WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

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El Guapo
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by El Guapo »

I didn't realize that the bad guys automatically learned the roles of their victims as they died. Isn't that unusual?

Not that it mattered to me. :)
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Re: WW Viking Ship - Day 2

Post by Scoop20906 »

Newcastle wrote:ROLES:

GOOD
Shaman - Qantaga –
Weaponsmith - Rmc
Guardian – El Guapo
Coroner - Theohall
WARBAND 1– Truicy
WARBAND 2 - Lagom
WARBAND 3 – Scoop
WARBAND 4 - Coopasonic
WARBAND 5 - Purge

EVIL
Fighter – Arcanis
Seer (evil) – Grund
Magician – Chaosraven
Leader - Remus
50% is pretty good for me.
Scoop20906 wrote:Hint only mean theohall left hints. I thought Grund was hinting at Arcanis about being a special and not theohall. I could be wrong. However, Grund is dead wrong about me being English.

My guess:
Grundbegriff
Coopasonic
Remus West
Theohall
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Re: WW Viking Ship - Day 2

Post by Grundbegriff »

Good game.

I think we won this one on luck and numbers. 4 English were, it seems, too many. The combination of hitting a Special on the first night and knowing that that's what had happened made a huge difference, obviously.

The English forum is actually pretty uneventful. Our only strategy, really, was to take advantage of opportunities as they presented themselves. The greatest of these was Arcanis's good fortune in being in a position to name Lagom as a Viking and thereby gain his trust.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Chaosraven »

Despite being a Bad Guy, I did note that this was a Three Strike game *IF* the Shooter takes his shot. I believe the Protector role was there to give the potential for at least one extra save for another try.
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Remus West »

Chaosraven wrote:Despite being a Bad Guy, I did note that this was a Three Strike game *IF* the Shooter takes his shot. I believe the Protector role was there to give the potential for at least one extra save for another try.
Yeah, I don't think the numbers were that bad. The trouble comes in giving the bad guys extra powers. The EMP in particular is a bit over powered idea IMO since it sets the good guys back an entire round without slowing the bad guys down appreciably.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by coopasonic »

Chaosraven wrote:Despite being a Bad Guy, I did note that this was a Three Strike game *IF* the Shooter takes his shot. I believe the Protector role was there to give the potential for at least one extra save for another try.
zerker balances the shooter
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by purge »

Grund, you dropped a tell on your "blue" list. I was dead and proven viking, and yet you didn't paint mine that way. Too bad the remaining didn't catch that.

The only imbalance is that the english know the dead role, where we had to wait and count on a special. It could have been very interesting if the english were forced to only be able to communicate to the others with strict limitations. IE 5 messages total for a day cycle, and only three words. During the night cycle they can each submit one message and one response, for fear of being caught.

I didn't mind the odds though, and I loved NC's narration.

Much :wub: to NewCastle.

Our biggest hindrance? RMC didn't listen to me. ;)

In all seriousness, GG all. I really enjoyed it.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Grundbegriff »

purge wrote:Grund, you dropped a tell on your "blue" list. I was dead and proven viking, and yet you didn't paint mine that way. Too bad the remaining didn't catch that.
You mean this?

I agree that not bluing you was a mistake. I'm not sure I see how it counts as a tell rather than just a mistake.

In other words, I would've been perfectly comfortable having anyone notice that-- and would've preferred if someone had done so, enabling me to fix it!
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Chaosraven »

coopasonic wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:Despite being a Bad Guy, I did note that this was a Three Strike game *IF* the Shooter takes his shot. I believe the Protector role was there to give the potential for at least one extra save for another try.
zerker balances the shooter
except the protection also extends to the zerker daytime.
"Where are you off to?"
"I don't know," Snufkin replied.
The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Lagom Lite »

Chaosraven wrote:
coopasonic wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:Despite being a Bad Guy, I did note that this was a Three Strike game *IF* the Shooter takes his shot. I believe the Protector role was there to give the potential for at least one extra save for another try.
zerker balances the shooter
except the protection also extends to the zerker daytime.
...and the zerker always targets a good guy, while the shooter may or may not target a bad guy.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Chaosraven »

Hey, Bad Guys without powers have 2 abilities to start with. (1) Mason communication/Knowledge of who isn't a bad guy. (2) The ability to kill at night without a vote.

Adding powers to them obviously makes them stronger.
"Where are you off to?"
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The door shut again and Snufkin entered his forest, with a hundred miles of silence ahead of him.

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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Newcastle »

In hingsight I do think I should have cut 1 evil player w/ the number set that were present. I asked in the sign up thread and the only one who really responded to it was Remus. No one else really voiced an opinion on it. But hindsight is 20/20.

When i first rolled up the sides, my mouth dropped when i saw the team that formed. And i really wondered if they would be able to steam roll, since I thought it was a pretty powerful side considering the players involved.

Good really had everything that could got wrong, went wrong happen to them. They lost the guardian on the first night, the seer scanned the only self-proving good guy, the outing of the coroner, then the EMP happened. Good just couldnt catch a break here. While bad had everything happen for them. I think what also happened, is that there were no "investigators" nor agitators for good here.

I'll be honest, the lack of participation and how slow the game just bogged down, really ticked me off. And I am glad that the game ended on day 2 since it seemed no one was interested in playing and that was really affecting my enthusiasm for modding. It's like throwing a party and inviting 100 people and only 4 mutes show up. I dont think a time limit really could have helped save this game or helped propel it forward. I just think it was a confluence of people who were busy/not interested for whatever reason that led to such a stagnation.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by El Guapo »

I actually do think that time limits would have helped. That's how these games work, from my limited experience - just like in real life, people just fart around until there's some sort of deadline approaching.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Remus West »

El Guapo wrote:I actually do think that time limits would have helped. That's how these games work, from my limited experience - just like in real life, people just fart around until there's some sort of deadline approaching.
When we started these games we never had a time limit. Day 1 would go on for a RL week with people posting regularly - 10 pages for day 1 wasn't unheard of. Now, everyone seems to wait for someone else to make a play before showing up just long enough to vote. I think it a bit due to burn out and a large chunk due to the silent living longer than the active. People want to "survive" and thus keep to themselves. I post a lot because I don't care if I get lynched. Different ideas on approach. Even the "padding" posts can be read into and get people lynched or give away their role but that, to me, is part of playing the game while remaining silent is not.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Arcanis »

Remus West wrote:
El Guapo wrote:I actually do think that time limits would have helped. That's how these games work, from my limited experience - just like in real life, people just fart around until there's some sort of deadline approaching.
When we started these games we never had a time limit. Day 1 would go on for a RL week with people posting regularly - 10 pages for day 1 wasn't unheard of. Now, everyone seems to wait for someone else to make a play before showing up just long enough to vote. I think it a bit due to burn out and a large chunk due to the silent living longer than the active. People want to "survive" and thus keep to themselves. I post a lot because I don't care if I get lynched. Different ideas on approach. Even the "padding" posts can be read into and get people lynched or give away their role but that, to me, is part of playing the game while remaining silent is not.
This ^^.

I really did feel like I was talking to myself most of the time. I was constantly telling myself to not even bother reading the thread except once a day. If I had just sat back and said nothing like most of the players I never would have been on anyone's radar and that would have actually been an advantage if we didn't already get all the breaks.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Remus West »

Actually, I think one of the big advantages we had were that you and I were both very active and Chaosraven and Grundbegriff were checking in relatively reliably thus we were able to have a much greater influence on the flow of the game.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by El Guapo »

Remus West wrote:
El Guapo wrote:I actually do think that time limits would have helped. That's how these games work, from my limited experience - just like in real life, people just fart around until there's some sort of deadline approaching.
When we started these games we never had a time limit. Day 1 would go on for a RL week with people posting regularly - 10 pages for day 1 wasn't unheard of. Now, everyone seems to wait for someone else to make a play before showing up just long enough to vote. I think it a bit due to burn out and a large chunk due to the silent living longer than the active. People want to "survive" and thus keep to themselves. I post a lot because I don't care if I get lynched. Different ideas on approach. Even the "padding" posts can be read into and get people lynched or give away their role but that, to me, is part of playing the game while remaining silent is not.
Right, so maybe at one point deadlines weren't needed, but they seem pretty essential now don't they?
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Newcastle »

El Guapo wrote:
Remus West wrote:
El Guapo wrote:I actually do think that time limits would have helped. That's how these games work, from my limited experience - just like in real life, people just fart around until there's some sort of deadline approaching.
When we started these games we never had a time limit. Day 1 would go on for a RL week with people posting regularly - 10 pages for day 1 wasn't unheard of. Now, everyone seems to wait for someone else to make a play before showing up just long enough to vote. I think it a bit due to burn out and a large chunk due to the silent living longer than the active. People want to "survive" and thus keep to themselves. I post a lot because I don't care if I get lynched. Different ideas on approach. Even the "padding" posts can be read into and get people lynched or give away their role but that, to me, is part of playing the game while remaining silent is not.
Right, so maybe at one point deadlines weren't needed, but they seem pretty essential now don't they?

i still dont think so, I think the players should dictate the pace, not a deadline. Since most folks will get antsy and decide to vote for whomever in order to get the game going, that i feel reveals more information than a panic induced rush of a looming deadline. I do think there is a sense of burnout around these games as well, maybe thats part of it. But the silent part too is a factor.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Arcanis »

As silly as it sounds perhaps a minimum post count in the game thread would work as well. Every day of game time requires you make at least 4-5 substantive posts, with that being a judgement call by the game facilitator. I know it would likely cause a lot of problems but it may be what is needed to force people to actually play the game rather than just wait until some special comes along and reveals who all the bad guys are.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Newcastle »

Arcanis wrote:As silly as it sounds perhaps a minimum post count in the game thread would work as well. Every day of game time requires you make at least 4-5 substantive posts, with that being a judgement call by the game facilitator. I know it would likely cause a lot of problems but it may be what is needed to force people to actually play the game rather than just wait until some special comes along and reveals who all the bad guys are.
i'd really not want to go that route, i think that's adding more burden tot he game & mod. I really think it should be left up tot he players to regulate themselves and met out collective punishment to those they seem fit.

Its not silly per se, but i think it adds an uncessary burden and has the potentially to push players from joining up.

To be honest I've kind of gotten use to some players low post count and have learned to adapt to it. What i havent gotten use to is when more people also engage in that game play style.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by stessier »

Newcastle wrote:i still dont think so, I think the players should dictate the pace, not a deadline. Since most folks will get antsy and decide to vote for whomever in order to get the game going, that i feel reveals more information than a panic induced rush of a looming deadline. I do think there is a sense of burnout around these games as well, maybe thats part of it. But the silent part too is a factor.
If you feel that way, then you can't get upset when people don't post. You have to hope the game will be self policing and the Silent are truly seen as not helping and voted off. I think Grund once said something along the lines of "just let us play your game." Once you kick it off, I see a Mod as more of a glorified Scribe than a DM. Set up your rules and see what happens and don't take it personally if people play in unintended ways. Just set up your next rule set to exclude/punish behaviours you don't like. :)
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Remus West »

I think that if we had adapted to the silent players by lynching them first off every game we would not have developed this issue to this extent.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by stessier »

Remus West wrote:I think that if we had adapted to the silent players by lynching them first off every game we would not have developed this issue to this extent.
You also would have lost half your team this game. :)
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Newcastle »

stessier wrote:
Newcastle wrote:i still dont think so, I think the players should dictate the pace, not a deadline. Since most folks will get antsy and decide to vote for whomever in order to get the game going, that i feel reveals more information than a panic induced rush of a looming deadline. I do think there is a sense of burnout around these games as well, maybe thats part of it. But the silent part too is a factor.
If you feel that way, then you can't get upset when people don't post. You have to hope the game will be self policing and the Silent are truly seen as not helping and voted off. I think Grund once said something along the lines of "just let us play your game." Once you kick it off, I see a Mod as more of a glorified Scribe than a DM. Set up your rules and see what happens and don't take it personally if people play in unintended ways. Just set up your next rule set to exclude/punish behaviours you don't like. :)

quit being rational and let me have my emo moment. :D
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Qantaga »

Remus West wrote:I think that if we had adapted to the silent players by lynching them first off every game we would not have developed this issue to this extent.

You know, way back in the minor leagues on GT, Issy would keep the mantra going "We kill the quiet ones, because they aren't helping." And we actually followed that pretty faithfully. Of course, GT was a land of speed lynches and not nearly as much analysis as is possible here.

Heck, even tru1cy (Soulchilde over there) was vocal and active in most of those games.

Now, nothing against tru1cy or anyone else's style. We all play the way we want to play. I'm not an agitator, by any means. I don't post quantity (so the post count idea wouldn't lend itself to my particular playstyle), but I do try to post something resembling substance when I do post. I don't think of myself as a necessarily quiet player, but I'm certainly not among the verbose, either.

But I do think a little more "we kill the quiet ones, because they aren't helping" philosophy around here may not be a bad thing. I've always been somewhat amazed here that the quiet ones aren't scrutinized more. In the Princess Bride game, bb2112 (a very active poster) was killed because he typed "is," instead of "were," while several quiet players skated for a number of days. In some of our other games, it surprised me that those generating posts and data were being lynched for perceived "slips," when the silent coasted merrily along. I always thought we would want those with as much data as possible (as the good side, of course) around for the end game.

Anyway, just thinking out loud. I think Newcastle and Remus are on the right track that it's probably a bit of a lull/burn out in the WW game cycle and will probably work itself out soon.

Another factor is that Unagi, stessier, and Lassr (among others) are on hiatus. They're usually all good for periods of game provocation.

As for this particular game, it was a lot of fun. I knew we were hosed the very first night when my scan came back with the Weaponsmith. Even so, the EMP was what hurt the most. Had I gotten the info back on the Lagom scan, we may have been able to extend the game another day or two. Looking back at my early threat matrix, I had listed Lagom, Grund, Chaos, Scoop, and Remus (3/5) as my most suspicious.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Lagom Lite »

There's definitely a problem on these boards with killing the verbose/whimsical/aggressive contributor rather than the silent floater. I think OO has a tendency to over-analyze, which of course is part of its charm... Every misspell and grammatical error is scrutinized for being a "tell" and the offending player is promptly flogged by the Hive.

We really should get better at killing silents in our games. Analyze the "non-post" as much as the post.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by El Guapo »

Hey, I've consistently advocated for minimizing the importance of "slips". People desperately want a "gotcha" moment is the thing so they tend to grab onto them, but they're really very rarely probative.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by stessier »

El Guapo wrote:Hey, I've consistently advocated for minimizing the importance of "slips". People desperately want a "gotcha" moment is the thing so they tend to grab onto them, but they're really very rarely probative.
But when they are, it is fantastic!!! I live for those moments - otherwise it's just the same ol', same ol'. :)
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by El Guapo »

stessier wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Hey, I've consistently advocated for minimizing the importance of "slips". People desperately want a "gotcha" moment is the thing so they tend to grab onto them, but they're really very rarely probative.
But when they are, it is fantastic!!! I live for those moments - otherwise it's just the same ol', same ol'. :)
Yeah, and when a lottery ticket wins it's fantastic too. Doesn't mean that buying lotto tickets is a good idea.
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by LordMortis »

stessier wrote:If you feel that way, then you can't get upset when people don't post.
It doesn't upset me but it is largely what dropped me out of these games. Non participation made the games feel pointless, where the decision was either to lynch the silent, whom weren't helping, or accept that they weren't going to participate and the game would be literally be decided on their lack of participation while active players kill themselves off piece by piece. The flow of the game (and perhaps the outcome) is decided in one of two directions right at the beginning.

And because of this I am predictable when I do play. I always advocate that silent players should die first until such a time as something makes more sense. (Like killing Remus because coincidences to make him a converted bad guy were so high that it had to be true, even if no one believes me)
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Grundbegriff »

Chaosraven wrote:Hey, Bad Guys without powers have 2 abilities to start with. (1) Mason communication/Knowledge of who isn't a bad guy.
Have we tried a game yet where none of the Evils knows the identity of any other Evil?

That might actually be a lot of fun. They'd have to vote via individual PMs to the Mod, with some algorithm for deciding who bites it. (For example: if there's a plurality against Bubba, then Bubba is the victim; but if every Evil submits a different name, a seniority system kicks in.)
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Re: WW Viking Ship - GAME OVER - English Victory

Post by Grundbegriff »

Newcastle wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Right, so maybe at one point deadlines weren't needed, but they seem pretty essential now don't they?
i still dont think so, I think the players should dictate the pace, not a deadline....I do think there is a sense of burnout around these games as well, maybe thats part of it. But the silent part too is a factor.
I think deadlines are sometimes a benefit and sometimes a bane. It's not so much a matter of "before they weren't, but now they are". Rather, there should be a match between the motivation structure provided by the rules and the incentive provided by deadlines.

In addition, I think the period before and during the Thanksgiving holiday weekend is especially hectic in the lives of many, and that this may have had some effect on the Viking game in particular.
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