[New Game Idea] The Dark Knight

[stessier]

I recently finished watching The Dark Knight for the first time (thank you DirecTV free movie weekend!) and was inspired. This is still in the very early planning stages and I'd like any feedback you might like to provide.

I think this game would be for 14-17 people (with the roles of Lucius and Alfred being combined at the low end).

I've included some changes that have been discussed.

Good Guys

1. Batman
   • Scans for Joker each night
   • Immune to sniping while Lucius lives
   • Can PM with Rachel
2. Rachel
   • Can PM with Batman and Harvey Dent
3. Alfred
   • Learns role of dead
4. Commissioner Gordon
   • Protects one person each night, not same person on consecutive nights
   • Will be told if protection was successful
   • Will automatically protect Harvey Dent one time from sniper and be reborn next day (can't be killed the night of death and doesn't get a vote during the day he's dead)
   • If he is protecting the target of Two Face, and the coin flip says the target dies, then Gordon dies in the target's place.
   • If the coin flip says the target lives, both target and Gordon live.
5. Lucius Fox
   • Scans for Sniper each night
6. Harvey Dent
   • Scans for Ramirez each night
   • Can PM with Rachel
   • Becomes Two Face if Rachel is Killed

Out for Revenge

Two Face

• If Rachel killed by lynch, Two Face hunts for Batman & Gordon
• If Rachel killed at Night, Two Face hunts for Joker, Batman, & Gordon
• Hunt by scanning player each night.
  • If powered player found - learns role
  • Hunt Targets are immediately killed
  • All other Powered Good and Bad players have a 50/50 chance of death (determined by random.org)
  • Civilians are never harmed
• Doesn't count for Good or Bad
• Will win game when Targets are dead

Bad Guys

1. Joker
   • Scans for Batman and Harvey Dent
   • Can PM with other Bad Guys
2. Sniper
   • Scan for Commissioner Gordon
   • Can snipe once in the game during the Day - role will not be revealed
   • Can PM with other Bad Guys
3. Ramirez
   • Scan for Rachel
   • Learns role of Dead
   • Can PM with other Bad Guys

Victory Conditions

• Two Face wins when his targets (Batman/Gordon) or (Batman/Gordon/Joker) are dead. This supersedes all other victories.
• Good wins once all Bad Guys are dead
• Bad Guys win once their number equals or exceeds the number of Good Guys

After each lynch, it will be announced if the player was

• A Citizen
• A Criminal

Two Face will show as a Criminal.
Harvey Dent will show as a Citizen.


2010 Gotham Census

1. tru1cy
2. Mr Bubbles
3. Scoop20906
4. Chaosraven
5. Newcastle
6. Lagom Lite
7. Lassr
8. Remus West
9. Grundbegriff
10. theohall
11. Unagi
12. Semaj
13. Isgrimnur
14. Brendan

[Unagi]

Sounds interesting.

I think the sniper should be in the day (clearly, not revealing the shooter)

It would be fun to have an Evil shooter.

[Unagi]

The Rachel mechanic on Two Face is very fun.

[Unagi]

If Two Face is hunting for Batman, and he 'checks Joker', does Joker die... or is that where the 50/50 comes in.


Also, the way it reads is basically that Two Face, if alive at the end game - he Trumps any other victory, correct ?

[theohall]

Seems pretty balanced and the concept that Two-Face can win as a "neutral" party adds considerable flavor.

[theohall]

If Two Face is hunting for Batman, and he 'checks Joker', does Joker die... or is that where the 50/50 comes in.


Also, the way it reads is basically that Two Face, if alive at the end game - he Trumps any other victory, correct ?

The way I read it, Two-Face wins if his targets are dead - ie Batman and Gordon are both dead if Rachel was lynched; Joker, Batman and Gordon if Rachel was killed.

Ramirez and the Sniper could still be alive or all the good guys except Batman and Gordon (and Rachel, of course) could still be alive for Two-Face to win.

[Unagi]

If Two Face is hunting for Batman, and he 'checks Joker', does Joker die... or is that where the 50/50 comes in.


Also, the way it reads is basically that Two Face, if alive at the end game - he Trumps any other victory, correct ?

The way I read it, Two-Face wins if his targets are dead - ie Batman and Gordon are both dead if Rachel was lynched; Joker, Batman and Gordon if Rachel was killed.

Ramirez and the Sniper could still be alive or all the good guys except Batman and Gordon (and Rachel, of course) could still be alive for Two-Face to win.

You are right, I over simplified that.

[theohall]

Now I'm screwed. I already understand these rules if this game does get going.

[stessier]

Sounds interesting.

I think the sniper should be in the day (clearly, not revealing the shooter)

It would be fun to have an Evil shooter.

I was wondering about that. I think I like it. And if Gordon takes the bullet for Harvey, then he comes back the next day and only has to sit out the current day and night. I like that better.

The way I read it, Two-Face wins if his targets are dead - ie Batman and Gordon are both dead if Rachel was lynched; Joker, Batman and Gordon if Rachel was killed.

Ramirez and the Sniper could still be alive or all the good guys except Batman and Gordon (and Rachel, of course) could still be alive for Two-Face to win.

This is exactly my intention. Whether or not the rules say that is what I need help with.

[Remus West]

How am I supposed to make my posts sound all gravelly if I get the Batman role?

[Mr Bubbles]

How am I supposed to make my posts sound all gravelly if I get the Batman role?

Just use this icon before and after every sentence.

[pr0ner]

When the Joker scans, is he asking "is X Batman OR Harvey" (ie, is he scanning one player for both roles at the same time)? Is he allowed two scans (one for Batman, one for Harvey)? Or is he limited to asking "is X Batman" or "is X Harvey"?

[tru1cy]

What's to stop Rachel from giving up Batman to Dent or vice versa?

[theohall]

What's to stop Rachel from giving up Batman to Dent or vice versa?

They are all on the same team prior to Rachel being lynched. If she sees herself dying, she could give them up to each other, or give one up to the other, but then either would still have to convince everyone else of the supposed reveal.

This could be spoofed by anyone after Rachel dies. She tells Dent who Batman is just before dying. Dent (not Two-Face) has to convince everyone to kill Batman. He can't do it by himself. Same thing if she gives up Dent (now Two-Face) to Batman. Batman still has to convince everyone to kill Two-Face.

Two-Face doesn't get any help other than the possible Gordon protection, so this doesn't seem like that big of a hole to me. Knowing a role and being able to do something about it are quite different. And Dent/Two-Face doesn't want to "reveal" because he's a) trying to win as a good guy as Dent or b) trying to win for himself as Two-Face.

Besides, once Rachel is dead, neither Batman nor Two-Face/Dent can PM with anyone.

[theohall]

When the Joker scans, is he asking "is X Batman OR Harvey" (ie, is he scanning one player for both roles at the same time)? Is he allowed two scans (one for Batman, one for Harvey)? Or is he limited to asking "is X Batman" or "is X Harvey"?

Why make it complicated? Joker scans player X without having to specify a role and is told if player X is Batman or Harvey.

Questions for stessier:

1) If Harvey becomes Two-Face, will the Joker still learn his role, since he's scanning for Batman/Dent. IMO, the Joker shouldn't learn the role in this case, because the bad guys, who can all PM each other, could easily railroad the one whose become a "lone gunman" at that point, or snipe him if it hasn't been used.

2) Are all lynches/kills blind other than finding out via scans from the "learn role of dead" specialists? In other words, is good guy/bad guy, but not their role, going to be known when someone dies? And what would Two Face show - good guy or bad guy?

3) If Rachel is dead, does Two Face still get the one-time Sniper protection from Gordon if it wasn't used to save Dent? I would say no, since Gordon wants Two Face dead at this point.

[Lassr]

[*]All other Powered Good and Bad players have a 50/50 chance of death (determined by random.org)

Austin in 3, 2, 1...
<he hates chance plays in these games>

[tru1cy]

What's to stop Rachel from giving up Batman to Dent or vice versa?

They are all on the same team prior to Rachel being lynched. If she sees herself dying, she could give them up to each other, or give one up to the other, but then either would still have to convince everyone else of the supposed reveal.

This could be spoofed by anyone after Rachel dies. She tells Dent who Batman is just before dying. Dent (not Two-Face) has to convince everyone to kill Batman. He can't do it by himself. Same thing if she gives up Dent (now Two-Face) to Batman. Batman still has to convince everyone to kill Two-Face.

Two-Face doesn't get any help other than the possible Gordon protection, so this doesn't seem like that big of a hole to me. Knowing a role and being able to do something about it are quite different. And Dent/Two-Face doesn't want to "reveal" because he's a) trying to win as a good guy as Dent or b) trying to win for himself as Two-Face.

Besides, once Rachel is dead, neither Batman nor Two-Face/Dent can PM with anyone.

So Rachel dies, but she PMs Batman identity to Dent prior to being killed. According to the rules Two Face is now hunting for Batman. So Two Face scans Batman. According to the rules hunted targets are killed immediatley. Just a bad idea to cripple the good guys like this.

Easiest thing to do is none of the good guys can PM, but Rachel knows the identity of Batman and Dent. Batman knows Rachel. Dent knows Rachel. Just no PMing

[theohall]

[*]All other Powered Good and Bad players have a 50/50 chance of death (determined by random.org)

Austin in 3, 2, 1...
<he hates chance plays in these games>

If Two Face got a kill every night, then there would be two night kills every night, which isn't right either. This is the "neutral" player attempting to kill folks and fits his role perfectly, seeing as coin flips are how his character decides if folks live or die both in the graphic novels/comics and in the movie. If someone doesn't like that type of thing in a game, don't participate.

[theohall]

What's to stop Rachel from giving up Batman to Dent or vice versa?

They are all on the same team prior to Rachel being lynched. If she sees herself dying, she could give them up to each other, or give one up to the other, but then either would still have to convince everyone else of the supposed reveal.

This could be spoofed by anyone after Rachel dies. She tells Dent who Batman is just before dying. Dent (not Two-Face) has to convince everyone to kill Batman. He can't do it by himself. Same thing if she gives up Dent (now Two-Face) to Batman. Batman still has to convince everyone to kill Two-Face.

Two-Face doesn't get any help other than the possible Gordon protection, so this doesn't seem like that big of a hole to me. Knowing a role and being able to do something about it are quite different. And Dent/Two-Face doesn't want to "reveal" because he's a) trying to win as a good guy as Dent or b) trying to win for himself as Two-Face.

Besides, once Rachel is dead, neither Batman nor Two-Face/Dent can PM with anyone.

So Rachel dies, but she PMs Batman identity to Dent prior to being killed. According to the rules Two Face is now hunting for Batman. So Two Face scans Batman. According to the rules hunted targets are killed immediatley. Just a bad idea to cripple the good guys like this.

Easiest thing to do is none of the good guys can PM, but Rachel knows the identity of Batman and Dent. Batman knows Rachel. Dent knows Rachel. Just no PMing

Good point. Missed that one.

[stessier]

Please remember this is still a work in progress, so all my answers are just what I am currently thinking. I am open to suggestions for change.

When the Joker scans, is he asking "is X Batman OR Harvey" (ie, is he scanning one player for both roles at the same time)? Is he allowed two scans (one for Batman, one for Harvey)? Or is he limited to asking "is X Batman" or "is X Harvey"?

Joker's scan is just "What is Player X?" The answer he gets back is "Batman/Harvey/Citizen."

What's to stop Rachel from giving up Batman to Dent or vice versa?

Rachel wins with the Good Guys. Batman wins with the Good Guys. Harvey Dent wins with the Good Guys.

Two Face has his own victory condition and loses in any other case.

I would suspect that Rachel would tell Batman who Harvey is but not vice versa because of the inherent danger to Batman. I would suspect she would also share information about scans. The tricky part is that she knows Harvey could go rogue and so will try to keep him from figuring out who Batman is. But they will all be acting on the same information. I think it could be an interesting Love Triangle.

This could be spoofed by anyone after Rachel dies. She tells Dent who Batman is just before dying. Dent (not Two-Face) has to convince everyone to kill Batman. He can't do it by himself. Same thing if she gives up Dent (now Two-Face) to Batman. Batman still has to convince everyone to kill Two-Face.

I think there might be a little confusion here. Dent wins with the Good Guys, but once Rachel dies, he becomes someone else - Two Face. Two Face has his own victory conditions. So Dent isn't trying to convince anyone to kill Batman. Two Face might, but it would be simpler to do it himself at night.

Two-Face doesn't get any help other than the possible Gordon protection

Two Face is not eligible for Gordon's one time sacrifice since he is no longer Dent. He can still be protected at night by Gordon just like any other player. I think that is what you meant, but just wanted to spell it out.

[stessier]

[*]All other Powered Good and Bad players have a 50/50 chance of death (determined by random.org)

Austin in 3, 2, 1...
<he hates chance plays in these games>

I know, but at least there is a story reason for this one. It really is a coin flip. What am I supposed to do - change cannon to make him happy?

[purge]

No, I think the PM thing is fine, as long as Rachel does NOT give up their identities (or hints at them).

She's a listener, not a talker.

[stessier]

1) If Harvey becomes Two-Face, will the Joker still learn his role, since he's scanning for Batman/Dent. IMO, the Joker shouldn't learn the role in this case, because the bad guys, who can all PM each other, could easily railroad the one whose become a "lone gunman" at that point, or snipe him if it hasn't been used.

Dent is gone and only Two Face exists, so the scan would not find Dent.

2) Are all lynches/kills blind other than finding out via scans from the "learn role of dead" specialists? In other words, is good guy/bad guy, but not their role, going to be known when someone dies? And what would Two Face show - good guy or bad guy?

Lynches will show Citizen or Criminal.

Dent will show Citizen.
Two Face will show Criminal.

3) If Rachel is dead, does Two Face still get the one-time Sniper protection from Gordon if it wasn't used to save Dent? I would say no, since Gordon wants Two Face dead at this point.

No sniper protection for Two Face.

[stessier]

So Rachel dies, but she PMs Batman identity to Dent prior to being killed. According to the rules Two Face is now hunting for Batman. So Two Face scans Batman. According to the rules hunted targets are killed immediatley. Just a bad idea to cripple the good guys like this.

Knowing this is a possibility, why in the world would she do this? I don't think I should restrict her free will. If she wants to screw her team it should make for an interesting post game discussion.

Easiest thing to do is none of the good guys can PM, but Rachel knows the identity of Batman and Dent. Batman knows Rachel. Dent knows Rachel. Just no PMing

I like the idea of a Cabal that really can't work together too closely for fear of the Worst Case Scenario.

[stessier]

No, I think the PM thing is fine, as long as Rachel does NOT give up their identities (or hints at them).

She's a listener, not a talker.

I really think it should be left to her discretion.

[pr0ner]

When the Joker scans, is he asking "is X Batman OR Harvey" (ie, is he scanning one player for both roles at the same time)? Is he allowed two scans (one for Batman, one for Harvey)? Or is he limited to asking "is X Batman" or "is X Harvey"?

Joker's scan is just "What is Player X?" The answer he gets back is "Batman/Harvey/Citizen."

Cool, thanks.

[Newcastle]

sign me up when you figure it out. Definitely sounds interesting.

[Sean, Minister of KtSP]

Very cool idea, stess. I'll play.

[Unagi]

No, I think the PM thing is fine, as long as Rachel does NOT give up their identities (or hints at them).

She's a listener, not a talker.

I really think it should be left to her discretion.

ABSOLUTELY

[tru1cy]

In when this starts.

[theohall]

Guess I should've added the IN when this starts as well.

[Chaosraven]

who are you??
I'm batmaN

[stessier]

I'm glad to see people think this one is close enough for Prime Time.


Sean is first though, and we're expecting our second child in mid-August. I don't think I'll want to start it then - have to see when the time comes - so for now just leave it floating in the queue.

[Austin]

[*]All other Powered Good and Bad players have a 50/50 chance of death (determined by random.org)

Austin in 3, 2, 1...
<he hates chance plays in these games>

If Two Face got a kill every night, then there would be two night kills every night, which isn't right either. This is the "neutral" player attempting to kill folks and fits his role perfectly, seeing as coin flips are how his character decides if folks live or die both in the graphic novels/comics and in the movie. If someone doesn't like that type of thing in a game, don't participate.

WT...? I just got here.

[theohall]

[*]All other Powered Good and Bad players have a 50/50 chance of death (determined by random.org)

Austin in 3, 2, 1...
<he hates chance plays in these games>

If Two Face got a kill every night, then there would be two night kills every night, which isn't right either. This is the "neutral" player attempting to kill folks and fits his role perfectly, seeing as coin flips are how his character decides if folks live or die both in the graphic novels/comics and in the movie. If someone doesn't like that type of thing in a game, don't participate.

WT...? I just got here.

[Semaj]

[*]All other Powered Good and Bad players have a 50/50 chance of death (determined by random.org)

Austin in 3, 2, 1...
<he hates chance plays in these games>

If Two Face got a kill every night, then there would be two night kills every night, which isn't right either. This is the "neutral" player attempting to kill folks and fits his role perfectly, seeing as coin flips are how his character decides if folks live or die both in the graphic novels/comics and in the movie. If someone doesn't like that type of thing in a game, don't participate.

WT...? I just got here.

Well it's more like 1.5 kills every night... but I digress.

[purge]

[*]All other Powered Good and Bad players have a 50/50 chance of death (determined by random.org)

Austin in 3, 2, 1...
<he hates chance plays in these games>

If Two Face got a kill every night, then there would be two night kills every night, which isn't right either. This is the "neutral" player attempting to kill folks and fits his role perfectly, seeing as coin flips are how his character decides if folks live or die both in the graphic novels/comics and in the movie. If someone doesn't like that type of thing in a game, don't participate.

WT...? I just got here.

What made you show up... were your eyes burning? (as clearly there is no audio )

[Newcastle]

stessier, any chance this thing is ready for prime time, or we waiting a while on this thang?

[Scoop20906]

This rule set has great promise. I'll be in for this one.

[Lagom Lite]

Very cool, count me in.

Now that Grund's game is dead, are we playing this next?