Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:44 am

The Empire was borked from the get go. Once Mara was turned we was screwed. Good game, but the rules need to be tweaked. Btw, my guess about Remus was correct

PLW · Post by **PLW** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:01 am

I've enjoyed following this one. I think I'll sign up next time.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:03 am

Damn, I was coming in this morning ready to blow the grand conspiracy open, I knew that bastard Remus was up to something, the night kills were coming up all wrong, and I had a bad feeling about Isgrimnur but never acted on it. Theo I had no read on...

Nice game guys.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:04 am

tru1cy wrote:The Empire was borked from the get go. Once Mara was turned we was screwed. Good game, but the rules need to be tweaked. Btw, my guess about Remus was correct

This. A near perfect game from the empire couldn't save anything and seemed obvious to me once I read the rules. Unagi kicked ass and Trig kept us going even though we nearly evenly matched the whole time while dealing with non players and that was awesome. Combined they at least gave an illusion that they game was possible to win.

It was more than guess with Remus. None of the plays made sense to me if Remus wasn't the convert but there was no way anyone was going to be convinced. The only question was El Guapo also a rebel.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:22 am

I enjoyed my one day trying valiantly to save my Emperor. I then spent my night protecting the guy most out for his blood - and died for the effort. Stoopid Rebels not killing the most likely target.

Thanks for running this bb2112! Excellent first effort!

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:35 am

LordMortis wrote:
tru1cy wrote:The Empire was borked from the get go. Once Mara was turned we was screwed. Good game, but the rules need to be tweaked. Btw, my guess about Remus was correct
This. A near perfect game from the empire couldn't save anything and seemed obvious to me once I read the rules. Unagi kicked ass and Trig kept us going even though we nearly evenly matched the whole time while dealing with non players and that was awesome. Combined they at least gave an illusion that they game was possible to win.

It was more than guess with Remus. None of the plays made sense to me if Remus wasn't the convert but there was no way anyone was going to be convinced. The only question was El Guapo also a rebel.

Yeah, gotta give credit to you on that. FWIW yesterday evening I was coming around to the "Remus as turned Mara Jade" theory, since otherwise the night kill of you would've made no sense.

So yes, the rebels were a tad overpowered. But still lots of fun, and a good time for what was (almost) my first game. I'm psyched I got to use my Jabba ability!

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:44 am

I'm always filled with self doubt and I was going to suggest Remus as converted, but didn't. Damn me.
Unagi did ok, but ultimately to win the game you had to play strong the whole way due to the rules set and thats what irritated me. I knew we were going off track and true it is easier to say when I knew my alignment, but you had to play a strong game the whole way through.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:47 am

Mr Bubbles wrote:you had to play a strong game the whole way through.

We lost with 2 misses out of 7 lynches. I would argue we played strong.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:02 am

The trick with Remus is that he kept playing pretty normal, kept joining in the right rebel lynches...so while the Mara thing was possible, I just didn't see any evidence for it. I think the thing was that since we needed essentially a perfect record to win, Remus could just join in the party until we eventually missed.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:11 am

It was nice to fly under the radar and not really be anyone's target.

Kudos on the setting and writeups bb2112. Will definitely sign up for the next one you run.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:12 am

I think it is interesting to note that the Rebels didn't know who I was (nor do I think they knew who Lassr was). They actually had to be a little careful on what roles they threw out there.

I thought Remus' scans were a little questionable. I get not worrying about spoofing, but I still would have expected some Rebel scans just to see what powers were gone.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:13 am

I'm racing to a meeting and will post more comments later, but quickly:

- Excellent game bb2112. I loved the setting, the story and lore of your write-ups, and all of the roles that you had as possibilities. As noted, the Rebels were overpowered, but you ran a great game with a new rule set and I can see it being a fantastic recurring game. Thank you for you excellent moderation in this one.

- Yay Rebels! Now, the universe is a much better place for us all.

- I'll post a bit more about the R2D2 kill vote later, but needless to say that 5 minute window to kill the Emperor was very stressful (and quite fun).

- Unagi, what did you see to force choke a poor droid? Thankfully, it came after I was powerless, but a big tip of the cap to you on IDing me.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:15 am

coopasonic wrote:
Mr Bubbles wrote:you had to play a strong game the whole way through.
We lost with 2 misses out of 7 lynches. I would argue we played strong.

In retrospect not strong enough

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:17 am

Well, I think we can all agree - this was a mighty hard game for the Rebels to do anything but win.
I'm sure that was a blast.

I had fun as well, bb2112, you did a great job moderating, and the game-pieces are fun... - the balancing, as you know, needs some tweaking.

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:17 am

stessier wrote:I think it is interesting to note that the Rebels didn't know who I was (nor do I think they knew who Lassr was). They actually had to be a little careful on what roles they threw out there.

stess, we did know Lassr's role. Isgrimnur scanned him the first night, so we knew by Day 2 that he was the coroner.

The irony of the first night's kill is that Unagi was on the verge of being the kill target. I suggested killing you instead, since you came out looking very good on the first day and since Unagi had some friction going with trig. We had no idea (obviously) that you were Thrawn. That was just a happy coincidence for us.

Edit: you are correct, though, that the active Rebels had no idea who you were after your death (until the game ended, they had no idea if Thrawn existed or not), since theo's scan could only be used for the current night kill or the previous day kill.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:17 am

It was indeed pretty disappointing to get to the Spoiler Lounge thinking that the Empire was in great shape to win--we had three kills at that point, including the shoot on Qantaga that should've mitigated the miss on day 1--and discover that the Empire was one miss away from losing.

Fun game and fun ruleset and I'd happily play again now that the rules tweaking has been discussed enough to give bb2112 the help we probably should've given him *before* this game started...

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:21 am

Yeah with some tweaks this one should be a fun game. I had a blast.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:22 am

Personally, I don't think I actually enjoy the "mystery list" of Good vs Evil roles, in these games...

I play these games as a bit of a 'detective' game, and well, that is illiminated for the most part when you don't really have any hard walls.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:27 am

Time to turn off my thread subscription for this thread. With the current thread title I'm getting tons of e-mails that sound like gloating. My new e-mails just looked like this:

Topic Reply Notification - Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory
Topic Reply Notification - Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory
Topic Reply Notification - Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory
Topic Reply Notification - Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory
Topic Reply Notification - Star Wars WW - Game Over - Rebel Victory

I get it, I get it, the rebels won - stop rubbing it in.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:29 am

Unagi - why did you never scan Grund? We should always scan Grund with all of our scanners!!!

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:35 am

i never understood why people seem to think 3 misses is the ideal amount for a good game.

If you have 8 bad guys, you have to be right 8 times and wrong 3... seems pretty piss poor for the good guys.

Am i missing something on how 3 is the magic number for huge games?

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:36 am

coopasonic wrote:
Mr Bubbles wrote:you had to play a strong game the whole way through.
We lost with 2 misses out of 7 lynches. I would argue we played strong.

You did! The Imperials played near perfect. The problem is so did the Rebels. It was still imbalanced though. In order for the Imperials to win, the Rebels would have had to turn in a subpar effort while the Imperials played near perfect.

Imperials
Positives:
1. Lynched 4 Rebels
2. Unagi Killed 1 Rebel
3. El Guapo Identified 1 Rebel
4. Only had 2 1/2 misses (Lando counts as a half miss)

Negatives:
1. Outed and Lynched Emperor/Seer Day 1
2. Did not covert Mara

Rebels
Positives:
1. Lynched Emperor/Seer Day 1
2. Killed Grand Admiral Thrawn/Protector Night 1
3. Converted Mara
4. Mara Got to Use her Shot for the Rebels

Negatives:
? I can't really find one other than players were pretty suspicious of most of the Rebel crew and they got themselves lynched regularly.

Stupid Chance
1. Empire lost it's 2 most powerful people Day and Night 1. Leaving their side drastically impaired.
2. Unagi, although brilliantly killed a Rebel, did not kill Skywalker, Karrde, Lando or Mara all of which would have prevented bad things from happening
3. El Guapo, although brilliantly found a Rebel, did not find Skywalker, Karrde, Lando or Mara all of which could have prevented bad things from happening

It was stupid chance that the most powerful Imperials were killed right off the bat and that the stronger Rebels lasted until late in the game. That being said, there should have been 1 to 2 less Rebels. I created a 4 miss game without powers, that switched to a 3 miss with the Mara conversion, then went to a 2 1/2 miss with the Lando factor. The Unagi and Mara kill offset, but Unagi had to take the chance to nail a Rebel, where Mara knew she was targeting an Imperial.

Sorry guys, I feel bad. I hope you had fun anyway and didn't consider it a total waste of time. I will do better next time.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:41 am

bb2112 wrote:Sorry guys, I feel bad. I hope you had fun anyway and didn't consider it a total waste of time. I will do better next time.

No reason to feel bad. It was a good game with great flavor that just needs some tweaking. We just expect the balance to be perfect next time, and there better be a next time.

If people didn't like the game they wouldn't waste their time critiquing it. They bitch because they care.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:47 am

coopasonic wrote:
bb2112 wrote:Sorry guys, I feel bad.
No reason to feel bad. It was a good game with great flavor that just needs some tweaking.

+1

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:53 am

Yeah, same here. Tons of fun. Of course the balance needs tweaking, but it's a first game, and it was a lot of fun at that.

My only other nit is that I think a couple powers should be tweaked to be more consistently useful rather than contingent. I'm psyched that I got to use my Jabba power, but that was pretty fluky (I mean, it's not even certain that Han will be in the game). Similar with Boba Fett. I'd say change their powers to something like Jabba's being "scan for Han, with the results being Han / no Han".

And maybe a fixed line-up like Unagi suggests (or at least, that you know when at the start which powers are in the game).

But yeah, great time.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:54 am

Semaj wrote:Am i missing something on how 3 is the magic number for huge games?

Talk to the guy who invented baseball.

If you have 8 bad guys, you have to be right 8 times and wrong 3... seems pretty piss poor for the good guys.

Not really. What odds do the good guys have of hitting a bad guy? I think the ratio the game was founded on was something like 3.4 good guys for every bad guy. So you have a 33% chance of hitting a wolf. If you can't hit a Bad Guy in you statistical 3 chances, you're out of luck. Add in Specials and Provable Specials, thereby shrinking your search pool even more, and your odds can climb pretty quickly. 3 chances is pretty fair.

Edit To Expound a bit more:

I'm sorry, I was only thinking of the 13 player standard game with a standard opening Night Kill.

Opening - 3 Wolves - 12 players - 25% chance
Lynch/Kill - 3 wolves - 10 players - 33% chance
Lynch/Kill - 3 wolves - 8 players - 38.75% chance
Lynch/Kill - Game Over

Yeah, bigger standard games with more Wolves mean more misses. But if you add in proveable roles, things should change (ie., they should be removed from the lynch pool when calculating things). It gets tricky.

There is thisthread and this thread and this calculator if you want to read more.

Disclaimer: I haven't played much with the calculator and there is some discussion on how good it is.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:55 am

stessier wrote:Unagi - why did you never scan Grund? We should always scan Grund with all of our scanners!!!

On the very last night I switched my scan 3 times.

Theohall, grund, and then I landed on KK.

Meh, I clearly SHOULD HAVE scanned him, but Luke could have been anyone.

I was targeting the people I thought were Rebels... so, that's what lead to scans of Newcastle and RMC.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:05 am

I would say that the way Scoop outed himself and the way the R2 vote thing that took Chaos down was a slight misplay. If the game was more balanced--or if Mara isn't scanned or in-game, that could've been fatal.

The three votes on Unagi when Chaos was lynched were very telling--tru1cy, theohall, and Isgrimnur. I figured 2 of 3 were rebels (and knew Isgrimnur was one of them), and although tru1cy started as my lead suspect, his play didn't match his style if he was a Rebel, and thus by definition powered. By the end of Day 2, theohall, RMC, and Isgrimnur I had made as Rebels.

Sadly, the last big misplay for the Empire was one we had no control over. Hard for us in the spoiler lounge to argue against lynching Kenetickid. When he stopped playing, he had to be tested at some point. Oh well.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:15 am

Thanks for running the game, bb. I had fun.

I'd say that the Vader kill and Lando's power kind of offset things and make a good balance. The Mara conversion is an idea I like. I think one fewer rebels or something to offset the power like a turn clock before she's off limits to conversion...

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:16 am

triggercut wrote:I would say that the way Scoop outed himself and the way the R2 vote thing that took Chaos down was a slight misplay. If the game was more balanced--or if Mara isn't scanned or in-game, that could've been fatal.

The three votes on Unagi when Chaos was lynched were very telling--tru1cy, theohall, and Isgrimnur. I figured 2 of 3 were rebels (and knew Isgrimnur was one of them), and although tru1cy started as my lead suspect, his play didn't match his style if he was a Rebel, and thus by definition powered. By the end of Day 2, theohall, RMC, and Isgrimnur I had made as Rebels.

Sadly, the last big misplay for the Empire was one we had no control over. Hard for us in the spoiler lounge to argue against lynching Kenetickid. When he stopped playing, he had to be tested at some point. Oh well.

It's weird how going back day one at the end made Izzy stick out like a sore thumb and also had set off my Theo radar with his total back and forth on day one and called attention to his non confrontational play the entire game. However, I was already blinded by Bubbles at that point. Also weird was how Coop looked guilty on day one to me and looked the most innocent in the reread. Finally, it was funny that they only reason I went back to read day one was because Remus suggested it. But to me it's all guess work and nothing more.

I had Remus made, but there was no way to prove it and no way to get anyone to agree, so I figured the game was over no matter how it got sliced anyway.

Early in the game, I had nothing and nothing more than dread for a game that looked like it could literally be over with a day two miss. I was totally blown away by the team you and Unagi made. I didn't understand the method but I was fascinated enough with the results that I actually took an interest in the game.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:34 am

Semaj wrote:uhg....

I had theo...

Remus was confusing the piss out of me

BTW how the hell does the empire has a chance in hell of winning this?

Don't lynch the Emperor the first day before he can scan the guy who spent the entire first day hinting he was Mara Jade?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:51 am

Meh. You asked and I answered.

Chaosraven wrote:Specials coming out isn't something to discourage. That's when the wolves get the opportunity to Spoof First or Contest Second, or Stay Hidden in the Masses.

Something to remember is that Standard WW Wolves have only 2 Abilities. (1)They know who each other are, (2)They are allowed to kill at Night without Majority Vote.
In the forum games, they are generally given the added ability to actively discuss, with lengthy forums, the plans and tactics as the game progresses.

As you add abilities, you look for a balance between Good and Evil.

Chaosraven wrote:Depends on how many chances you want to give the Village to miss for how many bad. Bad + Good Special should not exceed the normals (to give Wolves a place to hide). So it depends on how many players you get.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:53 am

I knew I should have stuck with my suspicions of Remus. He just gave me the creeps. I find that I'm more often right when I go with my first impression, but I always second guess myself.

edit: and we should have also analyzed why Remus got silenced and stayed in game more.

First rule of Wolf Club: Always kill Remus.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:54 am

Remus West wrote:
Semaj wrote:uhg....

I had theo...

Remus was confusing the piss out of me

BTW how the hell does the empire has a chance in hell of winning this?
Don't lynch the Emperor the first day before he can scan the guy who spent the entire first day hinting he was Mara Jade?

Sure, "don't lynch the Emperor" seems like a sounds strategy, but hindsight is 20/20.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:59 am

El Guapo wrote:Sure, "don't lynch the Emperor" seems like a sounds strategy, but hindsight is 20/20.

I found it particularly funny since there was this:

Emperor’s Royal Guard: You guys all look really cool. Just don’t kill the Emperor. That would be tacky and it will be really difficult to acquire future employment with that on your resume. “Yeah, we did a great job protecting the old guy right up until we all got together, took out our blasters, and blasted the crap out of the geezer.” Not cool. However, not to fret too much, you will still win if the Emperor is dead as long as you eliminate the rebel menace. If you can’t even manage to do that, then don’t worry about future employment. Everyone else is just collateral damage, therefore, who cares.

And then there was my surprise when Scoop claimed Emperor since that was 2 games in a row we had done that - only to learn later it was really Chaos we were doing it to. What a Day 1!

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:20 pm

There's a chart for standard Mafia. 9 players yields 1 seer, 2 wolves, 6 townies. 11 players yields 1 seer, 3 wolves, 7 townies. 19 players yields 1 seer, 5 wolves, 13 townies. 21 players yields 1 seer, 6 wolves, 14 townies. Then you add other roles. But as I noted, it depends how many misses you allow the Village. FWIW, the Rebels had amazing luck to root out the Seer, kill the Protector, and find the Priest all in the first day/night cycle.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:53 pm

I thought it was a fun game...and i almost think that the rebels were underpowered...where were our lasers? Ok kidding there.

I really think the rebels had a good streak of good fortune that turned that advantage into a strong momentum to victory. I mean the rebels started off almost perfectly....getting the empires seer lynched...killing their protector (although unknown to them) and then identifying their coroner.

I would think that if we had only hit 1 or even 2 of those roles and not all three....the game would have been very much different.

I think there should have been 2 vanilla rebels...i think 6-7 is a good number of wolves for 21 participants. The rebels were probably a bit overpowered I'd say. But not a lot. Definitely some.

We also had several handicaps hit us if you think bout it. Scoop being nailed on day 1 for really no good reason...and really just being targeted for being scoop....we knew that Quantaga would be targeted by folks early, so losing him was no surprise (at least to me). We also had really no participation from Grund...so while you had KK who said zilch...we had grund who said zilch.

My main concern was getting Grund to live long enough to find Mara. I figured he had a 3 day lifespan. But my main goal was to try to draw a lot of attention my way to possibly draw attention away from Grund. Which I think i did well enough.

And you know how hard it is to keep a lynch train focused on you and not go off the beaten path to question why someone was stunned? I desired an emmy for that...nah...an oscar!

And nice ruleset BB...was fun to play.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:54 pm

PLW wrote:I've enjoyed following this one. I think I'll sign up next time.

go for it....never gets old to lynch the new guy

plw

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:58 pm

I kept wondering how Remus would not look suspicious after claiming my Tarkin role and then not being the night kill. I think the fact that they also let El Guapo live helped and made it look like they were eliminating specials they had found that had not been outed. I think if they had killed El Guapo but let Remus live it would have raised a huge red flag.

Everyone kept wanting to believe that Remus could be Mara Jade but could never fully committed to it. Yeah, what where the odds, someone asked. Well 100% in this game. Eliminate everything that is impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, is possible.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:22 pm

I still have no clue as to what triggercut was talking about on day 1 when he decided Scoop had to be Empire.

As for Scoop getting outed, it wasn't just for being Scoop. The initial run up on him was for being Scoop. The thing that made me so certain we had a Rebel was that so many folks wanted nothing to do with voting for him.