Global Thermonuclear War [WW] - Game Over - Alliance Wins

[Semaj]

Which reminds me, what was the message you monitored (This works for EVERYONE)?

BTW Theo I wasn't lying, I really didnt do anything last night, I missed the deadline

[theohall]

Which reminds me, what was the message you monitored (This works for EVERYONE)?

BTW Theo I wasn't lying, I really didnt do anything last night, I missed the deadline

Duh... I would have known otherwise.

[Isgrimnur]

I got nothing on Day 2 as well. My spies have been sacked.

[Vorret]

Some very good ppoints Semaj...

I just re-read my other "intercepted" messages and yes, I DON'T see who it is sent to which means Theo IS trying to set whoever is monitoring the message up.
Didn't think of that, this is some very interesting informatin.

Makes me wonder, how BIG is that alliance, I'm trying to figure out who's in it but so far, no luck so I guess it can't *hurt* to display the message other than being nuked to oblivion !

From: Theohall

To: Governor-General Remus West.

Tuvalu graciously accepts your offer. We have requested other members of this alliance simply type in the actual day (ie Friday for today) of one of their messages. Since this is likely being monitored, this may or may not work. We shall see.

Respectfully
President Theohall
Tuvalu.

Make what you want of this.
I just reread 3 pages and I see nothing but it's early and I'm not quite awake yet.

[Remus West]

A couple things leap out to me from that "message". First off, I never got it so it did not go to me. Second off, "we have requested other members" implies he already has a partners. If that part is true then you would very much have been better off staying silent about having intercepted anything as you could have waited for someone to post the day thing in their messages to figure out who it is. Which also would have likely exonerated me.

So, Theo, how many partners do you have right now?

Understand, I still do not think Theohall is Rogue but it may very well be worth isolating his vote - request he vote for someone alone that we do not want to lynch - in order to break up his alliances.

[msteelers]

Sorry I've been MIA. My internet has been up and down all weekend... can we all agree to send a nuke towards Comcast?

I've read through the thread and I don't see anything that jumps out as suspicious outside of those who seem to be anti-alliances. Asking people to cut off that road to victory and potentially waste our few remaining days chasing after alliances instead of rogue nations just doesn't seem right.

[Vorret]

Sorry I've been MIA. My internet has been up and down all weekend... can we all agree to send a nuke towards Comcast?

I've read through the thread and I don't see anything that jumps out as suspicious outside of those who seem to be anti-alliances. Asking people to cut off that road to victory and potentially waste our few remaining days chasing after alliances instead of rogue nations just doesn't seem right.

Why would I want an alliance to win if that makes me lose ?
I don't want the rogue nation to win yet I don't want an alliance I'm not part of (lone wolf!) to win either...

Theo shouldn't be voting, period.
Technicly, this should break any form of alliance they have, unless the WHOLE alliance abstain from voting.

[Qantaga]

I don't see anything that jumps out as suspicious outside of those who seem to be anti-alliances. Asking people to cut off that road to victory and potentially waste our few remaining days chasing after alliances instead of rogue nations just doesn't seem right.

msteelers, I'm still baffled why this doesn't make sense to you. There are two bad rogue nations out there. We need to lynch them. But, that is not our only responsibility.

Here's the problem with alliances. Using Semaj's daisy-chain theory (since confirmed by Scoop), we could take out one rogue state today. However, in the process, it is now possible for a secret alliance to win today if we leave them unchecked!

So, any good nation who is not in an alliance has two goals: (A) Find the rogue states -and- (B) break any secret alliance possible.

Of course, those in a secret alliance will be lobbying hard for us to not break them up. Those nations want an easy path to victory and clamor about the gall of anyone trying to break them up.

You and Remus West keep talking about not cutting off a road to victory and you deem anyone as suspicious who doesn't want to just lie down and let a limited secret alliance win. What you really mean is that you don't want anyone to cut off a path to victory for you.

Look at this:

Understand, I still do not think Theohall is Rogue but it may very well be worth isolating his vote - request he vote for someone alone that we do not want to lynch - in order to break up his alliances.

Remus (and you presumably msteelers) doesn't want to let a secret alliance that doesn't include him win, either. Your claims that you consider it suspicious when someone speaks out against secret alliances are very self-serving.

I'm not saying that any of us shouldn't be trying to join a secret alliance for the win. That's a part of the game. But, it's also imperative for those who are not in a secret alliance to try to break them up. Otherwise, we'll never have time to find the rogue states. The secret alliance will end the game long before that can happen.

Note: Cross-posted with Vorret.

[Remus West]

Here is where I think msteelers is coming from (it is certainly where I am coming from)...we need to break up the secret alliances but we need to lynch the rogue nations. What I hear from you sounds like "lynch this guy because he could be in a SA" which makes no sense to me since we do not need to lynch in order to disrupt a SA. We do need to lynch to get rid of the Rogues. I feel like you are distracting from the search for Rogues by focusing on the SA when in theory they should be easy to control.

[Qantaga]

Remus, go back and look at my posts (any and all of them). I have never once said "lynch this guy because he could be in an SA."

As a matter of fact, I think this (posted after I had monitored Semaj on the first day) is pretty clear in that regard:

Just to be clear. I am not advocating that Semaj be lynched. I am pointing out to the rest of us good nations that a secret alliance has been formed and is just two nights from victory (at the expense of several good nations).

My continued opinion is that we try to lynch rogue states, but we also try to break up (by votes cast) any secret alliances that are uncovered.

[Qantaga]

I am pointing out to the rest of us good nations that a secret alliance has been formed and is just two nights from victory.

By the way, when I originally posted that the alliance could be just two nights from victory, that was before Semaj posited his daisy-chain theory that was confirmed by Scoop and Grund. With the daisy-chain in effect a secret alliance could win today, if they have 5 now and all vote together.

[msteelers]

I'm not saying we need to completely avoid the secret alliances. I'm saying let the rogue nations worry about them. If you have information on a secret alliance you want to break up, post it here and let the rogue nations take them out. Our time during the day needs to be spent worrying about the rogue nations, and our time during the night spent on finding secret alliances.

[Chaosraven]

I'm not saying we need to completely avoid the secret alliances. I'm saying let the rogue nations worry about them. If you have information on a secret alliance you want to break up, post it here and let the rogue nations take them out. Our time during the day needs to be spent worrying about the rogue nations, and our time during the night spent on finding secret alliances.

um... 'our time during the night'? Combined with letting rogue nations taking them out?

[Semaj]

yeah, i guessed right, apparently they missed me, and my ability to speak coherently is back, but I am drunker than a... hrm... I got nothing... I'm still drunk from last night.

I guess they thought I had 3 months to make up for.

Either that or it was my birthday, not sure. It was a double whammy.

I should be coherent in the thinking aspect in about... *debated drunkenness*... 6 hours maybe...possibly 8... I'll try to add more then.

I should probably finish the drink I have form last night t some point, but I ca SMELL the whiskey from here... lol...

Anyways, in my post here was a special message aout why I really wont be pying attention today, see you guys late tonight or tomorrow.

[Remus West]

Remus, go back and look at my posts (any and all of them). I have never once said "lynch this guy because he could be in an SA."

As a matter of fact, I think this (posted after I had monitored Semaj on the first day) is pretty clear in that regard:

Just to be clear. I am not advocating that Semaj be lynched. I am pointing out to the rest of us good nations that a secret alliance has been formed and is just two nights from victory (at the expense of several good nations).

My continued opinion is that we try to lynch rogue states, but we also try to break up (by votes cast) any secret alliances that are uncovered.

So you are confirming then that you are spending all this time looking for people you do NOT want to lynch? Where is the hunt for the Rogue nations? I'm with msteelers on this one. Let the Rogue's break up the alliances. They did a nice job destroying Grund's.

I'm still waiting for Theohall to answer my question though. I want to know how strong his alliance is. Of course he could always tell me to mind my own business I suppose but even that tells us something.

[Remus West]

Players with no votes: Qantaga, Semaj, Remus West, theohall

Theohall's possible partners from day 1 - Semaj, Qantaga, Remus West

I can confirm he was not in an alliance with me which leaves Qantaga and Semaj as possible. Everyone is possible today but if neither of them were involved then Theo is at worst the center of three. That does mean that any other grooup will be sending envoys his way tonight to make a single very large group if he lives.

I still think Vorret is Rogue. I still think Qanataga is Rogue. I'm still feeling willing to vote for either one. I have to admit though that rshetts posts confuse me and I wouldn't be unhappy to see him lynched but am unready to vote there yet.

[Scoop20906]

Voting History:
theohall acc Vorret
theohall wd Vorret

Vote Talley:
None

Players with no votes: Theohall, Semaj, Qantaga, Chaosraven, rshetts2, msteelers, Vorret, Remus West, Isgrimnur

Majority is 5 votes. The deadline for voting is Friday, October 22, 2010 at 10:00 pm ET

[Qantaga]

When I say this:

My continued opinion is that we try to lynch rogue states, but we also try to break up (by votes cast) any secret alliances that are uncovered.

How can you possibly conclude this:

So you are confirming then that you are spending all this time looking for people you do NOT want to lynch? Where is the hunt for the Rogue nations?

What part of my "we try to lynch rogue states" implies that I am not hunting for them?

This is the second time you've attributed things to me that I not only have not said, but have very clearly stated the opposite of what you attribute to me. I'm not sure why you would want to do that if you are a good nation looking for rogues. It's sounding more and more like you're just making things up to create a reason to try to stir up the vote against me. If you want to vote against me, fine. Just do so based on what I've really said, not on your attributing things to me that I clearly did not say.

[theohall]

I am wondering why Vorret doesn't seem to like me any more.

As to Remus - good question.

Why should I out everyone? Grundbegriff rejected my request on Day One due to accepting someone else. I would have had to accept an offer from someone else on Day One, since Vorret monitored my communications on Day Two, thus there can be no one else entering on Day Two.

Folks told the other group not to vote together, but they did anyway and the consequence was one of them getting blown up by the Rogues. At the same time, not voting as a group also cements the alliance.

So what do you want me to do, geniuses? Not vote and have my "friends" not vote with me? Or vote so you can figure out who they might be? Either way works for the alliance. Of course, the option is lynch me instead of finding the Rogues, which is probably what you all will do anyway.

How big is it? The most possible nations I can be allied with and actually know is 2 (Rejected by Grund, Accepted another, Envoy to someone (RW/not RW - guess), and Accept another but Vorret would have seen this). All I know is it makes me the big target now, instead of actually hunting down the Rogue Nations.

Me, someone else, and RW/someone else is the most possible to my knowledge. This assumes someone even sent me an Envoy on Day One.

OTOH, Remus West could be in just as large of an alliance or larger. No one knows if he allied with someone on Day One and if it held. If it did, he could be in as large as a 5 country alliance. Sent and Received Envoys each day = 4 countries plus his own.

Nice that he challenged me when it is already known it is not possible for me to be in a larger alliance than his due to Tuvalu being rejected on Day One.

In other words, if Remus West played it right, his alliance is on the verge of securing a victory.

[msteelers]

In other words, if Remus West played it right, his alliance is on the verge of securing a victory.

Doubtful. If anyone was already in an alliance with 5 people then they would have already voted as a block and won the game.

[Vorret]

I don't hate you Theo!
But in order for me to have a chance at winning, I need to reveal your alliance attempt.

Granted, this paints a HUGE target on your back and innocent people might get nuked to oblivion because of that... but that's the risk you take when you try to backstab every other good country!

[Remus West]

When I say this:

My continued opinion is that we try to lynch rogue states, but we also try to break up (by votes cast) any secret alliances that are uncovered.

How can you possibly conclude this:

So you are confirming then that you are spending all this time looking for people you do NOT want to lynch? Where is the hunt for the Rogue nations?

What part of my "we try to lynch rogue states" implies that I am not hunting for them?

This is the second time you've attributed things to me that I not only have not said, but have very clearly stated the opposite of what you attribute to me. I'm not sure why you would want to do that if you are a good nation looking for rogues. It's sounding more and more like you're just making things up to create a reason to try to stir up the vote against me. If you want to vote against me, fine. Just do so based on what I've really said, not on your attributing things to me that I clearly did not say.

You claim to be hunting Rogues but all you do is point ouot those you think in alliances. You have not actually done anything towards finding the Rogues. That speaks much louder than your claims to be hunting them. You have given us several targets that you think are in SAs. You have given us how many you think are Rogue?

On to other things that have been on my mind. Why has nobody asked about the scan target Grund hinted at to CR - a target the rest of you that monitored Grund should have the same code towards finding. What exactly did Grund say in his post other than the use the word super bit that would make folks think he had a super spy? Anyone ever consider that he got blown up not to remove his SA but to remove that Super spy? Those who intercepted his message might be able to tell us more about that possibility. Why is Chaosraven (and presumably those who intercepted Grund's message) keeping a nation that was scanned good secret from the rest of us?

[Vorret]

On to other things that have been on my mind. Why has nobody asked about the scan target Grund hinted at to CR - a target the rest of you that monitored Grund should have the same code towards finding. What exactly did Grund say in his post other than the use the word super bit that would make folks think he had a super spy? Anyone ever consider that he got blown up not to remove his SA but to remove that Super spy? Those who intercepted his message might be able to tell us more about that possibility. Why is Chaosraven (and presumably those who intercepted Grund's message) keeping a nation that was scanned good secret from the rest of us?

I monitored Grund on the first day and he didn't hint anything other than he received conspiracy offers from LL and Theo.

So... we know that Grund scanned one target and that target wasn't evil.
Who was it, maybe we can scratch someone else off the evil list... good point.

[Qantaga]

You claim to be hunting Rogues but all you do is point ouot those you think in alliances. You have not actually done anything towards finding the Rogues. That speaks much louder than your claims to be hunting them. You have given us several targets that you think are in SAs. You have given us how many you think are Rogue?

I've given you three that I think are Rogue (you at the top of that list):

I don't have a good read on the rogue states.

With little to go on, my three suspects, at the moment:

1. Remus West. His continued declarations of suspecting anyone who wants to break up a secret alliance seems like he's making up a reason to start throwing votes on anyone (a position a rogue state would like to establish). We all konw the value of forming a secret alliance and any of us (good and bad) will be trying to win in that manner, if possible. However, of course, anyone not in a secret alliance will also be doing everything they can to break up an alliance. Remus knows this, he even posted as much when telling Grund not to vote. So, it just seems like a fabricated way for him to vote out a good nation at his whim.

2. rshetts2. As Vorret says, Lagom suspected him, even while he was in an alliance with him. Maybe Lagom was on to something.

3. Vorret. Even though he later confirmed with msteelers that he did intercept Grund's transmission, it seemed strange that he was complicit in Lagom's lie.

Again, you seem to have no interest whatsoever in what I actually say. You are ignoring my real posts and just making up things to attribute them to me. I've done every bit as much as you have in trying to find Rogues, good sir. It really makes me wonder why you keep making statements about me that are untrue.

I, too, am curious how Chaos knows Grund's proven good nation.

[Chaosraven]

He used *MY* Code, and unless you monitored me, you don't know it. I already noted my allies have been blown up. Obviously Grund was one.

[Remus West]

He used *MY* Code, and unless you monitored me, you don't know it. I already noted my allies have been blown up. Obviously Grund was one.

So, you are the only one going into last night that would have known he had a Super spy?

[Remus West]

You claim to be hunting Rogues but all you do is point ouot those you think in alliances. You have not actually done anything towards finding the Rogues. That speaks much louder than your claims to be hunting them. You have given us several targets that you think are in SAs. You have given us how many you think are Rogue?

I've given you three that I think are Rogue (you at the top of that list):

I don't have a good read on the rogue states.

With little to go on, my three suspects, at the moment:

1. Remus West. His continued declarations of suspecting anyone who wants to break up a secret alliance seems like he's making up a reason to start throwing votes on anyone (a position a rogue state would like to establish). We all konw the value of forming a secret alliance and any of us (good and bad) will be trying to win in that manner, if possible. However, of course, anyone not in a secret alliance will also be doing everything they can to break up an alliance. Remus knows this, he even posted as much when telling Grund not to vote. So, it just seems like a fabricated way for him to vote out a good nation at his whim.

2. rshetts2. As Vorret says, Lagom suspected him, even while he was in an alliance with him. Maybe Lagom was on to something.

3. Vorret. Even though he later confirmed with msteelers that he did intercept Grund's transmission, it seemed strange that he was complicit in Lagom's lie.

Again, you seem to have no interest whatsoever in what I actually say. You are ignoring my real posts and just making up things to attribute them to me. I've done every bit as much as you have in trying to find Rogues, good sir. It really makes me wonder why you keep making statements about me that are untrue.

I, too, am curious how Chaos knows Grund's proven good nation.

Ah, so finally we come back to that. Which I find funny in timing since you just accused me of twisting your words and yet your own post that you quoted is a complete twist of mine. I said nothing about those who want to break up secret alliances. In fact I was the first to note we could accomplish that by isolating votes. What I said was that those who claimed no interest in being in one (as some folks tried to proclaim themselves yesterday) seem more evil because they are claiming they are not trying to pursue one of the paths to victory.

[theohall]

I don't hate you Theo!
...
but that's the risk you take when you try to backstab every other good country

So this is supposed to mean you are not trying to win secretly, as well????

The only ones who might not try are Super Spy or Rogue nations.

So which are you?

[Qantaga]

Dear Governor-General Remus,

You know my position and I know yours. I'll leave it to the other participants to decide which (one or both) of us is twisting the other's words.

Sincerely,
Prime Minister Qantaga


Back to the task at hand, does anyone have any knowledge/insight/intuition on who might be a likely rogue state? Or are we all grasping at straws right now?

[Chaosraven]

He used *MY* Code, and unless you monitored me, you don't know it. I already noted my allies have been blown up. Obviously Grund was one.

So, you are the only one going into last night that would have known he had a Super spy?

anyone who monitored me would have the code.

[Remus West]

He used *MY* Code, and unless you monitored me, you don't know it. I already noted my allies have been blown up. Obviously Grund was one.

So, you are the only one going into last night that would have known he had a Super spy?

anyone who monitored me would have the code.

So, are you going to share your knowledge before the end of the day or do we risk losing it tonight? No rush, when I say end of day that is what I mean but you really do need to share before nightfall. Or prelynch if we get close to nuking the target.

[Chaosraven]

I will tell what I saw unless someone else does first before 'endofday'

[Vorret]

I will tell what I saw unless someone else does first before 'endofday'

Why wait?
I posted everything I got so far maybe some more info could help us figure something out cause right now we have... nothing.

[Vorret]

I don't hate you Theo!
...
but that's the risk you take when you try to backstab every other good country

So this is supposed to mean you are not trying to win secretly, as well????

The only ones who might not try are Super Spy or Rogue nations.

So which are you?

Unless I get nuked soon, I don't plan to win secretly... if we work together I'm sure we can figure out who's who.
There's another super spy somewhere who's not sharing much so we don't have alot to work with (though I understand why after Grund quick elimination)

[Chaosraven]

I will tell what I saw unless someone else does first before 'endofday'

Why wait?
I posted everything I got so far maybe some more info could help us figure something out cause right now we have... nothing.

to see what way the votes and accusations go. In the event there's a push on PlayerX, we can examine it.

[Chaosraven]

...And after my shattered alliance with Unagi and Grund, I have nothing else to use/offer. I monitored Grund, then Isgrim. My amazing monitoring of grund got me a dual copy of his message. Isgrim sent nuthin'. I hate this game.

[Isgrimnur]

[theohall]

Unless I get nuked soon, I don't plan to win secretly...

Please explain why you would not use every possible way to win? This sounds way off to me. Unless you have a secret power which can help you win without winning via secret alliance. Only Rogue Nations have that power.

[theohall]

...And after my shattered alliance with Unagi and Grund, I have nothing else to use/offer. I monitored Grund, then Isgrim. My amazing monitoring of grund got me a dual copy of his message. Isgrim sent nuthin'. I hate this game.

I love this game. All the double dealing, lying and behind the scenes stuff with each of us trying to figure out what is really going on is totally awesome!!!!

And this is with me potentially on the chopping block.

[Vorret]

Unless I get nuked soon, I don't plan to win secretly...

Please explain why you would not use every possible way to win? This sounds way off to me. Unless you have a secret power which can help you win without winning via secret alliance. Only Rogue Nations have that power.