary game -- there was a $40 "base set" that only uses tokens and chits but the super mega funzone KS version (with stretch goals) was starting at $75, more realisticially $125 with an expansion. I'd assumed the $40 was for big-box retail (i.e. copies at Target and Wal-Mart) and the $75+ copies were for KS lunatics (present company excluded) that toss money at anything with miniatures. From what I understand now, using cardboard tokens isn't necessarily as cheap as a miniatures-based game because of the artwork and cardboard stock - if you want quality components. I guess the point was made that having two separate SKUs - one cardboard based and one miniatures based was insane (from a support/pricing perspective).

Regardless, I've said it before and I'll say it again -- I do feel like we've crossed a KS line. Without question, every KS project I've backed that is miniatures based (other than Zombicide S2) has either been (1) late or (2) of lesser quality than I expected. I cannot imagine a $125+shipping KS miniatures project is anything but a game that will only be available to KS backers and possibly the few retail backers that purchase on speculation.

I still can't get my mind around what Icebear shared for the Monte Cook RPG KS. That also seems excessive, but I guess when you're looking at ~$30-50 a book, anything is possible.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:54 pm

The Hostage Negotiator KS is ending in like 5 hours, and for a solo only card, dice (and meeple) game, I'm pretty surprised at how much money they raised - almost 4x as much as the original. They've unlocked all the possible stretch goals at this point, so everything else is just gravy for them. Really looking forward to this one.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:35 pm

I ended up funding the all you can eat version of hostage negotiator which has the original, all the expansions, the new game and various odds and ends. The meeples look like they're taking a dump which appeals to my purile sense of humor.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:08 pm

One of the meeples for the final unlock looks like a modern day interpretation of Steven Seagal, all puffy and tired. IMHO it's a must have item for my desk.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:59 am

Smoove_B wrote:
I still can't get my mind around what Icebear shared for the Monte Cook RPG KS. That also seems excessive, but I guess when you're looking at ~$30-50 a book, anything is possible.

From what I can see of the Invisible Sun promo video it's not a series of books like PHB, DMG, MM etc. Traditional I back those at the Digital Fan level for $50 and get 3 or 4 books / adventures in pdf form (Captain, the bookshelves can't handle the load of another book). This one is supposedly a theater of the mind RPG but comes in a box with a board and tokens to facilitate play. No digital version. I guess it's actually a rpg board game but unlike Descent which is tilted more towards board game this one is more RPG with the board used as a rpg tool (like dice traditional are)

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:22 am

Smoove_B wrote:One of the meeples for the final unlock looks like a modern day interpretation of Steven Seagal, all puffy and tired. IMHO it's a must have item for my desk.

The best part of that trailer is watching him hold his gun like it's a cannoli he wants to devour.

At first I thought I was watching Dom Deluise in a remake of the Borne Identity. Then I remembered he was dead...and that even in that state he's probably a better actor.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:30 am

IceBear wrote: From what I can see of the Invisible Sun promo video it's not a series of books like PHB, DMG, MM etc. Traditional I back those at the Digital Fan level for $50 and get 3 or 4 books / adventures in pdf form (Captain, the bookshelves can't handle the load of another book). This one is supposedly a theater of the mind RPG but comes in a box with a board and tokens to facilitate play. No digital version. I guess it's actually a rpg board game but unlike Descent which is tilted more towards board game this one is more RPG with the board used as a rpg tool (like dice traditional are)

I'll look again - I was going by the FAQ which stated (when asked why it was so expensive):

It's a deluxe game with a lot of components—4 books, hundreds of cards, a board, a resin sculpture, a medallion, and more. Like all MCG products, it will be jammed-packed with gorgeous art and mind-blowing content.

I figured the 4 books was part of it but also recognize that paying artists for their work as well likely elevates cost.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:49 am

Smoove_B wrote:
IceBear wrote: From what I can see of the Invisible Sun promo video it's not a series of books like PHB, DMG, MM etc. Traditional I back those at the Digital Fan level for $50 and get 3 or 4 books / adventures in pdf form (Captain, the bookshelves can't handle the load of another book). This one is supposedly a theater of the mind RPG but comes in a box with a board and tokens to facilitate play. No digital version. I guess it's actually a rpg board game but unlike Descent which is tilted more towards board game this one is more RPG with the board used as a rpg tool (like dice traditional are)
I'll look again - I was going by the FAQ which stated (when asked why it was so expensive):

It's a deluxe game with a lot of components—4 books, hundreds of cards, a board, a resin sculpture, a medallion, and more. Like all MCG products, it will be jammed-packed with gorgeous art and mind-blowing content.
I figured the 4 books was part of it but also recognize that paying artists for their work as well likely elevates cost.

Ah, I was looking at the video and those 4 books looked more like pamphlets to me, but looking at it again, they weren't as thin as I first thought.

I backed their The Strange and Numenera kickstarters and I did get more than 4 books in those (plus, digital cards, etc) for $50. Granted they were digital, but I believe the physical stuff was around $75-100.
This one, the lowest tier is $196 which, I'm sorry - given I've barely got the other systems on our gaming table - it's not worth it. Guess I'm a little bitter that it's a physical only kickstarter...would have been a no brainer for me if they had some digital version for under $100, but $260 Cdn (and then $40-80 for shipping) makes me a sad RPG-want-to-buyer

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:16 pm

Well crap... idiot me just made the connection that The Gods War Glorantha universe is the same universe as King of Dragon Pass. Now it is (slightly) back on my radar...

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:35 pm

It's earlier in the lore, I think. I was tempted until I saw the Gods.

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:54 pm

Just took a look at the Invisible Sun KS to see what the fuss was about. $200 is pretty steep. But what actually irks me more is that Retailers get the game for half that. I understand that they will want to mark it up in order to make a profit, but that seems a little ridiculous. Sure, if you go in as an individual, you get the "Sun-based secret", whatever that is. But assuming that isn't worth $50-100, it seems like it would be smarter to just wait for it to hit retail and then buy it. I'm guessing that a lot of retailers are going to put it on sale for less than a 100% markup.

Though, I guess the best approach would be to find a retailer that is willing to put in a pledge for you and 2 friends (or a friend that is a retailer).

I'm kind of surprised that there aren't more backers doing that. I bet that most FLGS would be willing to assist.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:59 pm

TheMix wrote:Just took a look at the Invisible Sun KS to see what the fuss was about. $200 is pretty steep. But what actually irks me more is that Retailers get the game for half that. I understand that they will want to mark it up in order to make a profit, but that seems a little ridiculous. Sure, if you go in as an individual, you get the "Sun-based secret", whatever that is. But assuming that isn't worth $50-100, it seems like it would be smarter to just wait for it to hit retail and then buy it. I'm guessing that a lot of retailers are going to put it on sale for less than a 100% markup.

Though, I guess the best approach would be to find a retailer that is willing to put in a pledge for you and 2 friends (or a friend that is a retailer).

I'm kind of surprised that there aren't more backers doing that. I bet that most FLGS would be willing to assist.

Yeah, if I had people wanting to go in on it with me I'd do that. Someone was saying they have 6 of them and if all they did was play the 12 scenarios included it would work out to $7.50 each per hour of entertainment, which would make sense. Unfortunately, I'm the guy that gets the new RPG stuff in my group (rest are still running AD&D 2nd Edition) and given that my group is reluctant to even *try* something new it's too risky for me to buy it (but god help me, I want to because I must have new and shiny RPG)

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:01 pm

My problem is that I never played them. I loved reading the new stuff, but I never had friends to play with. Well... not since high school, at least. Plus, I'm not really DM/GM material. I need to be a player. So that makes buying new stuff even sillier.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:30 pm

I know at-least one person backed Scythe here. If you want to further deck out your copy you can back the latest Meeple Source KS here.

Upgrades the cardboard encounter tokens to wood and also replaces the cardboard bits from the upcoming Scythe expansion. $8 so it wont break the bank. They also have a tier option for painted resource replacements if you didn't get the premium resources in the collectors edition.

This is the third time I've backed Meeple Source. I like their work.

Chrisoc13 · Post by **Chrisoc13** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:18 am

I'm intrigued by the scythe tokens. A lot of their meeples seem to be worse for games though (like the codename meeples... Wtf.. ). But some of them are intriguing so I'm taking a look. What's the quality like?

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:29 am

I’ve never had a problem with quality. The first set I backed from them was for the Lords of Waterdeep meeples, which were quite overpriced but I can’t deny add a lot of flavor to what is a pretty dry game.

I've also backed for Mansions of Madness and Dead of Winter in the past. I’m very happy with all of them. The only thing to keep in mind is if you go for any actual meeple(human) components remember that they will be quite cartoony, so make sure you think it fits the theme of the game.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:04 pm

hepcat wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:One of the meeples for the final unlock looks like a modern day interpretation of Steven Seagal, all puffy and tired. IMHO it's a must have item for my desk.
The best part of that trailer is watching him hold his gun like it's a cannoli he wants to devour.

At first I thought I was watching Dom Deluise in a remake of the Borne Identity. Then I remembered he was dead...and that even in that state he's probably a better actor.

(1:48:) "I'm not all about the money... I'm all about the honor."

I'd totally back a Kickstarter of Dom DeLuise saying just those two lines.

Stretch goal:

Spoiler:

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:30 pm

My Secret Hitler set arrived today. Everything looks great.

I went in for the elaborate wooden case, on which (given its weight and polish) they must surely have lost money. Also included were a few bonus stickers (including Dictator Trump) and a long pamphlet straight-history comic on the rise of Adolf Hitler.

The game components themselves are top-notch. Cards are hefty and the play boards are thick and well-done. I'm planning a party in about a week to try this with 10 people.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:58 pm

This also updates my very selective and careful Kickstarter history.

Kickstarters Received:

To Be or Nor to Be: That is the the Adventure - (Book) Ryan North's choose-your-own-adventure version of Hamlet. Really funny, dense, and well done.
The Guns of Gettysburg - (tabletop) Excellent ACW wargame from the brilliant designer of Napoleon's Triumph.
Darkest Dungeon - (PC) You've played it, you love it. The art and style are top notch.
Night Witches - (tabletop) Narrative WW2-Soviet-Feminist RPG from the designer of Fiasco.
Twilight Struggle - (PC and iOS) Electronic implementation of the political boardgame.
Secret Hitler - (tabletop) Werewolf in the Reichstag.

Not Yet Released:

Stonehearth - (PC) Minecraft meets Dwarf Fortress Lite? Could be good, but now it's long overdue.
That Which Sleeps - (PC) 4x-ish strategy as an evil elder god. Project dragging, possibly collapsing.
Battletech - (PC) Turn-based strategy in the classic Battletech universe. Previews look great.

Outrageous Offenses:

Up Front - (tabletop) I got scammed for $125. Perpetrator still at large.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:53 pm

Secret Hitler is a fun party game. I had the chance to play it a while back, we had I think 12 people and it still managed to go pretty fast and was well received by almost everyone.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:26 pm

The Meeple source kickstarter now includes options for painted Scythe meeples as well. I'm seriously tempted although wish they had gone with a more serious art style on them.

You can also apparently pre-order the expansion through them, first place I'm aware of to get it.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:09 pm

Resistance fading.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:31 pm

Just backed the fidget cube. Actually two of them. It'll come in handy for those calls I'm giving cpr instructions for 30 minutes. And for Mrs tjg when she's in meetings.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:54 am

Thornwatch from Penny Arcade live on Kickstarter.