[WW] The Rule of Thirds (my new idea) (discussion)

[Unagi]

So, I wanted to get this game exposed to all of you and see what you all made of it.
Not trying to jump in line - but I'd be interested in any input and get a feel for what kind of interest there is in it, etc....

This isn't a sign-up thread, but I'd be willing to run it as soon as 'the group' wanted to try it out.

I'd really love to hear if you all think it would work, or if it's fundamentally flawed....

[Unagi]

The Rule of Thirds

Since times long forgotten, the land of Trekongedommer has always been a land of three kingdoms.
For hundreds of generations, each kingdom was kept in check by the other two.

The time of equilibrium has finally come to an end.

A decisive contest has been devised by the leaders of each kingdom. The struggle that has kept these lands in a constant state of war will end, and it will end here.

The Contest:

• Each Kingdom will be represented by their King and 3 high ranking Champions.
• Kings will not know the identity of their Champions.
• Champions will know the identity of their King.
• Each Contestant will be given 2 Macht Stones - to be used on a night and in the manner of their choosing.
• Death will reveal the rank of the fallen

By Day - Majority Vote to Lynch a single Contestant.
By Night - Individual Contestants "Use a Macht Stone" or "Hold Tight"

Winning Conditions:

• Day breaks and The Keys to both other Kingdoms are attuned to a fallen contestant. (unheld)

Special Note: If day breaks and all The Keys are unheld; the highest ranked, living contestant, from each kingdom will automatically be given The Keys

The Contestants:

The Himmel House
King Himmel: You hold The Keys to the Himmel House.
Prince Himmel: You are the son of King Himmel, first in line.
Baron Himmel: Next in line after the Prince.
Herr Himmel: Last in line.


The Erde Empire
King Erde: You hold The Keys to the Erde Empire.
Prince Erde: You are the son of King Erde, first in line.
Baron Erde: Next in line after the Prince.
Herr Erde: Last in line.

The Meer Majesty
King Meer: You hold The Keys to the Meer Majesty.
Prince Meer: You are the son of King Meer, first in line.
Baron Meer: Next in line after the Prince.
Herr Meer: Last in line.


Keystones:

The Keys

While The Keys to a Kingdom do indeed unlock untold numbers of chests, dungeons, and doors all over Trekongedommer; they are actually much, much more than that.

The Keys to a Kingdom are magically imbued with an epic charm spell that has kept the people of that kingdom loyal to their king for generations.

The focus of resources and intentions brought on by these loyalties is a power so great, that the focus of rival resources and intentions is critical to any rival Kingdom's survival.

The worst thing that could happen to any Kingdom is for the charm on The Keys to be attuned to a fallen leader (unheld). The peoples of this leaderless Kingdom would be crippled by dispair and any galvanized Kingdom would easily dominate it.

• It is the goal of each Kingdom to have that condition set upon the other two Kingodoms by the end of this contest.

At the start of the contest each Kingdom's Keys are attuned to the King of that Kingdom.

Should that Contestant fall, The Keys are considered unheld, and the Kingdom's people are without leadership. It is up to the remaining Contestants of that Kingdom here to either Re-attune their Kingdom's Keys to themselves or Resurrect the fallen King post haste!

The Keys can indeed be Re-attuned by anyone. If the Champions of a given Kingdom find themselve unable or just unwilling, it is possible that some foreign Champion seizes the opportunity and attunes The Keys himself. This 'power grab' will indeed breathe life into what was perhaps a doomed Kingdom.

• It is through Re-attunement, and Re-attunement alone, where a Contestant's Winning Conditions will shift to that of the Kingdom's to which he now holds The Keys.
• A Contestant who's Winning Conditions were changed in this manner, that then loses The Keys does not revert back to his original Winning Conditions.
• Only through Re-attunement will anyone's Winning Conditions ever shift.

Macht Stones

Macht Stones are a relatively recent breakthrough in the mystic arts and their possession is absolutely forbidden. Each stone is worth a small fortune and takes decades to craft and enchant with its powers...

And the powers of the Macht Stone are indeed great and simple to wield.

At the dead of night, a Contestant can crush their stone and make a single request.

• Kill Contestant by name.
  • The attack is anonymous.
  • The killed Contestant could later be resurrected (even that night).
• Scan Contestant by name.
  Scans reveal:
  • title {rank & original Kingdom} (ex: "King Erde")
  • do they hold any Keys
• Ping Contestant by name.
  The Ping is:
  • One anonymous Message to the Target (via the Moderator)
  • One Reply back to the Contestant (also, via the Moderator)
• Re-attune Keys by name. (See The Keys section for more details on Re-attunement)
  • A Re-attune request is only effective on a dead Contestant holding The Keys to a kingdom.
  • Ineffective Re-attunement requests are completely legal.
  • If more than one Contestant attempts to Re-attune the same Keys, there is an undisclosed attunement contest to determine the new leader.
    Attunement is awarded in the following manner:
    • native Contestants to that Key's kingdom have first run at the contest, attunement is awarded by rank.
    • foreign Contestants, by rank. (timestamps would be used to break a tie at this teir)
  • The "retrieval" of The Keys from the dead Contestant is all part of a successful re-attunement, as described above.
• Resurrect Player by name
  • The resurrection is anonymous.

The Macht Stones requests are all addressed/resolved in the above order.

Contestants are always kept aware of who their leader is, and when it changes.
When The Keys to a Kingdom are Re-attuned. Nothing at all changes for the Contestants that have that Kingdom's Winning Conditions. The Goal is always to leave the other two Kingdoms' Keys unheld

In the end, it will be a question of which Kingdom won, and which Kingdom were you a part of.

[Unagi]

Macht Stone FAQ:

Q: Can a player use both of their Macht Stones in one night
A: Yes.

Q: Can the Reattune Keys request be made against a living player?
A: The Reattune Keys request is a complicated one. Technically you do 're attune' the key's charm spell. That's what the Macht Stone does for you. Logistically, you still need immediate access to the keys. Being reattuned, the next living player that touches the keys, will be the current living King. You will have wasted your Macht Stone. (unless, of course, the King is also killed on that very same night)

Q: What if I try to Kill Henry on a night where someone else says to Resurrect Henry?
A: Resurrection is the last magic ever invoked. Henry will be alive at daybreak.

Q: What if I try to Resurrect Henry and my buddy does too, are both our Macht Stone consumed?
A: Yes.

Q: Can a contestant from another kingdom "Reattune Keys"
A: Yes.

Q: If on one night, Macht Stones were used to 1)Kill Henry(king), 2)Reattune Keys from Henry, and 3)Resurrect Henry - what happens
A: Henry, a king, was Killed. Someone then Reattuned the Keys, and finally Henry was Resurrected. Everyone from Henry's kingdom are privately told the name of who the keys are attuned to. (The new "leader" of Henry's kingdom)

Q: If more than one contestant tries to Reattune Keys, how are the keys attuned.
A: Priority goes first to the members of the key's kingdom and then by rank. (timestamp would be the tiebreaker if ever required)

Q: Can a contestant try and Reattune Keys from another contestant.
A: A contestant may only be attuned to one set of keys at a time. If a current 'leader' Reattunes Keys he suspects (correctly) are on some corpse, he will dispell his current attunement and leave those unattuned keys on the corpse he found his new Keys on. (I think this will be highly unlikely)

Q: Can the attuned keys be taken from a living contestant?
A: Nope, just a corpse.

Q: What if I try and Kill Henry on a night where Henry tries to kill me (or George)
A: As long as no one was resurrected, the day would break with both Henry dead and you dead (or George).

Q: Does Henry know who Resurrected him?
A: No

Q: If an Herr manages to Reattune Keys, will he Scan or Die as "King"?
A: Contestants will always Scan and/or Die revealing their original and permanent 'rank'. (i.e. The "Herr" that retrieves The Keys is never actually ranked "King")

Q: If a King is killed, stripped of his keys, and then later resurrected - what will a future Scan or Death reveal.
A: He will always show up as "King".

[Qantaga]

This isn't a sign-up thread

(at it not being a sign-up thread)

I don't have the experience in these type games to know if there are any fundamental flaws, but I do know that it sounds mighty cool.

I'd sure be up for playing.

[Chaosraven]

You should PM grundbegriff, stessier, and remus west with this.

[Remus West]

You should PM grundbegriff, stessier, and remus west with this.

[Chaosraven]

You should PM grundbegriff, stessier, and remus west with this.

you are (in reverse order) The Guy I Have Never Beaten In Chess Who Finds All Broken Rules, The Guy With Nearly As Much OCD As Chaosraven, and Grund.

[Chaosraven]

It was a compliment to yer brains.

[Lagom Lite]

Reading...

[Lagom Lite]

Some quick thoughts...

* First; words like "Trekongedommer", "Macht Stones" is precious. It's got Hnefatavl and Niebelungen written all over it, superb. I love it.

* Suggestion about titles (just flavor, but still): How about ranking Baron as lowest and having a Jarl or Duke or Count as second? Alternatively, have "Friherre" or "Freiherr" as lowest (signifying some degree of knighthood)... just some random thoughts.

* Crushing a Macht Stone to simply send one message seems a bit low? Perhaps it should open up for a response and counter-response as well? (The person targeted gets to send a reply, and after that you get to send one more reply - allowing for some communication).

* Winning Condition formulation: What if all keys are held by one House? Isn't that a win for that House as well as if the competing keys are unheld?

I like this system and I don't see holes in it at first glance.

[Unagi]

Thanks for your input Lagom!

* Suggestion about titles (just flavor, but still): How about ranking Baron as lowest and having a Jarl or Duke or Count as second? Alternatively, have "Friherre" or "Freiherr" as lowest (signifying some degree of knighthood)... just some random thoughts.

Yeah, I just tossed out those ranks really... Actually I had Freiherr on there at one point. So, are you saying : King / Prince / Jarl / Freiherr ?

* Crushing a Macht Stone to simply send one message seems a bit low? Perhaps it should open up for a response and counter-response as well? (The person targeted gets to send a reply, and after that you get to send one more reply - allowing for some communication).

Yeah, that one had gone a few ways. I started with it being a 'Team Communication' (like the Flame Station in Lost) - but that actually became Way too powerful in that it would basically defeat the "who's on my team" element. So, I took out the 'Full Team' and just downgraded it to "Send a Message" - I like what you propose though. It gives it a bit more worth... I wonder though - do you think that 2nd communication from the stone-breaker is a little too much coordination? Leave it to maybe just a Communication that can be replied to...? (this also lets me move the Night forward, and I can say that the "reply" is allowed to come any time before the end of voting on the Next day)...

* Winning Condition formulation: What if all keys are held by one House? Isn't that a win for that House as well as if the competing keys are unheld?

So, it seems like you are expanding on this scenario:
What if King Erde dies and Herr Meer attunes the keys? Here is how I saw that going down:
let's say that Lagom = Herr Meer
This is not the Meer kingdom getting the Erde keys. This is Herr Meer taking a kingdom for his own - All of the Meer Erde team is given a PM ("Lagom is now the leader of the Erde") (Lagom would no longer get PM's about the changes to the Meer leadership - and he will not win if the Meer kingdom wins) Does that make sense? See, what's cool here is that Lagom knows who the leader of the Erde Meer is...

I like this system and I don't see holes in it at first glance.

I'm sure you are missing something.

[Lagom Lite]

Thanks for your input Lagom!

My pleasure.

* Suggestion about titles (just flavor, but still): How about ranking Baron as lowest and having a Jarl or Duke or Count as second? Alternatively, have "Friherre" or "Freiherr" as lowest (signifying some degree of knighthood)... just some random thoughts.

Yeah, I just tossed out those ranks really... Actually I had Freiherr on there at one point. So, are you saying : King / Prince / Jarl / Freiherr ?

I'm taking this directly out of memory, mind, but here's how I remember Norse titles: In Sweden, there was little to no centralized power so each village was to its own, nominally ruled by the most powerful local farmer basically ("Gode"). Friherre was one step under a Gode, charged with his protection usually, like a "Knight" or Cavalier. If there rose a paticularly powerful Gode with some success in "uniting" several villages (through unfriendly means, mostly), he might style himself "King" (this happened early on in Denmark, and somewhat later in Sweden) and his vassal or regional ruler would be "Jarl" (hence the British title "Earl" - Danes invaded England).

So pure Norse titles would be something like King / Jarl / Gode / Friherre, I think, but your creation seem like a mix of Norse and Germanic. So just go for that which "feels" best to you!

* Crushing a Macht Stone to simply send one message seems a bit low? Perhaps it should open up for a response and counter-response as well? (The person targeted gets to send a reply, and after that you get to send one more reply - allowing for some communication).

Yeah, that one had gone a few ways. I started with it being a 'Team Communication' (like the Flame Station in Lost) - but that actually became Way too powerful in that it would basically defeat the "who's on my team" element. So, I took out the 'Full Team' and just downgraded it to "Send a Message" - I like what you propose though. It gives it a bit more worth... I wonder though - do you think that 2nd communication from the stone-breaker is a little too much coordination? Leave it to maybe just a Communication that can be replied to...? (this also lets me move the Night forward, and I can say that the "reply" is allowed to come any time before the end of voting on the Next day)...

Sure, so it would be a Send Message with the respondent able to send a single reply.

* Winning Condition formulation: What if all keys are held by one House? Isn't that a win for that House as well as if the competing keys are unheld?

So, it seems like you are expanding on this scenario:
What if King Erde dies and Herr Meer attunes the keys? Here is how I saw that going down:
let's say that Lagom = Herr Meer
This is not the Meer kingdom getting the Erde keys. This is Herr Meer taking a kingdom for his own - All of the Meer team is given a PM ("Lagom is now the leader of the Erde") (Lagom would no longer get PM's about the changes to the Meer leadership - and he will not win if the Meer kingdom wins) Does that make sense? See, what's cool here is that Lagom knows who the leader of the Erde is...

So, as Herr Erde my victory condition would change as I become leader of a faction other than my old one? That may have many repercussions potentially. Also, are the Meer team really notified if I abandon them? Isn't it Erde that gets the PM that I'm their new leader?

[msteelers]

Cool idea. A few questions:

1) I'm confused on how someone picks up a key. It seems you need to have the key in your possession to reattune it to yourself, but I don't see how to pick it up.
2) Can you use a macht stone to resurrect yourself?
3) Do you learn someones identity when they are lynched?
4) I agree with Lagom that it seems like it should be Team Erde that gets the notification, not Team Meer. Wouldn't that be like sending up a flashing "kill me now" sign?

[Unagi]

1) I'm confused on how someone picks up a key. It seems you need to have the key in your possession to reattune it to yourself, but I don't see how to pick it up.

Yeah, it seems confusing - but it's actually pretty simple (I think)
Concept: The king (George) is holding the keys tight in his pocket - and they are attuned to him.
George needs to be dead in order for this order to work: "Reattune Keys that are on George"
If George is dead, the "Reattune" takes place.
(There is no actual "Pick up the Keys" - it is implied that you had a little private time with the corpse to collect the keys from his pocket)

2) Can you use a macht stone to resurrect yourself?

No sir, it's up to your team.... if they know who you are...

3) Do you learn someones identity when they are lynched?

You learn their Rank. So you will know anyone that shares your rank isn't on your team - and additionally, since you know who your Original King is - you will also know an Enemy King when he dies too.

4) I agree with Lagom that it seems like it should be Team Erde that gets the notification, not Team Meer. Wouldn't that be like sending up a flashing "kill me now" sign?

TOTALLY - I typed the wrong House name... Lagom and you are Correct.
It all goes back to the rule: "Participants will always be told who their Leader is"

[msteelers]

Thanks Unagi. This sounds like a lot of fun. Were this a sign up thread, this would be where I type IN.

[Unagi]

So, as Herr Erde my victory condition would change as I become leader of a faction other than my old one? That may have many repercussions potentially. Also, are the Meer team really notified if I abandon them? Isn't it Erde that gets the PM that I'm their new leader?

This is correct.
Basically there are two ways I could go with it and I felt this was the much better option.

So, recall - we start with Lagom being Herr Meer.

At question is: What happens when a contestant from another kingdom tries,* uncontested, to attune the keys from an fallen enemy King?

So, if we say that Herr Meer simply collects the Erde keys (thwarting the Erde kingdom) but nothing else changes:
The Erde Kingdom will likely have some remaining contestants. I felt that if their key was absorbed by another kingdom, these players would be unmotivated to play and participate.
Alternately, the entire remaining Erde players cannot simply become "Meer" players, as I feel this would create a power shift that would kill the game.


However, if we instead say that the Herr Meer TAKES OVER the Erde Kingdom, this breathes life back into (what must have been) a diminished Erde kingdom.
(by the way, I still wouldn't call this player "Herr Erde" in a Macht Stone scan, he would be called "Herr Meer" still, I think that's best... but see below for a proposed adjustment to address this finer point...)


(* uncontested: Keep in mind that there is a hierarchy to the reattunement of keys - if any native contestant from the kingdom tries to attune the keys - their attunement will take priority over someone from a foreign kingdom. I actually don't think the 'stealing of a kingdom' is very likely to happen, but very well could.)


I look at it like this:
The charm spell on any given Key invokes an epic amount of magic. A mortal simply cannot BE attuned to more than one Charm spell of this magnitude. It is because of this that the loyalty of these three kingdoms have never mixed. (Someone would have stolen their neighbor's key by now, infact - someone probably has...).

The goal of this contest is to totally rid that spell from 2/3rds of Trekongedommer. That large body of leaderless people will be mopped up by the kingdom that remains galvanized.


Considering all of this, I do think I should make one adjustment. I think that the Macht Power to "scan another player" should reveal:
Rank, "Original Kingdom", and "Contents of Pockets" (i.e. "do they hold the keys to a kingdom?")

[Lagom Lite]

Ì agree with your thoughts and with your change, it's cool and adds depth that you can go steal a Kingdom if your own is failing.

[stessier]

I've only read the Rules and FAQ posts, so sorry if these have already been answered.

1. The three champions each King brings to this thing - they are the other ranks, right? It never really says that clearly anywhere.
2. Each player knows their King but none of the other subjects, right? And the King only knows they are King (a useful situation).
3. "Kill Player by name (only thwarted by a Resurrection)" - I would remove the "thwarted" part. You mention that the Macht Stones work in the order listed. So someone can be killed and then resurrected on the same night. That is important because a Key Holder could die, have his keys reattuned, and be resurrected in the same night thereby going to sleep a Key Holder and waking up a normal peasant, right? In this instance, the Kill order is not thwarted directly (the player still dies), but rather the aim of a dead person is (the person ends up alive after a brief glimpse of...not sure of the setting...Valhalla?).
4. With 2 Macht Stones, a player could, theoretically, confirm the rest of his team. If an entire team knew who they were without expending any of the stones, they could wipe out enough of the competition to control the voting completely. Can't see a way they could figure that out without using the Stones though.
5. Who wins? Is it just the Key Holder or the entire Kingdom? (I like the idea of the entire Kingdom winning - fosters cooperation and gives everyone a reason to work together).
6. You mention Keys being on a corpse. How does one come into possession of the Keys? Does attunement deliver the Keys to whomever does it?
7. Should the game also end if one house holds all the keys on living members? Add a little drama in people trying to steal other kingdoms' keys. Think of that mayhem since the remaining Champions would know who held the keys and, theoretically, try to protect the Key Holder and maybe even resurrect them - except they aren't on the same team!

Think that's about it. Originally I thought the Champions knew their King and the other Champions - which would be game breaking. But since they don't, I think this could be really cool. An interesting puzzle for sure. Nice job!

[Unagi]

The three champions each King brings to this thing - they are the other ranks, right? It never really says that clearly anywhere.

Yes, that's correct. I should clear that up, thanks.

Each player knows their King but none of the other subjects, right? And the King only knows they are King (a useful situation).

Correct.

"Kill Player by name (only thwarted by a Resurrection)" - I would remove the "thwarted" part. You mention that the Macht Stones work in the order listed. So someone can be killed and then resurrected on the same night. That is important because a Key Holder could die, have his keys reattuned, and be resurrected in the same night thereby going to sleep a Key Holder and waking up a normal peasant, right?

That's right, regarding the key transfer (I think that's even one of my examples). I guess that language (thwarted) was meant to point out that a Resurrection is a bit of a 'Protection' power, but our "king's-lost-key" example does underscore that the Death still has meaning to a key-holder, so 'thwarted' is a poor choice. I will take that out. It's the order of resolution that is relevant, and that's communicated well enough.

With 2 Macht Stones, a player could, theoretically, confirm the rest of his team. If an entire team knew who they were without expending any of the stones, they could wipe out enough of the competition to control the voting completely. Can't see a way they could figure that out without using the Stones though.

So - no question there really, right?

Who wins? Is it just the Key Holder or the entire Kingdom? (I like the idea of the entire Kingdom winning - fosters cooperation and gives everyone a reason to work together).

The entire kingdom wins, stessier. Everyone in the winning kingdom stands to win huge if they defeat the other 2 kingdoms. Hell, the Key Holder wins the least! He needs to always watch his back from that day forward....

You mention Keys being on a corpse. How does one come into possession of the Keys? Does attunement deliver the Keys to whomever does it?

Yeah, that was one of msteelers' questions too. Short answer is, "Yes" they are delivered to who wins the re-attunement. The "reattune" order comes with an implied "And Go Get Those Keys!"
I see it going down like this:
Everyone has a pocket. There are 3 Keys (Meer Key, etc) and each King starts with a Key in their pocket.
You can't pick the pocket of a living person.
You can't take an attuned key from a persons (dead or alive).
So, the "reattune" power is needed (The king could simply be resurrected (and I see value in doing it anyway) ... but that may be too late for the Keys... - remember?)
So then, what if many people use the reattune power on the same DeadGuy:

• everyone's reattune clears the Key's attunement (so, it's free to be taken now)
• The Key's native ranked players get first dibs to the King's pocket... by rank (if they used the reattune power, obviously)
• Next, by rank - any other player's attempt to go through the DeadGuy's pocket is considered (should the above not have claimed it)
• In event of a tie of the above (i.e. two foreign Herrs go for the fallen key), the time-stamp on their message will be the tie-breaker (doubt this will happen)

Should the game also end if one house holds all the keys on living members? Add a little drama in people trying to steal other kingdoms' keys. Think of that mayhem since the remaining Champions would know who held the keys and, theoretically, try to protect the Key Holder and maybe even resurrect them - except they aren't on the same team!

I think this is the same question that Lagom was asking about. In short, no - if a Key is taken - that Player is making a big play and is changing his winning conditions - he now is the leader of that other kingdom. If he was a Key Holder already, he leaves his old, now-unattuned keys behind... can't stack these Charms Spells.

[Unagi]

2) Can you use a macht stone to resurrect yourself?

No sir, it's up to your team.... if they know who you are...

Actually, I want to put a finer point on this answer.

One could predict their own demise and use a Macht Stone with the orders to Resurrect themselves on that one fateful night.

Otherwise, once a contestant is actually dead - it would be up to some other contestant to raise them.