OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

All discussions regarding Board, Card, and RPG Gaming, including industry discussion, that don't belong in one of the other gaming forums.

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YellowKing
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by YellowKing »

Got a chance to play Ms. Marvel and Captain American tonight in Marvel: Champions so quick thoughts:

MS. MARVEL - Never heard of this character (I'm more of a DC guy), so I went in completely cold on this one. Her starter deck uses Protection which I really don't like for solo play. As expected, I had a rough go of it, particularly when Rhino started pulling upgrade after upgrade. I just couldn't put out enough damage to really make a dent in him before he pounded me into the dirt. I was able to pull out a win the second game, however. as she does have a few gems in a mountain of garbage. She has a fantastic remove 3 threat thwart card, and a couple of nice upgrades that can add to Attack and Thwart events she plays. She also has a couple of good allies. The rest kind of felt like filler, but it would take a few more plays to make a full judgment. For now, I give her a "meh." Perhaps with something other than the Protection deck she'd be more appealing. Record: 1-1 with her.

CAPTAIN AMERICA - I expected this hero to be a powerhouse right out of the gate, and I was not disappointed. The Leadership deck is just stacked with fantastic allies, and along with all of his little "ready Avenger" tricks and high damage attacks I crushed Rhino in the first play. I don't think I ever even took any damage. If you play him right you can find yourself getting multiple attacks with either Cappy, his allies, or both on a single turn. Even after one play I can tell he's one of my top 3 heroes.

Rahdo from Rahdo Runs Through It gave this game a glowing review, and one of the things he loved that I totally agree with is the fact that they didn't try to make every hero the same for the sake of balance. Purely based on the characters, I felt like Ms. Marvel would be kind of wimpy and Captain America would be really strong, and my gameplay bore that out.

Green Goblin should be here Thursday, and at some point I want to try a 2-hero game to see how it scales up.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Fishbelly »

YellowKing wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:34 pm Green Goblin should be here Thursday, and at some point I want to try a 2-hero game to see how it scales up.
I originally played a lot of games solo vs Rhino with the various heroes to learn their abilities. Lately I've played multiple games with 2 heroes, and I think it scales wonderfully. You have time to discover synergies between the 2 heroes, and you can weather the occasional bad draw that drops a ton of damage or threat on you.

I'll still play with one character when I want a quicker game, but I'm leaning towards 2 heroes now as my preferred format.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Tao »

My last game of Marvel Champions, after my previous whining rant, I went back to Spider-man and Captain Marvel.

Round one of play, I had both heroes on "Hero" side so took the damage from Rhno, Spider-man took 4 points and Captain Marvel only took 2, the boost card was zero, figured this was a great start. End of Turn one Spider-mans encounter was Charge, Captain Marvel's encounter was Ivory Horn, so Rhino at the end of turn one is doing 6 base damage plus whatever the boost will be. Round two I play through the round and flip to Peter Parker, figuring no way Spider-man will survive with only 8 health and I don't want to defend and lose the opportunity to thwart next round. Captain Marvel I leave on hero side as she has 10 health and even with a plus 3 boost I can still narrowly survive. Rhino attacks and I defend for 1, Rhino draws a plus 2 boost so 8 damage minus 1 for total of 7 and Captain Marvel survives. I now figure I will just need to spend a round or two as Carol Danvers and recover. Rhino draws his encounter card and it's stampede, Rhino attacks for another 5 damage so total of 13 damage in a single round of play...while not technically game over, it's only the second round and one of my heroes is already out of the game so I packed it up.

I keep telling myself I am done with the game and then read more posts detailing other folks successful games and think one more game and it will start to click but so far not so much. :D Not sure how to address taking 13 damage or gaining 8 or more threat in a single turn.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Daveman »

I posted something similar on BGG, but I think it's a great sign that there's so much discussion and difference of opinion about what works in this game.

I've tried different Captain America decks and love Protection the best with him by far. I'm thinking of replacing Helicarrier and something else with Enhanced Reflexes and whatever the other Enhanced trait is called. I also recognize that the decks I'm agonizing over for solo play are not what I'd likely take with multiple heroes and that's a whole other facet of the game I haven't really touched yet.

Word came out yesterday that the Wrecking Crew expansion is out early February :)
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by YellowKing »

And....I just bought CTHULHU: DEATH MAY DIE because apparently buying one game in a week is not enough to feed my already time-crunched solo gaming addiction. Freaking $20 Amazon gift card I got unexpectedly didn't help either. :grund:
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Smoove_B »

It really is excellent...well, at least for the few partial games I tried playing. It was definitely much better than I was expecting, particularly after the delay. Very slick design and packaging. The minis are gorgeous.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Skinypupy »

YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:35 pm Freaking $20 Amazon gift card I got unexpectedly didn't help either. :grund:
I just used my $50 Amazon card I got as a Xmas present from work to pick up the Return to Hoth xpac for Imperial Assault today.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by $iljanus »

I may regret this but I'd be interested in impressions for Cthulhu: Wallet May Die.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by hepcat »

Skinypupy wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:09 am
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:35 pm Freaking $20 Amazon gift card I got unexpectedly didn't help either. :grund:
I just used my $50 Amazon card I got as a Xmas present from work to pick up the Return to Hoth xpac for Imperial Assault today.
The hobby store down the street from my office continuously has deep discount sales to unload the board games they stocked the last few years...which never sold. One of them is 40 percent off Imperial Assault. Would it be worth it for someone who loves Descent 2nd edition with the app?
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by wonderpug »

hepcat wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:56 am
Skinypupy wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:09 am
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:35 pm Freaking $20 Amazon gift card I got unexpectedly didn't help either. :grund:
I just used my $50 Amazon card I got as a Xmas present from work to pick up the Return to Hoth xpac for Imperial Assault today.
The hobby store down the street from my office continuously has deep discount sales to unload the board games they stocked the last few years...which never sold. One of them is 40 percent off Imperial Assault. Would it be worth it for someone who loves Descent 2nd edition with the app?
Yes.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Skinypupy »

hepcat wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:56 am
Skinypupy wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:09 am
YellowKing wrote: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:35 pm Freaking $20 Amazon gift card I got unexpectedly didn't help either. :grund:
I just used my $50 Amazon card I got as a Xmas present from work to pick up the Return to Hoth xpac for Imperial Assault today.
The hobby store down the street from my office continuously has deep discount sales to unload the board games they stocked the last few years...which never sold. One of them is 40 percent off Imperial Assault. Would it be worth it for someone who loves Descent 2nd edition with the app?
I haven't played Descent (it's on my "pick up eventually" list) so I can't compare, but Imperial Assault is an absolute blast. The app integration is stellar, and makes for a really fantastic solo experience.

I know my board gaming experience is very limited compared to others here, but I'd probably list Imperial Assault as my #1 favorite game at this point. It's definitely the one I keep going back to most often.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by hepcat »

Hmmm...methinks there's a trip to the hobby store in my immediate future. Hope they still have it.

...who am i kidding, it's been there for the last 6 months. Those poor folks really thought they were going to get in on the popularity of board games, but that area is just utterly devoid of anyone who plays them, it seems. I grabbed 5 pots of Citadel paints last week for about 10 bucks.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by $iljanus »

hepcat wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:07 pm Hmmm...methinks there's a trip to the hobby store in my immediate future. Hope they still have it.

...who am i kidding, it's been there for the last 6 months. Those poor folks really thought they were going to get in on the popularity of board games, but that area is just utterly devoid of anyone who plays them, it seems. I grabbed 5 pots of Citadel paints last week for about 10 bucks.
Run, don't walk and just buy it! It was a lot of fun with the app and who knows how long Imperial Assault will be around if FFG decides to redirect their focus to other SW games. And grab an expansion or two while you're at it (I have Return to Hoth and Jabba's Realm because of some completest gene in me)
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Skinypupy »

$iljanus wrote: Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:37 pm And grab an expansion or two while you're at it (I have Return to Hoth and Jabba's Realm because of some completest gene in me)
Just FYI, there's other expansions available, but Hoth and Jabba are the only two with their full campaigns playable through the app.

Seems like a missed opportunity for FFG to not develop additional downloadable campaigns. I'd gladly pay $10 for another downloadable campaign to play through, instead of just playing through ones I've already finished with different characters.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Skinypupy »

I have got to find a way to create a dedicated board gaming space in my house. Not having one is absolutely killing my desire to play.

I typically have about 2 hours at night between the time the kids go to bed and the time I hit the sack. There are very few games that can be played in that time, when they require 20 minutes to set up and another 20 to take down.

I had a good space for a while, but Mrs. Skinypupy took back her room when we shuffled things around. I've debated taking down my electric drum set to create room, but I just can't bring myself to do that yet. :(
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Smoove_B »

I was looking into getting a gate-leg table (IKEA). The included storage and ability to save space when not in use seemed great, but I wasn't sure if not being able to sit in the center was ultimately going to be a problem.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by AWS260 »

A friend of mine uses that for gaming in his apartment. I think it's a great solution for limited space: super-easy to fold up and move out of the way, storage for dice trays and other accessories, and relatively sturdy (a wee bit of wobble). Not being able to sit in the middle hasn't been a issue, but I've only played 2-3 player games with him on it.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Tao »

That table is pretty neat and I could definitely see using it as a side table but I would be worried it is a little too small for most games, particularly the dungeon crawls that require a tile layout. I was using a 3'x3' folding table for a while and it was challenging so I bought a second table and that worked pretty well. Think I paid about $50 for each table.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Blackhawk »

I use a 33x33 card table, and I often have to put some stuff on the bed to be able to manage. I wouldn't even try it for most dungeon crawls.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Smoove_B »

Size of the table was definitely a concern. I'm using a folding table now that's 6' long and about 30" wide. The gate-leg loses about a foot of length but gains about an inch of width. Those storage drawers are a huge sell (for me) and not having an entire wall of my office blocked with a 6' table all the time has value. Might not be great for a dungeon crawl but to be able to swing up half a table side and play a smaller footprint game? Everything is a trade off.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

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Skinypupy wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:53 am I've debated taking down my electric drum set to create room, but I just can't bring myself to do that yet. :(
How many hours did you spend drumming last year? How many nights do you want to game vs want to drum? What other benefits to the family would accrue if that were a usable space for everyone except just for Dad?
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Skinypupy »

Isgrimnur wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:01 pm
Skinypupy wrote: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:53 am I've debated taking down my electric drum set to create room, but I just can't bring myself to do that yet. :(
How many hours did you spend drumming last year? How many nights do you want to game vs want to drum? What other benefits to the family would accrue if that were a usable space for everyone except just for Dad?
One of my goals this year is to drum more regularly. I haven’t done it yet, mind you, but leaving the kit up keeps that thin thread of hope alive. And it’s set up in my office, so there’s no affect on anyone but me.

The bigger issue is that I’m afraid I’d never be able to actually get the kit back together if I disassemble it. :oops:
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Isgrimnur »

Photo or videos when you disassemble it.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by YellowKing »

I got a quick game in of CTHULHU: DEATH MAY DIE tonight, and you wanted impressions so here are impressions:

On paper, this game sounds pretty run of the mill. It's the old familiar trope - you play one of a number of investigators who are trying to stop a ritual to summon one of the two included Elder Gods. If you can stop this ritual, the Elder God will be forced onto this plane of existence in a weakened state where you just may have the power to kill it and save humanity.

To accomplish this goal you will move around a modular map fighting monsters and fulfilling other requirements of the scenario. 7 scenarios are included in the game, but you can play each with either Elder God (which do impact the game in very different ways), so it's more like 14. You get three actions a turn, and combat/tests are resolved through dice rolling.

Honestly if that's all I read about it, this would be a hard pass. I already own Mansions of Madness, thanks.

However, there's a BIG gameplay twist in this game, and it turns what could have been a really mediocre dice chucker into a ton of fun. Like in most Cthulhu games, losing all of your insanity means you lose the game. However, in this game, the more sanity you lose, the more powerful you become. Suddenly, very interesting decisions start opening up. Do you open yourself up to more sanity loss in order to improve your skills, or do you play it safe but remain a weakling?

The simplistic combat (roll dice - count successes) also hides some interesting strategy. By spending Stress, you can re-roll dice. However, your Stress pool is limited. So when is the best time to mitigate that bad roll? Suddenly you realize that the game isn't about how best to defeat monsters, it's about how best to manage the psychological well-being of your investigator - at least until his lunacy helps you defeat an Elder God.

Another interesting twist is that whenever you end your turn in a space free of monsters, you get to "investigate" and draw a Discovery card. These are typically good things like items, companions, skills, etc. But they often come at a cost, and they often require a decision. For instance, you may meet a janitor that will join and aid you, but it will cost you some sanity. Or you can instead just take his bottle of bleach which provides a smaller reward but doesn't impact your character's mental state so harshly.

More interesting little surprises abound. At the start of the game you get a random insanity effect (such as an obsessive compulsive disorder that requires you to have an even amount of health, stress, and discovery cards), and that effect will trigger every time you "level up" by going insane. The skills for each character are all varied and interesting, and get insanely powerful (pun DEFINITELY intended) as the game goes on. You're also drawing Mythos cards every turn that do bad things and spawn monsters. But some also include a symbol and discarding three of these symbols calls the Elder God to stir and move along his track, causing even more bad stuff to happen.

Then we come to the components. While everything I've talked about so far could have resulted in a pretty good game, it's elevated by the high production value. This game just has a fantastic aesthetic. The character cards are bold and fun on nice glossy stock, and they give you some nifty little sculpted tentacle markers to track your stats and skills. Cards are oversized and easy to read. Flavor text abounds, but only enough to get you in the action and not bog you down.

And the minis - my God the minis. They are absolutely HUGE and incredibly well done. When you're on the board, you really feel like you're fighting some bad-ass monsters....to the point they're almost comical. You see, monsters will constantly be spawning in, and the modular maps are not too terribly big. It results in you feeling almost claustrophobically overwhelmed by these things, and it's great fun. I cannot WAIT to get these painted.

At its heart it is a fairly fast-paced, extremely easy to grasp dice game. Because it's dice roll after dice roll, luck is going to play a big factor so be forewarned if you're not a fan of that. However, your stress re-rolls along with becoming more powerful (which gives you more - and better - dice) do provide some mitigation options.

However, it really does add up to more than the sum of its parts. I can see why the solo folks are hyping it, because it does give the experience of a Cthulhu game without all the rules complexity or heavy setup of a lot of other Lovecraftian games. In that respect it's fantastic for solo play and I can definitely see myself hitting this one a lot in the coming days and weeks. While I've only played one scenario, I have read that there is a lot of variety in how you stop each ritual so I'm really looking forward to seeing what curveballs it throws.

I hesitate to fully recommend a game after only one play, but I think it's a lot of fun and refreshingly non-brain burning. Sometimes you just want to roll dice and kill stuff, and this game allows you to do that while offering enough little strategic decisions to keep it interesting. Add on the incredible minis and high production value, and I'm really happy with it.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by $iljanus »

Thanks YK! You've given me much to think about and I like the way insanity is used in the game. Of course my wallet may not thank you...
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

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The only caution I will provide is that for the $75-$80 asking price, there are many "deeper" games out there. You're definitely paying for the higher quality components and not the strategic complexity. But it does fill a niche that I currently don't have, which is a soloable, campaign-style dungeon run that is not bogged down with long setups and fiddly rules. I'd recommend hitting some of the playthrough vids to see if it grabs you.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Smoove_B »

I don't have much to add - your thoughts mirror mine with the limited time I spent with it. As a KS backer, I actually had serious regret after it was delayed and I really started to question my decision to support it. But as impressions started to filter out and people started reporting detailed play through, it sounded better and better. What's really strange is that I am not sure how well it scales. Unofficially, I've seen that the sweet spot is with two investigators, which means 1-2 people.

Anyway, I haven't seen official numbers but I think it's been a very successful KS for them, particularly the post KS retail element. It would not surprise me at all to learn there is another KS scheduled for this later in the year (reprint, more expansions, etc...). There's an insane (no pun intended) amount of stuff in the core box, but the stretch goal box more than doubles your options (I think). If they don't get that out into retail or offer it up again in another KS it would be a huge amount of content (more character options) that people are missing out on.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by $iljanus »

YellowKing wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:05 am The only caution I will provide is that for the $75-$80 asking price, there are many "deeper" games out there. You're definitely paying for the higher quality components and not the strategic complexity. But it does fill a niche that I currently don't have, which is a soloable, campaign-style dungeon run that is not bogged down with long setups and fiddly rules. I'd recommend hitting some of the playthrough vids to see if it grabs you.
I don't mind something easy to set up and it's refreshing to have a ruleset that doesn't take days to read and understand. It is a bit pricey but I can wait until our Amazon visa card accumulates enough points to make a substantial dent in the price if I decide to make the purchase. Availability doesn't seem to be an issue and it's more of a "sounds like a cool purchase" vs "I must have this cool purchase".
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by YellowKing »

Yeah I used a $20 Amazon card to bring it down to $60.

Also, I was mistaken earlier - it's 6 scenarios, not 7. However, there are two small expansions and a full expansion out so there's plenty of content out there.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by $iljanus »

YellowKing wrote:Yeah I used a $20 Amazon card to bring it down to $60.

Also, I was mistaken earlier - it's 6 scenarios, not 7. However, there are two small expansions and a full expansion out so there's plenty of content out there.
$41.00 worth of Amazon points, delivery for tomorrow and only 13 left? How can I not order it?

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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Smoove_B »

:D

I'd be amazed if you were disappointed. As much as I love Cthulhu-themed games, I did feel a bit burned out and that there was nothing new under the sun. While this won't win any thematic originality awards, I do think it has longevity potential.
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by $iljanus »

Other than an expansion for Hornet Leader involving the invasion of our world by Cthulhu and its minions I don't have a standalone Cthulhu based game so looking forward to it. I know from reading various reviews it's not as deep as some of the other offerings but sometimes you just want to get to the business of shooting shit up and stopping an otherworldly invasion while balancing on the knife edge of sanity without a complex ruleset or setup!
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Blackhawk »

Nope.

Nope nope.

Too many games. Not enough time, not enough space. Other projects that demand my budget.

Nope.

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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by $iljanus »

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:32 pm Nope.

Nope nope.

Too many games. Not enough time, not enough space. Other projects that demand my budget.

Nope.

:hawk:
Nah you don't want this game. I mean how seriously can you take a game with a nun wielding a gun and a knife? In my Catholic High School it was one or the other but wielding both is just ridiculous...

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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Smoove_B »

Hey, hey - no picking on Blackhawk. I swear, don't make me stop this thread or I'm come here and temp everyone Deep Madness!
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by tylertoo »

YellowKing wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:05 am a soloable, campaign-style dungeon run that is not bogged down with long setups and fiddly rules.
Me want. But I'm still trying to get through Gloomhaven, speaking of campaign-style dungeon runs bogged down with long setups and fiddly rules :
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hepcat
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by hepcat »

Fired up some Street Masters this afternoon. I still love this game. :wub:
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Blackhawk
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Blackhawk »

I know it isn't this weeks cool new title, but I've been working my way through the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game over the last month or so. With running on tabletop RPG while learning and prepping a second, I rarely have time to play. Hopefully that will let up soon - I've had the thing set up for a month in the bedroom, and have only been able to run four missions. I did manage to win all four, though. One handily, one by a single card. I'm running Ezren for oomph, Int, and Wis, Harsk for barriers and ranged combat support, then Valeros and Lem as a team (as each has an ability that boosts others in their location.)

I was given the complete set (base game, plus character pack, plus all story expansions) for all four versions of the game (not counting the recent reboot) last Christmas, and am looking forward to spending more time with it.
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Anonymous Bosch
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

For anyone that enjoys a cleverly crafted CYOA-style RPG that plays well solo, Legacy of Dragonholt is currently on sale for only $20 from Miniature Market as their Daily Deal:

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It typically sells for the better part of $50 (e.g. it's $46.56 from Amazon), but bear in mind the deal's only good for another four hours or so.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." — P. J. O'Rourke
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YellowKing
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Re: OO Solo Board Gamers Guild

Post by YellowKing »

Got my first true run through of CTHULHU: DEATH MAY DIE in tonight. I had put it on hold while I got most of the miniatures painted.

I went with two random investigators. Ian, good brawler, and Ahmed, fantastic support role who can sneak and heal. This combo worked out REALLY well early on and we made fantastic progress. Due to our ability to either sneak past enemies or clear rooms in a fight we managed to rack up discovery cards and get fairly powerful very early on.

As the game progressed, we were in great shape. We had all four labs destroyed before Cthulhu had advanced twice, bringing him on to the board very early.

However, as with any Lovecraft game, investigators will never have the upper hand for long! The board quickly started to fill up and I found myself in a frantic battle with the big man himself while my insanity steadily creeped upward.

In the end, Ahmed had a psychotic break and in a frenzy, attacked not only the enemies around him but Ian himself! This unfortunately proved to be a fatal blow and Ian perished. Ahmed, now driven almost fully insane by what he had done, attacked Cthulhu with a vengeance! Alas, it was too little too late. Ahmed's mind cracked, and he turned into a gibbering psychotic madman as the heavily wounded Cthulhu limped out the door to destroy humanity. (Yes, this game literally came down to one roll!)

Greatly enjoyed the session tonight, and really love how the simplicity of the rules doesn't prevent you from having to make meaningful decisions each turn. For example, at one point tonight I was one sanity away from hitting an insanity threshold that would trigger my psychotic break which would do 2 damage to every figure in my space. So I ran into a room of cultists that I normally would have snuck past and attacked - knowing there would be a high probability I'd roll a sanity and trigger that psychotic break. That is indeed what happened, and the psychotic break wound up killing all the cultists in the room. The game is filled with little moments like that in which you can turn your insanity weaknesses into an advantage, or force you to make decisions that aren't immediately obvious in order to mitigate a cascading chain of bad events should the dice not roll your way.

Simply put - there's a lot going on in this game under an extremely simple-looking veneer. I do understand why the limited *types* of actions you can do could turn some people off - essentially move, attack, or rest (there's actually more to it than that due to added scenario actions, but that's the core). However, those simple puzzle pieces can be combined in lots of neat ways when you start layering your skills on top of them. Great fun and I look forward to giving this scenario another go this weekend.
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