Prague - (Game Thread) GAME ON!!!

[stessier]

I think that is a very bad idea. Additionally, you have to say "torture" for it to be effective today.

[Qantaga]

I think that is a very bad idea. Additionally, you have to say "torture" for it to be effective today.

It wouldn't be a torture. It would be getting his second clue. If he's KIM, his second lie (if he submitted more than one) might tip someone off to his KIM status, now that both Chiefs have a few scans under their belts. If he's a pure agent, what's the difference between getting his second clue and someone else's first?

Why would it be a very bad idea to get his second clue?

[Grundbegriff]

Aggregate vote history:
Qantaga to interrogate Unagi(1)
Remus West to interrogate Unagi(2)
Lassr to interrogate Unagi(3)
bb2112 to interrogate Unagi(4)

Individual vote history:
Qantaga : interrogate Unagi
Remus West : interrogate Unagi
Lassr : interrogate Unagi
bb2112 : interrogate Unagi

Currently Targeted:
Unagi(4): Qantaga, Remus West, Lassr, bb2112

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: Chaosraven, El Guapo, Newcastle, Scoop20906, stessier, Unagi

[Newcastle]

 unagi 
 

[Chaosraven]

 interrogate Unagi 
 

[Unagi]

Happy New Year !

I think, in fairness, my team should get to learn Qantaga's 2nd clue next.

[Grundbegriff]

Aggregate vote history:
Qantaga to interrogate Unagi(1)
Remus West to interrogate Unagi(2)
Lassr to interrogate Unagi(3)
bb2112 to interrogate Unagi(4)
Newcastle to interrogate Unagi(5)
Chaosraven to interrogate Unagi(6)

Individual vote history:
Qantaga : interrogate Unagi
Remus West : interrogate Unagi
Lassr : interrogate Unagi
bb2112 : interrogate Unagi
Newcastle : interrogate Unagi
Chaosraven : interrogate Unagi

Currently Targeted:
Unagi(6): Qantaga, Remus West, Lassr, bb2112, Newcastle, Chaosraven

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: El Guapo, Scoop20906, stessier, Unagi

Voting is closed.

[Grundbegriff]

Sorry. We were right in the middle of Seven Samurai!



At Svatá Klára, the only thing better than the beer is the food, and the only thing better than the food is the after-hours entertainment.

"Hello, my old friends" intones Unagi as he looks from mask to mask. Encircled by iterations of Guy Fawkes, he takes the seat of honor.

"What now? More Celine?"

One of the interrogators flips a switch, and the television comes to life. Everyone but Unagi turns away. His head held in place, he stares expectantly at the screen.

It's a re-run of last night's New Year's Eve special. And look! There's Carlos Santana! But wait-- he's doing ... a John Lennon duet with Bieber? And what's that? Lady Gaga joining hands with Michael Bloomberg? And who's that working the crowd? Jenny McCarthy?!

"STOP!" screams Unagi. "I think my brain's gonna explode! Here.... This is all I know."

Russia does not wish to enforce the no-fly zone.

Grimaces fixed on their artificial faces, the den of Fawkeses scatters into the darkness.


It is night
Union Bag, Rolf, Turtleneck, and Cardigan: Whom will you scan (by OO name)?
Turtleneck or Cardigan: Will you flee to the Drop Point?
Turtleneck or Cardigan: Will you block anyone (by OO name)?

[Grundbegriff]

Thank you for your patience. We have a few players who weren't quite ready to return from the holiday.

I expect to kick off Day 5 after supper (say, a couple of hours from now).

[Grundbegriff]

Turn FIVE: Morning


Goldman Saxon has 0 correct out of 15.
The Blusterberg Group has 0 correct out of 15.
KIM, Strike Force Umbrage, has 0 correct out of 15.


There are 20 clues in circulation, 2 per player across 10 players.
There are 18 discrete clues and 2 duplicates.
Items revealed through interrogation/torture so far: 3


Interrogation of Qantaga:
The nation that wishes to apply economic pressure has exactly 1 more asset than the covertly operating nation has.
Interrogation of Unagi:
The nation that wishes to apply economic pressure has exactly 1 more asset than the covertly operating nation has.
Interrogation of Remus West:
The planning nation has more assets than the United States.
Interrogation of Unagi:
Russia does not wish to enforce the no-fly zone.


You've risked your life. You've misplaced your wallet. You've stepped in gum.

Now you mean business.

Boilerplate:

Handlers: Will you submit a Solution?
Everyone: Whom will you interrogate?
Deadline: 9PM EST, Friday, 06 January 2012.

[Lagom Lite]

Russia does not wish to enforce the no-fly zone.

That's what she said.

[bb2112]

Since nobody else seems to be asking the obvious question...

We interrogated Unagi twice. Did we learn anything???? I mean aside from his "clue" of course...

So, do we interrogate/torture him again, or do we move on?

[Qantaga]

We interrogated Unagi twice. Did we learn anything???? I mean aside from his "clue" of course...

So, do we interrogate/torture him again, or do we move on?

I think we do need to interrogate/torture him.

1. We don't know if Unagi's first clue was submitted as an exact copy of mine to simulate a duplicate clue. We also don't know if his second clue is true or not.

2. It would be folly to allow KIM to use two interrogations with a false duplicate and a false clue, then to be left as the only holder of his two true clues.

3. If he is KIM, the next clue will be true.

4. Even if Unagi is not KIM, it would benefit KIM much more than us to move on to interrogate someone else, since we don't have any certainty of the false/true/misleading nature of Unagi's clues. In addition, there is a pretty good chance that, even if Unagi is not KIM, the KIM agent on Unagi's team has already figured that out and knows the nature of Unagi's clues, giving him a crucial step up on our Chiefs.

The only way to know definitively if Unagi is KIM or a member of a "good" team is to interrogate him again.

If he is KIM, we've severely hampered their chances. That is something that is very important to do, since they are gaining two clues to our Chiefs' one each night.

If he isn't KIM, then our Chiefs' will have certainty about Unagi's clues.

 Unagi 
 


The only reason (IMHO) not to interrogate/torture Unagi is if you are absolutely convinced that he is not KIM.

[bb2112]

If we do vote for Unagi again, then one of the following scenarios occur.

1. Unagi is KIM, is removed from his forum, and loses his scan tonight. One team can then share clues freely, while the other is still encumbered with their agent. Overall, it still slows down KIM.

2. Unagi is not KIM, he dies. Upside, we are then assured his 2 clues are not fabricated. However, the downside would be, if he dies, his team is then unbalanced, causing the other team to get a numbers advantage.

I can see why Q would vote this way, since he can be reasonably sure Unagi is not on his same team. He wins on the deal regardless of the outcome. Unagi loses on the deal regardless of the outcome. And it can strongly advantage one team over the other, so the rest of us are 50/50 whether it will be good or bad.

We have to find and kick out the KIM agents, but I don't think we can do it without pretty solid knowledge that Unagi is really KIM.

[Unagi]

I will die if you torture me.

I think I should only be tortured if:
Your Team's Handler told you that my clues were lies, but they weren't, and no Handler is going to tell their team that.

What I expect will happen is that perhaps 1 team does indeed know that I am not on their team and they will try and get me killed off.

If I was to be tortured anyhow - you guys totally wasted a day yesterday in interrogating me.

 Qantaga 
 

[Unagi]

since we don't have any certainty of the false/true/misleading nature of Unagi's clues.

I imagine both handler's already know that my clues were true.

[bb2112]

I will die if you torture me.

I think I should only be tortured if:
Your Team's Handler told you that my clues were lies, but they weren't, and no Handler is going to tell their team that.

And this is why I asked the question to the group. Do we know if you are lying? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

What I expect will happen is that perhaps 1 team does indeed know that I am not on their team and they will try and get me killed off.

I support this plan as long as you are on the other team and/or are KIM. As would you if the roles were reversed.

If I was to be tortured anyhow - you guys totally wasted a day yesterday in interrogating me.

Now with both of your clues available, you can be scanned to see if either are false by the team handlers. It is not a foregone conclusion you are going to be tortured. If it was, then we would have tortured you yesterday.

Grund, does a KIM agent have to use fake clues, or can they use their real clues just like anyone else?

If a KIM agent doesn't use a false clue, then it is going to be near impossible to identify them. Well, I guess there is always torture, but that seems like a very dangerous way to go.

[Lassr]

I think that we should wait on torturing Unagi because I'm not sure the info provided is of value yet.

Maybe we should get a few more clues first.

I'm open to opinions though. It's such a different game that the approach I'm used to in the WW games don't help much here.

Does knowing if Unagi is or is not KIM help right now compared to later? Or does it even matter?

[Qantaga]

since we don't have any certainty of the false/true/misleading nature of Unagi's clues.

I imagine both handler's already know that my clues were true.

I'm not sure that is true. The problem with that is two-fold:

1. Were I a handler, I would not be scanning you (or me) early on. I would want as many clues as possible (true or false) as quickly as possible. I (hypothetically, of course) might have scanned Remus, but only before his interrogation. Here's why:

A) If I scan you and your clues come back true, I know you're not KIM, but I have then wasted a scan, putting me a step further behind KIM and the other team.
B) If I scan you and a clue comes back false, I know you're KIM, but again, I've wasted a scan and all I've learned is the falsity of your claim, but I haven't unearthed a new clue, keeping me a step behind.

I would be, were I a handler, more inclined to scan non-interrogated people to have as much data as possible, hoping that the interrogations will reveal KIM or that, as I amass more clues, I can secretly discern the KIM lie, without my adversary handler knowing the lie.

2. Even if a handler had scanned you, they would have to out themselves, thus opening themselves up to a blocked scan (or two), to name you KIM.

Does knowing if Unagi is or is not KIM help right now compared to later? Or does it even matter?

The longer we wait, the more we play into KIM's hands:

KIM starts out with fewer clues, but gains clues at a faster rate.
The longer KIM agents can stay under cover, the faster they overcome their disadvantage and perhaps gain an edge.

[Qantaga]

If we do vote for Unagi again, then one of the following scenarios occur.

1. Unagi is KIM, is removed from his forum, and loses his scan tonight. One team can then share clues freely, while the other is still encumbered with their agent. Overall, it still slows down KIM.

2. Unagi is not KIM, he dies. Upside, we are then assured his 2 clues are not fabricated. However, the downside would be, if he dies, his team is then unbalanced, causing the other team to get a numbers advantage.

This is indeed an interesting conundrum.

The value of a pure forum is quite high. But, which is higher, the short term, massive value of the pure forum... or the long term, steady value of the numbers advantage?

Nicely set up Grund!

[Lassr]

If we do vote for Unagi again, then one of the following scenarios occur.

1. Unagi is KIM, is removed from his forum, and loses his scan tonight. One team can then share clues freely, while the other is still encumbered with their agent. Overall, it still slows down KIM.

2. Unagi is not KIM, he dies. Upside, we are then assured his 2 clues are not fabricated. However, the downside would be, if he dies, his team is then unbalanced, causing the other team to get a numbers advantage.

This is indeed an interesting conundrum.

The value of a pure forum is quite high. But, which is higher, the short term, massive value of the pure forum... or the long term, steady value of the numbers advantage?

Nicely set up Grund!

and that is what crossed my mind also...if the team knows their members then they could just start torturing everyone else at will.

[Grundbegriff]

Grund, does a KIM agent have to use fake clues, or can they use their real clues just like anyone else?

Here's the KIM boilerplate I composed before the game began:

First Time For Hardened

You're about to be interrogated. Here are your choices:

A: <text of your first clue>
B: <text of your second clue>

(1) Leave clue A alone, but substitute something for B.
(2) Leave clue B alone, but substitute something for A.
(3) Leave both clues alone (i.e., decline to exercise your Hardened Veteran ability)
(4) Substitute something for both A and B.

You must now choose exactly one of these options, whereupon I'll use random.org to flip a half dollar. This will determine whether the item divulged is from row A' or row B' below:
A': A (or whatever's in A's slot)
B': B (or whatever's in B's slot)

What would you like to do?


Second Time For Hardened

You're are about to be interrogated a second time.

Note: The crowd has voted to interrogate. This is not torture so your status as KIM will not automatically be revealed.

Your options are similar to those available the first time you were interrogated. That time, <reminder of prior choice>.

This time, the clue in play is not random; it's the one from the row not previously chosen by the coin toss: <text of clue not previously in play>

Your decision point is whether to

(a) allow it to be exposed unaltered
or
(b) swap it for another statement that you devise.

How would you like to play it?

[stessier]

We interrogated Unagi twice. Did we learn anything???? I mean aside from his "clue" of course...

So, do we interrogate/torture him again, or do we move on?

I think we do need to interrogate/torture him.

1. We don't know if Unagi's first clue was submitted as an exact copy of mine to simulate a duplicate clue. We also don't know if his second clue is true or not.

2. It would be folly to allow KIM to use two interrogations with a false duplicate and a false clue, then to be left as the only holder of his two true clues.

3. If he is KIM, the next clue will be true.

4. Even if Unagi is not KIM, it would benefit KIM much more than us to move on to interrogate someone else, since we don't have any certainty of the false/true/misleading nature of Unagi's clues. In addition, there is a pretty good chance that, even if Unagi is not KIM, the KIM agent on Unagi's team has already figured that out and knows the nature of Unagi's clues, giving him a crucial step up on our Chiefs.

The only way to know definitively if Unagi is KIM or a member of a "good" team is to interrogate him again.

If he is KIM, we've severely hampered their chances. That is something that is very important to do, since they are gaining two clues to our Chiefs' one each night.

If he isn't KIM, then our Chiefs' will have certainty about Unagi's clues.

 Unagi 
 


The only reason (IMHO) not to interrogate/torture Unagi is if you are absolutely convinced that he is not KIM.

Wow - I don't even know where to start.

If you feel this way, why did you not vote to torture yesterday? Getting a second clue and then voting to torture without someone pointing a finger at the person is the biggest waste of our resources ever.

KIM is a self identifying team becuase at some point they will leave our forums. Their silence will point them out to us. There is no reason to torture anyone unless we are certain they are KIM or someone points them out as KIM (setting up the standard WW challenge). As for the Chiefs - why do we have to worry know about what they think about the clues? Is anyone going to submit a solution before checking things out with their forum? And they presumably won't be checking in without being sure their forum is clean. And at that point, they will know a) whether Unagi is on their team and b) if he is not, whether or not he is KIM is easily deduced with a little help from the other team.

Because once a team identifies KIM, we should spend two days interrogating/torturing him. Most definitely not 3. I can't believe you'd even suggest it..

[stessier]

since we don't have any certainty of the false/true/misleading nature of Unagi's clues.

I imagine both handler's already know that my clues were true.

How and why? Are you suggesting both handlers scanned you twice? What a horrible waste of resources!!!

[stessier]

and that is what crossed my mind also...if the team knows their members then they could just start torturing everyone else at will.

They really can't. Each team only have 5 of the needed 6 votes. If a team dogpiles every vote, it will quickly become obvious and still requires someone from the other team to help them. The worst that could happen is a stalemate every day and that only helps KIM.

[stessier]

and that is what crossed my mind also...if the team knows their members then they could just start torturing everyone else at will.

They really can't. Each team only have 5 of the needed 6 votes. If a team dogpiles every vote, it will quickly become obvious and still requires someone from the other team to help them. The worst that could happen is a stalemate every day and that only helps KIM.

Ahh, I see. Yes, after the first person dies, a team will have an advantage. As long as KIM continues to vote with them of course.

[bb2112]

Ahh, I see. Yes, after the first person dies, a team will have an advantage. As long as KIM continues to vote with them of course.

In that case, why wouldn't the KIM agent keep voting torture; even if he accidently helps torture The mole in the other camp, that team is finished anyway. The tortured mole just then goes to KIM's own forum and waits for his partner to join him, basically cutting the teams down to 2.

I think this is the first time I've seen a fairly successful balance in a three team game. Will have to see how the rest of this plays out, but the dynamics so far have been very interesting

[Lassr]

Ahh, I see. Yes, after the first person dies, a team will have an advantage. As long as KIM continues to vote with them of course.

In that case, why wouldn't the KIM agent keep voting torture; even if he accidently helps torture The mole in the other camp, that team is finished anyway. The tortured mole just then goes to KIM's own forum and waits for his partner to join him, basically cutting the teams down to 2.

I think this is the first time I've seen a fairly successful balance in a three team game. Will have to see how the rest of this plays out, but the dynamics so far have been very interesting

So the question is; which team is Unagi on?

[stessier]

Ahh, I see. Yes, after the first person dies, a team will have an advantage. As long as KIM continues to vote with them of course.

In that case, why wouldn't the KIM agent keep voting torture; even if he accidently helps torture The mole in the other camp, that team is finished anyway. The tortured mole just then goes to KIM's own forum and waits for his partner to join him, basically cutting the teams down to 2.

I think this is the first time I've seen a fairly successful balance in a three team game. Will have to see how the rest of this plays out, but the dynamics so far have been very interesting

Because if one team is eliminated, the non-eliminated team has all the clue and votes it needs to finish the job. And since KIM can't submit a solution until they are both in their forum, they can't win without identifying themselves (in a roundabout way). It really isn't in KIM's advantage to unbalance the teams.

[stessier]

Didn't mean to kill the thread. We have a little over 24 hours left. Any more comments? If not, I think my vote is going to land on Q. I wonder if they aren't both KIM.

[Lassr]

sure why not. Let's squeeze that 2nd clue out of him.

I'll vote Q tomorrow if another train isn't started on someone else but I do not want to kill Unagi...at least not yet.

[Remus West]

sure why not. Let's squeeze that 2nd clue out of him.

I'll vote Q tomorrow if another train isn't started on someone else but I do not want to kill Unagi...at least not yet.

Lets torture Chaosraven. It'll be fun.

[Lassr]

sure why not. Let's squeeze that 2nd clue out of him.

I'll vote Q tomorrow if another train isn't started on someone else but I do not want to kill Unagi...at least not yet.

Lets torture Chaosraven. It'll be fun.

fun for him or us?

[El Guapo]

Kinda seems like we should torture *someone* to yield definitive information, right? Or else we're just picking up random clues that may or may not be true, and then the game's up to the handlers I guess. At least we'd know for sure one way or the other whether someone was KIM, and that would yield more informed information as to the KIM or not nature of others.

 Send Unagi to Gitmo where he would be treated in full accordance with the Geneva Conventions (wink wink) 
 


Though I'd be fine with torturing someone else as well. And if a handler wants to share any information relevant to this, that'd certainly influence the decision.

[Remus West]

sure why not. Let's squeeze that 2nd clue out of him.

I'll vote Q tomorrow if another train isn't started on someone else but I do not want to kill Unagi...at least not yet.

Lets torture Chaosraven. It'll be fun.

fun for him or us?

Ummm, I'll let you figure it out.

[bb2112]

 scoop 
 


Haven't heard from him in a while, so why not. Besides, after that Beiber avatar (yes, it still haunts me) he deserves to suffer.

[Grundbegriff]

Aggregate vote history:
Qantaga to torture Unagi(1)
Unagi to interrogate Qantaga(1)
El Guapo to torture Unagi(2)
bb2112 to interrogate Scoop20906(1)

Individual vote history:
Qantaga : torture Unagi
Unagi : interrogate Qantaga
El Guapo : torture Unagi
bb2112 : interrogate Scoop20906

Currently Targeted:
Unagi(2): Qantaga, El Guapo
Qantaga(1): Unagi
Scoop20906(1): bb2112

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: Chaosraven, Lassr, Newcastle, Remus West, Scoop20906, stessier

[Newcastle]

 El guapo 
 


why waterboard man...so so so uncool.

[stessier]

 El guapo 
 


why waterboard man...so so so uncool.

Why not me anymore?

Scoop and Chaos are excellent targets too. We don't have much time left. What way are people leaning? I'll vote Unagi rather than send our Chiefs to a night without a scan.

[Lassr]

 Qantaga