The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

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redrun
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Fifth Hour

Post by redrun »

Unagi wrote:
redrun wrote:
-- Nope, that doesn't screw up your wine. I'll take a run at Chaos this turn.
Where did you Not See that I already said that I was going to waste MY Turn doing that.

Sheeesh.
:roll:
-- Yup, we're wasting a turn. Sorry, I did miss your announcement. :oops:
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Fifth Hour

Post by Remus West »

Unagi wrote:
redrun wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Lassr wrote:I'm mingling with Remus West.

If we find more Nobles please keep it to yourself. We have plenty of toast targets now. We don't want to keep narrowing the field until we have enough nobles in a winning position. So if someone wants to coordinate to mingle with Grund or chaos then do so, of get some wine. I'm not blocking it tonight. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to give me a chance later.
I can not remember if that screws my going after wine or not. I do not think it does get in the way so have at it. I am not the Red Death.
-- Nope, that doesn't screw up your wine. I'll take a run at Chaos this turn.
Where did you Not See that I already said that I was going to waste MY Turn doing that.

Sheeesh.
:roll:
Hey, at least he is keeping you honest. This way you are really wasting your move. :P
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Fourth Toast

Post by Qantaga »

Unagi wrote:
Qantaga wrote:
Unagi wrote:Ok, I call dibs on singlemingle Chaos tonight. :roll:

Qantag, you cover RD. ;-)

I've got to be up at 4:00 am and off to the airport. I'll be traveling most of the day, so I went ahead and turned in my order to go with this plan Unagi. I hope you can benefit somehow.
I'm sure you can see that the public coordination of such a plan only hands the plan to the enemy.... :wink:

Sadly, I can.

It's a shame that we have RD's ID card, but not much use for it.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Fifth Hour

Post by Unagi »

Yeah, when I first learned it - I scrubbed the rules a couple times to be sure there wasn't a Rule that let us tell F who RD was (much like the mechanic to join M in a win...), but there isn't.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Fifth Hour

Post by Lagom Lite »

Players pending: rhsetts2.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Fifth Hour

Post by Lagom Lite »

Mod note: Unless anyone objects strongly (by sending me a PM or otherwise), I'm going to discontinue this game shortly. The reasons have already been stated by players in this thread; mainly it's because the game has reached a stalemate and y'all are getting bored, but also that I think we've learned what we could from this ruleset. :)
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Fifth Hour

Post by redrun »

Lagom Lite wrote:Mod note: Unless anyone objects strongly (by sending me a PM or otherwise), I'm going to discontinue this game shortly. The reasons have already been stated by players in this thread; mainly it's because the game has reached a stalemate and y'all are getting bored, but also that I think we've learned what we could from this ruleset. :)
-- I concur... besides, this will give you time to get another round of LoTR ready, right? :D
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Fifth Hour

Post by rshetts2 »

my apologies, I thought I'd sent my order but it appears I didn't. I will forgo my turn and go drink quietly in a corner.
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The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Lagom Lite »

Game Over!

Thanks for playing!

Spoilers (scroll to bottom for Fifth Hour results):
Spoiler:
PLAYERS

1. Isgrimnur
2. theohall
3. Chaosraven is Fortunato
4. Grundbegriff is Montresor
5. Newcastle is the Red Death
6. msteelers
7. Qantaga
8. rshetts2
9. redrun
10. Vorret
11. Kenetickid
12. Unagi
13. Remus West
14. Lassr

Italics = Player is unmasked.
@ = Player carries a Bottle of Amontillado.
! = Player is treated to a goblet of Amontillado.
* = Player is Infected.
$ = Player is on Montresor’s good side.
& = Player is on Fortunato’s good side.
… = Winning condition unlocked

First Hour
1. Isgrimnur mingles Vorret (fails)
2. theohall mingles Isgrimnur
3. Chaosraven mingles Remus West (fails)
4. Grundbegriff mingles redrun
5. Newcastle infects Unagi
6. msteelers mingles rhsetts2
7. Qantaga mingles Kenetickid
8. rshetts2 mingles Vorret (fails)
9. redrun mingles Grundbegriff
10. Vorret@ SNEAKS
11. Kenetickid mingles Remus West (fails)
12. Unagi* mingles Newcastle
13. Remus West mingles msteelers (fails)
14. Lassr mingles msteelers (fails)


First Toast
Kenetickid

Italics = Player is unmasked.
@ = Player carries a Bottle of Amontillado.
! = Player is treated to a goblet of Amontillado.
* = Player is Infected.
$ = Player is on Montresor’s good side.
& = Player is on Fortunato’s good side.
… = Winning condition unlocked

Second Hour
1. Isgrimnur mingles redrun (fails)
2. theohall… mingles Chaosraven
3. Chaosraven mingles redrun (fails)
4. Grundbegriff! mingles theohall
5. Newcastle infects Lassr
6. msteelers minlges Vorret
7. Qantaga mingles msteelers
8. rshetts2 SNEAKS (fails)
9. redrun mingles Unagi (fails)
10. Vorret@ mingles Grundbegriff
11. Kenetickid SNEAKS (fails)
12. Unagi* mingles redrun (fails)
13. Remus West mingles Unagi (fails)
14. Lassr* mingles Isgrimnur

Second Toast
Qantaga

Italics = Player is unmasked.
@ = Player carries a Bottle of Amontillado.
! = Player is treated to a goblet of Amontillado.
* = Player is Infected.
$ = Player is on Montresor’s good side.
& = Player is on Fortunato’s good side.
… = Winning condition unlocked

Third Hour
1. Isgrimnur SNEAKS (fails)
2. theohall… SNEAKS (fails)
3. Chaosraven mingles Grundbegriff
4. Grundbegriff mingles Chaosraven (fails)
5. Newcastle infects redrun
6. msteelers mingles Unagi
7. Qantaga mingles Newcastle (fails)
8. rshetts2 mingles Chaosraven (fails)
9. redrun* mingles Newcastle (fails)
10. Vorret@ mingles Remus West
11. Kenetickid SNEAKS (fails)
12. Unagi* SNEAKS (fails)
13. Remus West! SNEAKS (fails)
14. Lassr* SNEAKS (fails)


Third Toast
Isgrimnur



Italics = Player is unmasked.
@ = Player carries a Bottle of Amontillado.
! = Player is treated to a goblet of Amontillado.
* = Player is Infected.
$ = Player is on Montresor’s good side.
& = Player is on Fortunato’s good side.
… = Winning condition unlocked

Fourth Hour
1. Isgrimnur mingles rshetts2 (fails)
2. theohall… mingles Lassr
3. Chaosraven! mingles msteelers (fails, Vorret good side, wine)
4. Grundbegriff mingles Chaosraven (fails)
5. Newcastle infects msteelers
6. msteelers*! mingles Chaosraven (fails, wine)
7. Qantaga mingles Newcastle
8. rshetts2 mingles Unagi
9. redrun* SNEAKS (fails)
10. Vorret@& mingles msteelers (fails, F good side)
11. Kenetickid SNEAKS (fails)
12. Unagi* mingles rhsetts2 (fails)
13. Remus West mingles Chaosraven (fails)
14. Lassr* mingles rhsetts2 (fails)



Fourth Toast
theohall





Italics = Player is unmasked.
@ = Player carries a Bottle of Amontillado.
! = Player is treated to a goblet of Amontillado.
* = Player is Infected.
$ = Player is on Montresor’s good side.
& = Player is on Fortunato’s good side.
… = Winning condition unlocked

Fifth Hour
1. Isgrimnur mingles rhsetts2
2. theohall… mingles Grundbegriff (fails)
3. Chaosraven* mingles Grundbegriff (fails)
4. Grundbegriff mingles Chaosraven (fails)
5. Newcastle infects Chaosraven
6. msteelers* mingles redrun
7. Qantaga mingles Newcastle
8. rshetts2 pass
9. redrun* mingles Chaosraven (fails)
10. Vorret@& mingles Grundbegriff (fails)
11. Kenetickid SNEAKS (fails)
12. Unagi* mingles Chaosraven (fails)
13. Remus West SNEAKS (fails)
14. Lassr* mingles Remus West
Last edited by Lagom Lite on Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Lagom Lite »

The two major ruleset issues from my POV, among several minor issues, were these:

* Traffic Jam
Without a mechanism to exclude players (standard lynches, nightly kills), the game quickly turns into a stalemate as players keep blocking each other. This was simply an oversight on my part.

* No Common Goal
If players refuse to organize ("turn the game into a machine", as it were ;) ) there is nothing to do except turn in your Order and, during Toasts, make sure your own cause is helped. If there were a common goal of some kind that Nobles could agree on, there would be more motivation to participate.

Minor issues:
* Montresor needs a reason to not self-out?
* Red Death is kind of boring to play (I suspected as much). Make him into an environmental effect rather than an active player? Or make a random Noble a "carrier" (this noble won't know he is the carrier, but will spread disease to his mingle target - then create a rule for standard lynching - "throwing someone out on the street" so to speak - instead of toasting).

Discussion points:
* What worked/was interesting/was fun?
* What didn't work/wasn't interesting/wasn't fun?
* Which aspect(s) needs to be changed to make the game more fun?

Spoiler forum at http://ooww.freeforums.org/ .
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Vorret »

aww
I was doing so good :)

Darn NewNastle was the RD, we almost unmasked him at the start!
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Vorret »

Hope there's no hard feelings for being the lucky one to get the wine on round 1 :)
Never thought I'd get it... then I get Montresor on round 2.

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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by msteelers »

I was enjoying myself until everyone self outed, which created the stalemate. I even had my orders in to mingle with chaosraven, but once everyone knew who M and F were my chances of winning plummeted.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by theohall »

msteelers wrote:I was enjoying myself until everyone self outed, which created the stalemate. I even had my orders in to mingle with chaosraven, but once everyone knew who M and F were my chances of winning plummeted.
Once they self-outed, the only chance of winning was for the RD. Chaosraven would mingle with Montresor every turn to prevent anyone from getting on his good side. Montresor would keep mingling with Chaosraven to prevent anyone from getting on his good side. Stalemate. If there were a mechanic preventing one from mingling with the same person on consecutive turns, it might prevent this.

Wish I had realized Grund was M (was only joking in the game), before CR self-outed. I could have successfully mingled with Grundbegriff in the 4th hour and actually had a shot at joining in a Montressor victory.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by redrun »

msteelers wrote:I was enjoying myself until everyone self outed, which created the stalemate. I even had my orders in to mingle with chaosraven, but once everyone knew who M and F were my chances of winning plummeted.
-- I mingled with Grund on day one, which let me know he was M. For quite a while I avoided talking about my first move to avoid drawing attention to Grund. I was pretty good about figuring out who the specials were, however I had them all mixed up (I really thought Chaos was the Red Death).

-- Ways to improve it. Hmmm... off the cuff, I think removing the blocking factor (don't need to be along to mingle), figuring out some way of making the nobles work for/against each other?, putting in a price for 'stealing' wine (perhaps a max of two per night can get wine, but they lose a turn afterwards and/or don't get some information that everyone else gets (since they were out of the room), and/or the Red Death is informed who got wine)? Dunno, just thinking out loud here. Give the Red Death some way to hide amoung the nobles, otherwise the first player that finds him will always go public if we're about to toast Mr. RD.

-- Thanks Mr. Lite for setting this game up!
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Lassr »

Lagom Lite wrote: Without a mechanism to exclude players (standard lynches, nightly kills), the game quickly turns into a stalemate as players keep blocking each other. This was simply an oversight on my part.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by msteelers »

redrun wrote: -- I mingled with Grund on day one, which let me know he was M. For quite a while I avoided talking about my first move to avoid drawing attention to Grund.
I avoided giving away any information as well, and pushed to toast people that I had no intention of mingling with. As a result, I knew who all the nobles were but by then the game was in the stalemate and I couldn't actually do anything with that information. I figured chaos was F, and thought Grund could be M but wasn't positive (at least before the big reveals). The only one I was wrong on was the RD. I actually thought you were the Red Death. :D
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Unagi »

Not sure how well I will articulate all of this but, my take on things:

There was no "who done it" feel going on. There was nothing for anyone to discuss accept for everyone previous "mingles", however - I actually think that information was likely best kept close to the chest.

Once Grund and Chaos self outed (they could have lied, but we all unanimously decided that wasn't likely) the game was indeed over. But I really don't think things were going too well, even before that. We were all narrowing down the field of 'night targets' very quickly.. with everyone giving out their scans like M&Ms.

Seeing Kinetikkid SNEAK each of those nights, but that he had no interest in playing (or making it a relative priority in his very busy life), underscores how this rule-set was easily undermined by a single player not really playing. These games need to survive that, as it's almost always a condition that we see in our games. (and, please... Don't get upset with me Kinetikkid. My biggest frustration with you was simply your lack of communication about your troubles playing the game - from our position, you blew off the last game - never mentioned it, and then went and blew off this game too...)

To that point: giving a Deadline that was basically 2 weeks out, in a game where it seemed the only fun way to play it was more like Speed Chess, seemed to beg for trouble from any player that wasn't going to be able to play that way. Case in point: At the time, you had a Deadline set to 9/22: but you came in and said that if you hadn't heard from Kinetikkid by 9/18, you would dismiss him from the game. What's the point of the deadline being set so far in the future - if a person isn't allowed to make use of it because of technical troubles... Also, that declaration made it pretty clear that Kinetikkid was a Noble.

Something about this game made me not really care about my "night order" too much. I got lucky on my first Mingle - after that, it didn't seem likely that I would be making much ground. As the game progressed - the chances of getting something done 'at night' dropped down dramatically.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Chaosraven »

Without attrition the Log Jam simply gets worse. I was all paniced when I mingled with Grund and found Monty instead of RD... Trying to figure out a way to garner winebearer interest while searching out RD... And then Grund comes right on out! I think I typed in and deleted six responses to that before figuring out what I wanted to post. The NonConsecutive could help, except it still allows for pairs to perpetually block. The lack of players dying as the pool of targets dwindle makes it frustrating.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Remus West »

Maybe allowing the RD to simply kill someone each night would fix a lot. That would give both M and F reason to try and remain hidden (they can not win if they are dead). Would only marginally address the collision thing though since the number of players trying to get things done won't change much in percent of actors to targets. It would create a sense of urgency though as the possibility of the RD ending the game much sooner would make folks need to hurry. Probably need an adjustment to the winning conditions to allow M and F to maybe make a run for the door. If they leave and the other is dead AND they know who the RD is then they and their friends win. If they leave without meeting both conditions they lose, potentially handing the game to the RD.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by stessier »

Unagi wrote:Also, that declaration made it pretty clear that Kinetikkid was a Noble.
Except he said the same thing about Chaos - who wasn't a Noble.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Unagi »

stessier wrote:
Unagi wrote:Also, that declaration made it pretty clear that Kinetikkid was a Noble.
Except he said the same thing about Chaos - who wasn't a Noble.
Lagom hedged on the whole "Choas being removed" part, as he had his orders...
in short, I was wrong to have classed KK and Choas equally like that (in my PM to you)
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by stessier »

Unagi wrote:
stessier wrote:
Unagi wrote:Also, that declaration made it pretty clear that Kinetikkid was a Noble.
Except he said the same thing about Chaos - who wasn't a Noble.
Lagom hedged on the whole "Choas being removed" part, as he had his orders...
in short, I was wrong to have classed KK and Choas equally like that (in my PM to you)
I wasn't trying to call you out or anything. I think you were right at the time - Lagom's statement made both sound like Nobles.

I'd have to go back and check, but Lagom didn't get Chaos' orders until after he had made that statement. If so, I'm curious what his plan was if Chaos didn't come back.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Newcastle »

Being red death was Ho-hum. There really was nothing to help me achieve what i wanted to do once the rest of the people kind of had a system in place to unmask nobles with max safety......which i dont begrudge them I probably would advocate something like that too. SO I was pretty hamstrung in the fact that I knew I wasn't going to get unmasked unless I was cleared by another player, which never was going to happen.

Want to echo there was no attrition so there was going to be a constant blockage.

I really think the RD should be a "hidden" noble, and scan as such if mingled with. If people know he is the RD there is no reason for him to be revealed, if someone knows it. Maybe let him kill regardless. But if that is the case there should be a way for him to remain hidden...maybe he can continue killing until revealed, and his target is M &F. But if he is revealed then the nobles win?

The mingled should be revamped.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Qantaga »

Overall, I liked the game. I dug the setting and atmosphere. I loved the concept and I especially enjoyed Lagom's write-ups.

In addition to the blocking issues others have mentioned, I think the Nobles needed some extra incentive. Unagi and I knew RD's identity, but that really did not benefit us at all, other than to prevent RD from being unmasked. There was little incentive for us when we knew there was no way to mingle successfully with F, then M, or to get wine to take to F. Other than just the "evil" of the RD, it would have been easier for us to accomodate an RD win, rather than seek out M or F successfully.

Maybe the Nobles could have their own victory scenario, sort of an all-for-one thing. If one escapes, they all escape or somesuch.

In the end, though, big kudos to Lagom Lite for the idea, the game, and the mod duties.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Remus West »

Qantaga wrote:Overall, I liked the game. I dug the setting and atmosphere. I loved the concept and I especially enjoyed Lagom's write-ups.
While I did not like the game as is I do think there is a very interesting core there that can be made very fun with some tweaking. I did want to second that the atmosphere and setting were wonderful and the write-ups excellent.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Unagi »

I totally agree.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Grundbegriff »

Yep.

(a) RD Scans as a Noble
(b) RD Kills nightly
(c) Eliminate the "RD-kills-Fortunato"=="game-ends" problem

Fixing the problem in (c) could be as simple as
(1) If Fortunato is alive, then Montresor's victory condition is to mingle with Fortunato twice, but
(2) If Fortunato is dead, then Montresor becomes a Red Death scanner and wins by mingling with RD twice

Being a fan of Poe, I would totally be into replaying this one with tweaked rules ASAP.
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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Lassr »

other thought I had was red death infects players and the players toast to unmask but then umasked must leave the party. Incentive not to get toasted and red death just has to infect players he thinks may be around in the end game.
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

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Re: The Cask of Amontillado (WW) - Game Over!

Post by Grundbegriff »

Lassr wrote:other thought I had was red death infects players and the players toast to unmask but then umasked must leave the party. Incentive not to get toasted and red death just has to infect players he thinks may be around in the end game.
Death/departure by toast instead of death by infection would give us a mechanism to use against non-playing players.
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