[WW] Fright Night! (The village wins!)

J.D. · Post by **J.D.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:10 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:Here's a test of your sincerity, J.D.: Suppose for the sake of argument that we gave you reason to think Chaosraven was a Vampire. Would you then join us in voting against him?

Since I have not heard any solid evidence of Chaosraven being a seer, mason, or the FVH, then if you had evidence to show that he may be a vampire, I would certainly vote for him.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:06 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Sure. Pretend for a moment I am a Mason.

OK.

My partner, LordMortis PMs me and says WTF? Do we out this guy? To which I reply, no way... you and I know he's full of it. We wait for a seer to find one of us so we can spread the truth.

But when the Seer you're waiting for "sees" you, all the Seer will "see" is that you're "more than meets the eye". Why would a Seer who doesn't know whether you're a Mason or a Vampire trust you and contact you?

But you know this. For Right over here, you wrote:

Because they identified "not a normal human" with their visions and can't trust whether that means good guy or bad guy... I know if I was a seer I wouldn't contact that person, and I *certainly* wouldn't open my throat to a vampire by stating that I am the seer.

I hope it's not impolite of me to point that out.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:09 pm

J.D. wrote:Since I have not heard any solid evidence of Chaosraven being a seer, mason, or the FVH, then if you had evidence to show that he may be a vampire, I would certainly vote for him.

Excellent! So then, what do you make of the contradiction I just pointed out (in the message right above this one) in his explanation of why Masons might not step forward? (It's based on the error noxiousdog pointed out here.)

Why would someone uninfected by vampirism resist, and argue against, the obvious trustworthiness of the known Mason at this juncture?

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:28 pm

Chaosraven wrote:And if they speak up in public, who's telling the truth? There's no verification process for anything other than an innocent.

False. Suppose it's Round 1. Suppose Annabel is a Fake Mason and claims in public to be a Mason. The real Masons, Benedict and Carlita, must now decide what to do.

Benedict steps up and says, "No! I'm a real Mason, and Annabel is a Fake Mason!"

You claim that this is an impasse, Chaosraven, but it's clearly not an impasse. Suppose Carlita now steps forward and say "I'm the other real Mason, and I'm a-tellin' ya, Annabel is a fraud!"

At that juncture, what's Annabel's play? Annabel is the Alpha, because nobody else would fake being a Mason. Annabel has nobody to testify in her behalf, because her minions don't yet know she has infected them.

Sure, either Benedict or Carlita will die, but that hardly matters. Everyone else will know that the one who survives is 100% reliable and will use that living Mason as a clearing house for the rest of Round 1 and Round 2. Meanwhile, the crowd will stake Annabel the Emulatrix, and the minions will by at a huge disadvantage.

So you see, there certainly is a way for the real Masons to prove, under the present rules, that a fake Mason is a liar.

And if they speak up in public, who's telling the truth?

The one who has backup from another Mason. After all, one Mason will back another, but who's going to step up and back an Alpha posing as a Mason in Round 1?

So the Masons (out in public or behind closed ocnference doors) have to put faith into someone who claims to be the seer.

It is possible for the Alpha to pretend to be a Seer and to deceive the Masons. However, it's only possible if one of the real Seers is deeply confused about the duties of a Seer. The Alpha can't count on that, so posing as a Seer is too risky.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:54 pm

Mr Bubbles wrote:msteelers has been viritually non existent and no one talks about him...

You're right. However, he is being watched and evaluated.

msteelers always avoids taking initiative, and msteelers likes to jump on bandwagons led by others.

During Round 1, msteelers was second to accuse Leigh, fourth to accuse Mark (the first time around), second to accuse me.
L is the twelfth letter of the alphabet, M the thirteenth, and G the seventh.
Twice L is 24, four times M is 52, and twice G is 14.
-24+52=+28
+28-14=+14
The fourteenth letter of the alphabet is... n!

Need I say more?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:04 pm

FWIW, one person claiming to be a seer has contacted me.

J.D. · Post by **J.D.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:06 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
J.D. wrote:Since I have not heard any solid evidence of Chaosraven being a seer, mason, or the FVH, then if you had evidence to show that he may be a vampire, I would certainly vote for him.
Excellent! So then, what do you make of the contradiction I just pointed out (in the message right above this one) in his explanation of why Masons might not step forward? (It's based on the error noxiousdog pointed out here.)

Why would someone uninfected by vampirism resist, and argue against, the obvious trustworthiness of the known Mason at this juncture?

Ah, I see what you're getting at! I actually never thought it through that carefully. I should probably go over this thread again more thoroughly, since who knows how many more times I may walk unknowingly into a trap just out of sheer ignorance.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:12 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
I hope it's not impolite of me to point that out.

Not at all... by arguing for both sides about any possibility I am going to contradict myself numerous times.

I believe I even stated that somewhere back there.

Now this I find interesting... you will accuse JD, then offer me up if he votes your way? I shall assume the offer was not hypothetical as you have furnished "evidence" of my vampiric behavior... rather than just me being an idiot.

Be careful that you don't scare off others who may wish to join your crusade.

J.D. · Post by **J.D.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:15 pm

Chaosraven wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:
I hope it's not impolite of me to point that out.
Not at all... by arguing for both sides about any possibility I am going to contradict myself numerous times.

I believe I even stated that somewhere back there.

Now this I find interesting... you will accuse JD, then offer me up if he votes your way? I shall assume the offer was not hypothetical as you have furnished "evidence" of my vampiric behavior... rather than just me being an idiot.

Be careful that you don't scare off others who may wish to join your crusade.

I think Grund's intention was to show me how silly it is to question nox's authenticity as a mason. I didn't think it to be a direct attack at you, but it does plant some doubt. I never took it as a formal invitation to vote for you which is why I have not. You are guilty of the same thing I am (questioning the validity of the mason), and I am innocent of being a vampire, so I know that this information does not automatically condemn you either.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:27 pm

J.D. wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:Excellent! So then, what do you make of the contradiction I just pointed out (in the message right above this one) in his explanation of why Masons might not step forward? (It's based on the error noxiousdog pointed out here.)

Why would someone uninfected by vampirism resist, and argue against, the obvious trustworthiness of the known Mason at this juncture?
Ah, I see what you're getting at! I actually never thought it through that carefully. I should probably go over this thread again more thoroughly, since who knows how many more times I may walk unknowingly into a trap just out of sheer ignorance.

There may be traps afoot, but this isn't one. I'm merely asking for your opinion of Chaosraven's play. Given how busy you have been in RL, I understand if you need a bit of time to reread the thread and clarify your position.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:29 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Not at all... by arguing for both sides about any possibility I am going to contradict myself numerous times.

Mind if we rename you ChaosWhitman?

Be careful that you don't scare off others who may wish to join your crusade.

I'm not careless; I'm cold and calculating, just like the people I hang with.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:31 pm

Chaosraven wrote:I have no problem giving my life based on general consensus.

I hope that the voting for my release will expose the monsters in some way fathomable to my fellow villagers.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:06 pm

Ok, I have a few requests:

Can those who have been contacted by anyone claiming to be the FVH send me a PM to that effect? Not asking who did it or when, just looking for a count.

Can anyone who has PM'd the following individuals send me a PM stating that they have contacted that individual:

Crux, JD, Kelric, Mark, pr0ner

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:35 pm

Chaosraven wrote:Can those who have been contacted by anyone claiming to be the FVH send me a PM to that effect? Not asking who did it or when, just looking for a count.

I think it's safe to assume that nearly everybody has been contacted by at least one "FVH". The really interesting question is, How many have been contacted by more than one "FVH"?

J.D. · Post by **J.D.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:37 pm

The person who contacted me as the "FVH" is still alive so either the vampires don't believe him or they haven't been told yet.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:43 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:Can those who have been contacted by anyone claiming to be the FVH send me a PM to that effect? Not asking who did it or when, just looking for a count.
I think it's safe to assume that nearly everybody has been contacted by at least one "FVH". The really interesting question is, How many have been contacted by more than one "FVH"?

The funny part for me is that I have been told by various sources that they have been contacted thus.

I have been in contact with almost every player in the game, yet not a single one has claimed to be the FVH to me.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:53 pm

Chaosraven wrote:I have been in contact with almost every player in the game, yet not a single one has claimed to be the FVH to me.

Are you saying you're the FVH?!

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:56 pm

And I thought Grenard was Goofy...

No... as I have stated time and again, I am 100% innocent nonpowered villager.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:42 pm

As I trust noxiousdog in this game...

J.D., it's time to get staked.

J.D. · Post by **J.D.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:57 pm

pr0ner wrote:As I trust noxiousdog in this game...

J.D., it's time to get staked.

Keep in mind that nox voted for me based on the analysis of Grund, not nox's own conclusions. Quote from nox below:

My brain hurts.

I trust Grund.

JD is a vamp.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:58 pm

J.D. wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:Here's a test of your sincerity, J.D.: Suppose for the sake of argument that we gave you reason to think Chaosraven was a Vampire. Would you then join us in voting against him?
Since I have not heard any solid evidence of Chaosraven being a seer, mason, or the FVH, then if you had evidence to show that he may be a vampire, I would certainly vote for him.

There will be no evidence that I am a seer mason or FVH. I am without abilities.

Evidence of vampirehood is therefore easy to obtain for a seer. If I scan as not-normal, I suck blood. All other evidence will be speculation.

J.D. · Post by **J.D.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:02 pm

Chaosraven wrote:
J.D. wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:Here's a test of your sincerity, J.D.: Suppose for the sake of argument that we gave you reason to think Chaosraven was a Vampire. Would you then join us in voting against him?
Since I have not heard any solid evidence of Chaosraven being a seer, mason, or the FVH, then if you had evidence to show that he may be a vampire, I would certainly vote for him.
There will be no evidence that I am a seer mason or FVH. I am without abilities.

Evidence of vampirehood is therefore easy to obtain for a seer. If I scan as not-normal, I suck blood. All other evidence will be speculation.

You should save some of that defense for the future rounds because it looks like I'm cooked this time around. Since I don't have contact/PM's with anyone with special abilities (i'm excluding the questionable FVH PMs that everyone receieved), I have no way of proving my innocence beyond "he said, (s)he said", and I doubt my word will be taken over the nox/Grund combo. You may be next in their sights, so save the defensive strategy until you actually need it.

FWIW, I currently haven't reached a conclusion about your level of guilty-ness.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:13 pm

J.D. wrote:
pr0ner wrote:As I trust noxiousdog in this game...

J.D., it's time to get staked.
Keep in mind that nox voted for me based on the analysis of Grund, not nox's own conclusions. Quote from nox below:

My brain hurts.

I trust Grund.

JD is a vamp.

Correct. I did my thinking first round. Grund never gets tired of thinking. I'll be back for round 3.

J.D. · Post by **J.D.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:17 pm

I'm going to have to make a move this round. It looks like my time is coming to an end, but I shouldn't go silently.

I vote proner because he blindly voted for me and admitted to siding with nox even though voting for me wasn't nox's idea. I think Chaos will by lynched eventually anyways as the mob seems to be lining him up next. The other players have been too silent for me to make anything but a guess.

I won't strike back at Grund, he found a legitimate excuse to hang me, even if it's incorrect. I have to respect that man's analyzing ability. I believe nox to be a mason, so I don't want to lynch someone helpful to the cause. But I need to pick someone.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:22 pm

My heart has already been within the sights of the pointy end at least once this game.

I think if you are not the one to be staked, you will need to furnish them with someone else they can get. Perhaps me, as it looks like the offer was on the table...

I think Varity has some serious suspicious potential.

I will cast my VOTE to stake VARITY.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:33 pm

I'm not going to cast a vote for J.D based solely on the Noxiousdog / Mentat alliance. I've worked through his analysis, and while it makes a certain amount of sense, I don't think it's conclusive. Mind you, I would have thought that an innocent villager would work a little harder to stay alive (we're not even at a plurality of votes yet). Still, I'm holding off because I think the assessment of J.D is overly mechanical.

Personally, I'm still trying to work out whether Grund is a Thufir Hawat or a Pitor de Vries.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:43 pm

Or Grima Wormtongue...

J.D. · Post by **J.D.** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:43 pm

Mark wrote:I'm not going to cast a vote for J.D based solely on the Noxiousdog / Mentat alliance. I've worked through his analysis, and while it makes a certain amount of sense, I don't think it's conclusive. Mind you, I would have thought that an innocent villager would work a little harder to stay alive (we're not even at a plurality of votes yet). Still, I'm holding off because I think the assessment of J.D is overly mechanical.

Personally, I'm still trying to work out whether Grund is a Thufir Hawat or a Pitor de Vries.

I'm trying to avoid the "you doth protest too much" backlash.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:49 pm

You know what I find humorous?

That the bad guys keep killing quiet people in the hopes of killing the seer.

And then as a village we kill by vote the quiet ones in hope of killing a bad guy.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:54 pm

Actually I did have a discussion regarding that "lynch the quiet ones" aspect and it's more along the lines of (if they don't contribute they don't help our cause)...

...but then again, maybe it's not roleplaying... maybe it's the way they are...

I'm pretty sure no matter what role in whatever game I end up with I'll still chatter like a box of freakin' tickle me elmos about whatever pops into my head.

Like right now.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:58 pm

J.D. wrote:
Mark wrote:I'm not going to cast a vote for J.D based solely on the Noxiousdog / Mentat alliance. I've worked through his analysis, and while it makes a certain amount of sense, I don't think it's conclusive. Mind you, I would have thought that an innocent villager would work a little harder to stay alive (we're not even at a plurality of votes yet). Still, I'm holding off because I think the assessment of J.D is overly mechanical.

Personally, I'm still trying to work out whether Grund is a Thufir Hawat or a Pitor de Vries.
I'm trying to avoid the "you doth protest too much" backlash.

We're all going to look pretty stupid if the vamps turn out to be Leigh, or Chris G, or msteelers, or all of the others that have made about three posts each so far. I say we stake all the quiet ones right now.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:04 pm

Mark wrote:
J.D. wrote:
Mark wrote:I'm not going to cast a vote for J.D based solely on the Noxiousdog / Mentat alliance. I've worked through his analysis, and while it makes a certain amount of sense, I don't think it's conclusive. Mind you, I would have thought that an innocent villager would work a little harder to stay alive (we're not even at a plurality of votes yet). Still, I'm holding off because I think the assessment of J.D is overly mechanical.

Personally, I'm still trying to work out whether Grund is a Thufir Hawat or a Pitor de Vries.
I'm trying to avoid the "you doth protest too much" backlash.
We're all going to look pretty stupid if the vamps turn out to be Leigh, or Chris G, or msteelers, or all of the others that have made about three posts each so far. I say we stake all the quiet ones right now.

Ummm, we lynched ChrisGrenard yesterday...

That didn't turn out so well.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:07 pm

Chaosraven wrote:You know what I find humorous?

That the bad guys keep killing quiet people in the hopes of killing the seer.

And then as a village we kill by vote the quiet ones in hope of killing a bad guy.

That is pretty funny.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:26 pm

Vote count comin' up, but just wanted to inform everyone that by popular vote, the rule remains as intended, the FVH may only protect each villager one night during the course of the game. Once protected, a villager thereafter is fair game for the Vampires.

Oh, and also--one change I might throw in for a future game at some point: The Alpha vamp chooses only one victim on night one, and a red shirt dies. On night 3--the second night the two (barring a fortunate lynching) decide a victim, they then have the potential to add a third vampire to the brood, with the following conditions:

1. If the vamps choose a teammate from a villager playing a role, the villager instead dies outright. Too much magic in the blood!

2. If the FVH is protecting the person the Vamps want to make into a teammate, the Vamps are SOL--they get no additional teammate, and the FVH has caused some major havoc in the game. Thoughts?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:32 pm

triggercut wrote:
Oh, and also--one change I might throw in for a future game at some point: The Alpha vamp chooses only one victim on night one, and a red shirt dies. On night 3--the second night the two (barring a fortunate lynching) decide a victim, they then have the potential to add a third vampire to the brood, with the following conditions:

1. If the vamps choose a teammate from a villager playing a role, the villager instead dies outright. Too much magic in the blood!

2. If the FVH is protecting the person the Vamps want to make into a teammate, the Vamps are SOL--they get no additional teammate, and the FVH has caused some major havoc in the game. Thoughts?

Hmmm, it would throw a serious wrench into the works for the first couple days as the vampires assemble.

regarding the Magical Death: this is to alleviate a double agent? I think the betrayal aspect of someone who managed to become trusted quickly would be worth great entertainment value. But also realize it would let the villagers KNOW that there would only be 2 vamps.

regarding the protection: this is very intriguing...

as far as all of the above:
Is the intent to increase the villagers chance of winning?

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:32 pm

Updated vote count:

Grundbegriff: Lynch JD
noxiousdog: Lynch JD
Varity: Lynch JD
Kelric: Lynch JD
Mr. Bubbles: No vote
setaside: No vote
Mark: No vote
pr0ner: Lynch JD
msteelers: No vote
Chaosraven: Lynch Varity
Leigh: No vote
Orinoco: No vote
J. D.: Lynch pr0ner

JD: 5 votes
pr0ner: 1 vote
Varity: 1 vote.

7 vote majority to lynch, we are in the window where a plurality of votes will also cause a lynching provided every player has voted.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:35 pm

Interesting... looking at the votes (one large bandwagon and two indie) I wonder what will be made of my vote...

Do I point out that I *had* originally voted for JD?

Nah... let 'em keep guessing.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:39 pm

Chaosraven wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
So would you vote for him?
Why not?

JD certainly fits my parameters for suspicion

(yes, that's a vote)

I will withdraw my varity vote

I wish to reinstate my VOTE for JD

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:39 pm

Chaosraven wrote:
triggercut wrote:
Oh, and also--one change I might throw in for a future game at some point: The Alpha vamp chooses only one victim on night one, and a red shirt dies. On night 3--the second night the two (barring a fortunate lynching) decide a victim, they then have the potential to add a third vampire to the brood, with the following conditions:

1. If the vamps choose a teammate from a villager playing a role, the villager instead dies outright. Too much magic in the blood!

2. If the FVH is protecting the person the Vamps want to make into a teammate, the Vamps are SOL--they get no additional teammate, and the FVH has caused some major havoc in the game. Thoughts?
Hmmm, it would throw a serious wrench into the works for the first couple days as the vampires assemble.

regarding the Magical Death: this is to alleviate a double agent? I think the betrayal aspect of someone who managed to become trusted quickly would be worth great entertainment value. But also realize it would let the villagers KNOW that there would only be 2 vamps.

regarding the protection: this is very intriguing...

as far as all of the above:
Is the intent to increase the villagers chance of winning?

Nope, it *should* help the Vampires out a bit.

The role of the sorceror in the other game intrigues me, but I think it just falls short of creating any real advantage for the ww/vampire team. Unless the sorc gets very, very lucky early on, by the time he sniffs out a seer *and* finds some vampires to give the info to, I think the balance of the game is already decided in favor of the villagers.

The biggest thing the villagers have working for them right now is the Masons. They're the most deceptively powerful force in the game, if played right. There are ways to counteract them, but unless the Vampires get very luck very early, the vamps are in a tough spot, because the masons can start putting together a "trust bloc" fairly early. The biggest weapon the Vamps have--besides eliminating players--is to be able to sow confusion and mistrust among the villagers. This allows that to happen a little bit more.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:41 pm

I just mean that it seems to offer extra opportunity for the Vamps to lose an extra player.

Kind of like the Hunter taking one of the bad guys down with him.

Octopus Overlords

[WW] Fright Night! (The village wins!)

Bandwagon Bitch...