OOWL S01 M04 - Game Over

[Grundbegriff]

Die, Scum!

 Remus Beast 
 

[Newcastle]

 Newcastle 
 

I don't want this to get in the way of his modding duties.

 remus west 
 



so that's how you repay my kindness of modding by trying to knock me out of a game

[Newcastle]

come on scoops ghost...someone swoop in here and kill off remus, so he can be the quickest lynch! with a vote on himself to boot!

[Lassr]

so tempting but also too quick.

I'm contemplating Isgrimnur for being a wolf in the other game and winning; or maybe theohall for killing me in that game before I could speak.

[theohall]

so tempting but also too quick.

I'm contemplating Isgrimnur for being a wolf in the other game and winning; or maybe theohall for killing me in that game before I could speak.

As to Remus West, Self-votes are for GT and should not be tolerated here.

[Isgrimnur]

I'm contemplating Isgrimnur for being a wolf in the other game and winning; or maybe theohall for killing me in that game before I could speak.

So meta. And I made sure to keep your modding duties short and sweet.

Oh, that's right, I need to repay you for those lovely flavor texts.

 Lassr 
 

[Remus West]

so tempting but also too quick.

I'm contemplating Isgrimnur for being a wolf in the other game and winning; or maybe theohall for killing me in that game before I could speak.

As to Remus West, Self-votes are for GT and should not be tolerated here.

O.k.
 Withdraw Remus West 
 


Although I have to wonder why those who checked in after I voted for myself did not vote for me too.

 Lassr 
 

[Qantaga]

Ugh.

Have I mentioned how much I hate the self-vote?

The only time I recall it being an issue here, in my time in the OO games, is Walk in Wolf Woods when rshetts2 and tru1cy did it. rhetts2 did it out of frustration (understandably at the time, although I did beg him to withdraw his self-vote, to no avail). I then chastised tru1cy when he did it and, at first glance, it appeared that he was an innocent doing it, but at game's end, he turned out to be the Sorceror, searching for his evil brethren.

It happens with much more frequency in GT games.

I can personally see no valid reason for a good villager to self vote. I'm sure Remus would say that he is doing it to gather data and expose evil doers, but that is a bunch of hooey around here. We're all expericienced enough that wolves might be on the vote/off the vote/on a train/off a train/voting believing someone is innocent/voting knowing someone is innocent or guilty/defending a partner/etc.

However, in essence, the self-vote by an innocent is the same as giving the woves a proxy vote, because it gives them one less vote needed to kill off a good villager.

The only person who could possibly benefit from a self-vote is a wolf.

I will always be compelled to vote against anyone who self-votes.

 Remus West 
 


I see that Remus has now withdrawn his self-vote, while I was composing this post, but my vote will remain.

[Lassr]

Oh, that's right, I need to repay you for those lovely flavor texts.

 Lassr 
 

you can type! I'm soooo proud of you Issy.

[Remus West]

So, the only person that benefits from a self vote is a wolf? What a load of hooey. A wolf self voting has simply made it that much easier for the village to lynch him since the reality is that he has reduced the number of players that need to come after him by 1. If a villager self voting is giving the wolves a proxy vote then a wolf self voting is giving the village a proxy vote. Be careful with that sword you are waving around, it cuts both ways.

 Qantaga 
 

[Remus West]

Oh, that's right, I need to repay you for those lovely flavor texts.

 Lassr 
 

you can type! I'm soooo proud of you Issy.

I just hope he washed his hands after cleaning himself up. Otherwise that keyboard is going to be...unsavory.

[Lassr]

so tempting but also too quick.

I'm contemplating Isgrimnur for being a wolf in the other game and winning; or maybe theohall for killing me in that game before I could speak.

As to Remus West, Self-votes are for GT and should not be tolerated here.

the self vote was a bit odd; I was very tempted to vote for him because of it. But I didn't want to kill him off that quick!

[Newcastle]

sooooo boring lassr......

 mcnutt 
 



welcome back!

[Qantaga]

So, the only person that benefits from a self vote is a wolf? What a load of hooey. A wolf self voting has simply made it that much easier for the village to lynch him since the reality is that he has reduced the number of players that need to come after him by 1. If a villager self voting is giving the wolves a proxy vote then a wolf self voting is giving the village a proxy vote. Be careful with that sword you are waving around, it cuts both ways.

Remus, you know better than that.

The self vote hurts either faction. In that limited sense, you are correct.

However, the reason that the self-vote only benefits a wolf, is that a wolf tries to use it as, "See, I must be good because a wolf would never self vote" in an effort to fool villagers into believing that a wolf would have a better sense of self preservation.

A villager casting a self vote does not have the ability to deceive the wolves, because the wolves already know the villager is good.

The self vote's only redeeming factor is as a smoke screen. But, the smoke screen option is only available to wolves.

[Lassr]

The few times I have self voted as a villager was when I thought I was being more of a distraction to the village than help due to everyone's belief that I was a wolf. Obviously that does not apply here with Remus so that's why I found it odd. If he is a villager what is he trying to prove?

[Remus West]

So, the only person that benefits from a self vote is a wolf? What a load of hooey. A wolf self voting has simply made it that much easier for the village to lynch him since the reality is that he has reduced the number of players that need to come after him by 1. If a villager self voting is giving the wolves a proxy vote then a wolf self voting is giving the village a proxy vote. Be careful with that sword you are waving around, it cuts both ways.

Remus, you know better than that.

The self vote hurts either faction. In that limited sense, you are correct.

However, the reason that the self-vote only benefits a wolf, is that a wolf tries to use it as, "See, I must be good because a wolf would never self vote" in an effort to fool villagers into believing that a wolf would have a better sense of self preservation.

A villager casting a self vote does not have the ability to deceive the wolves, because the wolves already know the villager is good.

The self vote's only redeeming factor is as a smoke screen. But, the smoke screen option is only available to wolves.

You are ascribing a implication I never once claimed. I have not said my self vote made me good. I pointed out the error in your argument regarding the idea of "proxy" votes. You can not have it used as a wolf-proxy at the same time as having it used as a smoke screen. The concept of it being a wolf-proxy vote implies the self voter gets killed - else it doesn't serve as much of a proxy now does it? The concept of it being used as a smoke screen implies the self voter lives - else it doesn't make a very good screen now does it?. You're cutting your finger with that sword.

[Remus West]

If he is a villager what is he trying to prove?

It proves nothing at all. Proving something wasn't the idea.

[Qantaga]

You are ascribing a implication I never once claimed. I have not said my self vote made me good. I pointed out the error in your argument regarding the idea of "proxy" votes. You can not have it used as a wolf-proxy at the same time as having it used as a smoke screen. The concept of it being a wolf-proxy vote implies the self voter gets killed - else it doesn't serve as much of a proxy now does it? The concept of it being used as a smoke screen implies the self voter lives - else it doesn't make a very good screen now does it?. You're cutting your finger with that sword.

I find it interesting that you seem fixated on the proxy aspect, which is one part of my whole belief that the self vote does not benefit the good of the village.

Perhaps you'll move past that and enlighten me how a self vote by a good villager helps the cause of the village.

If you think it's because of the "data" and voting/non-voting choices made by players subsequent to the self-vote, I would imagine that this group of players is quite capable of hiding/forcing votes in any possible pattern, thus negating the "data" aspect.

If there's another reason that you think the self-vote by a good villager helps the village, I'm all ears.

[stessier]

Day 1 Vote Count

• Remus acc Newcastle (1)
• theo acc Remus (1)
  Remus wd Newcastle (0)
  Remus acc Remus (2)
• Grund acc Remus (3)
  Newcastle acc Remus (4)
• Isgrimnur acc Lassr (1)
  Remus wd Remus (3)
  Remus acc Lassr (2)
• Qantaga acc Remus (4)
  Remus wd Lassr (1)
• Remus acc Qantaga (1)
  Newcastle wd Remus (3)
• Newcastle acc McNutt (1)

Votes needed for a Lynch - 5

Against Remus (3): theohall, Grundbegriff, Qantaga
Against Lassr (1): Isgrimnur
Against Qantaga (1): Remus
Against McNutt (1): Newcastle

The first lynch must be done by Sunday, November 13 at 8pm Central Time.

Let me know if I missed anything.

[McNutt]

I have nothing to go on except the talk of self votes. Normally that would be enough for me, but it was withdrawn, so that has to be considered. However, it makes me wonder.

 Remus West 
 

[theohall]

IMO, Remus did the self-vote as a joke not expecting the reaction from those of us who completely despise the tactic. He could very well be an innocent villager.

[McNutt]

I'm aware of that and don't put much stock into it, but I honestly have very little to go on. Somebody has to die tonight and I certainly don't want it to be me.

However, it is pretty early for a kill, so I'll  withdraw Remus West 
 
just to hear some more arguments.
I'm normally not this wishy washy, but I just realized that one more vote would have sealed his doom and I don't want to go down that road just yet. Let's talk about this, people!

[Isgrimnur]

Getting ahead of yourself? Someone has to die today before the wolves kill someone tonight.

[purge]

Since, you know, my self-vote got you a night scan in a current game elsewheres. This might be meta, but it's relevant to this game and the current statement.

The self-vote also allows villagers to put themselves up to bait the wolf-pack. A death from a self-vote isn't the end of the world when it's a villager looking out for the good of the village. Sometimes it's senseless (last year I accidentally self-voted at n-1 ) however, condemning a self-vote as a means to justify a kill is giving wolves a carte blanche on anyone who self-votes.

In essence, condemning ANY strategy as a means to lynch someone is just as damaging as a self-vote.

I also had a death in the family this weekend, I wasn't expecting this game to take off let alone the two others and a bunch of overtime and GT game reviews and house repairs.

I could have contacted raven, but instead my self-vote was "If I get killed, it means the seer has a better chance of survival since it started as a day cycle and when someone dies, it's better to be a villager than a good powered person." Plus, there is a pattern to the kill which can be analyzed.

The role of the villagers is to ensure the village survives more than the individual. As a villager, I can trust that I am acting in the best interests of the village, however I cannot trust you, or any unproven.

In today's case, you've tried to use a boilerplate "SELF-LYNCH DIES!" as a means to justify the lynch.

Remus has been pretty high up on the lynch, which, I think, is a decent strategy for you to exploit.

Therefore,

 Qantaga 
 


To Remus:
You better not be a wolf -

[Qantaga]

I also had a death in the family this weekend, I wasn't expecting this game to take off let alone the two others and a bunch of overtime and GT game reviews and house repairs.

First off, purge I am very sorry to hear that there was a death in your family. You have my sincere sympathies.

As for the game (meta and otherwise):

The role of the villagers is to ensure the village survives more than the individual. As a villager, I can trust that I am acting in the best interests of the village, however I cannot trust you, or any unproven.

In today's case, you've tried to use a boilerplate "SELF-LYNCH DIES!" as a means to justify the lynch.

Remus has been pretty high up on the lynch, which, I think, is a decent strategy for you to exploit.

I do not use a boilerplate "SELF-LYNCH DIES."

I argue (strongly) against its effectiveness.

If you look back at the GT game, I voted for you because you were pushing others to vote for me, when I knew I was the Seer. Your self vote was a part of my reasoning, but not the only "boilerplate" reason.

If you look at most of the GT games where people have self-voted, you'll find that I don't immediately cast a vote on the self-voting person. I encourage them (again strongly) to pull the self vote, because it isn't helping.

If you look back at the Walk in Wolf Woods game here, I did not vote for rshetts2 when he self voted. I begged him to remove his self vote, which he did not do, and we lost a strike at the wolves because of it. When tru1cy later self voted, I did vote for him, but I had already outlined numerous reasons for suspecting tru1cy before he self voted. And, I was right. He was evil.

In this game, it is Day 1. I personally do not see the value of Remus' self-vote, especially so early in the day. It screamed to me of a wolf tactic. I understand what you are saying about drawing attention to buy the Seer a scan, but Remus did it before any good discussion had even been generated. Don't you think it's a good idea for us to generate as much talk as possible to have more data to go on in future days, rather than Remus self-sacrificing out of the gate (if he even is a villager)?

However, the main reason I voted for Remus is that I would absolutely kick myself if he made that ploy and then turned out to be a wolf anyway. As some of you are already saying, "Remus must be jokiing, a real wolf wouldn't do that," if he is a wolf, he's already bought himself a ticket deep into the game.

To characterize my (strong) dislike of the self-vote as a boilerplate that I use whenever I see a self-vote is completely incorrect. I never like the self-vote, but it is never the only reason I use to place a vote.

[purge]

If you read through the thread, the distain for self-vote may not be "boilerplate", but there sure were a bunch of people who climbed on the Kill Remus wagon. Perhaps even a couple of wolves, all with the same reasoning.

A self-vote != innocent, and as long as people know that (hell, that play has been used for YEARS), then it's simply a game move no different than any others.

A seer revealing too soon or not soon enough is another play that could damn or save the village. Lets say the seer already scanned and found one wolf - do they come out day one, or try to convince the group and then get to scan another?

It's all a risk, based on luck and skill of execution, and knowing the players.

I don't know all the players (from any recent experience, anyways) and so I'm still getting my feet wet.

Grund is . Hard to read at any point in time, both duplicitous and conniving. Then there's his faults .

Remus is good at this game, if only from experience and not actual skill. He may well be a wolf - my defense was of the self-vote tactic and not of him (hence the PS comment at the end of my last post).

You? I don't trust you right now, and I can't put my finger on why.

Either way, I'm leaving my vote for now as I wait for someone else to ping my radar. This is day 1, and I'd like to see us find a wolf.

[Remus West]

If he is a villager what is he trying to prove?

It proves nothing at all. Proving something wasn't the idea.

Anyone ascribing "innocent" to me based off my self vote needs to pay more attention. It was not my intention to prove myself via the self vote - that can not be done. It was my intent to get people talking. Mission accomplished.

[McNutt]

I do enjoy the conversation that certain members have brought to this game so far, even if it was all based around self votes.

What say you,  Grundbegriff? 
 

[theohall]

FYI, Grundbegriff is more of a night-time and weekend poster lately. So don't expect a quick answer.

[Remus West]

Grund is a tricky story. I'd say that his willingness to vote me suggest he is a villager (since, I think we can agree, the Seer would not self vote) thining I am either a powerless or a wolf. His lack of need to justify the vote goes right along with that thinking. Only trouble I have with that is Grund knows all the above and would act accordingly if he felt like it. I lean village on Grund but I wouldn't put much stock in it.

translation: I speculate that he is village but speculation isn't worth that much in the long run.

I'm actually thinking
 Lassr 
 

is our best chance at catching a wolf today.

[Newcastle]

 isgrimnur 
 


simple reason, why not...lets see what he has to say...

[Isgrimnur]

If I were a powered, I would say that you needed to take a statistics class, as the odds of me being powered three games in a row are 30%.

But as a villager, I would tell you that's only in the event that you predicted it beforehand, and the odds of me being powered in any game is the same regardless of past results.

As for Remus and Grund, their "skills" are double edged swords, as likely to get an innocent railroaded as to find a werewolf. And if they are wolves, then all bets are off.

[stessier]

Day 1 Vote Count

• Remus acc Newcastle (1)
• theo acc Remus (1)
  Remus wd Newcastle (0)
  Remus acc Remus (2)
• Grund acc Remus (3)
  Newcastle acc Remus (4)
• Isgrimnur acc Lassr (1)
  Remus wd Remus (3)
  Remus acc Lassr (2)
• Qantaga acc Remus (4)
  Remus wd Lassr (1)
  Remus acc Qantaga (1)
  Newcastle wd Remus (3)
  Newcastle acc McNutt (1)
  McNutt acc Remus (4)
  McNutt wd Remus (3)
• Purge acc Qantaga (2)
• McNutt acc Grund (1)
  Remus wd Qantaga (1)
• Remus acc Lassr (2)
  Newcastle wd McNutt (0)
• Newcastle acc Isgrimnur (1)

Votes needed for a Lynch - 5

Against Remus (3): theohall, Grundbegriff, Qantaga
Against Lassr (2): Isgrimnur, Remus
Against Qantaga (1): Purge
Against Grundbegriff (1): McNutt
Against Isgrimnur (1): Newcastle

The first lynch must be done by Sunday, November 13 at 8pm Central Time.

Let me know if I missed anything.

[Lassr]

I wonder if

 Qantaga 
 
is the talkative wolf?

[Remus West]

As for Remus and Grund, their "skills" are double edged swords, as likely to get an innocent railroaded as to find a werewolf. And if they are wolves, then all bets are off.

Color me flattered. Thanks.

[Isgrimnur]

I've been victimized a time or three by the laser-like focus you two exhibit at times, much to the villager's detriment.

[purge]

They do tend to align the masses, don't they?

Remucide (sp?) didn't come about because he wasn't convincing.

[Remus West]

They do tend to align the masses, don't they?

Remucide (sp?) didn't come about because he wasn't convincing.

Actually it did. I spent that entire game saying "Do not follow me." If I had been convincing they would have thought for themselves as I was asking them to do.

[McNutt]

I'm feeling good about being the unknown guy with no history. That's the mystery I bring to the game.

[Lassr]

I'm feeling good about being the unknown guy with no history. That's the mystery I bring to the game.

you have some history if you dig deep enough. Weren't we terrorist or something when these games first started years ago?