Fellowship of the Ring (WW) - Conclusion

[Lagom Lite]

Fellowship of the Ring – Evaluation

Thanks for playing! I’d like to evaluate this rule-set, it differ somewhat from standard WW games and I’d like your input for future iterations.


Some questions to ponder

Was the rule-set fun?

Was your role fun to play?
Was your role underpowered?
Was your role overpowered?

Was your faction fun to play?
Was your faction underpowered?
Was your faction overpowered?

What could have made your experience better?
Were there imbalances?
Were the rules confusing? What could be written in a clearer way?

Did the ”mule” system (”Hobbit Gameplay”) work/was fun to play (passing the Ring trophy, only certain player may carry the trophy)?

Did the victory conditions work/were fun to play (the game being about lobbing for a winning position in the final day, rather than being over once bad guys achieve voting equilibrium/all bad guys are slain)?

Was the anti-mass-outing-mechanics fun to play (Information out in the open helps the bad guys more than the good guys, initially)?



Specific Rules Questions

Should Gollum and/or Aragorn be able to target a captured player?

Should Aragorn and/or Gandalf be immune to corruption (”bouncing” the Ring off Gandalf instead of corrupting him was mentioned)? How should this be balanced?

Should the original Servants (Uruk-Hai, Witch-King) be allowed to communicate (would strengthen them)?



Problems

Being a Witch-King Convert is not fun? Could WK get another power? Which?

Hunt some Orc can be used as a phew-we-don’t-have-to-scout-a-good-guy play. Should it require the life of one Freep, to make it a real sacrifice, also boosting the nature of Captures? Which Freep should be the one to die (The first, or last, in the voting chain f.ex.)?

Tie votes. How can we resolve ties/stalling? Time limit? Something else?

If a Ringbearer other than Frodo is lynched, the Ring passes to Frodo. This is an exploitable rule that maybe should be removed, so that it always get re-distributed randomly (or through another system)?


Other

Other thoughts?

[stessier]

Thanks for running the game Lagom. You did a very nice job!

[Chaosraven]

Niiiiiiiiiice. You guys can thank Arcanis. well, the GOOD guy part of him

[Brendan]

So, Unagi, remember how you always choose the not-Brendan course of action at the end of games? This is proof that I'm always right!

Unagi was the only possible non-Scoop play for me - the rest of y'all had invalidated yourselves. The fact that Unagi had put a code in (like me) indicated that he was either Gollum or a hobbit. I just hoped it was the latter.

I figured the only safe play for Gollum would be to go after Scoop, so I was predisposed against that course of action.

That would've been MUCH easier if scoop/theo hadn't blabbed about the ring bearer. There was no good reason to do that - obviously I knew who'd given me the ring, so I knew who not to give it back to. It would've been better for stessier to wonder whether it was with me or with scoop rather than have the relative certainty that I'd have to pass it.

[Brendan]

I'll write up game thoughts later for Lagom, but I really appreciate that there are fewer outright deaths in this game - it sucks that people can be permanently eliminated before the game even starts (see Isgrimnur), so it's nice that many of the targets can potentially return to play.

[Chaosraven]

Wait, who said WK isn't fun? Who else was the WitchKing?

[Lagom Lite]

Wait, who said WK isn't fun? Who else was the WitchKing?

Witch-King Convert. I'm sure YOU had fun.

[Remus West]

Unagi was the only possible non-Scoop play for me - the rest of y'all had invalidated yourselves. The fact that Unagi had put a code in (like me) indicated that he was either Gollum or a hobbit.

This makes absolutely no sense to me but whatever. Next time I am evil I'm putting in a code for every single good role just in case. It is simple to put in a code that nobody is going to get and it is not like evil risks anything by puting an indecipherable code in one of their posts. Codes and bread crumbs mean nothing to me since anyone can do it. It is no different than openly posting "Hey, I'm role X".

[Chaosraven]

Wait, who said WK isn't fun? Who else was the WitchKing?

Witch-King Convert. I'm sure YOU had fun.

my hands were pretty well tied by the events. Failing and then blocked. Worst of all was THAT was the night the bugger caught my partner. which I stated right in the thread to him...

[Brendan]

Unagi was the only possible non-Scoop play for me - the rest of y'all had invalidated yourselves. The fact that Unagi had put a code in (like me) indicated that he was either Gollum or a hobbit.

This makes absolutely no sense to me but whatever. Next time I am evil I'm putting in a code for every single good role just in case. It is simple to put in a code that nobody is going to get and it is not like evil risks anything by puting an indecipherable code in one of their posts. Codes and bread crumbs mean nothing to me since anyone can do it. It is no different than openly posting "Hey, I'm role X".

Certainly anyone could do it - Unagi actually did it. I actually did it. theohall purportedly did it. Why? Because when you read the hobbit ruleset, you think "huh - it's going to be necessary to demonstrate, in whatever minor way possible, that I'm actually a hobbit, because when it comes down to that very last day, I need to be a target."

Unagi didn't embed two codes, one for Aragorn, and one for hobbit. Or one for Gandalf, and one for hobbit. etc.

[Isgrimnur]

I'll write up game thoughts later for Lagom, but I really appreciate that there are fewer outright deaths in this game - it sucks that people can be permanently eliminated before the game even starts (see Isgrimnur), so it's nice that many of the targets can potentially return to play.

Yeah, I very much appreciate a game where there's an opportunity for everyone to play at least through Day 1. Being offed during an opening night isn't enjoyable. "Thanks for signing up, better luck next time."

I don't have much to say about being a convert, as I was late enough as to not make much of a difference. My early absence and having to rapidly catch up kept me from getting as in-depth to it as I would have liked. But all in all, a good game certainly with a complex ruleset that kept things interesting.

[stessier]

Remember this is all from Gollum's point of view.

• Was the rule-set fun?
  • Yes, I had fun. I was pretty much along for the ride though. My only thought was to try and stay alive until the end. Finding the Ring would be a bonus.
• Was your role fun to play?
  • I felt helpless, but that is pretty much the definition of the role. I didn't like that my lynching would show Gollum. There was no where to hide and no deniability. The same thing about getting the Ring - knowing Gollum has it and if I were ever captured with it, that was it.
• Was your role underpowered?
  • I think the role should steal by Day rather than by Night. This would prevent people from saying where the Ring is at any time.
• Was your role overpowered?
  • I sure didn't think so
• Was your faction fun to play?
  • It was at the end!
• What could have made your experience better?
• Were the rules confusing? What could be written in a clearer way?
  • Took a few readings, but made sense to me.
• Did the victory conditions work/were fun to play (the game being about lobbing for a winning position in the final day, rather than being over once bad guys achieve voting equilibrium/all bad guys are slain)?
  • Yes, although Gollum has the smallest chance of winning, IMO
• Was the anti-mass-outing-mechanics fun to play (Information out in the open helps the bad guys more than the good guys, initially)?
  • Yes, I think you designed that pretty well
  
  Specific Rules Questions
• Should Gollum and/or Aragorn be able to target a captured player?
  • Aragorn should not be able to. It wouldn't make any sense. Maybe Gollum. Have to think about it.
• Should Aragorn and/or Gandalf be immune to corruption (”bouncing” the Ring off Gandalf instead of corrupting him was mentioned)? How should this be balanced?
  • Aragorn should be able to self protect like any other protection. Gandalf immune to the Ring is good, but he shouldn't know where it game from. Maybe if it is tossed to him, it ends up on the ground and he returns it to Frodo. If Frodo is dead/captured, it is randomly distributed to a Hobbit (leading to a possible instant corruption).
• Should the original Servants (Uruk-Hai, Witch-King) be allowed to communicate (would strengthen them)?
  • Not with their current problems. They could scan through the field too quickly in that case.
  
  Problems
• Being a Witch-King Convert is not fun? Could WK get another power? Which?
  • Yeah, I can see that. Don't know how to fix it though.
• Hunt some Orc can be used as a phew-we-don’t-have-to-scout-a-good-guy play. Should it require the life of one Freep, to make it a real sacrifice, also boosting the nature of Captures? Which Freep should be the one to die (The first, or last, in the voting chain f.ex.)?
  • Have to think about that one too. I think it actually works as designed. The problem was the Uruk died so soon. Maybe make it so they can only release 1 person / turn rather than everyone gets out of jail with each Hunt? Maybe make it a random release too so we couldn't preferentially leave Gollum captive?
• Tie votes. How can we resolve ties/stalling? Time limit? Something else?
  • I thought about it and under the current rules, I have no idea.
• If a Ringbearer other than Frodo is lynched, the Ring passes to Frodo. This is an exploitable rule that maybe should be removed, so that it always get re-distributed randomly (or through another system)?
  • Random redistribution I think would be best.

[Remus West]

my hands were pretty well tied by the events.

This is what I said was an issue. As soon as the Orcs died you had nothing to do other than try and portray a Hobbit. there was no direct action you could take to further your cause. Even if you hit everytime from then on for conversions your side would never control the vote and you could not capture the ring. The only hope you had was that someone would be foolish enough to pass you the ring on the final night because any night sooner than that would simply have resulted in you being lynched. Evil had their hands tied behind their backs for this imo.

[stessier]

That would've been MUCH easier if scoop/theo hadn't blabbed about the ring bearer. There was no good reason to do that - obviously I knew who'd given me the ring, so I knew who not to give it back to. It would've been better for stessier to wonder whether it was with me or with scoop rather than have the relative certainty that I'd have to pass it.

I knew it wasn't with Scoop (I stole from him). Had it been unknown, I would have gone for Unagi (I think). It was Unagi or Scoop on the last day. I was leaning Unagi until I actually sent in my note.

[Brendan]

my hands were pretty well tied by the events.

This is what I said was an issue. As soon as the Orcs died you had nothing to do other than try and portray a Hobbit. there was no direct action you could take to further your cause. Even if you hit everytime from then on for conversions your side would never control the vote and you could not capture the ring. The only hope you had was that someone would be foolish enough to pass you the ring on the final night because any night sooner than that would simply have resulted in you being lynched. Evil had their hands tied behind their backs for this imo.

Man, it didn't seem like they had their hands tied behind their backs at the end - I had a 1 in 7 chance of picking the one guy who wouldn't outright lose it, and even if I selected him correctly, it was still possible for Gollum to steal it from him.

I thought the ending suitably heroic for the theme.

[stessier]

Unagi was the only possible non-Scoop play for me - the rest of y'all had invalidated yourselves. The fact that Unagi had put a code in (like me) indicated that he was either Gollum or a hobbit.

This makes absolutely no sense to me but whatever. Next time I am evil I'm putting in a code for every single good role just in case. It is simple to put in a code that nobody is going to get and it is not like evil risks anything by puting an indecipherable code in one of their posts. Codes and bread crumbs mean nothing to me since anyone can do it. It is no different than openly posting "Hey, I'm role X".

Certainly anyone could do it - Unagi actually did it. I actually did it. theohall purportedly did it. Why? Because when you read the hobbit ruleset, you think "huh - it's going to be necessary to demonstrate, in whatever minor way possible, that I'm actually a hobbit, because when it comes down to that very last day, I need to be a target."

Unagi didn't embed two codes, one for Aragorn, and one for hobbit. Or one for Gandalf, and one for hobbit. etc.

How did you know he didn't? Because he only gave you one set?

Codes are meaningless unless they are for Masons where they can complement each other. I'm with Remus, I'll always have a code from now on. Your strategy will have to change.

[Brendan]

Codes are meaningless unless they are for Masons where they can complement each other. I'm with Remus, I'll always have a code from now on. Your strategy will have to change.

For it to have been meaningless, his string of numbers would've needed to translate into multiple possible roles depending on whatever system he used to decode them. That seemed unlikely to me. Had he thrown 3 separate codes out, I wouldn't have believed him.

I would be happy for you guys to hamstring yourselves in the future by generating numerous competing codes though.

[stessier]

Codes are meaningless unless they are for Masons where they can complement each other. I'm with Remus, I'll always have a code from now on. Your strategy will have to change.

For it to have been meaningless, his string of numbers would've needed to translate into multiple possible roles depending on whatever system he used to decode them. That seemed unlikely to me. Had he thrown 3 separate codes out, I wouldn't have believed him.

I would be happy for you guys to hamstring yourselves in the future by generating numerous competing codes though.

You don't make it all the same type of code. You throw out a string of numbers for Hobbit. You use Morse Code for Gandalf. You use capitalization for Aragorn. Then you show the code you need. If someone questions you about the string of numbers, you say it was gibberish to occupy stessier/Chaos.

What type of Master Spy are you!?!?

[Newcastle]

Wait, who said WK isn't fun? Who else was the WitchKing?

Witch-King Convert. I'm sure YOU had fun.

my hands were pretty well tied by the events. Failing and then blocked. Worst of all was THAT was the night the bugger caught my partner. which I stated right in the thread to him...

i actually felt your frustration. I was all alone and just tryin to be within the discussion. I think evil had a hard road in this game. We had 1 lucky break really, and that was gandalf coming forth. WK had no real options of whom to kill, losing the power to kill/kidnap early in the game hurt..thats coming from my point of view. I dont think the chain of hobbits was game breaking, but there should be a way of taking them out of the game or neutralizing them. Because you had 4 people who were permanent good, with the only option being to kidnap them, but that ability was lost early.

Not only that, but with kidnapping scoop, it proved him as frodo. that also created a huge roadblock for team evil, because well people had options on whom to gravitate toward.

[Newcastle]

my hands were pretty well tied by the events.

This is what I said was an issue. As soon as the Orcs died you had nothing to do other than try and portray a Hobbit. there was no direct action you could take to further your cause. Even if you hit everytime from then on for conversions your side would never control the vote and you could not capture the ring. The only hope you had was that someone would be foolish enough to pass you the ring on the final night because any night sooner than that would simply have resulted in you being lynched. Evil had their hands tied behind their backs for this imo.

Man, it didn't seem like they had their hands tied behind their backs at the end - I had a 1 in 7 chance of picking the one guy who wouldn't outright lose it, and even if I selected him correctly, it was still possible for Gollum to steal it from him.

I thought the ending suitably heroic for the theme.

but evil had no mechanism to counter that choice all we had were words. You had the power pretty much this whole game. Evil really had an uphill fight the whole way through. I was pretty much alone the whole way through, i decided to not try to guess/make contact with team evil. I kind of had some people who were on my suspicious list...and that is the nature. But i had no powers, except for..."hi i am a hobbit, let me see ring please".

Team evil really had limited options on whom to corrupt, see hobbits...and team evil lost 33% of the potential coruptees by day 2...via the lynch (truicy) and hte killing of semaj). So there really was no area they could get new recruits or sway the game.

[Newcastle]

now, the negative comments am saying, are basically meant more for construction value and not angst. I think this rule set can have a lot of potential and could be a lot more dynamic. I think one of the ways would be for team evil to actually be able to talk (WK & urukhai) not boromir (until converted).

It was a nice first run through i will say and it was fun in some parts.

[Scoop20906]

So, Unagi, remember how you always choose the not-Brendan course of action at the end of games? This is proof that I'm always right!

Unagi was the only possible non-Scoop play for me - the rest of y'all had invalidated yourselves. The fact that Unagi had put a code in (like me) indicated that he was either Gollum or a hobbit. I just hoped it was the latter.

I figured the only safe play for Gollum would be to go after Scoop, so I was predisposed against that course of action.

That would've been MUCH easier if scoop/theo hadn't blabbed about the ring bearer. There was no good reason to do that - obviously I knew who'd given me the ring, so I knew who not to give it back to. It would've been better for stessier to wonder whether it was with me or with scoop rather than have the relative certainty that I'd have to pass it.

I never blabbed about who had the ring. I did my best to keep everyone as in the dark as possible but once Theohall blabbed I had no other option but to be confusing.

[theohall]

Well played Btendan. This once again proves I am always wrong about Unagi. And I should not have blabbed about the Ring.

Great ruleset. If Gandalf or any good is given the bounce thing, it would need a corresponding type improvement for bad. Right now, it is darn near perfectly balanced.

[Scoop20906]

Well played Btendan. This once again proves I am always wrong about Unagi. And I should not have blabbed about the Ring.

Great ruleset. If Gandalf or any good is given the bounce thing, it would need a corresponding type improvement for bad. Right now, it is darn near perfectly balanced.

Theohall, not trying to pick on you but why did you tell everyone you had the ring. You were perfectly invisible and I would have spoken up for you if the scouting vote was going against you.

I was doing my level best to make it seem as if I was looking for someone to toss the ring too in case you wanted to pass it back to me.

[Unagi]

Unagi was the only possible non-Scoop play for me - the rest of y'all had invalidated yourselves. The fact that Unagi had put a code in (like me) indicated that he was either Gollum or a hobbit.

This makes absolutely no sense to me but whatever. Next time I am evil I'm putting in a code for every single good role just in case. It is simple to put in a code that nobody is going to get and it is not like evil risks anything by puting an indecipherable code in one of their posts. Codes and bread crumbs mean nothing to me since anyone can do it. It is no different than openly posting "Hey, I'm role X".

Still... every now and then - they work.



Awesome.

Brendan, I owe you a couple rounds. Well done.



Lagom, truly - great game - great ideas, great hosting, everything.

/stands up - applauds!

[Scoop20906]

Fellowship of the Ring – Evaluation[/b]

Thanks for playing! I’d like to evaluate this rule-set, it differ somewhat from standard WW games and I’d like your input for future iterations.


Some questions to ponder

Was the rule-set fun? Yes, I had alot of fun.

Was your role fun to play? Yes, Frodo is a great role to play. I went from feeling helpless and burdened at the beginning to feeling in control over the fellowships fate at the middle and then simple bystander at the end. A nice progression.
Was your role underpowered? I don't think so. One person needs to be able to keep the ring more than one turn.
Was your role overpowered? I didn't but others might.

Was your faction fun to play? Yes
Was your faction underpowered? No
Was your faction overpowered? Once we knocked off the Uruk we were over powered. How about adding a 2nd Uruk.

What could have made your experience better? I'm not sure.
Were there imbalances? I think there needs to be more free people.
Were the rules confusing? What could be written in a clearer way? The ending conditions are a little hinky. Not sure how to rework that tho.

Did the ”mule” system (”Hobbit Gameplay”) work/was fun to play (passing the Ring trophy, only certain player may carry the trophy)? Passing the ring is a great mechanic. Since the ring never really fell into the servants hands we don't know how that would have panned out. It certainly would have made things more desperate.

Did the victory conditions work/were fun to play (the game being about lobbing for a winning position in the final day, rather than being over once bad guys achieve voting equilibrium/all bad guys are slain)? I like the victory conditions and Im so happy the game came down to one choice at the end. Can't think of a better way to end a game.

Was the anti-mass-outing-mechanics fun to play (Information out in the open helps the bad guys more than the good guys, initially)? I think so. The hobbits really had to be careful about what to say.



Specific Rules Questions

Should Gollum and/or Aragorn be able to target a captured player? No, that would break the game since if a ring bearer is captured its too clear he has it. Too easy. Make them work for it.

Should Aragorn and/or Gandalf be immune to corruption (”bouncing” the Ring off Gandalf instead of corrupting him was mentioned)? I like the way this works. However, I think it should be more clear to the fellowship when a special is corrupted. Not naming the player but simply a "ominous feeling falls over the fellowship" type of statement. How should this be balanced? Not sure.

Should the original Servants (Uruk-Hai, Witch-King) be allowed to communicate (would strengthen them)? Yes, I definitely think they should have a private forum for just the two of them.



Problems

Being a Witch-King Convert is not fun? Could WK get another power? Allowing the Uruk and WK to communicate should help alot. Since WK scans for the One Ring he can pass it on to Uruk. That should make it more fun. Make it to Uruks also so if one goes down the ability is still available. Only one WK tho.

Hunt some Orc can be used as a phew-we-don’t-have-to-scout-a-good-guy play. Should it require the life of one Freep, to make it a real sacrifice, also boosting the nature of Captures? Which Freep should be the one to die (The first, or last, in the voting chain f.ex.)? Free people disappeared fast in this game. You would have a real problem if hunting is not available towards the end of the game.

Tie votes. How can we resolve ties/stalling? Time limit? Something else? Time limits didn't seem necessary this game. Everyone was into it. Not sure about ties. Make them vote until there is a majority I believe.

If a Ringbearer other than Frodo is lynched, the Ring passes to Frodo. This is an exploitable rule that maybe should be removed, so that it always get re-distributed randomly (or through another system)? It is an exploitable rule and one I wanted to exploit. Make it a random pick up then.


Other

Other thoughts?

Lagom, you did a masterful job. As you clearly understand, the storytelling potential of these games is massive and you took full advantage. My favorite part creating these games are setting up a situation and allowing people's imaginations to go crazy. I look forward to your future games. KUDOS!!

[theohall]

Well played Btendan. This once again proves I am always wrong about Unagi. And I should not have blabbed about the Ring.

Great ruleset. If Gandalf or any good is given the bounce thing, it would need a corresponding type improvement for bad. Right now, it is darn near perfectly balanced.

Theohall, not trying to pick on you but why did you tell everyone you had the ring. You were perfectly invisible and I would have spoken up for you if the scouting vote was going against you.

I was doing my level best to make it seem as if I was looking for someone to toss the ring too in case you wanted to pass it back to me.

Real life distractions led me to act hastily. No real excuse for it. It was just a plain, old stupid mistake.

[theohall]

Well played Btendan. This once again proves I am always wrong about Unagi. And I should not have blabbed about the Ring.

Great ruleset. If Gandalf or any good is given the bounce thing, it would need a corresponding type improvement for bad. Right now, it is darn near perfectly balanced.

Theohall, not trying to pick on you but why did you tell everyone you had the ring. You were perfectly invisible and I would have spoken up for you if the scouting vote was going against you.

I was doing my level best to make it seem as if I was looking for someone to toss the ring too in case you wanted to pass it back to me.

Real life distractions led me to act hastily. No real excuse for it. It was just a plain, old stupid mistake.

[Semaj]

clearly the good guys won by my new policy of guiding without being there.

Glad you got all my hints I was shouting out at my computer screen. WTG.

I'ma give myself a Potb (Pat on the back) for another game won...

Heh..

GG guys.

[Grundbegriff]

Great job! That was one in a million, kid!

[Grundbegriff]

Unagi was the only possible non-Scoop play for me - the rest of y'all had invalidated yourselves. The fact that Unagi had put a code in (like me) indicated that he was either Gollum or a hobbit.

This makes absolutely no sense to me but whatever. Next time I am evil I'm putting in a code for every single good role just in case. It is simple to put in a code that nobody is going to get and it is not like evil risks anything by puting an indecipherable code in one of their posts. Codes and bread crumbs mean nothing to me since anyone can do it. It is no different than openly posting "Hey, I'm role X".

Yeah, I don't get that, either. Anyone can put in a code, and people have often put in spurious codes.

I totally disregard them, since they do nothing to authenticate.

That said, Brendan apparently trusted them, provided one, was inclined to trust the other guy who did likewise, and was right. So you can't argue with success.

[Grundbegriff]

Certainly anyone could do it - Unagi actually did it. I actually did it. theohall purportedly did it.

I did it. (I said I was a Hobbit in a context in which I might've been joking, or might've been leaking truth). You threw me under the Mordor Express anyhow.

Unagi didn't embed two codes, one for Aragorn, and one for hobbit. Or one for Gandalf, and one for hobbit. etc.

Would you have been able to tell if he had? Would anyone? Are you sure he didn't?

There's at least one player here who has repeatedly seeded his posts with morsels that could be viewed, in retrospect with the right lenses, as breadcrumbs.

Basically, you lucked out. But hey-- the luck was good!

[Brendan]

Certainly anyone could do it - Unagi actually did it. I actually did it. theohall purportedly did it.

I did it. (I said I was a Hobbit in a context in which I might've been joking, or might've been leaking truth). You threw me under the Mordor Express anyhow.

Ha! I didn't vote for you. I'd just put you on my list as a probable hobbit!

Unagi didn't embed two codes, one for Aragorn, and one for hobbit. Or one for Gandalf, and one for hobbit. etc.

Would you have been able to tell if he had? Would anyone? Are you sure he didn't?

There's at least one player here who has repeatedly seeded his posts with morsels that could be viewed, in retrospect with the right lenses, as breadcrumbs.

Basically, you lucked out. But hey-- the luck was good!

Look, it wasn't entirely luck.

Early in the course of the game, Unagi posted his numeric code. He said, "I've posted a code." He posted no other numeric codes. If, later on, he'd said "Well, ignore that numeric code, because I've got this other crazy anagram system that explains that I'm Gandalf!" I'd have ignored it because he'd clearly have created fallback options that would inspire distrust.

But yeah, it was still a crapshoot. I just needed to have something to tip me over to which non-Scoop/non-theohall guy I was going to throw the thing to, and that was my particular predilection.

[Grundbegriff]

I think <Gollum> should steal by Day rather than by Night. This would prevent people from saying where the Ring is at any time.

I think this is a great idea. And it would be even better if the person from whom the Ring is stolen doesn't find out until later, when he tries to do something with it!

# Should Aragorn and/or Gandalf be immune to corruption (”bouncing” the Ring off Gandalf instead of corrupting him was mentioned)? How should this be balanced?

Aragorn should be able to self protect like any other protection. Gandalf immune to the Ring is good, but he shouldn't know where it game from. Maybe if it is tossed to him, it ends up on the ground and he returns it to Frodo. If Frodo is dead/captured, it is randomly distributed to a Hobbit (leading to a possible instant corruption).

I like the idea that tossing the Ring to Gandalf automatically sends it to Frodo. That's better than making Gandalf immune to corruption (very much against canon) or immediately corrupted (also against canon).

[Unagi]

Samwise should get billing and a detect gollum power

[redrun]

Some questions to ponder

Was the rule-set fun?

-- I enjoyed it. The Uruk-Hai has an interesting dilemma: hunt and risk giving information to good, or not hunt and fail to advance evil's cause.

Was your role fun to play?

-- Killing and capturing - what's not to like?

Was your role underpowered?

-- I don't think so. It was tempting early on to go after players I thought might be evil to find my teammate(s), however in the end I figured it better to try to harm the good side.

Was your role overpowered?

-- I don't think so. the dilemma I spoke of earlier balanced out some of the power of Uruk-Hai.

Was your faction fun to play?

-- Yes.

Was your faction underpowered?
Was your faction overpowered?

-- Dunno. The Uruk-Hai dying took away a lot of evil's power. Perhaps too much power in one evil character?

What could have made your experience better?

-- Not getting scanned on the second night.

Were there imbalances?

-- See above. Balance between evil and good? I don't think I've played enough to have a good feel for it, but it seemed to me that things balanced out pretty well. The unbreakable hobbits were just a bit annoying from the point of evil.

Were the rules confusing? What could be written in a clearer way?

-- <shrug> It's a complex rule set, but this is the first time playing it for everyone.

Did the ”mule” system (”Hobbit Gameplay”) work/was fun to play (passing the Ring trophy, only certain player may carry the trophy)?

-- I think it did and fit well with the theme of the game.

Did the victory conditions work/were fun to play (the game being about lobbing for a winning position in the final day, rather than being over once bad guys achieve voting equilibrium/all bad guys are slain)?

-- I liked the ending, with evil trying so hard to be hobbits. I think it'd have been very interesting if Gollum had managed a steal and the party had needed to scout him to get the ring back.

Was the anti-mass-outing-mechanics fun to play (Information out in the open helps the bad guys more than the good guys, initially)?

-- Yup.

Specific Rules Questions

Should Gollum and/or Aragorn be able to target a captured player?

-- I don't think so. It'd take away a lot of the hunt/scout options. Knowing that Gollum can grab the ring means anytime the ringbearer is captured the party has to scout within two days - and it takes away one of evil's win conditions (get rid of free people and grab the ringbearer).

Should Aragorn and/or Gandalf be immune to corruption (”bouncing” the Ring off Gandalf instead of corrupting him was mentioned)? How should this be balanced?

-- This seems like it would give a lot of power to good - can use the ring to test claims of Gandalf/Aragorn and scout anyone who claims such but still receives the ring. Perhaps make them immune as long as another free person exists and corrupt a random uncorrupt free person?

Should the original Servants (Uruk-Hai, Witch-King) be allowed to communicate (would strengthen them)?

-- That would have been nice. It would give them a big advantage within a couple of turns.

Problems

Being a Witch-King Convert is not fun? Could WK get another power? Which?

-- Any game with corruption/infection/etc. is going to have this problem. Once a target is known (often by coming forward and giving their team knowledge) they will be corrupted quickly. Not sure about this.

Hunt some Orc can be used as a phew-we-don’t-have-to-scout-a-good-guy play. Should it require the life of one Freep, to make it a real sacrifice, also boosting the nature of Captures? Which Freep should be the one to die (The first, or last, in the voting chain f.ex.)?

-- I think team good has enough of a problem with the scout_while_free_people are left .vs. taking out evil.

Tie votes. How can we resolve ties/stalling? Time limit? Something else?

-- Let the ringbearer decide! Hmmm - could actually do this - it'd force team good to avoid the chance of tie votes if it outed the ringbearer.

If a Ringbearer other than Frodo is lynched, the Ring passes to Frodo. This is an exploitable rule that maybe should be removed, so that it always get re-distributed randomly (or through another system)?

-- Perhaps randomly to team good/evil according to whomever had it before? I do think this was a big help for team good once the Uruk-Hai was dead. Give someone the ring at night - if evil (not gollum) has it in the morning, scout them before they can give it away. Frodo gets it back, passes it first thing at night. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Other thoughts?

-- Overall, I'd suggest not making a whole lot of changes and seeing how it plays out. This game had a number of determining factors that strongly shaped this session - Frodo's capture, Uruk-Hai dying fairly early, Gandolf being protected the night he found the Uruk-Hai. I think things could have gone very differently, changing the overall play. I really like the number of balances - Uruk-Hai's power is both helpful/hurtful for evil, Frodo's early capture gave team good a steady trustable - but it also forced the start of pass_the_ring, Gandolf coming forward means he's probably going to end up turned - a noble last deed so to speak (ya know, as in "you shall not pass" .vs. the Balrog).

-- I'd love to play this again, I'm curious how else it could have gone, I see so may options of what could have happened - I think you've got a well built game here. I really liked the way that the hobbits had so much control at the end, but it was up to each hobbit to make their own decision on whom to trust. (BTW, hobbits: congradulations on that - a well earned win IMO.) Oh, and the overlord's writeups were just plain fun to read. Thanks!

[Newcastle]

Fellowship of the Ring – Evaluation

Thanks for playing! I’d like to evaluate this rule-set, it differ somewhat from standard WW games and I’d like your input for future iterations.


Some questions to ponder

Was the rule-set fun? Yes and No. The overall i had a lot of fun in the game simply trying to wheedle the ring my way. i wasnt sucessful when all was said and done… but i think i played my role well enough that at least I was perceived sa mostly innocent. No, because I felt that team evil was relatively powerless for a good stretch of the game.
Was your role fun to play? It was a bit blind, and I felt as if I was swimming against the tide the whole time, in pretty much Me V. everyone else. I knew I had an ally out there, but wasn’t sure how to connect w/ them
Was your role underpowered? I think underpowered. I dont think i brought much to team evil. All I did was scan for good, but I had no tools to turn the game and no way to contact my team mates.
Was your role overpowered? Nope

Was your faction fun to play? It was.
Was your faction underpowered? Yes -
Was your faction overpowered? – I think so, or the powers need to be re-organized somehow.

What could have made your experience better? For the first time out I thought this was a pretty good run. There are kinks in there and I will hit those in a bit (I’ll hit this later)
Were there imbalances? Yes
Were the rules confusing? What could be written in a clearer way? I think maybe a section on the ring, and maybe how it could have been passed instead buried within the hobbit section. It really came down my not studying the rules enough and understanding a lot of the nuances.

Did the ”mule” system (”Hobbit Gameplay”) work/was fun to play (passing the Ring trophy, only certain player may carry the trophy)?- I think its neat, but I think the block of hobbits were overpowered to a degree. In that team evil had no method of neutralizing after Urukhai was dead. They could pretty much do what they wanted with a bit of communication.

Did the victory conditions work/were fun to play (the game being about lobbing for a winning position in the final day, rather than being over once bad guys achieve voting equilibrium/all bad guys are slain)? – yes and no, I know that team evil was still in the hunt, but I didn’t think we had a realistic chance at winning, or better stated, there wasn’t much we could do to tilt the game in our favor outside of depending on a slip from team good.

Was the anti-mass-outing-mechanics fun to play (Information out in the open helps the bad guys more than the good guys, initially)? Which ones were those?

Specific Rules Questions

Should Gollum and/or Aragorn be able to target a captured player? I think maybe kill sure.

Should Aragorn and/or Gandalf be immune to corruption (”bouncing” the Ring off Gandalf instead of corrupting him was mentioned)? How should this be balanced? Nope, I think they should be able to be corrupted, as long as Freeps are part of team evils power base.

Should the original Servants (Uruk-Hai, Witch-King) be allowed to communicate (would strengthen them)? Yes definitely.



Problems

Being a Witch-King Convert is not fun? Could WK get another power? Which? I think perhaps team evil should always have the ability to kill a freep, or capture a hobbit. It should not be person dependant.

I would split the witch kings powers between two players. 1 seeks the ring, 1 corrupts a player.
-I think an added power perhaps would be that team evil has the power to corrupt a hobbit who already had the ring. This would give them a larger pool of players to try to convert.

Hunt some Orc can be used as a phew-we-don’t-have-to-scout-a-good-guy play. Should it require the life of one Freep, to make it a real sacrifice, also boosting the nature of Captures? Which Freep should be the one to die (The first, or last, in the voting chain f.ex.)?

-I think one aspect here is a true freep will willingly give there life early, realizing that they could potentially be corrupted and be on team evil. As long as they willingly sacrifice (a la truicy). They really only had value as fodder.

Tie votes. How can we resolve ties/stalling? Time limit? Something else? Let the players work it out, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tie vote be an issue.

If a Ringbearer other than Frodo is lynched, the Ring passes to Frodo. This is an exploitable rule that maybe should be removed, so that it always get re-distributed randomly (or through another system)?

Yeah that should be changed.

Other

Other thoughts?

Team evil had no way of attaining the ring on their own, in terms of forcing it. We could delay it, yes. We could also try to deceive our way to it, but no way to “rip” it from their hands so to speak. I actually think that is an issue, since we literally have to depend on team good from “slipping” up.

Also if team evil attained the ring, I as boromir, had no idea who to pass it on to. And also, I would immediately be lynched, before I had a chance to pass it on.

Ring – I think there should be an incentive for frodo to pass the ring around. It was too easy to identify frodo via the capture, yes it was luck but it turned out a nice blessing for team good.

I think if a hobbit has touched the ring they can become corrupted. Hence more risk in passing the ring around. I think also if they are caught, the ring should go to team evil.

Also, if they announce they have the ring while being lynched, the ring should be passed to the opposite team.

Ok I realize a lot of these suggestions buff team evil, but I felt that the only chance we had at winning was my intercepting the ring via some sweet talk. After urukhai died we lost a lot of power to dictate and o anything in game. The base line though is that we really couldn’t do anything to shake up the game or move the game in our favor I felt.

I would also be aware of restricting yourself to strict interpretation of the LOTRO lore when devising the game, since it could hamstring you in terms of balance

I will say I did have fun in the game, and I think you pulled it off pretty damn well for the first time for this rule set. So although it might seem that a lot of these suggestions are negative, really am meaning them in a contructive matter.

[stessier]

Should the Evil Team get to communicate?

Many have said yes. I think, as currently devised, it would break the game to let Uruk and WK talk. They would be able to look for the Ring, Convert Someone, and Capture/Kill someone all in the same night. In 3 days, they could pretty much rule the game.

A few possible tweaks:

• If the Uruk dies, wait a day and the WK can appoint one of his Corrupted Souls as the Uruk. If no one is Corrupted, then no Uruk can be appointed until there is a Corrupted. The day delay is the Good Bonus for taking out Uruk. Yes, the Uruk would then know the WK, but they would have never talked, so I think it could work.
• Whichever of the Evils makes contact with Boromir, gets to talk to Boromir. So if the WK tries to convert him, he becomes corrupted but can talk with the WK. If Uruk tries to Capture/Kill Boromir, the Uruk gets to talk to him. It's only one or the other, though, not both.

I don't think letting Sam Wise look for Gollum is a good thing. You already have a way to look for him - toss him the Ring! I was scared of stealing it too early but absolutely terrified of getting it passed to me because there was no way to hide and both sides wanted me dead. Give Gollum some shadows for him to skulk in!

[Unagi]

I agree with stessier, if the evil team speaks - that changes the entire balance on this one.

That the evil team can Kill and Convert - that's mighty powerful.

[Unagi]

I don't think letting Sam Wise look for Gollum is a good thing. You already have a way to look for him - toss him the Ring! I was scared of stealing it too early but absolutely terrified of getting it passed to me because there was no way to hide and both sides wanted me dead. Give Gollum some shadows for him to skulk in!

Um, yeah - no. The fellowship would like to find you, but they aren't 'passing rings around' to do it.
(perhaps on Journey 5, if the Uruk is dead....)