The Empire Strikes Back - Empire Victory

[Unagi]

I'll keep reading until I get caught up but I have a feeling my vote is going right back where it was yesterday. This is not "good" grundbegriff.

Wait.
I think you said that you have absolutely zero doubt that Grund is evil. Now you "have a feeling" that your vote is going right back?

[coopasonic]

That's the point of saying you "scanned Bubba, he is not an Imp" and nothing more . And, you know this.

Saying only "I found a Rebel" without any more texture than that would look fake or feeble. I want to give something concrete that people can invest their beliefs and reasoning in.

You see, I'd like us to win. And for all the noise and fog and obfuscation and flocculence, it all comes down to knowledge.

So, let in order for us (and by us here I assume you are implying Rebel and not Imperial in spite of the current train of your actions) to win you are creating MORE noise and fog and obfuscation?

I'll keep reading until I get caught up but I have a feeling my vote is going right back where it was yesterday. This is not "good" grundbegriff.

Been trying to tell you all this, but no one seems to be listening. A large number of rather good players seem to think listening to Evil Grundbegriff actually has some worth. Still don't get it.

The thing you are missing, which has already been pointed out to you is that even if grund turns out to be evil, listening to him can be very valuable. Just because we are listening and want to hear what he has to say, doesn't mean we are buying it. Information is everything.

[Remus West]

The facts here are that (if you are truly Talon), you are not only in danger of a night kill,

Anyone playing this game intelligently knows this to be inherently false. If Grundbegriff is Talon, the Imperials are going to be inclined to wait him out. If they kill him at night, they confirm his identity and verify his scans, and I think they fully expect that Unagi will be able to induce a daytime hanging of him instead.

Unagi? I thought it was theohall. Wait, I thought it was me. Which one of us is it trying to get grundbegriff lynched?

What a stupid comment, "the Imperials are going to wait him out". If he is actually Talon that may be the single most ridiculous claim yet. How long exactly do you suppose they wait him out? Are they also waiting you out? Wow.

[Scoop20906]

I think we need to get the Name of Grund's Rebel scan and then we use Purge to test Grund.

How did that work out for us yesterday?

If we don't wait til 2 hours before the deadline it has a very strong chance of working. As it was Purge was able to avoid what he "ageed" to do and continue to spoof being Yoda.

We need to set our own deadline days before the actual deadline this time if we really want to disprove or prove purge. We need trusted or dead imps. If Grund is Imp as I strongly suspect than both he, purge and trig will do everything in their power to winge out of this test.

Notice trig is desperate to be tested today instead of Grund? Why is that?

[triggercut]

The facts here are that (if you are truly Talon), you are not only in danger of a night kill,

Anyone playing this game intelligently knows this to be inherently false. If Grundbegriff is Talon, the Imperials are going to be inclined to wait him out. If they kill him at night, they confirm his identity and verify his scans, and I think they fully expect that Unagi will be able to induce a daytime hanging of him instead.

Unagi? I thought it was theohall. Wait, I thought it was me. Which one of us is it trying to get grundbegriff lynched?

What a stupid comment, "the Imperials are going to wait him out". If he is actually Talon that may be the single most ridiculous claim yet. How long exactly do you suppose they wait him out? Are they also waiting you out? Wow.

Here and I thought it was a provocative comment.

Shucks.

The line between provocative and...and... stupid....

[triggercut]

Notice trig is desperate to be tested today instead of Grund? Why is that?

Really? I am?

How am I more eager today than yesterday? Please give citations, which should include my current vote to hang Grundbegriff.

Scoop, if you're going to play badly, I understand. That's your thing.

If you're Empire, you should get your story straight, what's say?

[Unagi]

I think I may have heard some reference to his claim in a joking manner and was thus vaguely aware that something like that had happened, but didn't see that it was really a claim until tonight.

Is it safe to say you aren't being as Detectivey as Scoop then?

As for why all the discussion--I cannot be the only person who has noticed that Unagi and LordMortis are joined at the hip this game, all "hail fellow, well-met" to one another again and again.

It's not Lord Mortis' doing. That's all on me. I sorta funny-chummed-up with him at the beggining of the game a bit, (I wanted to see how he would react) and I just sorta kept doing it. I'm a child.

It's been like watching Josey Wales drag the mortally wounded Jamie across half of Missouri in here.

Pa? Is that you, Pa? I got the gold right here, Pa.

[triggercut]

I think I may have heard some reference to his claim in a joking manner and was thus vaguely aware that something like that had happened, but didn't see that it was really a claim until tonight.

Is it safe to say you aren't being as Detectivey as Scoop then?

Scoop is Scoop.

At the time of LM's declaration of his Wedge-ness, I had bigger fish to fry.

[Unagi]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

Lord Mortis takes all my notes, please send this to him.

[triggercut]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

Lord Mortis takes all my notes, please send this to him.

See? I knew it.

[Grundbegriff]

If they kill him at night, they confirm his identity and verify his scans, and I think they fully expect that Unagi will be able to induce a daytime hanging of him instead.

Unagi? I thought it was theohall. Wait, I thought it was me. Which one of us is it trying to get grundbegriff lynched?

Seriously?

What a stupid comment, "the Imperials are going to wait him out". If he is actually Talon that may be the single most ridiculous claim yet. How long exactly do you suppose they wait him out? Are they also waiting you out? Wow.

Heh. Yes, that's exactly what's going on. They're hoping to get me killed by day. I'm sure they'll eventually try to nuke me by night if plan A fails.

[Grundbegriff]

Anyone know when Chaosraven's shift ends? He seemed to want to do some analysis.

[Remus West]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

I still think that was a move only a good player makes. An Evil Isgrimnur would want a good grundbegriff to go to the noose. An Evil Isgrimnur would want credit for lynching an evil grundbegriff particularly when he could point out how easy it would have been to go after Unagi. Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil. Nice to know you'd like the group to keep him in the crosshairs though.

[Scoop20906]

The way I see it now..If we lynch Grund, then we find out if we can trust Triggercut. And maybe Grund will tell us the second person he scanned, if we are so lucky as to be deemed worthy.

I am sorry I didn't vote for you last turn

 Grund 
 

Wow. You're not even a weenie bit curious about my scan?

We've been through this before Grund. You love to expose your info in drips and drabs. I would not be shocked if tomorrow morning (real time) you say Bingo I lied and I scanned Unagi and he is a rotten stinking Imp. In fact, your theatrics are what I love about your game play but usually I only love it in retrospect. When i am in the middle of it it can really wear on me. I'll try to be patient (hence I've no vote on you for now).

If you have a gotcha moment coming please don't drag out much longer.

[Remus West]

Guys, this confusion is only going to continue until we resolve the Grund question. He has two scans to give us and if he is good they become mostly trusted by his death and if he is evil they certain go way up to the top of an already crowded threat list.

Mostly trusted? Interesting.

Without a clear candidate to test today, Grund is the most logical choice because his death has the potential to give us the most proven information.

How is grund himself not the clear candidate?

[Grundbegriff]

We've been through this before Grund. You love to expose your info in drips and drabs. I would not be shocked if tomorrow morning (real time) you say Bingo I lied and I scanned Unagi and he is a rotten stinking Imp.

You've been paying attention!

If you have a gotcha moment coming please don't drag out much longer.

Patience, grasshopper.

[Remus West]

I'll keep reading until I get caught up but I have a feeling my vote is going right back where it was yesterday. This is not "good" grundbegriff.

Wait.
I think you said that you have absolutely zero doubt that Grund is evil. Now you "have a feeling" that your vote is going right back?

Sarcasm doesn't translate well to type. That was me saying that all grund is doing right now is acting more and more Imperial. Although, zero was said in the heat of being highly annoyed at having caught grund with his hand in the cookie jar and being denied the lynch so I'd think you could accept the hyperbole.

[Grundbegriff]

Although, zero was said in the heat of being highly annoyed at having caught grund with his hand in the cookie jar

What cookie jar?

[Remus West]

The facts here are that (if you are truly Talon), you are not only in danger of a night kill,

Anyone playing this game intelligently knows this to be inherently false. If Grundbegriff is Talon, the Imperials are going to be inclined to wait him out. If they kill him at night, they confirm his identity and verify his scans, and I think they fully expect that Unagi will be able to induce a daytime hanging of him instead.

Unagi? I thought it was theohall. Wait, I thought it was me. Which one of us is it trying to get grundbegriff lynched?

What a stupid comment, "the Imperials are going to wait him out". If he is actually Talon that may be the single most ridiculous claim yet. How long exactly do you suppose they wait him out? Are they also waiting you out? Wow.

Here and I thought it was a provocative comment.

Shucks.

The line between provocative and...and... stupid....

I really am trying to keep back from the heat I had yesterday. Shouldn't have said stupid.

[Unagi]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

I still think that was a move only a good player makes. An Evil Isgrimnur would want a good grundbegriff to go to the noose. An Evil Isgrimnur would want credit for lynching an evil grundbegriff particularly when he could point out how easy it would have been to go after Unagi. Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil. Nice to know you'd like the group to keep him in the crosshairs though.

First, I still don't understand the vigor of your play yesterday. I want to talk about that more, because it kinda bothers me, but frankly it gets in the way of my thinking that Grundbegriff needs to be tested, so I really don't even feel like it.

Second, I had some similar thoughts regarding Isgrimnur's play - but I'm still perplexed by it, it's still sitting there.

Third, I am still thinking Scoop is evil and I'm starting to think he's trying to be best positioned for when the shit hits the fan. Or I'm missreading him terribly and he's got some other reason for all the lurking.

Fourth, you make these things to easy on yourself.... how can you lose??

Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil.

[triggercut]

BTW, my regretful vote remains on Grundbegriff, but I'm not happy about it.

(And yes, y'all: I would love to eat crow on that sentiment.)

[Scoop20906]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

I still think that was a move only a good player makes. An Evil Isgrimnur would want a good grundbegriff to go to the noose. An Evil Isgrimnur would want credit for lynching an evil grundbegriff particularly when he could point out how easy it would have been to go after Unagi. Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil. Nice to know you'd like the group to keep him in the crosshairs though.

That makes no sense. Do you even remember what Izzy did?

He put a vote on Grund and said he did it to even up the votes between Unagi and Grund. What? Then pulls his vote while we wait (futility) for Purge to prove/disprove his claim. How many dumb coincidences can we have in one game??????

[Remus West]

If they kill him at night, they confirm his identity and verify his scans, and I think they fully expect that Unagi will be able to induce a daytime hanging of him instead.

Unagi? I thought it was theohall. Wait, I thought it was me. Which one of us is it trying to get grundbegriff lynched?

Seriously?

Nope, we all are. You can tell by their votes and my belligerent attitude.

What a stupid comment, "the Imperials are going to wait him out". If he is actually Talon that may be the single most ridiculous claim yet. How long exactly do you suppose they wait him out? Are they also waiting you out? Wow.

Heh. Yes, that's exactly what's going on. They're hoping to get me killed by day. I'm sure they'll eventually try to nuke me by night if plan A fails.

Which isn't what he said. I'd agree Imperials might push for a true Talon during the day - once, when he came out. More likely they would leave him be during the day and take him out at night. Damage done before that point is to late to repair. The phrase "wait him out" implies giving Talon extra chances to find them and failing to find them provide trusteds after his death. Seers cut into the supply of shadows the bad guys use to hide in. No group of bad guys can afford to allow them to live for long (except maybe in CR's game if the bad guys were down to whomever Clayface and he just kept taking normal as his scan showing role).

[Remus West]

Although, zero was said in the heat of being highly annoyed at having caught grund with his hand in the cookie jar

What cookie jar?

The spoofing a role cookie jar. That is where I keep my oatmeal raisin cookies and you keep letting air in there which dries them out. I do not appreciate it.

[triggercut]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

I still think that was a move only a good player makes. An Evil Isgrimnur would want a good grundbegriff to go to the noose. An Evil Isgrimnur would want credit for lynching an evil grundbegriff particularly when he could point out how easy it would have been to go after Unagi. Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil. Nice to know you'd like the group to keep him in the crosshairs though.

That makes no sense. Do you even remember what Izzy did?

He put a vote on Grund and said he did it to even up the votes between Unagi and Grund. What? Then pulls his vote while we wait (futility) for Purge to prove/disprove his claim. How many dumb coincidences can we have in one game??????

Hey Scoop--how about me pushing to be lynched today--or your claim that I have.

Want to discuss that?

[El Guapo]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

I still think that was a move only a good player makes. An Evil Isgrimnur would want a good grundbegriff to go to the noose. An Evil Isgrimnur would want credit for lynching an evil grundbegriff particularly when he could point out how easy it would have been to go after Unagi. Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil. Nice to know you'd like the group to keep him in the crosshairs though.

I'm not sure that an evil Isgrimnur would prefer credit for lynching evil grund over a 'no lynch' cycle. However, I would think that evil Isgrimnur would have preferred to vote for a good Unagi when Unagi was at n-2 and Grund was at n-3, since that would probably have led to an Unagi lynch and I'm not sure Isgrimnur would have suffered too much blame for that.

[Grundbegriff]

BTW, my regretful vote remains on Grundbegriff, but I'm not happy about it.

(And yes, y'all: I would love to eat crow on that sentiment.)

You will, in due time. However, I will not be the lynch today.

[triggercut]

BTW, my regretful vote remains on Grundbegriff, but I'm not happy about it.

(And yes, y'all: I would love to eat crow on that sentiment.)

You will, in due time. However, I will not be the lynch today.

This game just keep getting more and more entertaining.

[Grundbegriff]

Although, zero was said in the heat of being highly annoyed at having caught grund with his hand in the cookie jar

What cookie jar?

The spoofing a role cookie jar. That is where I keep my oatmeal raisin cookies and you keep letting air in there which dries them out. I do not appreciate it.

Since I'm not spoofing, how could I have been "caught with [my] hand" in that jar?

Is there some specific comment or incident that makes you think I'm imperial?

[Scoop20906]

Unagi, I'm not lurking. You are just going to have to get used to my new play style and schedule. I used to be able to post reems of posts while at work. Heck, OO forum games were my salvation at work. Then the friggen block at work came and then I got really frustrated because it was a big change of pace for me. Most of my OO time was at work.

Now, by the time I get home after working out I need a nap and dinner and then I finally get onto OO and I have pages of posts to scan through. By the time I finish I'm feeling like I need a break and therefore I don't post as much as in the past.

I still love playing with you guys but I just have to learn how to effectively play with the changes.

In fact I'm posting thus from my phone while on a train to Chicago. Chop choo!

[Remus West]

Unagi, don't forget Izzy. If Grund is evil and spoofing then Izzy was the one to pull his vote late thereby save Grund at the final bell.

I still think that was a move only a good player makes. An Evil Isgrimnur would want a good grundbegriff to go to the noose. An Evil Isgrimnur would want credit for lynching an evil grundbegriff particularly when he could point out how easy it would have been to go after Unagi. Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil. Nice to know you'd like the group to keep him in the crosshairs though.

First, I still don't understand the vigor of your play yesterday. I want to talk about that more, because it kinda bothers me, but frankly it gets in the way of my thinking that Grundbegriff needs to be tested, so I really don't even feel like it.

Whenever you're ready. I went back and read a lot of yesterday and am sort of irritated by me. I agree with my position but did not like the way I went about stating it. I'm trying to not do that today.

Second, I had some similar thoughts regarding Isgrimnur's play - but I'm still perplexed by it, it's still sitting there.

The other thing I keep in mind about Isgrimnur's play is that, as El Guapo (I think?) pointed out, it really doesn't make sense for a good guy either. It is simply my feeling that it is actively working against his team if he is evil regardless of what grundbegriff is.

Third, I am still thinking Scoop is evil and I'm starting to think he's trying to be best positioned for when the shit hits the fan. Or I'm missreading him terribly and he's got some other reason for all the lurking.

I agree.

Fourth, you make these things to easy on yourself.... how can you lose??

Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil.

I don't get it.

[WarPig]

You will, in due time. However, I will not be the lynch today.

 Grundbegriff 
 


...because I've got to, mister!

[Scoop20906]

DUH. He completely trusted you before you said, "I am Empire, obviously." No, we have not forgotten, Naru TriggerGun. Keep on trying to deceive us.

So hang me.

This is what I was referring to trig and I wrote that before your vote on Grund.

So, sue me. (smiley face here, not written rudely)

[Remus West]

Anyone know when Chaosraven's shift ends? He seemed to want to do some analysis.

Ummm, I know he has Friday off. Which isn't really helpful. I thought he was working days this week so should have been done around 7. I could be wrong though. Mostly we get told which days he will probably be available for gaming. Such as this Friday.

[Scoop20906]

BTW, my regretful vote remains on Grundbegriff, but I'm not happy about it.

(And yes, y'all: I would love to eat crow on that sentiment.)

You will, in due time. However, I will not be the lynch today.

This game just keep getting more and more entertaining.

We can both agree on that. This is starting to drift into best game evar territory.

[Remus West]

BTW, my regretful vote remains on Grundbegriff, but I'm not happy about it.

(And yes, y'all: I would love to eat crow on that sentiment.)

You will, in due time. However, I will not be the lynch today.

Interesting claim given you are by far the most likely candidate. Not happy with how your "I found a special" gambit is playing out?

[Grundbegriff]

BTW, my regretful vote remains on Grundbegriff, but I'm not happy about it.

(And yes, y'all: I would love to eat crow on that sentiment.)

You will, in due time. However, I will not be the lynch today.

Interesting claim given you are by far the most likely candidate. Not happy with how your "I found a special" gambit is playing out?

Delighted!

[triggercut]

I don't know about anyone else, but in my mind's ear I like to hear Wallace Shawn's voice as "The Sicilian" at this point with Grundbegriff.

[Unagi]

I'm not sure that an evil Isgrimnur would prefer credit for lynching evil grund over a 'no lynch' cycle. However, I would think that evil Isgrimnur would have preferred to vote for a good Unagi when Unagi was at n-2 and Grund was at n-3, since that would probably have led to an Unagi lynch and I'm not sure Isgrimnur would have suffered too much blame for that.

hmmm. I still trust you El Guapo, but you did just sorta wig me out.

Do you basically trust in my good alignment right now?


Regarding the Isgrimnur vote against Grund (and hence, saving me), it shocked me.
Every time I try and guess what it is that he was up to, I write out a few scenarios, they are all over the board, and then delete them. I'm at a loss as to what really drove it all.

[Unagi]

Only if grundbegriff, Unagi, and Isgrimnur are all evil do I see Isgrimnur as being evil.

I read that like this:

IF (Grund=Evil & Unagi=Evil & Isgrimnur=Evil) THEN set Isgrimnur=Evil


Your condition for applying "evil" to Isgrimnur includes him being evil.... although - perhaps you are saying that if Either (Grund OR Unagi) are Good - then you don't see Isgrimnur as Evil.


I don't actually like to buy into absolutes like that, but I can see your point on it. That would force me to conclude he's not evil. I'm not there yet.