Justice League Loses... VILLAINS WIN

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El Guapo
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY ONE

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:I doubt Scoop is the Joker, seems like a good power to use to kill one of us, but the convert power sounds a zillion times better.

Joker - the Joker has a bomb. A very nasty Bomb. If Lynched, the Joker may use the bomb to kill any one Player of his choosing. If alive, may convert any Player to Harley Quin once per game instead of them being killed at Night (this can override Killer Croc if Night Kill target doesn't Change)

Of course, he only get's one or the other, so I guess he might have made the decision to bomb the good guys on day one when the train started. Hmmmm....
An RMC contribution during the Day 1 Scoop train (which I had forgotten about). Doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by Scoop20906 »

Oh I didn't flip a coin. My gut screams Grund but RMC is the devil so I went with him.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by El Guapo »

Scoop20906 wrote:Oh I didn't flip a coin. My gut screams Grund but RMC is the devil so I went with him.
That doesn't seem like a terribly solid reason. Seems like we should play the odds, which points towards Grund, even if there's a material risk that RMC is the devil.

Incidentally, is he the devil? I suppose it sort of matters for this analysis whether the Red Rocket spoof is something that RMC would do.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by Scoop20906 »

El Guapo wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:Oh I didn't flip a coin. My gut screams Grund but RMC is the devil so I went with him.
That doesn't seem like a terribly solid reason. Seems like we should play the odds, which points towards Grund, even if there's a material risk that RMC is the devil.

Incidentally, is he the devil? I suppose it sort of matters for this analysis whether the Red Rocket spoof is something that RMC would do.
I really didn't go into before but RMC is the master of looking innocent while Grund is the master of looking devious.

You are right the odds might be better that Grund is lying but ... well, I'm 60% wrong 95% of the time so I went with the odds that I don't know what I am talking about.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY ONE

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:So Scoop could just want to prove himself, right? There are two heroes that are proven if we lynch/kill them. Not sure why he would off himself, but I guess it would fit into Scoop's, Scoopness.

Miracle Man - the FIRST time he dies, will come back to life the Following same Phase (ie if Killed at Night, rises the Next Night, if DAY, the next DAY)

Superman - Superman cannot be Lynched the FIRST time. An attempt to do so will reveal Superman to all and does count as the lynch that day. When Superman has been revealed in this fashion, he can use his X-Ray vision to identify (Role) the First Player that voted for him. Superman can still be killed at Night by the Villains (they have Kryptonite Bullets), but CANNOT be converted to Harley Quinn unless NEGATED by SInestros Ring.

Those are the two that I think could be proven by us lynching Scoop. <shrug>
Another RMC post on the Scoop train, when Scoop was threatening to Scoop himself at n-1. This one seems reasonable enough.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by El Guapo »

Scoop20906 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:Oh I didn't flip a coin. My gut screams Grund but RMC is the devil so I went with him.
That doesn't seem like a terribly solid reason. Seems like we should play the odds, which points towards Grund, even if there's a material risk that RMC is the devil.

Incidentally, is he the devil? I suppose it sort of matters for this analysis whether the Red Rocket spoof is something that RMC would do.
I really didn't go into before but RMC is the master of looking innocent while Grund is the master of looking devious.

You are right the odds might be better that Grund is lying but ... well, I'm 60% wrong 95% of the time so I went with the odds that I don't know what I am talking about.
I will say that RMC referred to Chicago as "Chi Town" earlier in this thread. Is that common? Sounds kind of douchey to me.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY ONE

Post by El Guapo »

Grundbegriff wrote: stessier 
 
Just to interrupt with a Grund post, he broke his day 1 silence to vote for stessier without explanation when stessier was honing in on Vorret.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY ONE

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:
Vorret wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:But everybody thinks what I did was stupid. We have to ignore everything we learned from stunt. Then only then will we bring order to the Galaxy.
I don't think that is entirely accurate in the macro sense. Once you became a target you pretty much had to come out, you did that. You created a lot of interaction and that was good. The only real issue I had was you practically held the village hostage because we couldn't move on until we figured out what was going on with you. We couldn't take the chance if we had a villain in hand to let it go, especially with a potential conversion. So don't think your move was a total failure, there was definitely some good that came out of it. Now that it is resolved, we have to go back to finding evil.
Agreed.

Anyone wondering why Grund popped out of nowhere to place a vote on Stessier and disappeared again?
Grund seems to always be that way in the first few days. I think he likes to stir the pot and see who does what with whom he voted for. <shrug> I actually don't see anything weird with that.

BB seems like a good target to me today, as well as maybe Reums, but the odds are against him being bad...again.... They are both active, and both are being helpful. When 2/3rds of the Detroit crew is being helpful, and not zinging each other too much, that means that they are on the same team, or hiding in the weeds. Just my thought. :)
RMC does point at BB and "Reums" (whoever that is) on day 1, which are obviously both heroes, although it was day 1 with not much info.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY ONE

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:I am fine with frying the Canadian bacon if that is what everyone else wants to do. I still would rather vote for one of the Detroit crew though. :)
In this case I think it really should be:  BB2112 
 
This is more interesting, as it's a vote for a (now known to be) innocent while the Vorret train was gaining steam.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY ONE

Post by El Guapo »

Grundbegriff wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:Fascinating.
Surprised?
A bit. He wasn't among those who seemed most suspicious to me.

El Guapo looks awfully shady in that vote dance-- just the sort of behavior that landed him atop my list in the first place.
I disagree. El Guapo could have gone in a different direction after Vorret came out with his nobody claim very easily.
I would consider your argument, but you're also atop my list!
It seems there are enough people at this time who would like to vote for you. Or at least say they will. The fact he didn't jump and came back to stick Vorret at N-1 again, and keep him there until the final vote a couple days later, tells me the opposite.
Those are just the usual rumblings. I'm not at early risk.
Then there's this nonsense by Grund, after Vorret was lynched. I still don't know how one would look at day 1 and put me atop the suspicion list.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY TWO weeks later

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:Well this seems simple enough.

 Moliere 
 
RMC did put Moliere at n-1, though Moliere was *probably* already doomed at this point.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY TWO weeks later

Post by El Guapo »

Chaosraven wrote:(5) Moliere - bb2112, Grundbegriff, stessier, Remus West, stessier, RMC, Scoop20906

Voting closed
Final Morliere vote. Both candidates on the train. Grund was second on that train, so he probably gets a little more credit for that.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Night Two

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:
stessier wrote:I think Remus is the last one. My problem is I always think it is Remus. :)

But looking back, I don't think it is bb2112. I don't think it is Grund. I'd be willin to test El Guapo, but think it will be a miss. RMC hasn't been around enough for any sort of read. Still, I think it is Remus.
It's always Remus, or one of the Detroit crew. So I would vote for Remus.
One suspicious thing that comes through RMC's limited posts is that he hangs onto this Detroit crew thing almost from the beginning to the end of the game, which comes across looking like a suspiciously non-substantive (and mostly non-committal) reason for voting and pushing for a lynch.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

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El Guapo wrote:Anyone else feeling like RMC is the final villain?
This will make me feel like an idiot if we vote Grund off the island and it's RMC.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:Depending on what the last special is, they might not want to come out..

This one in particular:

Rocket Red - If Attacked by the Villains, will CONVERT to Villain (Replacing the Kill). If a Special Ability used by a Villain would Kill RR, he is instead CONVERTED to Villain. If One of the Hawks is a VILLAIN, the ability counts as VILLAINOUS.
RMC floats the Rocket Red reveal prior to making it...
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by Chaosraven »

(2) RMC - Grundbegriff, Scoop90210
(1) Grundbegriff - RMC

Majority is 3
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:There are a few heroes that if they reveal might give the villains help. (As El Guapo illustrated)

IE - the one that converts if attacked by villains, or the ones that elude a night attack.

So do we really want them to come forward? I mean we have a few days to play with, so even just killing someone randomly gives us a decent chance of winning. Especially if we have one of the heroes that can elude an attack at night, right? I mean worst case, we settle on one of the unexposed heroes and they claim a role, then we either back off, or kill them to see if they were really a villain.

Or am I making this too simple?
I will say that RMC's "should I come out?" pondering comes off to me as genuine, FWIW.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by Grundbegriff »

El Guapo wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Anyone else feeling like RMC is the final villain?
This will make me feel like an idiot if we vote Grund off the island and it's RMC.
I would like to associate myself with the remarks of the senator from Guapia!
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by El Guapo »

El Guapo wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
stessier wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:
"Use of the Ring does Not Reveal Sinestro to the Public, only to Green Lantern."
Does "Reveal" here mean "reveal the identity of" or merely "reveal the existence of"?
I would only know he existed, not who he was. Same the other way too.
Though wait, doesn't Sinestro start the game knowing if Green Lantern is in the game? Wouldn't that suggest that Green Lantern's specific identity gets revealed? Otherwise the ring usage identity thing would be a nullity.
No, idiot. Sinestro starts the game knowing whether GL is in the game, but GL doesn't start knowing whether Sinestro is. But when and if Sinestro uses his ring, then GL finds out that Sinestro is. So it's not redundant.
El Guapo's rebuking himself.
Harvey?
I just realized five minutes after I posted that I was stupidly wrong.
Seems like orc mischief.
Orc mischief?
I still don't understand what Orc mischief is. Grund is poking me here a little bit, although it's not unjustified after my argument with myself.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:Im just wanting RMC to get it over with.
Okay, I am the most worthless hero in the game, Rocket Red. (I have been a little heavy handed recently in suggesting it, honestly.)

I have been trying to keep a low profile so as not to attract the villains attention. I figured if I got lynched by the good guys, not a big deal. But if I get converted, then it's one more bad guy for you guys to worry about.

I suggest you lynch me today, and hope you find the villain in the next day.
And here's the reveal. Presumably the "heavy handed" suggesting part that RMC refers to is his earlier "should Rocket Red really come out?" posts.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by Grundbegriff »

El Guapo wrote:I still don't understand what Orc mischief is.
Referent: starting at 2m 30s.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by El Guapo »

Grundbegriff wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:Why did you wait til now to speak up Grund?
To see whether we could arrive at a state where there were more professing Good Specials than possible Good Special slots.

There's a maximum of 4 Good.

Scoop is Captain Marvel. (Proven)
Isgrimnur was Dr Fate. (As good as proven, given the successful transfer of intel.)
stessier claims to be Green Lantern. (dodgy)

Knowing I'm EM, I also know that any further claim to Good Specialhood would put us at 5. Since that's impossible, either stessier or the newcomer would have to be faking. And it has been so long since we relied on the breadcrumb method of validation that I decided early-- once I realized my role was unprovable-- to leave a bunch of crumbs in case a situation just like this one arose.
Grund explains his claimed trap play.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by El Guapo »

RMC wrote:
stessier wrote:Well this is interesting.
And you are the one who wanted to 'save' your power. So Stress, who I was not suspecting, might be the best one to lynch, after you lynch me. Assuming that Grund is not doing some type of weird team evil coming out party, but it makes no sense for him to do that imho.

So I say that Stress is the last bad guy, but I am a liability if left alive, unfortunately.
Another thing that's interesting about RMC's Red Rocket play on day 3 is that he not only says that it would make sense to lynch him, he says that you guys should definitely lynch me, and he repeats it several times.

It sort of adds to the ballsiness factor of concluding that RMC is the final villain. Would he claim Red Rocket when not under immediate duress, AND say you should lynch me, AND do that several times?
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by El Guapo »

Grundbegriff wrote:In other words: either RMC is evil and lying or you're evil and cornered.

I suspect the latter, but I think RMC is the sensible lynch no matter what-- for the same reason RMC himself provided.
Grund pushing RMC + stessier as the final lynches.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by Grundbegriff »

El Guapo wrote:It sort of adds to the ballsiness factor of concluding that RMC is the final villain. Would he claim Red Rocket when not under immediate duress, AND say you should lynch me, AND do that several times?
Yep. And would it make sense for me to pick that person-- one who had set himself up as very plausibly what he claims, one who reeks innocence, one with no handles to twist-- as the one that makes me say, "Yep! I definitely should try to frame that!" rather than stay silent?
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by RMC »

Team evil wins with a RMC vote. Let the good guys win with a Grund vote.

That's what we should all do. Let team good win with a vote for Grund.

:)
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by Grundbegriff »

Team evil wins with a Grundbegriff vote. Let the good guys win with an RMC vote.

That's what we should all do. Let team good win with a vote for RMC.

:)
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by Scoop20906 »

RMC wrote:Team evil wins with a RMC vote. Let the good guys win with a Grund vote.

That's what we should all do. Let team good win with a vote for Grund.

:)
I'm glad you finally said something.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by El Guapo »

Grundbegriff wrote:
El Guapo wrote:It sort of adds to the ballsiness factor of concluding that RMC is the final villain. Would he claim Red Rocket when not under immediate duress, AND say you should lynch me, AND do that several times?
Yep. And would it make sense for me to pick that person-- one who had set himself up as very plausibly what he claims, one who reeks innocence, one with no handles to twist-- as the one that makes me say, "Yep! I definitely should try to frame that!" rather than stay silent?
To me it comes down to day 4. You pretty much certainly survive day 3 staying silent (RMC is the highly probable lynch choice). But you can't come out day 4, because that would look incredibly suspicious after the cattle call on day 3 (when we said, among other things, that anyone coming out after day 3 would get lynched). Coming out day 3 could set up an RMC - stessier day 3 and 4 chain, as on day 4 you would then say "well, turns out stessier is the fake hero".

That's the possibility, anyhow.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by RMC »

Scoop20906 wrote:
RMC wrote:Team evil wins with a RMC vote. Let the good guys win with a Grund vote.

That's what we should all do. Let team good win with a vote for Grund.

:)
I'm glad you finally said something.
You told me you had heard enough from me, so I was letting you make up your own mind as you told us too.

<shrug> Not a whole lot more I can say or do to prove my role.
Man, I wish I was as ballsy as you guys keep saying I am. I would so be a VP already instead of just a lousy manager. :)
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by Grundbegriff »

It came down to exactly one consideration for me: I knew myself to be Elongated Man, and Too Many Superheroes™ bubbled up in the environment. I wasn't even sure whether RMC or stessier was the perp; I just knew at that point that I had to go all in.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY TWO weeks later

Post by El Guapo »

El Guapo wrote:
Chaosraven wrote:(5) Moliere - bb2112, Grundbegriff, stessier, Remus West, stessier, RMC, Scoop20906

Voting closed
Final Morliere vote. Both candidates on the train. Grund was second on that train, so he probably gets a little more credit for that.
Addendum: I somehow managed to forget that the Moliere train was driven by a proven hero supplying information that could only have been provided by a dead (and therefore proven) Dr. Fate.

No points are awarded to either candidate.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by Grundbegriff »

RMC wrote:You told me you had heard enough from me, so I was letting you make up your own mind as you told us too.
<shrug> Not a whole lot more I can say or do to prove my role.
Man, I wish I was as ballsy as you guys keep saying I am. I would so be a VP already instead of just a lousy manager. :)
You are a master of this aw shucks Mayberry humility shtick!
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by El Guapo »

ANYWAY - to sum up the posts analysis. Obviously we have very little posts from either candidate, so the informational value is somewhat limited.

For RMC - the most suspicious things from his posts are his limited posts (somewhat explicable, perhaps, as Rocket Red), and his fixation on the "Detroit crew".

For Grund - the most suspicious things are, again, limited posts (admittedly not unusual for Grund) and his throwing shade on me early in night 1 / day 2.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by RMC »

Grundbegriff wrote:It came down to exactly one consideration for me: I knew myself to be Elongated Man, and Too Many Superheroes™ bubbled up in the environment. I wasn't even sure whether RMC or stessier was the perp; I just knew at that point that I had to go all in.
And I did not want to reveal as the worst Superhero of all time. I know it left the opportunity for the final villain to spoof, but I really figured the worse that would happen was I got lynched.
But then you guys lynched poor Stess and I hoped he was on team evil. <shrug>

Grund is awesome, I will give him that. He has made a case for me as the villain, when really he set himself up as the ultimate spoofer. He planted bread crumbs, and came out after me, to 'prove' I was the villain. El Guapo has seen through the breadcrumbs.

I can't make the case against Grund any better than the two of you have done already. I also can't make my own case any better. So I'll let El Guapo decide who is telling the truth.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by RMC »

Grundbegriff wrote:
RMC wrote:You told me you had heard enough from me, so I was letting you make up your own mind as you told us too.
<shrug> Not a whole lot more I can say or do to prove my role.
Man, I wish I was as ballsy as you guys keep saying I am. I would so be a VP already instead of just a lousy manager. :)
You are a master of this aw shucks Mayberry humility shtick!
Dude I live in a little place called Grafton, Ohio, and I actually bought the house I grew up in from my mother. I am from Mayberry. :)

I did travel the world in the service, and went away to college, but other than that. Mayberry.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by Grundbegriff »

RMC wrote:Grund is awesome, I will give him that. He has made a case for me as the villain, when really he set himself up as the ultimate spoofer. He planted bread crumbs, and came out after me, to 'prove' I was the villain.
Wrong. There's not much of a case to make against you, and I've said as much.
So I'll let El Guapo decide who is telling the truth.
Yep. It's all on El Guapo now.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day Three

Post by Grundbegriff »

And if there's some weird nuance in the rules, where you and I are both good and there are 5 specials and El Guapo is evil, I'm going to fly to Detroit? and punch Chaosraven.
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Re: Justice League the Next Generation DAY ONE

Post by El Guapo »

Ok, one final posts post, as I went back to double-check who was on the Vorret train (of course neither RMC nor Grund were, so tie score there). And re-read this:
Grundbegriff wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:So why not Grund?
Because I'm a nice guy.
Grundbegriff wrote:Ok.... I've (re)read the surprisingly long day-one thread. I don't really want to offer up a protracted argument, so I'll just say that the ones I find most creepy at the moment, in descending order of creepitude, are:
  • Moliere
  • El Guapo
  • bb2112
In addition to keeping a low profile on the first day, I also seldom change my vote, if I offer one, on the first day. However, in the spirit of expanding my horizons, I'd be willing to move it from Moliere to El Guapo. I'm interested in addressing bb8 only after we've figured out one of those two.
He did vote for Moliere (based on "creepitude") before it was cool. Though, in declining to put the kill vote on Vorret, offered to (in a rare display) shift his day 1 vote to myself. So there's that.
Black Lives Matter.
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El Guapo
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:01 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Justice League the Next Generation Day 4

Post by El Guapo »

Scoop - I'd like to hear your thoughts on my post analysis. For what it's worth, based on day 1 and day 2 posts alone, I would vote for RMC. Though as noted there's not a TON of posts to go on.

But that runs into the Occam's razor that the guy claiming Red Rocket and inviting to be lynched is probably not the final villain.
Black Lives Matter.
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