[WW] STARSHIP R.SCOTT II - Game over!

[Grundbegriff]

Let me be as clear as I can on this grund... By NOT revealing a LSS report of any kind, it appears as if you were converted...

Clarity check: If I had been a converted LSS, why would I have claimed LSS at all?

Remember: Semaj got all snipey-like just because I'm me, not because of any discrepancy over a claim.

If you're going to defend that (mistaken) position after the fact, at least make an effort at thinking the way you'd think while playing.

[Chaosraven]

Actually I believe I noted in the game I would have shot you. But yeah, even if you were converted LSS the lynch and shots should have been devoted to finding Mama.

[Newcastle]

But Grund not having gone back and seen the precise, it seemed as if you were playing coy. YOu had to have seen the shot coming, Semaj gave you plenty of time. I would have taken the shot, simply how you were still trying to act coy.

By not flashing it...you pretty much decided to eat a bullet from a marine. Meaning we not only lost someone from team corp, but we also wasted a shot.

If you had flashed it, you might have been airlocked, however, we could have used that shot toward someone from team convict. Giving us a 5-6 spot, instead of a 4-7 spot. Most likely you would have been airlocked, and we couldnt have stopped it, but we were pretty damn close at that spot.

Yes, that information would have cause more partisan fighting, but going to grave with it, only served to inflame those passions nonetheless. And trust me I would have loved to have you on our side fighting it out and trying to frame the debate that last day, instead of threatening to "take my ball and go home".

[Grundbegriff]

Actually I believe I noted in the game I would have shot you. But yeah, even if you were converted LSS the lynch and shots should have been devoted to finding Mama.

Yep. Meanwhile, the fact that I claimed a role at all and overtly declined to prove myself and was uncontested gave Semaj (and anyone else) all the premises necessary to infer that I had to be unconverted.

[Grundbegriff]

But Grund not having gone back and seen the precise, it seemed as if you were playing coy. YOu had to have seen the shot coming, Semaj gave you plenty of time. I would have taken the shot, simply how you were still trying to act coy.

Apparent coyness is not a reason to gamble with your team's only hope of victory.

By not flashing it...you pretty much decided to eat a bullet from a marine. Meaning we not only lost someone from team corp, but we also wasted a shot.

It's not my fault if someone (a) doesn't bother to read the thread, and then (b) tries to play the hero just because random.org put a gun in his hand. I can't make people think.

Yes, that information would have cause more partisan fighting, but going to grave with it, only served to inflame those passions nonetheless. And trust me I would have loved to have you on our side fighting it out and trying to frame the debate that last day, instead of threatening to "take my ball and go home".

Withholding the report made the game much more interesting, and provided the Corp with the only mechanism whereby the Convicts wouldn't dominate the vote (given the interests of the Symbiont and the Bug). Everything would've gone beautifully our way, were it not for that meddling teammate, Semaj.

[Brendan]

Just as people were willing to believe I could be a devious alien stepping forward under no pressure? Grund, you made it to N-1 right before semaj and didn't reveal... And in front of the gun you revealed but didn't prove. I would have shot you as well.

He was trying to conserve the advantage for you guys - if he'd officially revealed, the convicts would've (theoretically) gone directly after a corp player because the report read "1". If he'd suppressed it, we would all have voted for him presuming he was converted.

I do think he should've faked a 2 once he knew he was dead.

There was no way to fake a 2 on the big screen. My choice was either to broadcast the true report or not to broadcast the true report.

If I had said "2 Aliens" during my Rosebud moment, would you have believed that any more than you believed it when I kept silent on the matter?

You had clearly been surprised that Semaj had already fired the shot at you - if you'd said, as I suggested shortly after, "Well, I'd release the big screen report if I could, but Scoop tells me the order of operations is shot first, so I guess all I can do is tell y'all it's 2," I'd certainly have considered it as a possibility. Certainly, I wouldn't have been as completely confident about it being 1.

[Chaosraven]

I think I would have to place you in the devious category for claiming your own role, and leave you on questionable, like me. But tactics wise, we should have looked among the others for Mama, only taking you out after another Alien was found. You got shot for being a cold blooded arrogant SOB

[Grundbegriff]

There was no way to fake a 2 on the big screen. My choice was either to broadcast the true report or not to broadcast the true report.

If I had said "2 Aliens" during my Rosebud moment, would you have believed that any more than you believed it when I kept silent on the matter?

You had clearly been surprised that Semaj had already fired the shot at you

You can say that again.

- if you'd said, as I suggested shortly after, "Well, I'd release the big screen report if I could, but Scoop tells me the order of operations is shot first, so I guess all I can do is tell y'all it's 2," I'd certainly have considered it as a possibility.

You can't say that again. I'd never lie about a private rules clarification in-game. That's not only meta, which I dislike, but also easily falsified by wielding the fervent fuchsia.

Certainly, I wouldn't have been as completely confident about it being 1.

Assuming you thought I might do such a thing, wouldn't you have asked Scoop for confirmation?

[Grundbegriff]

I think I would have to place you in the devious category for claiming your own role, and leave you on questionable, like me. But tactics wise, we should have looked among the others for Mama, only taking you out after another Alien was found. You got shot for being a cold blooded arrogant SOB

Yep. And, as Remus never tires of pointing out, it's stupid to overestimate the threat I pose.

The reason Semaj's move was a greater blunder than Bakhtosh's is that the latter wasn't equipped with premises that should've led him elsewhere, and wasn't risking the possibility of victory on the satisfaction of his whim/gut/guess. Semaj did have premises that should've clued him in-- or at least given him doubt-- and he did bet everything on one spin of the wheel.

[Lassr]

I don't blame semaj, I would have shot you also. It felt more like you were trying to save your ass than having a plan.


Of course maybe I'm just stupid too, hell I was blind to Remus this whole game. Not my better effort.

[Grundbegriff]

I don't blame semaj, I would have shot you also. It felt more like you were trying to save your ass than having a plan.

No plan? Here are my PMs to Scoop:

As the others are waking up from cryo sleep you quickly do a life support diagnostic. The Life Support system report shows there are 2 aliens currently on board. Do you wish to make this report public?

Yeah, definitely splat that one. Everyone should know what we're dealing with today.

This is why I'll be withholding tomorrow's report.

As long as they know exactly what the situation is, the Convict/Hacker team will manipulate the situation to ensure their dominance. But they can't do that as easily if (as Remus points out) they have to worry about an expanding Alien presence.

Even if Isgrimnur was the mama, I can create the illusion that he wasn't by withholding the report and allowing the inference that the LSS was converted. Of course, some will suppose instead (and correctly) that the LSS is withholding. My hope is that my Corporate teammates will think that, and will understand why.

More thoughts. No need to reply.

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 5#p1549395 : tru1cy is essentially correct here.

My hope, as a loyal Corporate Slug, was that Lagom was playing straight if he wasn't the Symbiont, and that we'd successfully reduce the Convict population.

Mission accomplished. I'm assuming my fellow unidentified Crewmen were thinking the same way.

If I'm not converted tonight, I plan to withhold the LSS report until/unless it becomes useful to divulge it.
If I am converted tonight, then there'll be no LSS report, which will have the same effect on the humans, except that my own priorities will have changed.

All of this is just FYI, of course.

No need to reply, of course.

I think withholding the LSS report has gone very well, as I had hoped.

Remus is trying to force my hand. By suggesting that he might actually be killing a teammate/Convict, I'm forcing his. He'll have to think very carefully about how firmly he believes that I'm anything other than a Convict.

Meanwhile, the contours of the two teams are becoming clear.

If we can just contrive to kill a Convict today, that'll set up tomorrow nicely.

If I remain unconverted and receive another report of just 1 alien, I'll be strongly inclined to suppose Isgrimnur was the mother. Today, it's possible a mother collided with the Symbiont or with a theohall's closed pod. Tomorrow? I'd be surprised by two failures in a row.

If the mama is alive and converts me, of course, then things will be quite different. I've left room in my thinking for that contingency.

[Brendan]

Assuming you thought I might do such a thing, wouldn't you have asked Scoop for confirmation?

Nope, because I assume it's actually true. If someone places an order to shoot, and then the target of the shot places the order to reveal junk on the big board, I would guess that the former would happen first thus negating the latter.

[Brendan]

I think I would have to place you in the devious category for claiming your own role, and leave you on questionable, like me. But tactics wise, we should have looked among the others for Mama, only taking you out after another Alien was found. You got shot for being a cold blooded arrogant SOB

Yep. And, as Remus never tires of pointing out, it's stupid to overestimate the threat I pose.

The reason Semaj's move was a greater blunder than Bakhtosh's is that the latter wasn't equipped with premises that should've led him elsewhere, and wasn't risking the possibility of victory on the satisfaction of his whim/gut/guess. Semaj did have premises that should've clued him in-- or at least given him doubt-- and he did bet everything on one spin of the wheel.

To be fair, stessier did the exact same thing, but it just worked out better for him.

[Grundbegriff]

Assuming you thought I might do such a thing, wouldn't you have asked Scoop for confirmation?

Nope, because I assume it's actually true. If someone places an order to shoot, and then the target of the shot places the order to reveal junk on the big board, I would guess that the former would happen first thus negating the latter.

In that case, and with that understanding, I agree. Lying that the report had said "2" and that I was no longer able to broadcast it would've helped a bit. It wouldn't have secured victory, but it might've influenced, say, the vote against tru1cy.

[stessier]

I think I would have to place you in the devious category for claiming your own role, and leave you on questionable, like me. But tactics wise, we should have looked among the others for Mama, only taking you out after another Alien was found. You got shot for being a cold blooded arrogant SOB

Yep. And, as Remus never tires of pointing out, it's stupid to overestimate the threat I pose.

The reason Semaj's move was a greater blunder than Bakhtosh's is that the latter wasn't equipped with premises that should've led him elsewhere, and wasn't risking the possibility of victory on the satisfaction of his whim/gut/guess. Semaj did have premises that should've clued him in-- or at least given him doubt-- and he did bet everything on one spin of the wheel.

To be fair, stessier did the exact same thing, but it just worked out better for him.

I didn't risk everything on one bet. If I was wrong, we at worst had a tie with the Symbiot and Alien being the tie breakers. Semaj took his team from 1 down to 2 down. Big difference.

[Brendan]

How do you figure? A convict gets locked up by the symbiont each night, including tonight (if Remus turns up not alien).

[Lassr]

I don't blame semaj, I would have shot you also. It felt more like you were trying to save your ass than having a plan.

No plan? Here are my PMs to Scoop:

unfortunately we were not privy to those PMs. Wait, what am I saying, I mean unfortunately the corp was not privy to those PMs. I'm happy with the way things turned out (except I would have loved to be on the Remus vote).

[Grundbegriff]

I don't blame semaj, I would have shot you also. It felt more like you were trying to save your ass than having a plan.

No plan? Here are my PMs to Scoop:

unfortunately we were not privy to those PMs. Wait, what am I saying, I mean unfortunately the corp was not privy to those PMs. I'm happy with the way things turned out (except I would have loved to be on the Remus vote).

Remus poked the innocents when he stated with confidence exactly what the population was.

Chaosraven nearly had an aneurysm as he noticed exactly what Remus had done. Maybe he bought Remus's eventual excuse, but I think it's more likely that Chaosraven believed Remus to be a Bug, but had to sit on that info since Bug-death probably meant victory for Team Convict.

My guess from beyond the grave was that Chaosraven was holding out for the Convicts to accidentally kill one of their own, whereupon Remusdeath would've been perfectly AOK.

[Chaosraven]

Heh. Kind of a fit perhaps. I was screaming and dancing

[Remus West]

Remus poked the innocents when he stated with confidence exactly what the population was.

Heh, not at all to my mind. I had already stated I was ignoring the "Mother still alive" scenario as meaning the Convicts had already lost. Why would I then go back to assuming she might be alive? My "later excuse" was anything but and excuse. It was merely a restatement of the original position. Shrug.

[stessier]

So is 45 pages for a 2 Day game some type of records?

[Unagi]

Remus poked the innocents when he stated with confidence exactly what the population was.

Heh, not at all to my mind. I had already stated I was ignoring the "Mother still alive" scenario as meaning the Convicts had already lost. Why would I then go back to assuming she might be alive? My "later excuse" was anything but and excuse. It was merely a restatement of the original position. Shrug.

I was also totally ignoring the 'mama is alive scenario'. As were basically every other player aside from a few Corp players (I assume, to keep the fight alive). That Remus spoke of just 1 alien didn't strike me as anything but totally normal, and as he describes - it was in line with what he was saying was the case.

Some of my opinion of Remus being human, were flavored by comments that his statement that he 'knew there was 1 alien' == 'he was that alien' as being inflamatory and faction based.

[Lassr]

Remus poked the innocents when he stated with confidence exactly what the population was.

Heh, not at all to my mind. I had already stated I was ignoring the "Mother still alive" scenario as meaning the Convicts had already lost. Why would I then go back to assuming she might be alive? My "later excuse" was anything but and excuse. It was merely a restatement of the original position. Shrug.

that's why I didn't notice it I guess, I was using the same population numbers in assuming the mother was dead (post Grund death). Before that I was assuming the mother was alive.

[Lassr]

Remus poked the innocents when he stated with confidence exactly what the population was.

Heh, not at all to my mind. I had already stated I was ignoring the "Mother still alive" scenario as meaning the Convicts had already lost. Why would I then go back to assuming she might be alive? My "later excuse" was anything but and excuse. It was merely a restatement of the original position. Shrug.

I was also totally ignoring the 'mama is alive scenario'. As were basically every other player aside from a few Corp players (I assume, to keep the fight alive). That Remus spoke of just 1 alien didn't strike me as anything but totally normal, and as he describes - it was in line with what he was saying was the case.

Some of my opinion of Remus being human, were flavored by comments that his statement that he 'knew there was 1 alien' == 'he was that alien' as being inflamatory and faction based.

only thing that struck me odd with Remus was the targeting of theohall. I did not agree with that strategy at the time. A few others had the same strategy in mind so it didn't strike me as alien.

[Grundbegriff]

Y'all are right that Remus-poke '10, which (as Remus explained) wasn't really a poke, probably looked very different to Corp members than to Cons.

This much is sure: Chaosraven popped a vein for some reason, not for no reason.

[Semaj]

Let me be as clear as I can on this grund... By NOT revealing a LSS report of any kind, it appears as if you were converted...

Clarity check: If I had been a converted LSS, why would I have claimed LSS at all?

Remember: Semaj got all snipey-like just because I'm me, not because of any discrepancy over a claim.

If you're going to defend that (mistaken) position after the fact, at least make an effort at thinking the way you'd think while playing.

Yupyup

On the other hand, how long did I give you to come out before I finally took the shot? 2 days? 2 Frakking days. And yet, you remained mum on the word. It was only after I took the shot you got chatty. My bad, in the future I'll wait till it times out for you to make the necessary answer.

And no, this would be a colossal blunder isn't a proper answer. Because I very well imagine you saying it alien or not.

[Unagi]

We're basically talking about a premature semajulation.

[Semaj]

We're basically talking about a premature semajulation.

And you wonder why I take so many mean shots at you all

bastages

*runs off crying*

[Arcanis]

We're basically talking about a premature semajulation.

And you wonder why I take so many mean shots at you all

bastages

*runs off crying*

No you only took a shot at Grund this time

[Grundbegriff]

On the other hand, how long did I give you to come out before I finally took the shot? 2 days? 2 Frakking days.

You're a bit fuzzy on the timeline there. Check the distance between your claim that you had shot me and Scoop's announcement:

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 7#p1553447" target="_blank (Threat S > G)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 10:06 am

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 3#p1553463" target="_blank (S badgers G for some last words)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 10:15 am

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 4#p1553464" target="_blank (G's reply)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 10:16 am

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 2#p1553502" target="_blank (S whines that votes haven't been removed)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 10:37 am

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 5#p1553615" target="_blank (G rebuts vote removal complaint)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 12:00 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 5#p1553655" target="_blank (G removes vote)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 12:25 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 8#p1553658" target="_blank (G endorses S's marinehood)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 12:26 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 0#p1553760" target="_blank (S continues his crusade)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 02:11 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 1#p1553781" target="_blank (G rebuts again)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 02:30 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 4#p1553804" target="_blank (S replies)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 02:56 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 1#p1553881" target="_blank (G replies)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 04:56 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 3#p1554073" target="_blank (S drops hint that he hasn't shot)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 09:07 am

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 2#p1554222" target="_blank (S indicates that he has shot G)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 11:38 am

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 8#p1554248" target="_blank (G mocks S for having Bakhtoshed)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 11:58 am

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 2#p1554252" target="_blank (G offers a prophecy)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 12:01 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 3#p1554283" target="_blank (S does a 180, says he hasn't yet shot)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 12:37 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 6#p1554286" target="_blank (G asks for clarification)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 12:40 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 2#p1554312" target="_blank (G reveals his ID, says 'bye')
2010 Apr 23, Fri 01:09 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 9#p1554419" target="_blank (Brendan, like G, unsure whether shot was fired)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 04:04 pm

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 3#p1554453" target="_blank (Scoop announces shot)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 05:08 pm

[Semaj]

so a day and a halfish.. I rounded up.. I shouded rounded to 3 days on principle

[Grundbegriff]

so a day and a halfish.. I rounded up.. I shouded rounded to 3 days on principle

Wrong again. I'm sorry. Did I make that too hard?

Here:

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 7#p1553447" target="_blank (Threat S > G)
2010 Apr 22, Thu 10:06 am

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 2#p1554222" target="_blank (S indicates that he has shot G)
2010 Apr 23, Fri 11:38 am

From your first whisper that you were pondering possibly shooting me to your announcement that it was a done deal was slightly more than 24 hours.

So unclear were you that stessier immediately faulted you (http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 7#p1554227" target="_blank at 2010 Apr 23, Fri 11:38 am ) for having failed to allow adequate time between clear statement of intent and target's plea. In fact, so unclear were you that mere moments before you announced finality, I was still talking in general terms about how we might make best use of your forced shot (http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/v ... 1#p1554161" target="_blank at 2010 Apr 23, Fri 10:51 am).

Next thing I know, you're filling me with buckshot.

[Newcastle]

i think the more amusing thing to come out of this game is the valiant and steadfast steps that grund is taking to defend his honor about the shot. Carry on.


By the way scoop been thinking bout the game and what went "wrong" in my view point and hopefully in the next few days will type something up. But it really revolves around giving people the incentive to keep playing after they realize the odds are no longer in their favor and they most likely wont win...such as team corp was.. part of it is...having a second place finish & third...etc..but with different conditions.

[Grundbegriff]

i think the more amusing thing to come out of this game is the valiant and steadfast steps that grund is taking to defend his honor about the shot. Carry on.

Some sort of mechanism that secretly flips the alignment of a small number of Corp and/or Con if a condition is met would do the trick-- sort of like a mid-game Cylon conversion in BSG.

Given the way that the Convicts fought among themselves, it seems as if it would be easy for a new Corp who was once a Convict to hide among them.

[stessier]

Next thing I know, you're filling me with buckshot.

Technically I think it was a pocket incinerator - so you were most likely turned to ash. Buckshot is so 20th century.

[Chaosraven]

It could be easily handled with a simple RandomCorp counts as Convict and RandomConvict counts as Corp, perhaps, eliminating certainty...

[Scoop20906]

Wow!

Catching up on all the notes. I have to say really neat to see everyone's reactions. Alot of food for thought for the next iteration.

I definitely want to make the game a but more fun to play. I've copied down the suggestions and am currently working on a re-draft of the rulez for next time.

Please feel free to shoot your notes at me while I work on this. I got a few really neat ideas that could force some cooperation between "certain" players. Just need to flesh out how the mechanics would work.

[theohall]

For me, the antagonism generated between Corp and Convicts is what makes this fun, even though it is massively frustrating at the same time. I like the idea of a RandomCorp/Convict counting torwards the other team's victory condition. IE - take a Marine or Engineer who is disgruntled with the Corp and just needs a reason to escape. Or a Convict is former Corp and wants back in if he could only get the opportunity to prove his loyalty.

IMO, the alien and symbiont part of this are right where they need to be, although others think the alien is too overpowered.

[Brendan]

Perhaps a mechanism where someone places the killing vote on a teammate, securing their switch in loyalties permanently?

[Chaosraven]

Perhaps a mechanism where someone places the killing vote on a teammate, securing their switch in loyalties permanently?

whoa, that's wicked... I like it!