Prague - Beta Test Run

[Lagom Lite]

What about a ticking clock? You don't have to set a number of nights however at certain points in the game you can make the situation with the students worsen (student's are executed maybe?) with an eye towards eventually by day X we fail and out respect agencies out us out to pasture.

You can keep the number of nights a secret (to yourself) and dribble out the clues as we go through the days and nights.

That's penalty driven and not fun.

[Lagom Lite]

I feel like there is a need to withhold my information. Also, I'm not sure how to collaborate and since there is no mechanism to force collaboration as in normal werewolf where we have to collaborate otherwise we all die.

Grund, can you explain the motivation to share info and vote together to interrogate someone?

Good question. The main motivation is to gain clues. Without most or all of the clues, your chance of solving the puzzle is slim.

However, the gameplay is at a standstill because it's too hard to figure out how to break the stalemate and paranoia. Here's an example of breakage:

Suppose GS and BG decline to vote against someone to interrogate. In that case, KIM earns a scan.
Suppose they do this five times. KIM earns five scans.
By this time, the KIM agents meet in their hideout and cash in those scans.

They started with four clues between them. With five more scans, they have 9 of the 18. They're halfway to solving the puzzle.
Meanwhile, GS and BG have had five scans apiece. Each of those teams starts with 8 pieces of information, so each has the potential to reach 13 by this method.

At this point, of course, with no public scans, it's just a matter of time before either BG or GS reaches 18, figures out the puzzle, and wins.

In that sense, even with the buffs, the mechanism of the game is tilted against KIM. It's possible for the other two teams to force KIM to lose.

THE ROOT of this problem is the fact that there's no urgency to public interrogation, as you say. For this reason, I'm contemplating the following two tweaks to the rules. I present them here for discussion. Specifically, I'd like to know whether you all endorse the idea that these additions would jazz things up a bit!

FIRST: The KIM team gets a scan every night, just like the other two teams. That way, they'll never be left in the dust.
SECOND: The penalty for failing to vote to interrogate would no longer be that KIM gets a scan chip to cash in later. Instead, the penalty for failing to elect a victim would be this: I, the Moderator, randomly select a player (from among those who have never been interrogated) as if he had been elected, and he's interrogated twice. (In other words, if he's normal, both of his facts are exposed. If he's hardened, then he goes through two steps of resistance.)

This way, there's a steady exposure of facts to move the puzzle-solving forward. Either you drive, or I drive. If you drive, you have some control over what's exposed and in what measure.

THOUGHTS?

I think it's better than nothing, but somewhat ad hoc and doesn't really solve the deeper issues. Basically, what the fix does is (FIRST) balance/boost the moles and (SECOND) take away control from the players and give it to random.org.

[Lagom Lite]

Also, Grund, I really LIKE this setup and game!

I need to say that, and I really mean it - that's why I think it should be reworked and restarted in a while, and this round considered a beta test. Often, it's only once you've started playing a game that you start seeing what needs to be fixed.

[Lagom Lite]

Here's a workable idea:

There's an eleventh player - The Supervillain! (dun-dun-dunnn!)

The Supervillain:
* Starts the game knowing the team of each player (Goldman or Blusterberg)
* Each night, may scan a player, finding out both his facts. If the targeted player is on a team with an active mole, the player is not only scanned but also killed.
* Has two helpers, one Treacherous Mole in Goldman and one Treacherous Mole in Blusterberg.
* So long as the Supervillain has a Mole in a team, the Supervillain's scan becomes a kill + scan.
* Has no facts.
* Can read the Mole forum (but not write).
* If the Supervillain is Interrogated, he is removed from play (killed) and all facts he has uncovered is exposed in the main thread.

The Moles:
* Starts on the same team as the Supervillain, but don't know his identity
* Has a secret forum
* Has no powers other than giving the Supervillain his Kill ability for players on the mole's infiltrated team
* Has two false facts each, no real facts.

Goldman/Blusterberg:
* Four agents divided into two subforums (one agent is a mole and can only read his infiltrated subforum plus the mole forum)
* Handler has no power other than the ability to read and write on both subforums (no scan, nothing)

...

The above (while probably in need of balancing and tweaking but we'll discuss that if it's interesting) gives all Goldman/Blusterberg players a real sense of urgency, but at the same time moles/villain isn't overpowered - you only need to hit the Supervillain once and his team is gimped. But you really really really need to find him fast.

[stessier]

[/b][/color]SECOND: The penalty for failing to vote to interrogate would no longer be that KIM gets a scan chip to cash in later. Instead, the penalty for failing to elect a victim would be this: I, the Moderator, randomly select a player (from among those who have never been interrogated) as if he had been elected, and he's interrogated twice. (In other words, if he's normal, both of his facts are exposed. If he's hardened, then he goes through two steps of resistance.)

As the voice of unreasonable logic ( ), the best method then becomes

Fail to Vote for Interrogation -> You give us two clues from someone at random
That night, the Handlers scan the Interrogation target to get the last possible clue
Fail to Vote for Interrogation -> You give us two clues from someone at random
That night, the Handlers scan the Interrogation target to get the last possible clue
Rinse/Repeat

Yeah, it'll be random, but it will also be the fastest ways to get all the clues (we could only get them one at a time if we do it ourselves). And since you are only using Random.org on someone who has never been interrogated, it'll hit (in theory) each side evenly. There's still no way a side can act unilaterally, so there's still no way for a side to exploit the advantage if they know the other side has give up more clues than they have.

Based on everything else I'm reading here, the more likely outcome is we never vote at all and just let you expose clues for us. With only the Vet and Moles messing up the list, we could still probably figure out the whole puzzle once we boot the Moles and can collaborate. It'll be like the timed round of Wheel of Fortune.

[stessier]

Here's a workable idea:

There's an eleventh player - The Supervillain! (dun-dun-dunnn!)

The Supervillain:
* Starts the game knowing the team of each player (Goldman or Blusterberg)
* Each night, may scan a player, finding out both his facts. If the targeted player is on a team with an active mole, the player is not only scanned but also killed.
* Has two helpers, one Treacherous Mole in Goldman and one Treacherous Mole in Blusterberg.
* So long as the Supervillain has a Mole in a team, the Supervillain's scan becomes a kill + scan.
* Has no facts.
* Can read the Mole forum (but not write).
* If the Supervillain is Interrogated, he is removed from play (killed) and all facts he has uncovered is exposed in the main thread.

The Moles:
* Starts on the same team as the Supervillain, but don't know his identity
* Has a secret forum
* Has no powers other than giving the Supervillain his Kill ability for players on the mole's infiltrated team
* Has two false facts each, no real facts.

Goldman/Blusterberg:
* Four agents divided into two subforums (one agent is a mole and can only read his infiltrated subforum plus the mole forum)
* Handler has no power other than the ability to read and write on both subforums (no scan, nothing)

...

The above (while probably in need of balancing and tweaking but we'll discuss that if it's interesting) gives all Goldman/Blusterberg players a real sense of urgency, but at the same time moles/villain isn't overpowered - you only need to hit the Supervillain once and his team is gimped. But you really really really need to find him fast.

How do you boot the Mole?

The Supervillian can essentially determine the winner of the game by concentrating on one team - which he will have to do once he loses one of his Moles. And once a team is down a player, the other team can take over the voting and that will be it. They will let the other team wither.

And if by chance both teams are equal after both Moles and the Supervillian are dead, what is the motivation to work together? You are back to my Proposal for getting people to vote. More likely, though, no one votes and sides just start randomly guessing at the solution hoping to get it before the other side. (The best choice there would probably be to not guess the first day, let the other side fail, get the extra clue that is announced, then make your guess. You'll be one clue up on your opponent and the chances of them getting it right on the first guess are pretty slim.)

[stessier]

Fundamentally I'm not sure Two+ sided games can ever work.

Two sides can work together for a common goal, but only if there is no negative impact on themselves in doing so. Once there is the risk of something bad happening, the better option is to simply do nothing. Even in real life, people often do that and hope whatever bad is coming hurts the other side instead. If someone does act, it is only out of a sense of higher good and self sacrifice. You can never replicate that in the game where there is no Heaven to aspire too.

Or maybe I'm just standing too close to Rev and need to get some fresh air.

[Grundbegriff]

Thanks indeed for the feedback, Lagom Lite and stessier.
I'd prefer to patch rather than reroll and restart. Right now, each person has two good clues and nobody has shared anything.

In the interest of simplicity, maybe the better fix would be...

(a) to eliminate KIM and fold those two agents, as hardened veterans, into the two large teams.
(b) to make a final interrogation lethal. (i.e., the second interrogation of a normal kills him; the third of a hardened kills him).

Then we could resume right where we left off, but without the layer that induces stalemate.

Whaddyathink?

[bb2112]

I humbly disagree with LL. I think the game is still fun. The only tweak I would give is a stiffer penalty if Goldman and Blusterbag can't come to a consensus on a lynch.

One answer could be if an interrogation does not occur during the day cycle, then give team KIM a scan at night. They name one person and they get 2 facts, and veteran status doesn't count against their scan. This will motivate teams G&B to come to a consensus, even if it may be one of their own guys who is on the voting block. Giving one potential clue (potential because of veteran status) to all would be better than giving 2 confirmed clues to KIM, and only KIM.

[stessier]

Thanks indeed for the feedback, Lagom Lite and stessier.
I'd prefer to patch rather than reroll and restart. Right now, each person has two good clues and nobody has shared anything.

In the interest of simplicity, maybe the better fix would be...

(a) to eliminate KIM and fold those two agents, as hardened veterans, into the two large teams.
(b) to make a final interrogation lethal. (i.e., the second interrogation of a normal kills him; the third of a hardened kills him).

Then we could resume right where we left off, but without the layer that induces stalemate.

Whaddyathink?

I think the disconnect may be that you see the challenge as trying to solve the puzzle. A player sees the challenge as trying to make sure the other team doesn't win.

The teams are still even. There are still the forums to pool all the teams clues. There is no incentive to interrogate anyone. If you convince someone to actually be interrogated, the other side will never interrogate again. They are up one clue and will rely on the Night Scan to get the rest. There is certainly no chance anyone will risk losing a player by interrogating a second time. If a teams are ever unbalanced, it's all over.

If you remove the forums, people will still try to force you to announce what team you are on and the voting stalemate will continue (Someone always tries to organize chaos - it's a character flaw. ). If you remove the Night Scan, you may get a quid pro quo vote for a round or two, but at some point, a side will reneg, be up a clue and teams will just start guessing the solution and let clues be revealed.

[Lagom Lite]

I'd prefer to patch rather than reroll and restart.

...Fine, but I'd like to invite triggercut to fill in for me. If you don't mind. I don't think I'll have the patience to see this one out.

[stessier]

Grund can't get to OO from work, so he asked me to post this on his behalf:

(a) to eliminate KIM and fold those two agents, as hardened veterans, into the two large teams.
(b) to make a final interrogation lethal. (i.e., the second interrogation of a normal kills him; the third of a hardened kills him).
Whaddyathink?

I think the disconnect may be that you see the challenge as trying to solve the puzzle. A player sees the challenge as trying to make sure the other team doesn't win.

I see it as both: trying to solve the puzzle before the other guy does.

The teams are still even. There are still the forums to pool all the teams clues. There is no incentive to interrogate anyone. If you convince someone to actually be interrogated, the other side will never interrogate again. They are up one clue and will rely on the Night Scan to get the rest. There is certainly no chance anyone will risk losing a player by interrogating a second time. If a teams are ever unbalanced, it's all over.

Think about why Werewolf works.
There's a big team. There's a small team. The big team wants to kill people in order to eliminate the small team. The small team wants to kill people in order to achieve equilibrium with the big team.
That's enjoyable.

Now think about how I'm trying to modify Werewolf.
I want to introduce a victory condition that replaces extermination/equilibrium.
The Death mechanism in Werewolf is the route to either extermination or equilibrium.
So the Death mechanism isn't relevant to the new victory condition.
The new victory condition is to solve a puzzle before the other team can.
A Clue mechanism is necessary to move toward that goal. Clues must be doled out, just as in Werewolf lives must be scratched.

Now, why does Werewolf work where Prague, so far, seems not to work?
The incentive in Werewolf is that execution moves you toward the goal of your team.
The incentive in Prague is that interrogation (i.e., Clue revelation) moves you toward the goal of your team.
The key difference is that Death in Werewolf helps either one team xor the other but not both.
In Prague, Clue revelation helps everybody or nobody. Likewise, everyone has a scan, so there's no reason to trigger daytime Clue revelation.

In light of this analysis, maybe the fix is this:

1. Everyone who has received clues (and that's everyone) keeps his clues. However, I reshuffle the teams.
2. Two teams: the Good Spies and the Bad Spies. By day, everyone claims to be a Good Spy.
3. There is no private forum mechanism for finding one's teammates. If Bad Spies are fewer than Good Spies, then they get a forum.
4. Voting by day is the only way for Good to find clues. For example, we all vote against Bubba because we think he's a Bad Spy. If we're right, we learn both of his clues. Huzzah! But if we're wrong, his team learns some of our clues (randomly culled from among the opposite team, so that Good doesn't know what Bad has learned). Clues will still be announced by the Moderator without specifying their origin, so (most of) the Good team won't know if they're really tapping into Bad's lore or merely recycling their own.
5. By night, a Good Handler (effectively a Seer) can scan for BadSpy.
6. By night, a Bad Handler can scan for two clues, EMP the Good Handler (once or twice).
7. We could still employ some of the Hardened Veteran mechanics to throw red herrings into the mix.

I love the idea of having subversive elements, so maybe a KIM agent or two could be playing solo (winning by solving) and scanning as Good.

Do you think this would work?

[El Guapo]

Grund's new revisions sound intruiging.

[Lagom Lite]

Yes, that looks like it would work. I agree with Grund's analysis of the problem.

[stessier]

I have a few questions about the voting and powers:

4. Voting by day is the only way for Good to find clues. For example, we all vote against Bubba because we think he's a Bad Spy. If we're right, we learn both of his clues. Huzzah! But if we're wrong, his team learns some of our clues (randomly culled from among the opposite team, so that Good doesn't know what Bad has learned). Clues will still be announced by the Moderator without specifying their origin, so (most of) the Good team won't know if they're really tapping into Bad's lore or merely recycling their own.
5. By night, a Good Handler (effectively a Seer) can scan for BadSpy.
6. By night, a Bad Handler can scan for two clues, EMP the Good Handler (once or twice).
7. We could still employ some of the Hardened Veteran mechanics to throw red herrings into the mix.

I love the idea of having subversive elements, so maybe a KIM agent or two could be playing solo (winning by solving) and scanning as Good.

Do you think this would work?

So, if I understand

• Team Good = 5 players
• Team Evil = 5 players

No one knows anyone and the game is played on OO like regular WW.

Good votes to learn clues.

• If Bad Lynched -> Everyone learns his two clues
• If Good Lynched -> What happens? It seems like everyone learns his clues and Evil learns an additional clue

Additionally, Good has a Seer scanning for Evil. Evil can scan for 2 clues xor EMP the Seer.

I'll leave off KIM or Vets for now, but is that part right?

Questions:

• How do players submit puzzle solutions?
• Is it every man for himself with the winning side the one with the first player to get the right answer?
• What happens if both sides submit the correct answer on the same night?

Observations

• Evil is unable to organize.
• Good is unable to organize and does not know when they hit Good or Evil.
• The chances of lynching Evil/Good are equal until the Seer gets involved.
• The Seer lives forever, but might miss one or two nights.
• Evil will not knowingly lynch one of their own - will they?
• If there is no lynch - which Evil can force by not voting, their Seer continues to collect clues each night.
• Everyone has to be lynched eventually for Good to have all the clues.

So Good has to rely on the Seer. He tells them whether the clues they just got were from Good or Evil. Once Good hits the 5 Evils, they can pool clues to solve the puzzle - but they have no secret place for that, so they have to reveal in the forum.

Same problem with Evil - their Seer gets clues, but has no way to announce them to his fellow to help in their efforts.

I think you are getting closer.

[stessier]

So, if I understand

• Team Good = 5 players
• Team Evil = 5 players

Not necessarily. They could be asymmetrical (say, 7 and 3) with the 3 having a private forum to work on their Solutions.

No one knows anyone and the game is played on OO like regular WW.
Good votes to learn clues.

• If Bad Lynched -> Everyone learns his two clues
• If Good Lynched -> What happens? It seems like everyone learns his clues and Evil learns an additional clue

Right. So, in theory, misses by good accelerate Bad's pursuit of a complete set of clues. Bad is acquiring two nightly, plus two for every miss. Meanwhile, if Good simply puts all their stuff out there, Bad can solve immediately. So Good must work out a way to share their clues in enough measure to move toward a solution, while holding back enough clues to prevent Evil from solving before Good can.

Additionally, Good has a Seer scanning for Evil. Evil can scan for 2 clues xor EMP the Seer.

I'll leave off KIM or Vets for now, but is that part right?

Pretty much.

Questions:

• How do players submit puzzle solutions?

Everyone works from the clues that are made public. Plus, Good might decide for a couple of teammates to step forward and present their clues. (This is an opportunity for Evil to emulate Good and throw a monkey wrench into the mix).

Each Good player tries to solve privately. If he thinks he has a Solution, the group votes on whether to Submit it. If it's right, that's victory. If it's wrong, there's a penalty (say, one Good clue goes to the Bad team). So it's a balancing act. If Good "eliminates" all evil, they get all the clues, solve more or less openly (holding back only what will prevent evil from beating them), and wins.

Is it every man for himself with the winning side the one with the first player to get the right answer?

What happens if both sides submit the correct answer on the same night?

Good question. Maybe one team submits by day, and the other by night. Or maybe there's a pecking order.

Observations

• Evil is unable to organize.

With three players, Evil gets egg roll and a private forum.

Good is unable to organize and does not know when they hit Good or Evil.

Maybe a night scanner who, on the night after an interrogation, can discern a count of Truths and Lies?

The chances of lynching Evil/Good are equal until the Seer gets involved.

The Seer lives forever, but might miss one or two nights.

Evil will not knowingly lynch one of their own - will they?

Evil knows Evil.

If there is no lynch - which Evil can force by not voting, their Seer continues to collect clues each night.

Everyone has to be lynched eventually for Good to have all the clues.

Your questions presuppose equal teams; I proposed asymmetry.

So Good has to rely on the Seer. He tells them whether the clues they just got were from Good or Evil. Once Good hits the 5 Evils, they can pool clues to solve the puzzle - but they have no secret place for that, so they have to reveal in the forum.

Something like that.

But maybe truth/lie scanning is better than hunting evils. Not sure. Must ponder.

[stessier]

Incidentally, this conversation is just going on through PMs in the Private Forums. If anyone else has comments or suggestions, definitely send them along to him that way (and post here as well!). I'm just transcribing here so people are in the loop.

\

[Grundbegriff]

I humbly disagree with LL. I think the game is still fun. The only tweak I would give is a stiffer penalty if Goldman and Blusterbag can't come to a consensus on a lynch.

Just a note, since I'm freshly home from big job and on my way to small job, which won't end until late tonight....

First, thanks for all the feedback. I wish this had happened during official gameprep, but I think people needed to dip a toe in the water in order to see what would float and what wouldn't.

Second, a request: don't share your secrets and don't share your team alignment!

Third, and most important: I don't envision a major revision of the rules at this point. What I want to do is make a couple of tweaks that will leave the game state intact, so we can continue, while enhancing the fun factor.

I'm inclined to agree with the comment quoted above. Minor adjustments should make it more enjoyable. The most important of these would be to motivate some action!

Here's a way of thinking about the problem while I'm at work:

(a) In normal Werewolf, there's a big team and there's a small team. Big wins by annihilating small; small wins by achieving equilibrium with Big. The mechanism of change is DEATH by vote plus DEATH by night kill.

(b) In this game, the goal isn't annihilation or equilibrium. Instead, each team has a few pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. A team wins by acquiring the pieces that belong to the other team(s). So there must be a mechanism for moving information from team to team. By day, this is INTERROGATION. By night, it's SCANNING.

We've enjoyed games with sorcerers before-- they win with Evil but scan as Good.

I think one way to proceed would be as follows:
(a) Think of KIM agents as sorcerers: they scan as good, but they have ulterior motives.
(b) Remove the Handler's ability to identify his mole definitively (whether by scanning or by whacking). Instead, he'll just have to figure out which forum has his mole and then get the Real Work done in the other forum. And maybe get it wrong!
(c) Remove the Mole's ability to see both forums. Instead, give KIM a scanning power and an undercover presence in just the one cell forum.
(d) Impose a stronger penalty for failing to interrogate: If the group names no target, the Moderator randomly selects a non-Kim target and exposes both of that player's secrets. (Yes, in the long run Random would deal even hands; but with a set of 8, it could skew severely... or not!)

In this manner, there's (1) a reason to vote or suffer loss of secrets, (2) there's a clear reason (namely, the original reason) for each Handler to manage two forums, (3) there's still a way (through intensive interrogation) to expose KIM agents as liars, and (4) night action is no longer a way to hedge anyone out since each team has a scanner.

That would entail minimal changes but raise the stakes.

And now, I'm off to teach. Be back late tonight.

BTW: No matter what, we'll extend the first deadline to, say, Monday so folks will have time to discuss, further grok the game's unique features, and to settle into any rule changes we end up making.

OK. Discuss!

[Grundbegriff]

Grund can't get to OO from work, so he asked me to post this on his behalf:

Actually, no. And I wish you hadn't done it. But whatever. :/

All I asked was this: "Please post into the OO Prague thread, on my behalf, that I would like everyone to retain his two clues and NOT share them until we work this out."

[Grundbegriff]

Survived that. One more day of work (today), and then, this evening, I'll introduce a couple of tweaks that take into account the better ideas that have been proposed, and we'll continue from there with the same teams and the same clues and the same relationships and cover.

Thanks for your patience and beta testing!

I'll post again in the late afternoon.

[Grundbegriff]

Having slept on it, I've decided to take a conservative approach to introducing changes. At this point, each player has two clues and a team and some familiarity with the story and rules. I want to disturb that state as little as possible.

In Werewolf, daily and nightly death raises the stakes because each team might gain an advantage through those means. It works without contrivance because everyone claims to be on the same team.

The Three-team games typically fail because everyone declares his actual team and it becomes either a stalemate or a boring mathematical reduction.

Although we have three teams in this game, I want to retain some of the spirit of Werewolf. So here's how I'm thinking about it:

The fundamental way you make progress: gain genuine clues
The fundamental way you impede your enemies: make them think they're getting genuine clues when they're actually getting lies

For this to work, each team must have (a) a place where teammates can safely work on the clues they trust, and (b) a place where they can spread disinformation.

WHERE CAN WE SAFELY WORK OUT THE PUZZLE?
(A) There is no whack-a-mole. Moles retain access to their cover forum and have access to their KIM forum.
(B) KIM works out the puzzle in the KIM forum.
(C1) GS has two forums, one infected and one not. GS can work out the puzzle in its safe forum, and introduce lies into its infected forum to confuse the mole.
(C2) BG has two forums, one infected and one not. BG can work out the puzzle in its safe forum, and introduce lies into its infected forum to confuse the mole.
(D) Tactic (C) will only work if the Handler figures out which of his two subforums is infected. Having figured this out, the Handler must not let on that he knows, or the Mole will stop trusting that the Handler is unaware.

WHERE CAN WE SPREAD DISINFORMATION?
(E) KIM can spread lies in their cover forum (the "infected" forums) or by being interrogated.
(F1) GS can spread lies in their infected forum (thwarting KIM) or by being interrogated.
(F2) BG can spread lies in their infected forum (thwarting KIM) or by being interrogated.

HOW CAN WE GAIN CLUES (which may or may not be lies)?
(G) Interrogate by day.

WHAT HAPPENS IF WE DON'T INTERROGATE?
(H) GS and BG lose their night scan. KIM keeps their night scan no matter what.

I agree with Lagom Lite that introducing random exposure into the mix takes some power and self-determination away from the players. Doing that isn't necessarily bad, but leaving everyone empowered to determine the game's outcome is preferable.

So I thought of this: the penalty for doing nothing by day is that you lose the power to do something by night. To put it differently, if you want a night scan, you have to interrogate by day.

As a result: If nothing happens by day, KIM eventually scans everyone and wins. If something happens by day, the game makes steady progress by day and night.

Thoughts?

Is that enough of a penalty/bonus structure to give people a reason to interrogate?

[El Guapo]

Seems reasonable. At first glance I think the interrogation is still likely to be methodical - i.e. torture the crap out of a person (multiple times) then pick another person, since that seems like the only way to get reliable clues other than teammate swaps (which themselves are only likely to occur after a mole is exposed). But I'm fine with that, and happy to give it a whirl.

[Grundbegriff]

Seems reasonable. At first glance I think the interrogation is still likely to be methodical - i.e. torture the crap out of a person (multiple times) then pick another person, since that seems like the only way to get reliable clues other than teammate swaps (which themselves are only likely to occur after a mole is exposed). But I'm fine with that, and happy to give it a whirl.

Well, I was thinking about that.

Here's my solution:

Hardened veterans are hardened. So no amount of interrogation will uncover their real secrets. This might allow KIM agents to pose as hardened veterans up to a point. So then, there's no way to expose someone as KIM or Hardened Veteran merely by means of public interrogation.

Meanwhile, Handlers would have a scan instead of Whack a Mole: It would be Scan for Veteran, and it would only give "Hardened Veteran" in response to an OO name (not a codename). So Handlers would have to (a) learn the OO names of their teammates, and (b) scan for Vet not knowing for sure whether a vet thus discovered is his own loyal vet rather than a mole.

Naturally, the hardened vet would be in one cell forum and the mole in the other.

This would give KIM agents a means, and a reason, to claim to be the genuine hardened vet, and would force the Handler to figure out which team is infected.

[stessier]

Hardened Vet just comes out in his non-bugged forum and gives his OO name. The Mole could try the same but would quickly be found out.

Also, nothing stopping both teams from declaring in the main thread. Moles might swap sides, but no one else as any incentive too.

[Grundbegriff]

Hardened Vet just comes out in his non-bugged forum and gives his OO name. The Mole could try the same but would quickly be found out.

Found out how? They both scan as "Hardened Vet", which has the merit of being true.

[stessier]

Hardened Vet just comes out in his non-bugged forum and gives his OO name. The Mole could try the same but would quickly be found out.

Found out how? They both scan as "Hardened Vet", which has the merit of being true.

Missed that part. Thinking...

(and posting from a touchpad which is slow...)

[stessier]

Safest course of action then is to ask both "Vets" to reveal their true clues. Interrogating hardened vet will never reveal them. Interrogating Mole will reveal a lie (after 2 or 3 tries, depending on day started). GS and BG alternate interrogating their own Vet. They will learn which forum is bugged without ever having to scan for vet and get to target the moles next (if they weren't lucky enough to choose them first time around).

Edit - wait -KIM is a hardened vet...

Edit 2 - okay, Then is there night scan for clues still?

Yep - still there. Okay, publicly declare sides. Alternate interrogations to keep the night scans. Have Vets declare true clues. Scan your own Vet. KIM either has to give up both clues, or is caught. Could take as long as four days though. Still never have to scan for Vets - don't think that is a big deal though. Hmmm....

[Grundbegriff]

Edit - wait -KIM is a hardened vet...

Edit 2 - okay, Then is there night scan for clues still?

Yep - still there. Okay, publicly declare sides. Alternate interrogations to keep the night scans. Have Vets declare true clues. Scan your own Vet. KIM either has to give up both clues, or is caught. Could take as long as four days though. Still never have to scan for Vets - don't think that is a big deal though. Hmmm....

Well, we could go so far as to say that the Handler has no scan at all for Vets. Then
(a) the KIM agents can lie with impunity, and
(b) the Handler can't game the system as you're describing.

There would still have to be a means for exposing someone as a Mole and learning his true clues, if indeed he is a Mole.

And here it is:

(a) Only the KIM agents are hardened veterans. Nobody else is.
(b) If you interrogate someone a third time, his clues are confirmed in public and he dies if he's non-Kim.

That way, a KIM could be exposed if uncovered. However, being wrong means losing a man.

[stessier]

Wait, night scan still reveals both clues, right? Then it will be done in one night, or else KIM has to give up both clues. At that point no collaboration is necessary. The Handler knows the unbugged forum and only has to hope the other team chooses the bugged forums other occupant for interrogation. Worse comes to worse, scan them after night scanning the whole other side. With three day interrogations per person to verify their stories, we'll only get through 4 (maybe) people before everyone else has been scanned at night. KIM has it even easier as they can coordinate 2 night scans. They have all the clues in 4 days.

[Grundbegriff]

Wait, night scan still reveals both clues, right? Then it will be done in one night, or else KIM has to give up both clues.

What are you talking about?
How would anyone know that KIM's clues are lies, unless a contrary fact were also known?

At that point no collaboration is necessary. The Handler knows the unbugged forum

How?

And let's say that night scans reveal a single clue, under the revised system.

[stessier]

If you interrogate someone a third time, his clues are confirmed in public and he dies if he's non-Kim.

That way, a KIM could be exposed if uncovered. However, being wrong means losing a man.

Who is going to put their man up for a third vote and risk it? Sides can't act unilaterally and the only ones who could break a tie (KIM) would blow their cover if they did. And once one side is down, only KIM could help even them back up again - and only on the first day after the teams unbalance. They become Kingmakers.

[stessier]

Hang on a sec - moving to a faster computer. We are cross posting and it's messing up the discussion.

[stessier]

Okay, so we have this

Edit - wait -KIM is a hardened vet...

Edit 2 - okay, Then is there night scan for clues still?

Yep - still there. Okay, publicly declare sides. Alternate interrogations to keep the night scans. Have Vets declare true clues. Scan your own Vet. KIM either has to give up both clues, or is caught. Could take as long as four days though. Still never have to scan for Vets - don't think that is a big deal though. Hmmm....

Well, we could go so far as to say that the Handler has no scan at all for Vets. Then
(a) the KIM agents can lie with impunity, and
(b) the Handler can't game the system as you're describing.

There would still have to be a means for exposing someone as a Mole and learning his true clues, if indeed he is a Mole.

And here it is:

(a) Only the KIM agents are hardened veterans. Nobody else is.
(b) If you interrogate someone a third time, his clues are confirmed in public and he dies if he's non-Kim.

That way, a KIM could be exposed if uncovered. However, being wrong means losing a man.

and this

Wait, night scan still reveals both clues, right? Then it will be done in one night, or else KIM has to give up both clues.

What are you talking about?
How would anyone know that KIM's clues are lies, unless a contrary fact were also known?

At that point no collaboration is necessary. The Handler knows the unbugged forum

How?

And let's say that night scans reveal a single clue, under the revised system.

Okay.

Current Rules

1. So, KIM is only Hardened Vet.
2. Night scan only reveals one clue.
3. Good has to Day Interrogate to get Night Scan.
4. KIM always has Night Scan.
5. Triple interrogating exposes KIM, kills non-KIM.
6. KIM has R/W only to the "Bugged" Good Forum at all times.
7. KIM has R/W to KIM forum at all times.

(I'll post the current rules each time so you know what I'm responding to.)

Based on this set of rules:

1. KIM can collaborate. Will take them 8 Days to get full set of clues through Night Scan.
2. KIM knows KIM and thus knows which Interrogations reveal true clues.
3. My point about Kingmakers still stands. I don't see why anyone risks the third interrogation when it means giving the other team control of the game.

[Grundbegriff]

Based on this set of rules:

1. KIM can collaborate. Will take them 8 Days to get full set of clues through Night Scan.
2. KIM knows KIM and thus knows which Interrogations reveal true clues.
3. My point about Kingmakers still stands. I don't see why anyone risks the third interrogation when it means giving the other team control of the game.

Suppose you're a Handler. You figure out that Bubba, on your team, must be a KIM agent. You figure this out because

(a) Bubba claimed under interrogation that X.
and
(b) You know, from your own private clues, that not-X.

So you string him up.

In other words, you're probably right that people would only risk a third interrogation to eliminate KIM.

[stessier]

Current Rules

1. So, KIM is only Hardened Vet.
2. Night scan only reveals one clue.
3. Good has to Day Interrogate to get Night Scan.
4. KIM always has Night Scan.
5. Triple interrogating exposes KIM, kills non-KIM.
6. KIM has R/W only to the "Bugged" Good Forum at all times.
7. KIM has R/W to KIM forum at all times.

(I'll post the current rules each time so you know what I'm responding to.)

Based on this set of rules:

1. KIM can collaborate. Will take them 8 Days to get full set of clues through Night Scan.
2. KIM knows KIM and thus knows which Interrogations reveal true clues.
3. My point about Kingmakers still stands. I don't see why anyone risks the third interrogation when it means giving the other team control of the game.

What about this -

1. KIM can't collaborate until they decide to join the KIM forum.
2. KIM gets back R access to Non-bugged forum
3. To join KIM forum, they either have to do it publicly, or renounce the Good Forums and move to the KIM forum. Either way, Good has to know they are not bugged.

What this does is:

1. Incentive not to publicly declare teams. If KIM knows who is who, they can coordinate scans without ever talking and then join the KIM forum when they both have clues and solve the puzzle.
2. Incentive not to privately declare teams. Same reasoning - as above
3. Removes need for third scan - Good will know which Interrogations were true as soon KIM abandons ship.

It might make sense to make KIM renouncing forum only known to the forum they left. So only GS knows when they are unbugged. Then they know which of their clues are good but not which of the BG interrogations are good.

How's that?

[Grundbegriff]

So...
A. Kim start not knowing one another, as is now stands.
B. At some point, KIM may blow own cover and meet at Charles Bridge, as it now stands.
C. That's the only way they're going to be able to collaborate. Meanwhile, they have to hope they don't scan the same people.

The only difference to the current rules is the elimination of Whack A Mole?

[stessier]

So...
A. Kim start not knowing one another, as is now stands.
B. At some point, KIM may blow own cover and meet at Charles Bridge, as it now stands.
C. That's the only way they're going to be able to collaborate. Meanwhile, they have to hope they don't scan the same people.

The only difference to the current rules is the elimination of Whack A Mole?

Heh - yeah, I guess so. Oh, and no Good Hardened Vet, right?

[Grundbegriff]

So...
A. Kim start not knowing one another, as is now stands.
B. At some point, KIM may blow own cover and meet at Charles Bridge, as it now stands.
C. That's the only way they're going to be able to collaborate. Meanwhile, they have to hope they don't scan the same people.

The only difference to the current rules is the elimination of Whack A Mole?

Heh - yeah, I guess so. Oh, and no Good Hardened Vet, right?

In other words, aren't we nearly back where I started before introducing some buffs for KIM?

[Grundbegriff]

Can you do me the favor of summarizing the rules in a list? I need to go run the dog before the sun sets!

[stessier]

So...
A. Kim start not knowing one another, as is now stands.
B. At some point, KIM may blow own cover and meet at Charles Bridge, as it now stands.
C. That's the only way they're going to be able to collaborate. Meanwhile, they have to hope they don't scan the same people.

The only difference to the current rules is the elimination of Whack A Mole?

Heh - yeah, I guess so. Oh, and no Good Hardened Vet, right?

In other words, aren't we nearly back where I started before introducing some buffs for KIM?

Perhaps...just shows you should really stick with your original intuition when designing these things.

We should probably go back and look at why you introduced the buffs in the first place just to make sure we aren't overlooking something.