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Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

All discussions regarding Electronic, Board, Card, and RPG Gaming, including industry discussion, that don't belong in one of the other gaming forums.

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baelthazar
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Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by baelthazar » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:04 pm

Ok, so this is a silly thread designed to either get me to spend or not spend money. I am hankering for a Star Trek game after playing some (fairly weak) Star Trek trivia game and looking over Star Trek Risk. Right now I am considering Star Trek Frontiers or Star Trek Ascendancy. I know some of you have some experience with these games, so I thought I would see what people thought.

First, two problems that may mean I should not buy either - I rarely have 3 players (so ST:A will be hard to get to the table) and I completely bounced off of Mageknight (probably more to do with theme than anything). I also bounced off of Fleet Captains, but that was more due to time and lack of other players. That said, I am a pretty avid Trekkie, so theme means a lot to me. I also am a huge fan of Twilight Imperium and the rules for ST:A seem like a more streamlined version of a game like that.

Anyone play either if these (*cough* Hepcat *cough*) and have any thoughts on them? I know ST:F can be solo played, and that is highly enticing. That said, a Star Trek-themed strategy game would certainly resonate with my gaming friends (Lovecraft, Star Trek, and Star Wars are all winners). So both games, in theory, look interesting.

I am also willing to entertain other Star Trek related suggestions for good, soloable games.

EDIT: I just realized my avatar made some of the explanation about my love of Trek unnecessary.

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by TheMix » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:08 pm

We just got a copy of Star Trek Panic. It's fairly light complexity, but not as easy as Castle Panic. If you want something quick and easy (to learn), then you might check it out.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by YellowKing » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:17 pm

Star Trek: Frontiers is fantastic thematically, but I hesitate to recommend it wholeheartedly if you didn't like Mage Knight. It's basically the same game, albeit slightly streamlined and with a Star Trek theme placed on top. That said, I really enjoyed the complexity of it once it all clicked. My only complaint about the game is that the game sessions can stretch 3 hours or more very easily - unless you have a good place to put it to pause and resume or just have unlimited time to play, it's tough to justify getting it on the table. As far as soloability, though, it's probably the best Trek game out there.

Star Trek Panic is another good suggestion, but I haven't played that one yet. All of the "Panic" games are fairly light, though, so it's kind of the opposite end of the spectrum from Frontiers.

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Anonymous Bosch » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:26 pm

If you're familiar with the Mage Knight board game, I suggest watching the Box of Delights Star Trek: Frontiers play-throughs, as they'll give you a great feel for exactly how the game plays, and if it's your cuppa.

BTW, as excellent as the underlying mechanics are, I was never a fan of the Mage Knight board game myself, primarily because of the theme. To me, Mage Knight was a very good game with a theme, but not a very thematic game. Star Trek: Frontiers is a significant improvement in that regard, and plays much more thematically. I find the brain-burning, puzzle-y nature of the game fits more thoroughly and naturally with my notion of a Starship Captain using diplomacy and devising shrewd tactics and manoeuvres than a knight supposedly battling beasties.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Holman » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:14 pm

If there's wargamer in you, try Federation Commander. It's a detailed hex-and-counter game of tactical Trek ship combat. The gameplay really puts you at the bridge-command level.

(I remember trying to wrap my head around the Star Fleet Battles rules phonebook back in 6th grade. FC provides all of the essential mechanics and the same experience but with much less overhead, and it keeps it all moving as it should.)

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by hentzau » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:52 pm

I love the Star Trek:TOS Deck Building Game. It's out of print now, but you may be able to find it fairly cheaply. It wasn't a big hit. But I really liked it.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Montag » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:28 pm

hentzau wrote:I love the Star Trek:TOS Deck Building Game. It's out of print now, but you may be able to find it fairly cheaply. It wasn't a big hit. But I really liked it.
I grabbed a couple from Half Price Books maybe two years ago now.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by hepcat » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:41 pm

While I own and quite enjoy Star Trek Frontiers, I have to say that Ascendancy is the game all Star Trek fans who have always wanted a grand strategy game set in Roddenberry's universe have been waiting for all these years. It's a long game, yes. And it does have a slight learning curve (although I would say it's less than Frontiers). But it really captures the feel of that franchise to an extent I didn't think I'd ever see. Warp speed feels and plays like warp speed, and the modular map with star systems that can be moved until fixed by two space lanes simulates exploration in a completely new and unique fashion.

The Cardassians and Ferengi races are coming in a month or so, and future expansions are mostly going to be even more races (even the Tholians), so it's only going to get better.

For an entirely thematic, albeit uneven gaming experience, Star Trek Fleet Captains is a great game. In spite of all its flaws, each time you play you feel like you're playing through a season of one of the shows. But again, a bit of an uneven game is behind that fantastic theme.

Edit: Oh, and "boldly going forward 'cause we can't find reverse." You ain't the only one who used to listen to Dr. Demento. :wink:
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Zarathud » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:05 am

I'm with hepcat. Ascendancy is a very fun game and the definite choice if you want conflict or a conquest/exploration game. Go out and explore brave new worlds for your new empire and a buffer zone against the Klingons or Romulans. Because there will be war....

The Star Trek deck builder might be a better choice if you wanted an episode based game experience. You need the Science crew in hand for certain missions, or the Diplomatic crew for others. There were nice mechanics and choices for how the characters upgraded, but I was never very good at it. Too many mismatched bridge crews make for a painful ending.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by baelthazar » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:01 am

The Youtube videos Bosch suggested are helping me think about Frontiers. I was mystified by Mage Knight, but that run through makes the game look manageable, albeit fiddly (which I expected).

I really really want Ascendancy, but I just hardly ever have three players and three hours. I am glad to hear that it is an excellent strategy game with Star Trek flair. I wish it could be played with two players (I would have jumped on it immediately if that were the case).

As for deck builders, I have plenty of those to solo play, not to mention the Arkham Horror LCG. This may sound weird, but I really want something with the ships for that visceral "moving around a space map" feeling. The card games just don't have the same effect.

I used to own Fleet Captains, but the production quality was so low and the game itself just failed to impress me. As you said Hep, the theme was super strong but the mechanics just did very little to wow me.

The other issue is I am trying to decide if I should go "all in" for the Arkham Horror: LCG. The Dunwhich expansion is coming and I really can't justify both. At this point, having a cool soloable ST themed game is a stronger draw than my perfect ST 4X that I will just sit and look at on the shelf.

Thanks for the advice and such. I knew you guys would help out! And I also knew Hep would not disappoint and would recognize the thread title!

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Anonymous Bosch » Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:03 am

baelthazar wrote:The Youtube videos Bosch suggested are helping me think about Frontiers. I was mystified by Mage Knight, but that run through makes the game look manageable, albeit fiddly (which I expected).
Glad to hear you found them useful. Here's a couple of additional tips for enhancing gameplay with Star Trek: Frontiers:

Firstly, in terms of improving some of the more fiddly aspects of the game (namely, its default components). If you can afford it, I'd recommend indulging in the nifty Litko Star Trek: Frontiers Game Upgrade Set, which helps make for a much more intuitive experience:
Litko.net wrote:ST: Frontiers, Game Upgrade Set (145)

Enlarge Image
(click to embiggen)

Set of 144 tokens and 1 dial.

Designed for use with the Star Trek: Frontiers* board game.

Complete upgrade set for your game. Upgrade those thin and fiddly cardboard tokens with thick durable and bright acrylic custom cut tokens.

Includes:

12- Command Division data tokens

12- Science Division data tokens

12- Operation Division data tokens

12- Captains Innovation tokens

12- Risk and Improvise data tokens

12- Unknown data tokens

4- Away Team tokens, 1 each of the 4 faction colors

8- Red Shirt Crew Damage tokens

15- Blue faction tokens

15- Yellow faction tokens

15- Purple faction tokens

15- Red faction tokens

1- Game Turn dial
That link is for the complete upgrade set, but you can also purchase the components separately if you prefer (e.g. data tokens, away team tokens, faction tokens, and game round dial). Either way, they're a great improvement over some of the more fiddly components that are included with the game.

Secondly, try using the Away Team Random Missions available on BGG, which add some great thematic flavour to the game's away missions. It's essentially a Word document with 36 away team mission modifications that can be used to supplement normal away team operations in the game. To use 'em, you follow the normal rules in organizing an away team. Except when you reveal the encounter(s), you simultaneously roll two dice. The first die instructs you which sheet to use, while the second tells you which event to apply. So it's a simple and easy improvement to the game that doesn't bog anything down, but adds enjoyable story elements to the away missions.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by hepcat » Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:22 pm

This thread prompted me to start a Frontiers game this afternoon, :D
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by baelthazar » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:33 pm

hepcat wrote:This thread prompted me to start a Frontiers game this afternoon, :D
Well... how did it go!? I need details to get me to buy the game!! Was it a solo-adventure?

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by hepcat » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:52 pm

Solo Conquest. I started around 3 yesterday. Took about a half hour to set it up and then refresh my memory on the game mechanics (it had been a while since I last played). I made it to round 3 before I had to quit for dinner. That was around 5:30. I left it set up though so I can go back to it throughout the week.

I had just discovered the first borg cube, and I had picked up Gowron and Worf for my crew (as well as leveled up a few times, obviously).

One thing I forgot is that they got rid of the rule that crew can absorb damage during a battle. It makes sense in Mage Knight, but doesn't in Frontiers (Worf isn't going to eject himself out an airlock and intercept a photon torpedo, I'm guessing). I was also pleased by the numerous attempts to explain the game's mechanics in the context of theme. For example: to explain why a borg cube draws its "protectors" from the romulan tokens, dominion tokens, etc., they're called "assimilated races".

Looking forward to trying out Bosch's suggestion for Away Teams. I downloaded it before starting my game, but didn't make my way to a suitable planet before calling it a day.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by MythicalMino » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:07 pm

For 2 (or up to 4) players, there is Fleet Captains. I believe the two expansions are now reprinted.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by baelthazar » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:58 pm

MythicalMino wrote:For 2 (or up to 4) players, there is Fleet Captains. I believe the two expansions are now reprinted.
I just was not a fan of FC. The lack of production quality really ruined it for me (those were some really flimsy tiles).

Marco Arnaudo's review has lessened my desire for Frontiers. While he said it was a good game (just like Mage Knight is a good game) he thought the porting to the ST universe was too awkward. I tend to agree that the idea of Picard going around destroying tons of Romulans and razing planets feels more like some odd Mirror Universe scenario than the actual Picard. I guess I could *shudder* only play Lursa and B'Etor or Martok, but that just isn't why I'm drawn to ST:NG.

Now I am trying not to buy something from Games Workshop. But my new Blood Bowl minis have me craving either Warhammer Quest Silver Tower or something WH40K themed!

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by hepcat » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:55 pm

Marco's complaint is a fair one. And I admit to having the same concerns when playing. But there are two Klingon captains in the game, so I just play them. They would have no qualms with assaulting star bases.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Anonymous Bosch » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:42 pm

baelthazar wrote:Marco Arnaudo's review has lessened my desire for Frontiers. While he said it was a good game (just like Mage Knight is a good game) he thought the porting to the ST universe was too awkward. I tend to agree that the idea of Picard going around destroying tons of Romulans and razing planets feels more like some odd Mirror Universe scenario than the actual Picard. I guess I could *shudder* only play Lursa and B'Etor or Martok, but that just isn't why I'm drawn to ST:NG.
While I understand the concern from Star Trek purists, I think much of the consternation over Starfleet "decimating" a planet is largely overblown. At first blush, decimation obviously seems like a rather poor word choice as it relates to Starfleet and the Federation. Still, one could justify it in a literal sense, by imagining the planet were taken over by the Borg, and Picard and co. perhaps believing they were doing them a favour, in a similar vein to Picard himself prior to his discussion with Lily in the First Contact movie. But if the terminolgy rubs one the wrong way as a Starfleet player, one needn't interpret it as the literal destruction of a large proportion of a planet's population. As a Starfleet player, one can simply interpret "decimation" as more of a figure of speech, e.g. using a blockade or the threat of military force to prevent another faction from arming a losing side in a war, or perhaps just making a weighty command decision in a critical situation with devastating consequences on the planet. Even if Starfleet isn't a military organization per se, when confronted with an existential threat during times of war, it's at least conceivable that harsher measures could be in play (after all, many of the greatest episodes of Star Trek revolve around hard decisions that may violate the Prime Directive).

But realistically, in my experience, it's honestly not that much of an issue anyway; the special abilities of Federation players, particularly Picard, favour a diplomatic rather than belligerent strategy. So even a purely rational player who has no interest in 'playing in character' will still decimate far fewer times as Picard than as Martok or Lursa and B'Etor. The decisions a purely thematic player and a purely rational player would make are correlated in Star Trek: Frontiers, which is a crucial aspect of a good thematic game for me. Granted, whether they are correlated to a sufficient degree to satisfy the sensibilities of traditionalist Trekkies is debatable. But for me, the best thematic games are those that grant players the freedom to act out of character, but provide a reward system that corresponds with acting in character, rather than forcing one to act in character by way of arbitrary special rules. Thankfully, Star Trek: Frontiers uses the former approach rather than the latter. For me, the underlying gameplay mechanics are so engaging that any thematic misgivings quickly fall by the wayside.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by baelthazar » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:08 am

The planet thing was only one issue. What got me most in those videos was that every tile had Romulans on it to kill (they were "wandering monsters in MK, I believe). Unless the Federation started some large scale war with the Romulans, why would I be going around killing every Romulan I see? Also, why are Romulans blockading all the outposts and planets? Ok, you can say they are Borg assimilated Romulans, but still, it seems thematically off.

I was also not thrilled with the away mission mechanic. I like the fan-made sheet of away mission modifiers, which adds some story, but turning over a chit and seeing a ST:NG race then deciding if I want to use diplomacy or combat just seems to lack the nuance of the show. It would have made more sense to have some Eldritch Horror style card draw with a story than a flavorless token with numbers.

I may still get it, but those things were disappointing. I loved the card play "puzzle" that you had to do in order to overcome challenges. If anything, that would push me over the edge to get the game (and it made far more sense and connected with me more than MK and its different, mostly boring, spell cards).

All in all, the Star Trek game I really want is Ascendancy, but I lack the gaming group for it. :(

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Isgrimnur » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:56 am

All these posts, and no one has linked the song yet? I am disappoint.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Anonymous Bosch » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:43 am

baelthazar wrote:The planet thing was only one issue. What got me most in those videos was that every tile had Romulans on it to kill (they were "wandering monsters in MK, I believe). Unless the Federation started some large scale war with the Romulans, why would I be going around killing every Romulan I see? Also, why are Romulans blockading all the outposts and planets? Ok, you can say they are Borg assimilated Romulans, but still, it seems thematically off.
Yeah, I understand your misgivings, but for me, the theme does manage to hold up within the game. It helps that as the game begins, you're entering a wormhole into a completely uncharted realm of the galaxy that is confused, chaotic, and suffering an invasion by the Borg. So, as strange as it may initially seem, it does begin to make sense that your ship can recruit Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, and all the rest. Because the idea is simple: the Borg incursion is such an overwhelmingly catastrophic threat that even former enemies are collaborating. Also, considering that some Romulan characters have sided with the Federation before, and the Romulan/Federation alliance in the Dominion war of DS9, it's easy enough to believe that the game simply represents a fracturing of the Romulan Empire in the face of the Borg onslaught. You have some wanting to maintain an alliance with the Federation (the crew cards) and others wanting to maintain the status quo of the Empire (the hostile encounters). But more importantly, the notion of chasing down Romulans and Borg beyond Federation space is just plain fun and exciting, which is all that really matters in the end.
baelthazar wrote:I was also not thrilled with the away mission mechanic. I like the fan-made sheet of away mission modifiers, which adds some story, but turning over a chit and seeing a ST:NG race then deciding if I want to use diplomacy or combat just seems to lack the nuance of the show. It would have made more sense to have some Eldritch Horror style card draw with a story than a flavorless token with numbers.
That was one of the weaker aspects of the game for me too, so I'm hoping an expansion may extend upon the notion of the Random Away Team Missions to add more narrative flavour to that particular aspect of the game. FWIW, another BGG user is also developing an expanded random away mission generator website, though it hasn't yet been made public.
baelthazar wrote:I may still get it, but those things were disappointing. I loved the card play "puzzle" that you had to do in order to overcome challenges. If anything, that would push me over the edge to get the game (and it made far more sense and connected with me more than MK and its different, mostly boring, spell cards).
Indeed, your description of the Mage Knight board game is almost exactly how I felt about it. And while Star Trek: Frontiers may have a few rough edges, I find it to be a much more intuitive and thematically enjoyable game than Mage Knight. IMO, it's not the perfect game, nor the perfect Star Trek game, but it's absolutely good enough, and a fun way to enjoy Vlaada Chvatil's ingenious underlying gameplay mechanics. But YMMV.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by hepcat » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:17 am

Isgrimnur wrote:All these posts, and no one has linked the song yet? I am disappoint.
:lol:

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by baelthazar » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:07 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:All these posts, and no one has linked the song yet? I am disappoint.
Given that I heard this on the radio, I had never seen the original video. How could that song get any more random and absurd... oh... that's how.

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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Isgrimnur » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:43 pm

:D
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by hepcat » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:45 pm

Finally finished my solo conquest game this afternoon.,.with a win. That's a first!
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by Isgrimnur » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:51 pm

If that video were any cheesier, they would be au gratin.
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Re: Star Trekkin'... across the universe...

Post by hentzau » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:33 pm

I'm currently working on setting up a copy of Star Trek: The Dice Game. I bought a set of dice from someone off of BGG, and am in the process of painting them in. Going to print up a set of cards and see if I like it enough to get some Artscow cards done. I'll report back...
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