Bond II - The Prometheus Dawn - END!

[Unagi]

When it seems to me like you aren't really at all (actually, I will say - just now finally today, almost out of the entire game - you finally are) looking for a bad guy.

Oh, you mean like you've been looking for a bad guy?

Yeah, sorry I'm not perfect when I suggest we vote off silent Grund (and likely saved your skin in the process)
Where you have (predominantly via triggercut, none the less) placed your vote on Scoop this entire game.

You've been convinced it's tru!cy

that's a stretch.

then Grund, then msteelers, then Chaosraven, then Remus,

yeah, Grund wasn't troubling.
and you are going to call me out on Chaosraven?

And, Remus - the math errors on population counts really do tend to point to wolves, what do you want me to do about that.
I dunno about msteelers... he was in the shadows (turns out because he knew he could prove himself at any minute)
And, by the way, my "msteelers should shoot" vote was on RMC.

I'm always looking for bad guys, I'm just not as apt to propose that I "know" who's bad when it's really just guesswork.

Don't you be putting "know" in quotes, when indeed I've said a number of times that I'm not certain. (I never say "i know" in these games, well, maybe long, long ago)

And the irony of you saying all this is rich...

When you look at the votes currently on me, you will see that Scoop, Tru1cy, and msteelers also voted off a good theohall, while Lassr voted for me last time. It's a virtual certainty that at least one of the bad guys is in that group.

Remember that one? My only point here being that while haven't used the language of certainty, you do (or did), and yet here you are saying things like I was 'certain' on tru1cy, that I "knew" Remus was bad, and even that I'm apparently "certain" you are Hugo... I actually don't frame my case like that at all.

[Qantaga]

My impressions of two of the three of you. (See note at end of post as to why it's only two right now.)

I have an early start tomorrow, so I can't be nearly as detailed as Unagi and stessier have been and probably won't quote much. However, I'll be more than happy to address anything at all tomorrow evening and answer any questions any of you might have on anything here.

Scoop

Good:

- RMC hanging all over Scoop (his oft-repeated refrain that he was only following Scoop) seems so heavy handed that Scoop has some mighty big cojones if he agreed to this strategy. I would think RMC would choose to hang all over someone who is not an evil teammate in case one of them is lynched. The key moment that makes me give thought to Scoop being innocent is that, when the heat turned up in the last day, RMC played the "Scoop is the evil one here" card. I can see RMC wanting to be reckless (to draw the 'zerker lynch) and I guess pointing at your partner would give you street cred if that partner turns up evil. However, I would have thought (if Scoop were bad) RMC would have pointed at any one of us (Qantaga, Unagi, stessier - not Chaos or msteelers as they were proven at that time) to square off against a (theoretically) good agent rather than to square off against his partner.

- Scoop seemed to be bopping along the whole game. I've already mentioned that his play strikes me as that of reckless abandon. I realize that others here know that to be normal, but he has brought it to an art form if he can keep that recklessness up when he's evil.

- He is seeing, and standing by, the logic of the n-1 vote against me, when it would have been very easy for (theoretically) evil Scoop to align himself with Unagi in Unagi's campaign against me.

Bad:

- He was consistently voting against me early and often. Yes, I know that is triggercut-ish, but it is still valid, since he went from "due" to his "virtually certain" comment of mine to his actively campaigning for (Unagi, Chaos, RMC, and Lassr) to vote me off ("breathing life" into the game) to his "hey Unagi, will you vote for Q with me?" Since I know I'm good, I also know that every one of these reasons is a made up excuse to lynch a good agent.

- He did have an awful lot of interaction with RMC and Lassr that looked antagonistic. Unagi sees it as proof that Scoop is good. I see it as something that could easily be imagined and constructed in the thread, especially given Scoop's (and Unagi's) admission that he rarely checks in with his partners when he's evil.

- His semi-claiming of special roles. Yes, I know he claims that he was hoping the bad guys would kill him at night, but it strikes me more as a ploy to try to get a real special to counter him ("oh, hey, I was just trying to get killed in your place") while the special is now exposed.

- As stessier mentioned, he listed RMC as his lead candidate for Odd Job, then proceeded to push for a vote for him.


My problem with Scoop is that I see more good in him than stessier sees and I see more evil in him than Unagi does.


Unagi

Good:

- I've been preaching all along that anything posted can be manufactured and tweaked to look convincing. However, there were two things Unagi said that struck me as pure:

I can also add that I know 100% that your villain will not be me.
There is a 0% chance that you and I will be arguing this morning about my status.
(Unless you decide to torment me briefly, )

and:

Remus.
If I'm a villain I'll buy your lunch at the next octocon.
No wait, if I'm a villain, I'll buy you and chaos lunch and give you and chaos $100 for some titty bar.

Heh. Now that's meta gaming.

I remember reading the first comment and thinking, "That is quite a bit of confidence for someone who may easily have been Remus' scan at that moment." I remember reading the second comment and thinking, "Man, if Unagi is evil, Remus will never trust him again in anything." Of course, I don't know how far people push assurances here to gain victory. It may be standard OO practice that anything goes and is expected.

- As I said earlier, it's hard for me to imagine Hugo sinking his teeth so deeply into only one conclusion (his conviction that I am evil). I realize it is possible, but Unagi's persistence seems more good than evil.

Bad:

- Seems to have been campaigning for the lynching of quite a few good agents, especially his fervor against Remus before Chaos proved Remus. It struck me odd that he still voted on Remus, even after he acknowledged that Remus was claiming the Seer role (albeit, before Chaos proved Remus). I even wonder if Remus was on to something with his theory that Unagi thought Remus was spoofing the Seer because Remus said he had two scans, when only the Seer and the wolves knew the EMP had gone off.

- When his back was up against the wall (he had been all over Remus, then Remus turned out to be the proven Seer) and Remus was calling for Bond to shoot Unagi, Unagi came out with an analysis for Bond to shoot RMC. On the surface, that would seem to exonerate Unagi, but at that point, Lassr was already uncovered. It would make sense for a (theoretically) bad Unagi to want to be able to say, "I gave you Odd Job" why would I ever do that if I were bad? Normally, it wouldn't seem logical, but with Unagi already being suggested for the cross-hairs, what a way to waltz to the end game by being the one to uncover the 'zerker? Once tru1cy was shot and votes started piling up on Lassr, Unagi backpedalled on RMC, saying he wasn't sure if RMC was a villain or not.


*Gents, the night has gotten away from me. I still have a couple items that I need to add to the Scoop and Unagi lists and I haven't even started on stessier yet. So, I still owe you more of my thoughts tomorrow.

[Qantaga]

[And the irony of you saying all this is rich...

When you look at the votes currently on me, you will see that Scoop, Tru1cy, and msteelers also voted off a good theohall, while Lassr voted for me last time. It's a virtual certainty that at least one of the bad guys is in that group.

Remember that one? My only point here being that while haven't used the language of certainty, you do (or did), and yet here you are saying things like I was 'certain' on tru1cy, that I "knew" Remus was bad, and even that I'm apparently "certain" you are Hugo... I actually don't frame my case like that at all.

I do remember saying "virtually certainty" quite clearly. I also remember defending myself on my use of it when Scoop tried to use it to claim me evil. As it happens, I was correct at least on Lassr and maybe on Scoop. It seems that I did use "virtually certainty" correctly the one time I used it.

And, Unagi, you forgot to comment on this part:

(this post is really just meant in good humor (note the winkie), not as a serious rebuttal to your accusation of me looking to find a bad guy. it just struck me funny that you're calling me out for not looking when that approach doesn't always help those of us on the good agent team).

I truly had a smile on my face while I was posting that. I probably should have just left it alone, but it seemed funny to me that you were calling me out for not "looking for a wolf" when no ones track record is particularly stellar in this game. I do apologize if the good-naturedness I was trying to convey (a lighter moment) didn't make it into the text I typed. I have no issue at all with your playstyle, I just thought I could contrast the accusation you made against me.

[Qantaga]

Fair Warning:

My company has entered into a partnership with a new software publisher. I will be locked in a meeting almost all day. I will try to check in, but I will be at their complex and I have no idea if I will have access to a computer there or not. They have already said that our laptops will not be cleared on their network by tomorrow.

It will be late in the afternoon/early evening Tuesday before I am able to get back to the thread.

[Qantaga]

I'm always looking for bad guys, I'm just not as apt to propose that I "know" who's bad when it's really just guesswork.

Don't you be putting "know" in quotes, when indeed I've said a number of times that I'm not certain. (I never say "i know" in these games, well, maybe long, long ago)

You are correct. That was a poor choice to put know in quotes, especially in something I meant as light-hearted. My apologies.

[Qantaga]

I do remember saying "virtually certainty" quite clearly. I also remember defending myself on my use of it when Scoop tried to use it to claim me evil. As it happens, I was correct at least on Lassr and maybe on Scoop. It seems that I did use "virtually certainty" correctly the one time I used it.

I should know better than to type when I'm tired. Both of those bolded parts should, of course, read "virtual certainty."

[Scoop20906]

The last posts are the Qantaga I have seen in these games. Well reasoned and thoughtful posts. Something I can never achieve.

This plus the N-1 moment and I have officially cleared Qantaga as good in this game.

So, that leaves me with a vote for either Stessier and Unagi.

Stessier has out right gunned me for today (notice this is the first time in the whole game) while Unagi has declared me as good and I don't know which thing worries me more.

I will say that Unagi's attitude towards me has been consistent through out the game.

However, Stessier sudden push for a vote on my was a bit of a surprise as I expected him to take more broad view to the three possible candidates he had left. That type of focused attack on the last day has given me pause. Toss in the triggercut principle since I know he is actively losing the game for us.

Hmmmmmm....

[Unagi]

The last posts are the Qantaga I have seen in these games. Well reasoned and thoughtful posts. Something I can never achieve.

This plus the N-1 moment and I have officially cleared Qantaga as good in this game.

So, at the very end of the game, only after you pointed out his style being wrong - you are actually suddenly OK with him finally finding his 'normal' approach to playing the game - now that his last posts are the Qantaga that you've seen in previous games.

[Unagi]

I'll also point out that Qantaga seemed to invoke the triggercut principle against Scoop the whole game - but here when I go all out for Qantaga, the 'triggercut' principle isn't something he is interested in... He just says that I must be a misguided Good Guy. Something he was absolutely unwilling to do when Scoop was focused on him.

[Scoop20906]

The last posts are the Qantaga I have seen in these games. Well reasoned and thoughtful posts. Something I can never achieve.

This plus the N-1 moment and I have officially cleared Qantaga as good in this game.

So, at the very end of the game, only after you pointed out his style being wrong - you are actually suddenly OK with him finally finding his 'normal' approach to playing the game - now that his last posts are the Qantaga that you've seen in previous games.

No, I disagree though maybe I didn't post as much. I've felt that since the N-1 one moment that I haven't been as spooked by Qantaga as earlier in the game but truth be told I didn't really have much to go on in the first two times I voted for him. Just rattling cages to get the game moving.

[Scoop20906]

I'll also point out that Qantaga seemed to invoke the triggercut principle against Scoop the whole game - but here when I go all out for Qantaga, the 'triggercut' principle isn't something he is interested in... He just says that I must be a misguided Good Guy. Something he was absolutely unwilling to do when Scoop was focused on him.

I can see what you are saying Unagi but I can't get past the N-1 moment where both baddies put Qantaga at death's door right after each other. If they actually planned that whole thing I believe they deserve to win because it is just too ballsy to be true. If I'm wrong about that I won't feel as bad is if I am wrong about you or Stessier. Get my logic?

[stessier]

I find it odd that Q only now appears to be forming any opinions on us. I am also quite concerned with all the ezmating.

But then Scoop comes in to brush away all my fear. I find it odd that my finding Scoop to be the last one is a) a surprise, since I clearly stated yesterday that I thought it was Scoop and RMC, b) makes him re-evaluate the whole game. It seems he had reached one conclusion when Unagi had a clear target that I disputed but now he has to re-think things? I can think of 2 reasons: 1) he thought I'd lean Unagi and planned to join me there as Q is probably predisposed against Unagi at this point or 2) he thought I'd be convinced by Unagi and go Q, which he could then jump on for the easy finish. Scoop is not saying "stessier is wrong, this is what I think." He is saying "stessier is wrong and thus must be Evil."

Wow, I did not expect Stessier to go the direction he did. You've surprised me yet again, Stess.

Now I'm back to square one on my vote and I think its a damn good thing I waited to hear from Stess.

Why is this not setting off alarm bells for everyone? "Damn good thing I waited to hear from Stess" before voting indeed. He is not looking for wolves, he is looking to survive, just as he has been all game.

And the topper -

The last posts are the Qantaga I have seen in these games. Well reasoned and thoughtful posts. Something I can never achieve.

This plus the N-1 moment and I have officially cleared Qantaga as good in this game.

Q finally acts the way Scoop has been asking for, and he is suddenly cleared. Completely. As in - "Hey Q, it's me and you, let's find the last Baddie in that group over there."

Am I boxing at shadows here, or what?

[Unagi]

I'll also point out that Qantaga seemed to invoke the triggercut principle against Scoop the whole game - but here when I go all out for Qantaga, the 'triggercut' principle isn't something he is interested in... He just says that I must be a misguided Good Guy. Something he was absolutely unwilling to do when Scoop was focused on him.

I can see what you are saying Unagi but I can't get past the N-1 moment where both baddies put Qantaga at death's door right after each other. If they actually planned that whole thing I believe they deserve to win because it is just too ballsy to be true. If I'm wrong about that I won't feel as bad is if I am wrong about you or Stessier. Get my logic?

Let me tell you how I am dealing with the simular situation, Scoop.

I figure I can go right back to being uber concerned about handing you and stessier a victory, next game, and it's just a game - and I am going to go where I actually smell a Wolf, even though I'll be damned if I didn't see him playing with Sheep the other day. If I'm wrong, so be it, but frankly it will be an enormously sweet victory if I actually managed to 'side line' my concerns about being fooled by either of you - and it results in our victory.


I could certainly be handing stessier or you a path to victory, but I'm actually kinda happy to see that neither of you has seemed particularly interesting in 'seizing' the moment, as it were.

I'm actually even more set on Qantaga then I was before, his reaction and play this end day has been a 180 from how he even began 'this day' (let alone the entire game)

[Unagi]

Why is this not setting off alarm bells for everyone? "Damn good thing I waited to hear from Stess" before voting indeed. He is not looking for wolves, he is looking to survive, just as he has been all game.

The main answer I give to this is simply, "it's Scoop" - as I can't tell you how many times I've felt the exact thing you are feeling.
Not sure what else to tell you.
I see what you are seeing... the thing that I don't think Scoop would try to pull off, is all of the interactions with Lassr and RMC.
I just can't reconsile that. Scoop isn't that 'slick', and that would have been slick. There are moments of 'explaination' given to RMC that I don't think Scoop the faker would have bothered with. I just don't.

And the topper -

The last posts are the Qantaga I have seen in these games. Well reasoned and thoughtful posts. Something I can never achieve.

This plus the N-1 moment and I have officially cleared Qantaga as good in this game.

Q finally acts the way Scoop has been asking for, and he is suddenly cleared. Completely. As in - "Hey Q, it's me and you, let's find the last Baddie in that group over there."

Am I boxing at shadows here, or what?

I agree, that annoyed the shit out of me, to be honest (and I posted as much). And while I did (and still do) wonder if it was a Wolf-Scoop doing it, I honestly don't feel it's so simple. I think he just says things without thinking and thats what they sound like.

[Scoop20906]

LOL. Its why I make such a horrible wolf.

Right now this whole convo creates a mental picture in my mind of a small room with four walls and the four of us each sitting with our backs to a wall and a hand on our knives.

I've simply haven't been in such a fun finale in what feels like ages and its kudos all three of you that I can't make up my mind who is Hugo.

FUN FUN! Bravo to you all.

[Qantaga]

I'll also point out that Qantaga seemed to invoke the triggercut principle against Scoop the whole game - but here when I go all out for Qantaga, the 'triggercut' principle isn't something he is interested in... He just says that I must be a misguided Good Guy. Something he was absolutely unwilling to do when Scoop was focused on him.

Unagi, I'm stunned that you can't see the difference.

I triggercutted against Scoop because I know that his reasons for voting for me were all make believe (he's even admitted as much now). To me, made up reasons are valid reasons for triggercutting.

I'm not triggercutting on you because you have based your opinion on your belief that Scoop and stessier are innocent. Opinions with a reasonable foundation don't trip my triggercut threshhold, while those I know to be made up, do.

[Qantaga]

I am also quite concerned with all the ezmating.

What exactly is ezmating?

[Unagi]

I am also quite concerned with all the ezmating.

What exactly is ezmating?

ezmating:
being so ultra concerned with how you will be perceived during a time of quiet, that you go to great lengths to describe exactly what it is you will be doing over the next X hours.

You've been doing it non-stop since you became the last wolf.

[Qantaga]

Oh, so that's ezmating. I had no idea. Here's another for you:

I am rushing out to a Diary of Anne Frank rehearsal (Proud parent moment: my daughter has been cast in the role of Anne in a local communtiy theatre).

Back to the game, I am trying as hard as possible to convince Unagi that I am good.

Why? Because I really want the good agents to win this game. Last game, I was Q and found Remus (Jaws). Then, I had to watch from the sidelines as bad Lassr and Chaos chewed up the remaining good agents. I would love to see the good agents win this time around.

I have, however, learned definitively something that I should have known three days ago. It doesn't matter what I post or how I post it, Unagi will only see it as evidence of me being evil.

I find myself now desperately hoping that Unagi is bad, because the further he entrenches himself in his belief (against the evidence right there in the game record showing him that I am innocent) that I am Hugo, the more likely it is that the final choice will be for Scoop and stessier to choose between either me or Unagi. If Unagi is good, he is leading the good team down the road to ruin.

I am not Hugo.

[Scoop20906]

From my perspective its between Unagi and Stessier at the moment, Q.

[Scoop20906]

I've made my decision.

Hugo is stessier.

 accuse stessier 
 

Take a look at Stessier's voting record. Never on a vote of any consequence. Stayed on the silent bandwagon nearly the entire first half of the game. Really got my attention with the voting record posts which is my belief that he was trying to look helpful without taking any chances. And now at the end he comes out fully against Scoop who his teammates (RMC and Lassr) have been chipping away at the entire game. In fact, I seem to remember he was in on a few of those "RMC doesn't know scoop very well" jokes when RMC was using me as his reason for turning on his PC in the morning. (They were funny I admit).

So, Unagi and Q. Feel free to roll this around in your heads but I pretty confident I am handing you a winner. And think about it this way Q. Unagi is an idiot for pushing for your vote. There isn't enough evidence against you.

However, wouldn't the real FINAL BADDIE go after the easiest prey to swing votes to, me?!?

Unagi if you have fooled me...

[Unagi]

I'm not voting for stessier just like that, at all, Scoop.

From what's transpired I'm actually more firm than before on Qantaga, and frankly you've really done nothing to create a case.


And, as far as 'easy prey', why wouldn't stessier go against Qantaga when Qanataga has been swinging at you the whole game, and I had concluded he was evil.
Wasn't stessier the one to proclaim that he was probably Never going to vote for Qantaga?? Yet you find it amazing that he squared up on you???

If either one of you is the wolf, I'm being a complete fool - but you guys look dead on identical to me right now.

Q stands out like a sore thumb.

I think I made Qantaga the easy prey by being so damn firm on it, not one of you took it.... yet you both threw barbs back and forth at each other.

When he did that, did you try and prove your innocence? No
When you did it, does he try and prove his innocence? No.

But Qantaga's main priority, was to try and convince me he was innocenct.

Do you not see how different Qantaga's approach to this last day has been to both you and stessier!??

[Scoop20906]

Hey, Unagi. Imagine I just sent you a PM that the other two couldn't read. Now imagine what I just wrote you. Now imagine you and I are on the same page for the time being.

Nothing permanent or anything.

[stessier]

Hey, Unagi. Imagine I just sent you a PM that the other two couldn't read. Now imagine what I just wrote you. Now imagine you and I are on the same page for the time being.

Nothing permanent or anything.

What in the world are you talking about?

[Unagi]

Hey, Unagi. Imagine I just sent you a PM that the other two couldn't read. Now imagine what I just wrote you. Now imagine you and I are on the same page for the time being.

Nothing permanent or anything.

What in the world are you talking about?

Imagine Qantaga just sent you a PM that Grundbegriff couldn't read, and in it, everything was made perfectly clear - and then you had to eat a waffle filled with cheese so yellow it made the sky look green.

[Qantaga]

When he did that, did you try and prove your innocence? No
When you did it, does he try and prove his innocence? No.

But Qantaga's main priority, was to try and convince me he was innocenct.

So, here on OO, if I act with casual indifference, I am innocent? Yet, if I act with the conviction that I am innocent and the resolve to do everything I can to try to get you to turn your vote to a possible Hugo rather than on a certain innocent, then I am evil?

A strange and very cynical way to play a game.

Alas, it's just one more thing that you will be proven wrong on come game's end.

I am not Hugo.

[Qantaga]

Hey, Unagi. Imagine I just sent you a PM that the other two couldn't read. Now imagine what I just wrote you. Now imagine you and I are on the same page for the time being.

Nothing permanent or anything.

What in the world are you talking about?

Imagine Qantaga just sent you a PM that Grundbegriff couldn't read, and in it, everything was made perfectly clear - and then you had to eat a waffle filled with cheese so yellow it made the sky look green.

Oh, and here is one more thing that you are wrong about.

If that PM came from me, the waffle would be filled with cheese so white it made the sky look green.

[Scoop20906]

My vote stands on Stessier as being Hugo.

[Scoop20906]

I'm not voting for stessier just like that, at all, Scoop.

From what's transpired I'm actually more firm than before on Qantaga, and frankly you've really done nothing to create a case.


And, as far as 'easy prey', why wouldn't stessier go against Qantaga when Qanataga has been swinging at you the whole game, and I had concluded he was evil.
Wasn't stessier the one to proclaim that he was probably Never going to vote for Qantaga?? Yet you find it amazing that he squared up on you???

If either one of you is the wolf, I'm being a complete fool - but you guys look dead on identical to me right now.

Q stands out like a sore thumb.

I think I made Qantaga the easy prey by being so damn firm on it, not one of you took it.... yet you both threw barbs back and forth at each other.

When he did that, did you try and prove your innocence? No
When you did it, does he try and prove his innocence? No.

But Qantaga's main priority, was to try and convince me he was innocenct.

Do you not see how different Qantaga's approach to this last day has been to both you and stessier!??

Ok, I've read this post a couples times and what can I say, I think you are wrong about Qantaga. If anyone is the sore thumb sticking out its you. What I can't wrap my head around is why if you were a Wolf you would take this tact and that makes me think all the more that you are on our side. Then my other half of my brain is telling me that Qantaga, Lassr, and RMC aren't ballsy enough to put their guy to N-1 and let it hang there for a couple hours. It didn't look like a planned out event to me. It looks more like an eager RMC throwing is vote on and then looking to implicate me later (which I saw coming 10,000 miles away).

So, that leaves Stess and like I said earlier I have seen posts that link Stess, Lassr and RMC. Not alot (no good wolf would leave that much evidence) but its there.

So, yeah, I was lazy and didn't feel like going back and digging it up but I know I am working with Unagi here so I should have known better.

Let me go re-read...

[Scoop20906]

Guys, I want to win this one so work with me here. I want my name, SCOOP, to be feared in all future WW games. I want to be the guy that the baddies say to each other, "We better kill Scoop on the first night or we're screwed."

DO NOT SCREW THIS UP FOR ME, UNAGI!!!

[Unagi]

Actually, that's sorta what I've been saying here Scoop, so - if you would...

[Scoop20906]

If Stessier is Hugo he did a good job of covering his tracks. There wasn't much interaction between himself and RMC but here is what I gleaned from re-reading:

Ok, not much to this at first but it does show Stessier interacting with RMC in attempt to make me look wolfy.

Actually, that's sorta what I've been saying here Scoop, so - if you would...

Ok, I went through all the posts and in fact there was quite a but of interaction between Lassr and RMC but I could only find

With that avatar, would you expect anything less?

Just one more example for RMC that Scoop is far from infallible.

STOP IT!!!

Ok, Stessier would be good with shooting either me or RMC at that point. Yeah, not really damaging info, is it?

Of course, we'll need everyone to check in to make sure there are no counter claims of Ms. Havelock.

You mean besides Scoop?

I'd be good for shooting Scoop or RMC today.

Ok, just a little more of the smear campaign by stessier here.

Also Qantaga is saying he is a normal agent, but that is what he should say at this time when he is looking to have been found out.

You realize that, if I were evil, I would be claiming a special role (not vanilla), don't you?

See why would you claim a special role? It would be plausible for someone to out you as such. But hiding in the thick us agents is just easier.

Also... It looks like I have some thinking to do about the rest of you.

It worries me a bit that Scoop apparently has a reputation, but I really like his logic.

Wait - just how new are you? I thought you had played over at GT. Has anyone played with RMC before?

In case this is serious - a Wolf will claim a role when they are caught with the intent of having the actual role holder come forward to counter the claim. This tells the wolves who to kill by night - although since we have protection, it is not fool proof. And in the one in a million chance one of their night kills happens to be the Special they called out, they might be able to spoof that Role for the remainder of the game. Of course, they are then betting that our scanner didn't scan their kill while he was alive.

A Villager will not do this as we want to keep our Specials hidden until they have done their work and can hand us the game. Unless you are Scoop - then it's just a Bull-in-a-china-shop-how-many-of-my-own-guys-can-I-kill kind of thing.

Finally we have Stessier remarking on my comment on RMC's vote attempting to paint my reaction as a planned move.

Why do I feel like that was a setup?

So, thats what I pulled together Unagi and Qantaga.

[Scoop20906]

FIXED!!!

If Stessier is Hugo he did a good job of covering his tracks. There wasn't much interaction between himself and RMC but here is what I gleaned from re-reading:

Ok, not much to this at first but it does show Stessier interacting with RMC in attempt to make me look wolfy.

With that avatar, would you expect anything less?

Just one more example for RMC that Scoop is far from infallible.

STOP IT!!!

Ok, Stessier would be good with shooting either me or RMC at that point. Yeah, not really damaging info, is it?

Of course, we'll need everyone to check in to make sure there are no counter claims of Ms. Havelock.

You mean besides Scoop?

I'd be good for shooting Scoop or RMC today.

Ok, just a little more of the smear campaign by stessier here.

Also Qantaga is saying he is a normal agent, but that is what he should say at this time when he is looking to have been found out.

You realize that, if I were evil, I would be claiming a special role (not vanilla), don't you?

See why would you claim a special role? It would be plausible for someone to out you as such. But hiding in the thick us agents is just easier.

Also... It looks like I have some thinking to do about the rest of you.

It worries me a bit that Scoop apparently has a reputation, but I really like his logic.

Wait - just how new are you? I thought you had played over at GT. Has anyone played with RMC before?

In case this is serious - a Wolf will claim a role when they are caught with the intent of having the actual role holder come forward to counter the claim. This tells the wolves who to kill by night - although since we have protection, it is not fool proof. And in the one in a million chance one of their night kills happens to be the Special they called out, they might be able to spoof that Role for the remainder of the game. Of course, they are then betting that our scanner didn't scan their kill while he was alive.

A Villager will not do this as we want to keep our Specials hidden until they have done their work and can hand us the game. Unless you are Scoop - then it's just a Bull-in-a-china-shop-how-many-of-my-own-guys-can-I-kill kind of thing.

Finally we have Stessier remarking on my comment on RMC's vote attempting to paint my reaction as a planned move.

Why do I feel like that was a setup?

So, thats what I pulled together Unagi and Qantaga.[/quote]

[Unagi]

I'm unmoved, Scoop. Seriously.


here is what has transpired from my perspective: I have come up with what is (IMO) a damn compelling case against Qantaga (spare the N-1 moment...) .

Take away his "n-1" moment, and I dare say that he'd be swinging from a tree already.


Fact:
We need 3 people to make this day end.

Fact:
If 2 people hold strong to a choice, I imagine that some 3rd "Villager" would eventually give up and say "Fine, I'll go with you two just to end the game, this isn't my choice".

Fact:
I came out sincere against Qantaga and haven't really moved from that at all.


I know I am a villager, and I know that neither Scoop or Stessier joined me in my vote against Qantaga.

This tells me a lot (IMO) about Scoop and stessier, as I think they could have basically faked that they were convinced, and then just try and convince 'the other guy' to just go with Unagi's choice.

The longer this draws out, the more and more it seems clear that I actually did indeed land us a wolf in Qantaga.

If you think I am a wolf, then vote me off, If you don't think I am a wolf - then PLEASE look at the above with the thought of, "OK, so if Unagi isn't a wolf, then what does that say about the two people he didn't target"
(if that all makes sense).


Frankly, I know I have an up hill battle here. I not only need to convince Scoop and Stessier that I am not a wolf trying to fool them, I also need to get the two of you to drop your blinders for eachother.

If Stessier is Hugo he did a good job of covering his tracks.

maybe he just isn't Hugo?
(I can't believe I'm defending the two of you from eachother.... and if stessier is a wolf, he should sincerely worry about seeing me in person at Octocon this spring)

[Scoop20906]

Opinion: The Qantaga N-1 moment is more evidence for him being good then I think than the amount of evidence you have tried to show that he is guilty.

Reading your posts I think you have settled on Qantaga simply because you believe you have read Stessier and myself as good. In fact, I think one of your best catches was at one point Stessier said he skipped down to the end to read who died and skipped the flavor text. Thats good evidence for Stess being good.



Unless it was planted.



Think about it for a moment. I have seen a concerted effort among the two known wolves to shape the votes. Both Lassr and RMC were pretty vocal and votes quite often. And do they decided to run their Hugo up the flagpole?

No, I believe that Hugo was hiding in the background and if he voted it was on someone safe. Someone like tru1cy.

[Unagi]

Someone like tru1cy.

Scoop,
A wolf likes to keep tru1cy alive for the end game, not remove him from the list of unknowns.
Attacking tru1cy was trying to make this end-game less blind.
(if anything, Evil-stessier was trying to earn Good-Guy credit by putting his vote where it should be)

Scoop.

There are more moments than just that one for stessier.

Do you want me to go through and discuss them?

Same goes for stessier and the things he is seeing in you.

I'm enormously frustrated right now that neither of you is thinking outside the box and thinking about how this day would be different if Stessier or Scoop was the wolf.

The way it looks like this is going is that Scoop isn't going to move off his stessier stance.
Stessier (I assume) is still thinking it's Scoop.

So, it will be up to Qantaga to put that "2nd vote" on someone.... He will.... then we will sit here for days and days, where you would think the Wolf Would Spring In and Make The Final Kill... but the Human that's not on that vote doesn't want to be on that vote and it will all just sit there and point out that you have a Wolf in on the vote with you. If you all think I am the wolf, then clearly this would be me 'setting you all up'... but - my god, - Do you really think I would have 'selected Qantaga' to be the person I allienated? (and the two of you to convince?)
*(Qantaga and I were "Q and Bond" in the last game... if I were a wolf, I think I would have tried to earn Qantaga's trust here and worked You or Stessier against eachother.)

At that point will you be willing to vote for Qanataga?

Can you not see that this is the situation that Qantaga is not finding a way out of right now?

He, I think, needs for you two to sour on ME.


Same goes for you Stessier. Put your damn vote on Scoop.
Scoop - you are on Stessier already...

Let's see where Qanataga goes, and lets see how I jus sit here and wait for you and stessier to get your heads on.

In fact, Qantaga will actually likely suddenly turn convinced that it most likely is "Unagi", now that I've painted this all out.

[Qantaga]

I have a confession to make.

I am at the point where proving Unagi wrong is going to be as sweet as actually winning the game. I still want the good side to win, but this relentless certainty of his, when I know I'm innocent is making me crazy.

If you guys want to join Unagi and vote for me, go right ahead. I will enjoy the reveal immensely.

Unagi, I'm sure you realize that you are the one that is forcing a Qantaga v. Unagi showdown. Of the four of us, you are the least likely to change your vote or, as you say, " "Fine, I'll go with you two just to end the game, this isn't my choice".

In fact, Qantaga will actually likely suddenly turn convinced that it most likely is "Unagi", now that I've painted this all out.

So, you want to make it me v. you? Fine. Let's do it. I've had 5 days of trying to convince you that I'm good and, frankly, I've grown weary of the effort.

Are you willing to bet the game that I'm evil? Are you willing to hand the game to an evil Scoop or stessier (if you really are a good agent like you say you are)?

If so, let's have a shootout at high noon and get it all out in the open.

 Unagi 
 

[Qantaga]

Now, lest any good players think I am throwing the game out of frustration, there really are reasons I think Unagi might be Hugo:

------
* I am stunned that a good agent would be so dead set against me, especially with the n-1 moment right there in the game record. It could very easily be a hard stand for us all to say, "surely Hugo wouldn't try that." He himself makes a big deal over why in the world would he pick me, if that were his strategy. Looks like a stretch for plausible deniability there.
-----

-----
* His backpedalling on RMC (I've mentioned this before). Unagi was in the crosshairs to be shot by Bond. So, he came out with the suggestion to shoot RMC. Then, Bond shot tru1cy and the votes started up on Lassr. Then RMC posts:

OK, Bond...

Take your shot on RMC.

I am fairly convinced that Scoop and stessier are good guys.

If you do end up shooting me, please folks. remember - I called tru1cy, RMC, and Lassr. (And I got Lassr without Remus' help)

No just wait one minute. I am not a bad guy at all. I know I made the wrong choices, and did not learn from my first game at all, and got ax'd there as well.

Please scan me and then it will prove I am just a normal Agent.

And here comes Unagi's response:

RMC, there will very likely be no more scans.
I'm starting to wonder if you are a villain or not, once more.

I've been trying as hard as I can to change Unagi's mind and he won't budge. RMC posts that and Unagi goes, "oh, okay, free pass for you."
-----

-----
* Scoop and stessier have had ample opportunity to think of any excuse to join Unagi's bandwagon and neither one has.
-----

-----
* Scoop's shadow RMC. Who is the most likely player to put a noobie RMC up to mimicing Scoop all game? Unagi.
-----

So, as Unagi says, I am seeing reasons that he could be Hugo. He wasn't my first choice, but since he has virtually assured us that we will not reach a consensus on Scoop or stessier, I feel good enough that there is enough of a chance that he is Hugo to vote for him, since he is forcing us into this situation.

[Newcastle]

3 Votes need for Majority

Stessier (1) - Scoop,
Unagi (1) - Qantaga,


No Votes Cast: Stessier, Unagi,



Let me know if I've missed anything

[Qantaga]

Here are a few more:

-------------------------------------------------------------
* I know for a fact that everything Unagi is attributing to me is false. Why would a good agent make up so much about me, to the point where, no matter what I post or how I post it, he becomes more convinced of my guilt? I know I'm innocent, so this is triggercut on steriods.
--------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------
* Look at this:

The way it looks like this is going is that Scoop isn't going to move off his stessier stance.
Stessier (I assume) is still thinking it's Scoop.

So, it will be up to Qantaga to put that "2nd vote" on someone....

-and this:

Same goes for you Stessier. Put your damn vote on Scoop.
Scoop - you are on Stessier already...

This is the perfect setup for Unagi/Hugo. He is demanding that the two of you put a vote down on each other, so that I can put the 2nd vote down. Then, he leaps suddenly off me (surprise, surprise) for the kill.
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* Here's something that strikes me as odd, given Unagi's conviction of my guilt:

OK, I am actually starting to gel on RMC and Qantaga being the other two.

And, frankly - it's only because there were a few moments where I feel like Scoop and stessier did/said something that just makes me feel they are british agents, not villains.

There are a number of things that also make me feel that RMC and Qantaga are perhaps 'good', but they come across as 'fakeable' moments and not as just 'normal' as the things I saw that seemed to exonerate stessier and scoop. IMO.

And, to stessier, regarding Qantaga.
1) your huge defense of him created some 'stessier is a bad-guy noise' that was/is hard to see through. (even as 'Stessier=Bad' trying to earn 'Qantaga=Good' trust, or something...) you shouldn't do that.
2) it's really a mistake to think that an event that led to a player 'gettting out of the noose' actually proves them to be innocent, they could just be wise - and good at this.

Here, he is saying that he thinks I'm guilty. Yet he admonishes stessier for defending me and cites a bad stessier earning a good Qantaga's trust. Why would he call me evil, then turn right around and reveal that he's worried stessier is trying to sway my opinion? The only reason for him to care about my opinion is if he really knew that I was good all along.
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