LOST 2 - Smoke and Mirrors: Game Over: Evil Triumphs!

[Remus West]

I have a lot of useful information site wise that we could use.

Other than Hex 4 and 9 I (well, Widmore) have the Island mapped. Those two are Beachcraft and Pearl. The Heart is narrowed to two Hexes that trapped players in the same time frame.

[Newcastle]

locations that Team lost is aware of:
1 = Orchid
2 ?
3 Tempest
4 ?
5 Lighthouse
6 Barracks
7 ?
8 well
9 pearl
10 swan
11 Black rock
12 Jacob (might be cofnused with #14
13 Arrow
14 collosal statue (i might have this mixed with #12)
15 tempple
16 staff
17 runway
18 flame
19 ?

[Remus West]

Since it is vital that we lock down the temple and prevent any resurections can team evil win.

We will control tomorrow too so that won't matter.

BTW, if MiB took out redrun and stessier then Unagi has to be a Candidate so we will need to lynch him now that I think on that.

[LordMortis]

The well is in hex 7 in the present.

I was specifically told that I could not exercise my powers while in the well. Can we escape the island in the past? I didn't think that was an option.

[Newcastle]

I have a lot of useful information site wise that we could use.

Other than Hex 4 and 9 I (well, Widmore) have the Island mapped. Those two are Beachcraft and Pearl. The Heart is narrowed to two Hexes that trapped players in the same time frame.

Sorry redrun to steal your thunder here.....and massive props goes out to you right now......but this secret has been burning like a red hot fever!

Team lost managed to find the flame on night 1, and have been coordinating in code since then.

Also, watch out, tempest (3) is primed with the death mix, so anyone can use it to kill. I am within range of it, so that is also an option.

Maybe we can finish this off today? I am not sure where unagi is in the present though, the last check he was in the barracks, yesterday, in the present.

[LordMortis]

I have only taken out Brendan. He obviously was not a candidate. Newcastle used to be a candidate but he got converted.

[Newcastle]

Since it is vital that we lock down the temple and prevent any resurections can team evil win.

We will control tomorrow too so that won't matter.

BTW, if MiB took out redrun and stessier then Unagi has to be a Candidate so we will need to lynch him now that I think on that.

Their deaths was my doing via the death mix of the tempest, was teh night I was recruited. They were sitting on the flame. I know I was a candidate. I suspect that Brendan was Desmond, all but hurley were accounted for on my team. I suspect that theohall was sayid also. i suspect that Hurley = unagi.

Also I was a candidate, I did a scan. I suspect also that stessier was a candidate.

[Remus West]

1 Orchid
2 Well - Trapped Present
3 Tempest
4 Beach craft Wreckage
5 Lighthouse
6 Barracks
7 Well - Trapped Present
8 well - Trapped Past - Booby-trapped right now Do not go there solo in the Present unless you are the MiB
9 pearl
10 swan
11 Black rock
12 Jacob's Cave - not where to kill him
13 Arrow - Armed to kill in the Present do not go there solo unless you are the MiB
14 colossal statue - Need to go here to Kill Jacob in the Present
15 temple
16 staff
17 runway
18 flame
19 Tape Dump

Edited to reflect Team Widmore's knowledge.

[Newcastle]

The well is in hex 7 in the present.

I was specifically told that I could not exercise my powers while in the well. Can we escape the island in the past? I didn't think that was an option.

I can not help you on 7 fyi. I am too far out.

[Remus West]

The well is in hex 7 in the present.

I was specifically told that I could not exercise my powers while in the well. Can we escape the island in the past? I didn't think that was an option.

The Plane is only there in the Present so you can not get out of here in the Past.

Semaj is trapped in a Well in the Present so he is not going to be resurrecting anyone (Hex 2 if you want to nuke him later). I guessing that 2 is actually the Heart as you are Trapped where I was and tru1cy rescued me. I can get back there to pull you out tomorrow. Maybe have Lassr trigger the Swan around 17 Present to remove the Barriers?

[Remus West]

Oh, Theohall walked through a barrier the first night so he is Sayid which is why I shot him for Team Widmore.

Nice shot with the Tempest, Newcastle.

[Newcastle]

well we just need Lassr to put the last vote on Bubbles. I think i might gas semaj tonight, i am in range of that.

And nice shot on Theo there Remus, I was not really expecting that.

[Remus West]

While we are at it, would one of you Losties explain to me why you refused to lynch LordMortis on the first day? Particularly if you were able to communicate in code I would have thought you'd figure locating the MiB would have been more important and if you were communicating you would have known he was not Lostie.

[Newcastle]

While we are at it, would one of you Losties explain to me why you refused to lynch LordMortis on the first day? Particularly if you were able to communicate in code I would have thought you'd figure locating the MiB would have been more important and if you were communicating you would have known he was not Lostie.

Uhm, we needed him pure and simple. I cant say everyone else's argument, but I think the feeling was lets keep this up, and when it's time then we can spring on LM and Lassr. We knew those two and i think one of the communiques id's lassr as Ben. The more improtant thing was to whittle you guys down. So once we knew our team, and what not, we knew those two also would roll with us on any vote. As long as they didn't realize we knew, we had them in our crosshairs. I think pretty much the plan was to keep at Team widmore, then turn on LM & lassr.

[Grundbegriff]

I think we're in postmortem territory.

Shall we declare this a Team Evil victory and move on to a discussion of

(a) how things unfolded, and
(b) how to fine-tune the rules?

[Newcastle]

I think we're in postmortem territory.

Shall we declare this a Team Evil victory and move on to a discussion of

(a) how things unfolded, and
(b) how to fine-tune the rules?

cant i be petty and simply grind this game to the nitty bitty end?

just kidding, am willing to continue or call it a victory for team evil.

[Grundbegriff]

 Concede 
 

 Fight on to the bitter end 
 


These are the options.

I counsel the former. It would be more enjoyable to play again under revised rules.

I have some changes in mind, natch. But I'd like to hear your ideas first. And before we share ideas, I'd like general agreement that it's time to send everyone off to the great Hereafter and dissect this thing.

[Newcastle]

personally i think this game is in the hands of team evil. It's just a matter of time before they lock everything up and we have it won. It's the mopping up stages, however if folks want to continue playing, am game for it.

 concede 
 

[Unagi]

Yeah, game over.

fun while it lasted and all that (or was the fun only an illusion, I'm still on the fence).

Damn good game idea, but I'm not sure how well it can be executed - it seems 'off balance', but not that one side is more powerful than another - something just seems 'statically unstable', like the game could go dramatically in any direction early on.

Losties knew everything (for the most part) regarding player affiliation on Day 1 (after the scans were all shared) - but I don't think that was ever going to be enough to pull off our winning conditions. I honestly felt it could take a Very long time to actually get any one team able to execute their winning conditions.

Didn't help to have such lack-luster participation. (I, myself, wished I could have givent his rule-set a TON more time)

and yes, I have corpses - I have a ton of freaking corpses (Brendan and redruns).... but, NO, I can't rez anyone - Semaj likely can't either... we must be there alone to learn the craft. However - it would take a long time to get them rezed, and frankly - it would be in such slow motion - I did NOT look forward at all to the remainder of the game trying to get these guys rezed. pipe dream, if ya ask me.


And for the last time - I do NOT feel like testing LordMortis, that's a no win move.

 tips king over 
 



by the way... I liked my "Remus and Bubbles sitting in a tree..." I though it was funny that I needed to convince Widmore to lynch converted Remus... - but then, I was banking on Newcastle perhaps not being the other converted - Nothing I could do if it was Newcastle, I prayed it was actually Chaosraven or Scoop.

[Unagi]

personally i think this game is in the hands of team evil. It's just a matter of time before they lock everything up and we have it won. It's the mopping up stages, however if folks want to continue playing, am game for it.

 concede 
 

I feel this game was always destine to end in 'mopping up phase' - the winning conditions were too complicated to get done with a board filled with enemy players playing (IMO).

I seriously wonder if this game needs something more akin to 'no deaths' (or really just give everyone 1 shot they can use - period). and then make it a board game. Huge potential here - I just wonder if the WW genes are holding back the evolution of it all.

[Unagi]

BTW, that "redrun, stessier, theohall" hit was the winning move. Damn, that morning was rough. Newcastle, were you already converted at that point?

What redrun and stessier were doing running back to that damn FLAME each night is beyond me. Talk about playing with Fire. ( very much enjoyed their posts though... redrun - your code idea was inspired and it gave us the only hope we ever had.)

[Newcastle]

Remus and Bubbles, sitting in a tree... A-C-C-U-S-I-N-G
First comes Widmore,
then comes conversion,
then comes Lord Mortis without a word of reason.

props unagi, that was pretty damn funny!

/claps heartily

I actually really enjoyed the game. And it has a huge potential. I think it was destined to be a long game, but the fact we had 5 folks go missing in mid step really hurt the flow of the game. I think that was teh first hurdle...after that it was running up hill to get momentum back. Not saying it wasn't fun, because it was. Not sure how I would tweak it right now.

[Unagi]

While we are at it, would one of you Losties explain to me why you refused to lynch LordMortis on the first day? Particularly if you were able to communicate in code I would have thought you'd figure locating the MiB would have been more important and if you were communicating you would have known he was not Lostie.

Uhm, we needed him pure and simple. I cant say everyone else's argument, but I think the feeling was lets keep this up, and when it's time then we can spring on LM and Lassr. We knew those two and i think one of the communiques id's lassr as Ben. The more improtant thing was to whittle you guys down. So once we knew our team, and what not, we knew those two also would roll with us on any vote. As long as they didn't realize we knew, we had them in our crosshairs. I think pretty much the plan was to keep at Team widmore, then turn on LM & lassr.

After the J.D. / Kenetikkid purge - I though it was very clear that Lassr was Ben and Lord Mortis was MiB - I didn't need to waste a lynch that could have been used against all the other Widmore players we wanted to get killed too - there was always a chance that killing a Widmore was indeed killing an Evil player after the first nights conversion.... but - yes - I saw the need to kill an Evil player today - but we really sorta needed it to be the Converted Player (and get lucky that they didn't figure out that they were all a team) ((unless we were already lucky and the widmore team's converted player was already lynched).

[Newcastle]

BTW, that "redrun, stessier, theohall" hit was the winning move. Damn, that morning was rough. Newcastle, were you already converted at that point?

What redrun and stessier were doing running back to that damn FLAME each night is beyond me. Talk about playing with Fire. ( very much enjoyed their posts though... redrun - your code idea was inspired and it gave us the only hope we ever had.)

Basically, on night 3 i think...i was planning a split pair of moves, forget what. Cant recall, but i had sent the moves in, got a PM back from Grund saying that I was converted. I had to think quick, but i changed my moves so that I moved in the past...to the tempest, switch it to the death mix, then in present pulled the trigger on the flame.

I was converted at teh start of the night. Right after we got CR down i think. Anyway, I was converted the night of the gas attack, just early on in the chain of events.

[Unagi]

Remus and Bubbles, sitting in a tree... A-C-C-U-S-I-N-G
First comes Widmore,
then comes conversion,
then comes Lord Mortis without a word of reason.

props unagi, that was pretty damn funny!

/claps heartily

I actually really enjoyed the game. And it has a huge potential. I think it was destined to be a long game, but the fact we had 5 folks go missing in mid step really hurt the flow of the game. I think that was teh first hurdle...after that it was running up hill to get momentum back. Not saying it wasn't fun, because it was. Not sure how I would tweak it right now.

Well hot damn it was fun For You. You were the converted guy that held all the Secrets of the Losties, etc ... Rock Star.

[Newcastle]

Well hot damn it was fun For You. You were the converted guy that held all the Secrets of the Losties, etc ... Rock Star.

Yeah tell me about it. From my perspective it was a pretty fun ride, though truth be told I wish I hadn't been converted. I was digging it communicating in code and trying to figure out how team was going to win...took me a bit to convert my mind set.

Once I was converted and 3 losties were taken out that night, I felt like Team evil would be able to survive. My problem was knowing who LM had converted. I suspected Remus, but wasnt sure. And LM was also putting all the decission on who to kill on me. So...kind of had to figure out what he was doing or who he wanted to take out...

But yeah, knowing hte secrets of the Lost Isle, was pretty neat. Then being able to use it was even better.

You hurley by the way unagi?

[Unagi]

You hurley by the way unagi?

Yep, and not a candidate either.

I used to think I was jinxed, but I was actually just awash in the wake of forces larger than myself.

[Unagi]

Heart = 19?

[Remus West]

Heart = 19?

Can't be. 19 was the Tube dump. The Heart had to be either 7 or 2.


I'm not sure if I enjoyed this or not. Once I was converted I wasn't worried about the Losties winning because I couldn't see them getting enough coordination going to undo the Widmore and Evil. Knowing now that you had a system going I can see the long shot potential there but by only targetting Widmore you simply gave Evil more time which was the one thing you couldn't afford to give them. Widmore was only going to win by getting lucky getting the Fuel to the plane and having the MiB caught.

BTW, Grund, would a Well have fulfilled that piece of the Widmore victory need?

As for tweaks, the Heart should to be easier to open for the Losties, imo.

[Grundbegriff]

BTW, that "redrun, stessier, theohall" hit was the winning move. Damn, that morning was rough. Newcastle, were you already converted at that point?

What redrun and stessier were doing running back to that damn FLAME each night is beyond me. Talk about playing with Fire. ( very much enjoyed their posts though... redrun - your code idea was inspired and it gave us the only hope we ever had.)

That was a hilarious cycle.

stessier and redrun started in the FLAME.

redrun tried to leave but bumped into a barrier, was forced to stay, and was gassed to death (by Jack! Who had just learned that he was a Candidate!).

stessier, however, departed. He headed for another hex, which turned out to be a good Well, which he took to the ORCHID. Being a social sort and somewhat obsessed with codes, he decided that he needed more o' that FLAME, so he teleported back to the FLAME and thus succumbed to the noxious fumes as he watched redrun fade away.

Other weird stuff that happened: on the first night, when we still had a Claire, Claire successfully scanned redrun as Kate and they were in the same hex... but Claire declined to axe redrun.

tru1cy triggered the Smoke Monster, but it drew an empty hex. Likewise, LordMortis spent his first night on a random attack and drew an empty hex.

Just by chance, redrun discovered the FLAME right off the bat and unleashed a ridiculously thorough code on his fellow Losties. As a result, they had complete non-Lostie awareness the whole time that all the non-Losties were trying to emulate Losties. It was a hoot to watch all the utterly futile dissembling.

[Grundbegriff]

Once I was converted I wasn't worried about the Losties winning because I couldn't see them getting enough coordination going to undo the Widmore and Evil. Knowing now that you had a system going I can see the long shot potential there but by only targetting Widmore you simply gave Evil more time which was the one thing you couldn't afford to give them.

I'm not sure this is a game where it pays to stay covert for so long. Coordination is too valuable. But the numbers and balance have to be corrected, too.

BTW, Grund, would a Well have fulfilled that piece of the Widmore victory need?

Yes, provided that nobody could rescue him. For example, MiB in a well surrounded by walls would do it, if the SWAN were also inaccessible. But then, that raises the issue of barriers.

As for tweaks, the Heart should to be easier to open for the Losties, imo.

Agreed.

In fact, here are some opinions I now hold that I didn't hold before playtesting:

1. It's too hard to resurrect teammates. I think the Temple is a good idea, but the need for training is a bad idea. Jack's perq should be that he can raise people without the Temple.

2. Man in Black shouldn't have two conversions plus Ben. That was too powerful.

3. At no point should a vote to execute succeed when only one team is represented on the vote. This would either (a) force cooperation/deception to achieve lynching, or (b) make it so that a dominant team cannot walk all over the competitors as soon as the balance tips. As a result of (a) or (b), there would actually be an endgame (as I had envisioned) where players would have to race around trying to fulfill the victory conditions and to thwart each other more or less openly.

4. I think the movement allotment was too stingy. It would be better to allow two hexes of motion in the Past and three in the Present. More mobility would make it easier to "use the Island".

5. I would limit the FLAME broadcast (which was way too powerful) to one other teammate rather than all other teammates.

6. I would raise the cap on barriers from 9 to 12 so that it would be possible to encircle both a well and the SWAN. People bumped barriers occasionally in this game, but mostly they were irrelevant. In trying to avoid having too many, we ended up with too few.

7. I think the FUEL/Dynamite/C-4 thing is a bit clunky-- especially the part about having to set things down in the past or having to move dynamite slowly. It would be better to maintain one item slot and one body slot per player per time, but to give each kind of inventory item a different purpose. So Fuel would still be for the plane, and C-4 would still be for damaging the plane, but only the dynamite could be used as a trap, and could be carried or used by anyone.

[Grundbegriff]

The Widmore Forum

[Lassr]

Well, I missed a lot. Yea! Team Evil.

Unagi, you kept calling me Ben and I thought for sure you were on my team.

I thought I pretty much gave it away when I made the intentional slip on naming where the statue was. But I had to get the word out somehow that I was waiting on MiB so we could take out Jacob.

[Grundbegriff]

A: What did you like?
B: What did you dislike?
C: What would you change, and how?
D: Would you play again if it were tweaked?

[Unagi]

Just by chance, redrun discovered the FLAME right off the bat and unleashed a ridiculously thorough code on his fellow Losties. As a result, they had complete non-Lostie awareness the whole time that all the non-Losties were trying to emulate Losties. It was a hoot to watch all the utterly futile dissembling.

Seriously good code.

And it was almost weird to be 'spoiled' so early in a game that you are still playing - and to also not want to reveal that you know that they are all lying. (glares at Theohall )

Lassr flagged himself evil when he charged scoop as "Widmore".
Remus cleared the air on LordMortis and himself, and so on - it was nice. But - also didn't result in any real ultimate leverage of the game. (funny now to read how it all went down though...)

[Unagi]

Unagi, you kept calling me Ben and I thought for sure you were on my team.

I was actually hoping you would think that. I thought my best survival approach was to come off looking a little like I could be on team evil - since I knew my team knew I was a lostie.

[Lassr]

Unagi, you kept calling me Ben and I thought for sure you were on my team.

I was actually hoping you would think that. I thought my best survival approach was to come off looking a little like I could be on team evil - since I knew my team knew I was a lostie.

I scanned Remus and he turned up team evil. So I figured he was converted and LM was MiB. I was trying to find #4 and thought it was you until today when you started attacking me.

Bubbles was Widmore! I couldn't find him and figure he was amongst the early casualties.

[Lassr]

I had Bubbles as the shooter of theohall and thought he couldn't be Charles Widmore. At the time I didn't realize Remus could keep his powers and he could of been the shooter. Doh! Thus I didn't scan Bubbles.

of course, I'm glad now, as I was on the winning team.

[Remus West]

Given that the Losties knew each other day 1 why pick on Scoop and Chaosraven if you wanted to target Widmore? You would have been better served to try and figure which of us was the shooter for Widmore and kill that player (as it turns out, much much better as it was me and I ended up shooting a Lostie and being converted to Team Evil).


BTW, did Claire give any reason for not offing Kate right away? I would have thought that a no brainer kill sort of like my shooting Sayid - find the identity of that player and remove them.

[Grundbegriff]

I had Bubbles as the shooter of theohall and thought he couldn't be Charles Widmore. At the time I didn't realize Remus could keep his powers and he could of been the shooter. Doh! Thus I didn't scan Bubbles.

of course, I'm glad now, as I was on the winning team.

Yeah. That's sort of ironic, isn't it.