[2]A Walk in Wolf Woods - Game Over

[Semaj]

As for the misses, the final miss is always that way. One bad vote on the last day and the remaining bad guys pile on. Even if it is down to three people it is the same story. The village had the traditional three misses.

Yes, but in a game of 19 players the number of game days are higher - therefore, there should be proportionally more misses allowed (since more "hits" are required to win).

Its supposed to be nto quite 3 misses and game over, esp when you got 7 friggin evil guys, 2 of whom feel like misses to the good guys.

Ima make a game for you
30 players, 19 humans, 11 wolves..

thats 3 misses

that seem fair?

[Isgrimnur]

What you're missing is the apex predator/prey relationship. Once all the humans are dead, the werewolves no longer have food stock and will die out.

My off-the-top brainstorming should allow for a 50% hit rate to be just enough for humanity to win. I, of course an mot even remotely qualified as a WW expert to be makign a statement like that.

[ChrisGrenard]

What you're missing is the apex predator/prey relationship. Once all the humans are dead, the werewolves no longer have food stock and will die out.

My off-the-top brainstorming should allow for a 50% hit rate to be just enough for humanity to win. I, of course an mot even remotely qualified as a WW expert to be makign a statement like that.

I may not be an expert on werewolves, but I did stay at a Frankenstein Inn last night.

[Remus West]

As for the misses, the final miss is always that way. One bad vote on the last day and the remaining bad guys pile on. Even if it is down to three people it is the same story. The village had the traditional three misses.

Yes, but in a game of 19 players the number of game days are higher - therefore, there should be proportionally more misses allowed (since more "hits" are required to win).

Its supposed to be nto quite 3 misses and game over, esp when you got 7 friggin evil guys, 2 of whom feel like misses to the good guys.

Ima make a game for you
30 players, 19 humans, 11 wolves..

thats 3 misses

that seem fair?

Hey, I've admitted that the Evil team was over powered but yes, the 19/11 is fair for the three strike rule. Consider that in trade for needing to hit more often you gain a much greater chance to hit. Same is true for the Seer. Instead of looking for the needle in the haystack they have a much bigger pool to aim at.

[msteelers]

I don't know about the witch being blocked from the wolf forums. The power would be really hard to properly use if she can't coordinate with the wolves. Maybe make it so that it can only be used once per game, but still have access to the wolf forums?

[Remus West]

I don't know about the witch being blocked from the wolf forums. The power would be really hard to properly use if she can't coordinate with the wolves. Maybe make it so that it can only be used once per game, but still have access to the wolf forums?

For the Witch to use it effectively they would need to figure out who the good guys were and target them. She would be an independant force working towards the same goal.

Also, one of the fixes I thought of addresses the concerns regarding the number of strikes. I would go back to evil humans counting towards the village total rather than the wolf total.

[Semaj]

As for the misses, the final miss is always that way. One bad vote on the last day and the remaining bad guys pile on. Even if it is down to three people it is the same story. The village had the traditional three misses.

Yes, but in a game of 19 players the number of game days are higher - therefore, there should be proportionally more misses allowed (since more "hits" are required to win).

Its supposed to be nto quite 3 misses and game over, esp when you got 7 friggin evil guys, 2 of whom feel like misses to the good guys.

Ima make a game for you
30 players, 19 humans, 11 wolves..

thats 3 misses

that seem fair?

Hey, I've admitted that the Evil team was over powered but yes, the 19/11 is fair for the three strike rule. Consider that in trade for needing to hit more often you gain a much greater chance to hit. Same is true for the Seer. Instead of looking for the needle in the haystack they have a much bigger pool to aim at.

You are missing the point
You would need 11 hits and 3 misses.

Thats a shockingly difficult thing to pull off, for anyone

[theohall]

pr0ner was the Hunter and never shot anyone??

When I blocked Grund's trapper kill of Q, my plan on the night you all killed me was to protect Q again, figuring he was the obvious target, then out myself, finally end all the questions about Q, and shoot tru1cy or Grenard.

The fact that the witch had access to the wolf forum, and could curse EVERY night, made him way overpowered.

So that is why Qantaga didn't die. Been wondering that this whole game.

[stessier]

- I wondered why stessier came out and claimed Seer. However, now I see that the game was 10g/7e when he did that, so the odds were so far in their favor at that moment, I suppose they thought they would just have a little fun. It was like they were wolf pups batting their little toy villagers around for awhile.

I didn't know it was 10/7 when I did it. I thought it was 11/6. But I discussed my thinking in the spoiler forum when you get a chance to read over there.

[rshetts2]

Btw to clear the air about my self vote. If there hadn't been an active mayor I wouldn't have done it. With that in play, it gave me an opportunity to basically freeze the vote. It was my hope that some of you would look back and see how Theo wasrailroading me. it actually worked, as Redrun did just that. Of course no one listened to him and I got lynched anyway, but the idea was solid and almost worked. I understand not liking the self vote but under these rules it seemed like my best shot at survival.

[RMC]

rshetts2,

Looking back, it was a solid 'wake-up' call. I saw myself get just as locked into Theo being good, as LL saw me being a wolf.

So this was a great learning experience for me to ensure I always look back at who did what..and why..

[pr0ner]

pr0ner was the Hunter and never shot anyone??

When I blocked Grund's trapper kill of Q, my plan on the night you all killed me was to protect Q again, figuring he was the obvious target, then out myself, finally end all the questions about Q, and shoot tru1cy or Grenard.

The fact that the witch had access to the wolf forum, and could curse EVERY night, made him way overpowered.

So that is why Qantaga didn't die. Been wondering that this whole game.

When I protected Q that night, I full well expected to stop him from dying. I didn't expect to stop him from being trapped by Grund, however, while you all went off in a different direction.

By the way, the wolf forum was a bit vague on this point: why me and not Q on the night you killed me?

[Isgrimnur]

What I was thinking was the neither you nor tru1cy had been particularly active. You didn't have any feuds developed. And with Q, there was a chance that the village would off him the next day. Sow confusion in the village while fostering doubt about a supposed good powered. I've used it to good effect before before screwing it up by doubling down and trying it twice in a row.

[Chaosraven]

I think we had been holding out for the "Q as sorcerer/witch being fed umdertaker info by a Beta wolf" angle as long as we kept Not Killing him. You know, the grund angle: "why aren't they eating him?" coming down to the last day it was time to eat him. My ok for you was that you were totally Not buying that possiblity so you were no help to us. Glad we did, though, as I had no clue you were armed!

[pr0ner]

If I didn't have protection ability (that actually worked!), I wouldn't have waited so long on the shot!

When scoop was faking 'zerker after the vote was locked, I asked Remus if I could shoot scoop, but closed voting = no shot.

[Scoop20906]

I tried like heck to get theohall killed.

:Hats tips to theohall:

[theohall]

Still amazed I survived to the end. Only way that worked though was arguing to kill guys on my own side, though. Without being in the forefront of getting stessier killed and being around to get Scoop killed, I probably would not have made it.

The "wall of data" thing seems to work as a pretty good distraction. Hadn't done that before.

[Qantaga]

A few more comments:

1. rshetts2's self vote:

I understand what you were trying to do, but the ultimate act of your self-vote only harmed the village. I know you were trying to provide data and were hoping that we would latch on to theohall for railroading you. However, the truth is never that simple. For example, if the wolves would have left me alive for one more day, I could have been accused of railroading tru1cy (who turned up human). Yet, I was good and tru1cy was evil. Just because theohall led a lynch of a good player, it doesn't automatically follow that the lynch leader is bad. You did give us some good data but, as soon as redrun posted his positive analysis of you, you should have withdrawn your self-vote at that moment. I wasn't going to vote for you... redrun was proclaiming your innocence... proner had removed his vote and may even have withheld recasting it, if you would have removed the self-vote and explained it... you knew you were good. We could have possibly stopped the train against you and moved to a better wolf candidate, but just the fact of your self-vote leads good players (like proner presumably and certainly myself) to think that there's no way a good player would ever self-vote and think you evil just by the very nature of your self-vote.

I will go on record now as saying that I wish self-voting would be against the rules in future games. The only exception would be that a wolf could self-vote as the final vote of a lynch (to go berserk or to protect his teammates), but could not self-vote until the killing blow. As a matter of fact, it is very likely that I will henceforth automatically vote to lynch a self-voter just because I see no reason for a good villager to do so.

2. pr0ner/Grund

So, proner protected me from Grund trapping me? I would never have guessed that in a million years. The idea that stessier and I would have set that up, at that particular time of the game (when no wolves had been revealed yet and they were in no imminent danger) seemed ludicrous to me (of course, I had certain knowledge of my truthfulness). I'm amazed that Grund still thought I was guilty after stessier turned up wolf.

Thank you pr0ner!

I'm still surprised the wolves went after pr0ner at that time. It was that silly "if Qantaga is still alive, he must be evil" theory that the evils promoted and that pr0ner refused to believe that seems to have done him in. I suppose that since the wolves knew that a scan of rshetts2 would not give away any key information, they left me alive, thus putting pro0ner's plans at nines. Otherwise, pr0ner's strategy may have paid off handsomely for us.

3. Unagi

No wonder the wolves killed Unagi. Look at this, right before LM was lynched:

Although I think we should be looking hard tomorrow at:
Chaos, Theohall, Stessier, Newcastle

*Edited for a claritfication and just because I can, now that the game is over.

[Qantaga]

Oh, and rshetts2, just to be clear, my comments above are not meant to be argumentative or a condemnation of what you did, just my perspective of any self-vote.

[Qantaga]

After 56 pages, I find myself still compulsively checking in to see how the game is progressing, only to find that it's over.

[rshetts2]

It's all good Qan. I just wanted to let people know the self vote was not out of frustration but an actual strategy. All in all it was a fun game. I do wish I had survived a few more day as through the whole back and forth with Theo I had figured him as a wolf and Chris G was my 2nd Target. Chaosraven was 3rd on my radar mainly because of his disappearing act. Of course #2 and 3 may have changed but if I had lived I was going to go full out to see Theo swing the 1st shot I had. I would tell Theo well played right now but honestly, I still am thinking of lynching him.

[theohall]

It's all good Qan. I just wanted to let people know the self vote was not out of frustration but an actual strategy. All in all it was a fun game. I do wish I had survived a few more day as through the whole back and forth with Theo I had figured him as a wolf and Chris G was my 2nd Target. Chaosraven was 3rd on my radar mainly because of his disappearing act. Of course #2 and 3 may have changed but if I had lived I was going to go full out to see Theo swing the 1st shot I had. I would tell Theo well played right now but honestly, I still am thinking of lynching him.

[Isgrimnur]

I don't know whether to be proud that I stayed under everyone's radar for so long or bothered that no one paid any attention to me.

[Scoop20906]

I have to agree with everyone on this. The evil team was *vastly* overpowered. I can't believe tru1cy was evil as well, that's an "I'll be damned" moment there.

So here's some insider info about Scoop and Stessier's deaths for you.

With Scoop, we agreed in the wolf forum that we wanted the existence of a witch to not be a "100% positive" sort of thing. We'd routinely use the power to block and kill a person on the same night. Only rarely did it get used elsewhere.

One time, for whatever reason, I chose to block Scoop so that no villager would be sure that I existed. Scoop saw this and just *ran* with it, before I could yell, "NO! NO YOU FOOL! YOU JUST OUTED AS EITHER SPECIAL OR A WOLF!" And so there you have it, seppuku number one.

Sorry about that, CG. Yeah, that was a dumb move. Luckily I played the entire game as if I was the actually a zerker so any info I left behind lead no where but yeah, one of my dumbest move. Not dumbest tho. LOL

[Grundbegriff]

I'm amazed that Grund still thought I was guilty after stessier turned up wolf.

It's because that's the sort of thing I would contrive (and have actively discussed with fellow wolves in other games). It seemed to me that you and stessier might be the sort of combo who could try to pull it off. Sometimes the simpler explanation (here, that stessier's play was a simple blunder) is the correct one. But I had trouble buying the simpler explanation.

Had I decided to gamble on your goodness, I would've trapped theohall. Alas!

[theohall]

Had I decided to gamble on your goodness, I would've trapped theohall. Alas!

Which is why I lobbied in the Wolf forum to kill you.

Actually the 2nd and 3rd wolf kills were both folks who had named correctly three wolves - Unagi and you. Really shocked no one acted on either of the lists you both generated just before being killed. Some folks commented "no way the wolves would be that obvious" which is what I was counting on when suggesting wolf night targets.

[Chaosraven]

3. Unagi

No wonder the wolves killed Unagi. Look at this, right before LM was lynched:

Although I think we should be looking hard tomorrow at:
Chaos, Theohall, Stessier, Newcastle

In the forum, we thought he might be the Seer based on his insisting I was a Wolf. Not merely evil, but a Wolf. Over and over.

Well, and his ChaosraveN-1 comment. No way I was going to let him live after that.

[Semaj]

Had I decided to gamble on your goodness, I would've trapped theohall. Alas!

Which is why I lobbied in the Wolf forum to kill you.

Actually the 2nd and 3rd wolf kills were both folks who had named correctly three wolves - Unagi and you. Really shocked no one acted on either of the lists you both generated just before being killed. Some folks commented "no way the wolves would be that obvious" which is what I was counting on when suggesting wolf night targets.

i named 3 of 4 wolves early on, no one seemed to notice or care

[RMC]

Yeah... I got hung up on the fact that Theo seemed to passionate, and why would a wolf do that..

I had advocated looking at quiet people but did not follow through with it. And it seemed every time I posted things and it got slow, LL(as well as a few others you wolves you) would point at me and cry Wolf.

So I thought staying out of it was the only way to not get lynched. But I got lynched anyway.

Had fun..

[Qantaga]

Actually the 2nd and 3rd wolf kills were both folks who had named correctly three wolves - Unagi and you. Really shocked no one acted on either of the lists you both generated just before being killed. Some folks commented "no way the wolves would be that obvious" which is what I was counting on when suggesting wolf night targets.

I do want to say something about this. I have heard several people (not just theo) say that someone should have acted on Unagi's list, Grund's list, and the rshetts2 train. However, even in the absence of that, the village performed very well with their lynches.

1. LM was a shot in the dark, compounded by his "Yay Team" post.

2. After Unagi's suspect list, we killed a stessier Wolf.

3. After Grund's suspect list, we killed a Scoop Wolf.

4. The only real bobble was rshetts2, but that was compounded by his self-vote, two evil votes, and Lagom's secret vote (when majority was only 6)

5. After the rshetts2 train, we killed a tru1cy Sorceror.

6. The last vote was fairly hopeless as all it required was 1 innocent vote and a wolf pile.

So, I do think the village performed admirably in their lynches, regardless of the information we used or ignored.

[Semaj]

so anyways

We need a nickname for lagom..

Lagomicide is taken..

[redrun]

An interesting game. I've not had time to go find the spoiler forum yet, but a couple of quick notes:

Losing the seer on turn before day one is always hard.

After Unagi died, I read through most of the list and pulled out his list of wolves as the reason the he died. I should have kept with it. The biggest reaction from the village was Grund's saying that it was "Ludicrous". I should have kept with it when Pr0ner died and done the same.

Isgrimner was on my radar early due to the "the Psychic should come out" message. Very late in the game I noticed he'd been coasting for the most of the game, but it was too late.

Theohall just kept going back and forth between evil and less evil. I'm just going to have to start trusting my read on him.

I'll try to settle down a bit my next game, but really, I think I just need to sit on my hands on day one, then start pushing for lynches. I was sure of CG and Chaos fairly early on, then lost sight of both of them during the whole Grund thing. I was sure Grund was evil, and that changed a lot of patterns in the play. My bad.

However, I also spent way too much of the game worried about a combo of LL, Qantaga, and semaj. I reread the zerker rules three times a week to be sure that LL couldn't have been turned. Qantaga, I finally went through his come out and Stessier's response and decided that the time in between was too short for it to be a planned ploy. But when Qantaga said that Grund was the trapper I was in shock. Semaj kept popping in to say "watch for the quiet ones".

In a game where paranoia is the standard, this one, with the unknown powers/players, pushed it to the max.

[Qantaga]

Had I decided to gamble on your goodness, I would've trapped theohall. Alas!

Ah... so close. That would have been sweet. But, I do understand your choice now.

But when Qantaga said that Grund was the trapper I was in shock.

I was in shock, too, when Remus sent the results of my scan of Grund. Unfortunately, I concluded that Grund must have chosen not to use his power that night (maybe hoping to talk his way out of a lynch the next day and use it on a smaller player pool to increase his odds of hitting an evil). I did not guess that there was a Hunter/Guardian in play and that the trapped attempt had been thwarted.

Again, thank you pr0ner!

[tru1cy]

Btw, my self vote was because I was Evil and frustrated from not being able to work with my team. I had CR pegged as wolf and honestly considered Qantaga a wolf hence my constant pressure on him I was hoping for scan.



Btw, I never self vote if I am good. Qantaga I understand you don't like the play but it is a viable move, but just voting off a person for self voting will hurt the good team in the long run. Just my opinion, but play as you please

[Qantaga]

Btw, I never self vote if I am good. Qantaga I understand you don't like the play but it is a viable move, but just voting off a person for self voting will hurt the good team in the long run. Just my opinion, but play as you please

First off tru1cy, it's all good with you and with rshetts2. I get frustrated with the self-vote in game, but that's my own personal demon to bear.

In looking at the self-vote, you yourself even say that you never self vote if you're good. I just can't imagine a scenario where a good player self-voting helps the good team. As we all know, information in these games (that the self-voter may think they're providing to the village) can be seen in any light, depending on who's looking at it. I see it as a viable play for a bad guy, but not for a good guy. It gives the wolves an extra vote to reduce the good team and the good team already has enough of a hill to climb. It also makes me immediately think that the self-voter is evil because the self-vote only helps the good team if the self-voter is evil, so I am less likely to try to defend that person (as I might have done with rshetts2 had he not self-voted).

I doubt I will automatically vote on someone just because of the self-vote in future games, but I will continue to be incredibly frustrated by it, especially if the self-voter turns up good.

[Semaj]

in this case self voting kills a team.

Between Lagoms 1 vote - 2, and a self vote, you lose valuable voting info

[Scoop20906]

This game I was absolutely terrified to be a wolf. With everyone not knowing the roles in the game, it made it very difficult to divorce myself from the information we had in the wolf forum and not let it bleed out in one of my posts.

Thats why it was almost a blessed relief that I outed myself over something fairly simple and I should have realized myself.

I'm really not good with deception. Wide eyed villager is my preferred role.