OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

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Qantaga
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OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Qantaga »

I thought this might be a fun topic to explore outside the bounds of a particular game thread.

I realize I am one of the new kids on the block and you all have a rich history that has developed over the years.

However, I am genuinely curious about how much value you all place on some of these conventions/biases/myths that crop up from time to time.

If nothing else, it will be nice to learn about any more concepts that I haven't encountered before, or hear more about some of the ones hinted at in the other thread (Remuscide, Chaosraving, etc.) Maybe one day, I'll even earn my own cool game event nickname. :)

Obviously, most of these are coming out of the just finished Bond II game, so I know how Unagi feels about them. :)

I am just kidding about that. Unagi, this is not about you at all, I promise. I want to explore it because it's obvious that these are deeply rooted OO ideas.

Now, this is not meant to be a debate of any of the specifics of the Bond II game. I will mention the Bond II game because that's where the importance of these concepts really jumped out at me. I had heard of them all before, but that was the game that made me realize they may carry much more weight than I imagined.

I'm interested in just how deeply these concepts are intertwined in OO games and how much they really turn the outcome of a game.

Some of the things I am curious about:

1. Ezmating - Why is this ever an indication of guilt? Surely, good players have as much interest in winning as bad players? As I mentioned in the Bond game thread, I thought I was giving common courtesy when I knew I would be away from the game for close to 24 hours, especially given that it was the last (game) day and that it was not a (real world) weekend. My one "Fair Warning" post was as much for Newcastle as any of the players. I know he pours a lot of effort into these games and I wanted him to know that I was still very much involved in the game, even when I wasn't able to get online. I thnk that was my biggest surprise of all, that mentioning why I would be away for extended time led to a conclusion that I was evil. (And of course, the wolf there pressed that idea for all it was worth).

2. Defending Yourself - This seems incredibly strange to me. Why in the world wouldn't a good player want to try to convince the other good players of their good status. I've seen this in a few games. It seems like this inhibits the flow of information when players know that they can't try to defend themselves or they will be judged guilty. It also seems like OO has created a learned behavior where wolves can ignore their accuser to be cleared. I would think we would want to encourage everyone to address accusations to add more information to the game record. The idea of "you're guilty because you're trying so hard to defend yourself" seems to me to be incredibly counter-productive to the good team. I'm not as surprised by this as I was by the ezmating, but sometimes righteous indignation is really righeous indignation. :)

3. triggercutting - I get it. I understand the basic premise of why triggercutting can be a harbor for a wolf to hide in. However, it's like the old saying, "it isn't paranoid, if they're really after you." It seems that there is an environment here where a wolf can accuse any player they want, for any reason at all, and then they are protected by "triggercut" avoidance that handcuffs the accused from wondering aloud "why are they accusing me when I know for a fact that I am good?" You'd think that a wolf would go out of their way not to triggercut, so why is its use a condemnation of guilt?

4. Lack of Conviction - Is admitting that you haven't reached a conclusion on the wolves always interpreted as guilt? As a good agent, it's hard for me to spot the wolves with complete conviction. It seems the wolves would be more apt to posit a certainty of who is evil, rather than an honest good player, but I realize I have demonstrated my utter naivety in regard to these games. :)

Are there others?

(Or maybe just some really cool, old stories). :)

Do these really sway your opinion?

I would think the wolves know these biases, too. So, if anything the wolves are going to be even more careful of not falling into any of these OO patterns. It seems to me that the better way to find a wolf would be to look for those *not* exhibiting any of these rather than to deem those who do fall into them as evil.

As I said, I'm mainly interested to know if these are just fun things to throw around in the game threads or if they really sway your in-game decision making?

I wanted to open this up for any discussion so I can become more enlightened to the OO hive mindset.

I know these may sound a little self-serving, coming out of the Bond II game, but I am genuinely interested in learning the evolution and importance of these game situations.

Thanks for any information.
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Newcastle »

Ezmate - was borne when Ezmate, who was playing team evil, constantly and relentlessly provided reasons & excuses as to why he was absent from the game. Like..."hey guys am going out for lunch, i wont be here for 2 hours." or sorry guys I was watching my dogs play fetch, so i couldnt respond. It was just he amount of RL excuses he gave for his seeming "non participation". My memory is hazy but its something to that affect.

And in terms of getting nicknames, few are given those honors!
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Qantaga »

Oh, so there really was an EZMate?

In my mind I was hearing someone ((Lassr, maybe :)) saying, "Easy, mate...."
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Chaosraven »

Most of the Nicknamed events connect to a player and a game. Chaosraving (which I linked at the end of Bond) refers to the Collecting of Game Quotes, in the endeavor of 'proving' the guilt of one player. Usually accompanied by numerous comments as to why these quotes further your cause. Very specifically, the Wrong cause. Seen in a certain light or context, many things can be seen as Wolfy, and my blunder was just this. Four players left, one bad guy. Talking the others into voting for Player X by filling page after page of 'evidence'.
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The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Chaosraven »

Being relatively new to this crew, there isn't a history to base your actions on. So your actions are compared to others. For example, tru1cy posting five times a day is out of character. Chaosraven being quiet is out of character. Remus and Chaos not going after each other is odd (which happened in this game, for example, because Chaosraven had definitive proof Remus was Good as well).
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Chaosraven »

Remember that this is a game of behavioral deduction and paranoia. Why does playerX do this? Why did playerY avoid that? And yes, lots of it is iocane powder.
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

Sweet sweet meat come. -LordMortis
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Qantaga »

Chaosraven wrote:Most of the Nicknamed events connect to a player and a game. Chaosraving (which I linked at the end of Bond) refers to the Collecting of Game Quotes, in the endeavor of 'proving' the guilt of one player. Usually accompanied by numerous comments as to why these quotes further your cause. Very specifically, the Wrong cause. Seen in a certain light or context, many things can be seen as Wolfy, and my blunder was just this. Four players left, one bad guy. Talking the others into voting for Player X by filling page after page of 'evidence'.

I just went back through your link. The thing that jumped out at me (in addition to the Chaosraving, of course) was that it was from just over 4 years ago. So, then, I went back to the start of this forum and saw that the original game started in August 2006. Wow.

It looks like Grund has the longest tenure.

Did these games begin back on the Gone Gold forums or did they start up here?

There's a big history of games here.

Very impressive.
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Lassr »

Yes, the games started here, I don't recall any games at GG (Well, I guess they started somewhere and showed up here). And as Chaos said, all those names are given to certain types of behavior so doing them doesn't necessarily mean you are evil but they are things done by evil in the past. It's all about behavior in a situation.
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Lassr »

Qantaga wrote:
There's a big history of games here.

.
and we are still waiting on Chaosraven to update his History of the Games thread...
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.

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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Qantaga »

Lassr wrote: And as Chaos said, all those names are given to certain types of behavior so doing them doesn't necessarily mean you are evil but they are things done by evil in the past. It's all about behavior in a situation.

Lassr, I guess what I'm trying to guage is how much weight do you really put on these behaviors?

I understand about evaluating behavior in certain situations. However, it just seems to me that, in my very limited experience, both here and at GT, whenever these things are used as rationales for decision makings in these games, that rationale is almost always wrong.
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Grundbegriff »

Padre introduced the Mafia/Werewolf games to OO. (Of course, in the wild, they go back decades.)

This was the ezmate game, and was also the game where the (high) risk of "Remuscide" became a (permanent) factor in everyone's thinking.

Here's a spoiler-filled recap of all the early games.

Other memes that come to mind:
  • poking the innocents
  • Bakhshot
  • being me
  • "back to basics"
  • "a Lars-style game"
  • ...
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Newcastle »

I was actually curious about the origin of WW games, and they go back to mid 80's from the information I found. They originated in some European country, i want to say east europe...or even Czech, but i could be wrong on that. I think i found the information on wikipedia or something.

But yeah, lot of history here, been relatively consistent for bout 5 some years, though the numbers have fluctuated. Would like to see new blood, or even old blood back in so we can get some more numerous games rolling, but am thats just a mini complaint more than anything else.
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Lassr »

Qantaga wrote:
Lassr wrote: And as Chaos said, all those names are given to certain types of behavior so doing them doesn't necessarily mean you are evil but they are things done by evil in the past. It's all about behavior in a situation.

Lassr, I guess what I'm trying to guage is how much weight do you really put on these behaviors?

I understand about evaluating behavior in certain situations. However, it just seems to me that, in my very limited experience, both here and at GT, whenever these things are used as rationales for decision makings in these games, that rationale is almost always wrong.
I agree it is not often right. As an example, I do a lot of ezmating just because someone will try to read something into it. Sometimes I do it just to mess with people. I occasionally triggercut, but usually when I really don't know where to vote or to get a reaction.

The defending oneself is the tricky one. Obviously you don't want to die in these games but considering death in a game doesn't mean death in real life it can be Ok to die to further the good agenda. If you keep fighting it it can become a hindrance to good and it may be because you are evil and dying really hurts your team. So adamantly defending oneself early can look bad but we expect it in the end game.

Lack of conviction in the end game can appear as if you are keeping your options open to see which way the wind bows so you can hop on board as evil. I don't read much into that unless you've been that way the entire game then it might raise some eyebrows as to why you don't seem to be trying to pinpoint someone who is evil.
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Remus West »

Grundbegriff wrote:Padre introduced the Mafia/Werewolf games to OO. (Of course, in the wild, they go back decades.)

This was the ezmate game, and was also the game where the (high) risk of "Remuscide" became a (permanent) factor in everyone's thinking.
I like to think of that as the "reread the dead people's posts" lesson myself. :P
Here's a spoiler-filled recap of all the early games.

Other memes that come to mind:
  • poking the innocents
Ah, a shining moment in the sun. :D
  • Bakhshot
  • being me
  • "back to basics"
  • "a Lars-style game"
  • ...
[/list]
How can you leave off "Scooping the vote"? Poor guy worked hard to get that many kill votes in a single game. :lol:
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Remus West »

oooh....also, if you ever want some fun and are 20+ pages into a game mention some minute detail that sounds as though it may be important to stessier and/or chaosraven. It will keep both of them out of your way and busy for several hours as they comb back through the entire thread trying to verify your nugget. Or request a list from them. That is also fun. :twisted:
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Grundbegriff »

I'm sure I left off all sorts of stuff. I was hoping the ellipsis would cover it all. ;)
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Chaosraven »

As an example, chaosraven being quiet: (a) busy as hell at work, (b) no internet access, or (c) too chatty in the secret forum to keep up the attention and post count in the game thread. We had a game where I was a Mason, got converted to evil, and had three forums to keep up with. That is actually where the stessier comment Remus tossed out happened. I gave him a lengthy list of things to look up to keep him occupied while I conspired with my evil teammates. But which is it when you see it happen? Do I ezmate(tm) my lack of participation? If I do, what does that tell you? The math error in Bond led Unagi on a chase after Remus, as it might be a slip. The slip is what we look for. Stessiers 180 on scoop was a tipoff. Unagis dogged pursuit of you was a tipoff. Stessiers comments that Unagi fell for were planted fakes (and worked on me as well).
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by stessier »

Remuscide

Scoop's Bull in the China shop routine

I think there are some others I forgot.
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Chaosraven »

stessier wrote:Remuscide

Scoop's Bull in the China shop routine

I think there are some others I forgot.
perhaps you should go look them up and compile a list...
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Grundbegriff »

Chaosraven wrote:
stessier wrote:Remuscide

Scoop's Bull in the China shop routine

I think there are some others I forgot.
perhaps you should go look them up and compile a list...
Heh.

In addition to the Scoop-as-Charlie-Sheen thing, there's also the

"I'm Hymie!"

thing. Scoop only did that once, as I recall, in the Get Smart game, but it was so bizarre and logic-defying to have three Hymie claimants that the association stuck.

Come to think of it, haven't we gathered all this lore in one place before? Who did that, and where?
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by stessier »

I think you guys did it for me in the Lars Lynching game I was part of. Actually, I think Chaos sent it to me by email. I'll see if I still have it.

Another one - Semejulation!
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by stessier »

Grundbegriff wrote: Other memes that come to mind:
  • poking the innocents
  • Bakhshot
  • being me
  • "back to basics"
  • "a Lars-style game"
  • ...
While looking for the list of memes, came across the exact post that started created this one:

Bakhshot

Still cracks me up 3 years later. :lol: And makes me shudder that it's been 3 years. I still remember parts of that game like it was yesterday.



Edit: Oh, and I apparently deleted Chaos' list of meme's. Maybe he still has it? I remember orinocho something or other as another one. Don't think that one has been invoked in at least 3 years.
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Re: OO WW - Theories/Concepts/Myths/Legends

Post by Scoop20906 »

stessier wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote: Other memes that come to mind:
  • poking the innocents
  • Bakhshot
  • being me
  • "back to basics"
  • "a Lars-style game"
  • ...
While looking for the list of memes, came across the exact post that started created this one:

Bakhshot

Still cracks me up 3 years later. :lol: And makes me shudder that it's been 3 years. I still remember parts of that game like it was yesterday.



Edit: Oh, and I apparently deleted Chaos' list of meme's. Maybe he still has it? I remember orinocho something or other as another one. Don't think that one has been invoked in at least 3 years.
I thought Lar's write up of the Bakhshot was awesome as well.

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