Secret Hitler

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:52 pm

Hitler, I'm curious: at what point did you feel sure that you knew the other Fascists?

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:55 pm

Holman wrote:Hitler, I'm curious: at what point did you feel sure that you knew the other Fascists?

When I passed you FL and you enacted L I then knew you were L so Chaos was L as well so that made some other very likely F (bb and El G)
Before that, I had no idea.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:56 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:
Moliere wrote:So I managed to select a fascist as my Chancellor (Scoop) and Hitler to be the next President (Vorret).
If it makes you feel better I thoroughly enjoyed screwing you over b

How did you screw me over? I still managed to pass a Liberal policy via my selection of Vorret and win the game with my selection of Holman. All the other fascist tickets I was part of were successfully negated.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:03 pm

Moliere wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:
Moliere wrote:So I managed to select a fascist as my Chancellor (Scoop) and Hitler to be the next President (Vorret).
If it makes you feel better I thoroughly enjoyed screwing you over b
How did you screw me over? I still managed to pass a Liberal policy via my selection of Vorret and win the game with my selection of Holman. All the other fascist tickets I was part of were successfully negated.

Lying about what cards you gave me. I didn't get to act very fascist this game.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:11 pm

I'm assuming no one trusted me or Remus?

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:13 pm

stessier wrote:I'm assuming no one trusted me or Remus?

By default.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:18 pm

Moliere wrote:So I managed to select a fascist as my Chancellor (Scoop) and Hitler to be the next President (Vorret).

Making Hitler president actually screwed the fascists over. Vorret did a great job staying trusted, so I thought we were in great shape once we had three policies. Then you made him president, and Vorret wound up being ineligible to be chancellor for like 80% of the rest of the game.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:19 pm

Vorret wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:I was hoping on Vorret last ticket he could pass two FF to Holman. Didn't have the cards I guess.
I could have that's the thing, I thought about it for a while, I wanted to get trusted enough to get elected by Holman and win the game so I passed him FL, gets me trust and if by chance he's F (he could have been) it would have given us the victory.

SAdly it wasn't the case , there's a few things I'd do differently over the course of the game but needed to be trusted while also trying to win for the baddies was very interesting.

IMO you should definitely have passed FF, then executed Holman or CR.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:23 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Vorret wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:I was hoping on Vorret last ticket he could pass two FF to Holman. Didn't have the cards I guess.
I could have that's the thing, I thought about it for a while, I wanted to get trusted enough to get elected by Holman and win the game so I passed him FL, gets me trust and if by chance he's F (he could have been) it would have given us the victory.

SAdly it wasn't the case , there's a few things I'd do differently over the course of the game but needed to be trusted while also trying to win for the baddies was very interesting.
IMO you should definitely have passed FF, then executed Holman or CR.

He didn't know Holman was liberal at the time. The Fascists really have to be Liberals to see how frustrating this game is.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:25 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Moliere wrote:So I managed to select a fascist as my Chancellor (Scoop) and Hitler to be the next President (Vorret).
Making Hitler president actually screwed the fascists over. Vorret did a great job staying trusted, so I thought we were in great shape once we had three policies. Then you made him president, and Vorret wound up being ineligible to be chancellor for like 80% of the rest of the game.

Yep, looking back Moliere really won the game on that move. NICE JOB.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:02 pm

stessier wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:To clarify:
We have Moliere who has nominated Holman.
Chaosraven, Holman, Remus West, stessier, and Vorret will affirm this ticket.
I doubt that, but I bet Moliere would vote for it, so it's all good.

How does Vorret keep creeping into my official proclamations?!

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:03 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:I was hoping on Vorret last ticket he could pass two FF to Holman. Didn't have the cards I guess.

He did. I believe he made a mistake. Which is how we learn!

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:04 pm

Holman wrote:I do wish I hadn't pissed off Grund there today. I meant no harm and no advantage.

Truly no big deal. It was clear you weren't jockeying for an advantage.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:11 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
Moliere wrote:So I managed to select a fascist as my Chancellor (Scoop) and Hitler to be the next President (Vorret).
Making Hitler president actually screwed the fascists over. Vorret did a great job staying trusted, so I thought we were in great shape once we had three policies. Then you made him president, and Vorret wound up being ineligible to be chancellor for like 80% of the rest of the game.
Yep, looking back Moliere really won the game on that move. NICE JOB.

Yes. The problem with Vorret's playing FL rather than FF in an effort to stay "trusted" and maybe get elected as chancellor is that he wasn't eligible to be chosen as chancellor during the remaining lifetime of his waning trust.
Sometimes, a Fascist just has to brute force his way to victory!

Other observations from the perspective of the mod: nearly all stessier's labor on spreadsheets was wasted, it seems to me. At no point (before he gave up) did he accurately assess the state of the game.

Also: bb2112 received LLF but claimed LFF early on, and this good move threw off everyone's expecations about how many L cards were still available.

Vorret: seemed innocent and angelic-- a perfect Hitler in demeanor.

Fascists: really played your side of the ambiguity well to cast doubt on the apparently trustworthy.

The game: would like to try it with votes that take 30 seconds instead of 30 hours.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:19 pm

As for length I became comfortable with the ebb and flow of elections after I set my expectations.

A lot was learned from both sides. I'm terrified of being a liberal and my knowing anything in a game like this.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:34 pm

Another random obsv: the shuffling technique I chose made a difference. I can see it going either way.

Strictly enforcing the "reshuffle as soon as only two cards are left" technique consistently prevents everyone from "reading the deck".
Loosely enforcing the technique (by applying it only to the first reshuffle) might allow folks in the second half of the game to figure out exactly what's in the deck.

So loose enforcement could be seen as introducing more information (to the deductively inclined) as the game progresses, and that may or may not be desirable.

(When there were 4 cards, they were FFLL. I dealt the top two and then reshuffled the LL into the pile of discards to create Deck 3. With loose enforcement, I would've just dealt FFL, and the game would've ended on that turn rather than proceeding to the veto turn.)

(Note: an equivalent way to handle strict enforcement is to always discard the bottom two cards of the shuffled deck immediately after any shuffle, and then to consume the entirety of whatever remains before reshuffling the discards.)

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:36 pm

It seemed as if the game was frustrating. Does everyone agree with that sentiment?

More importantly, did you have fun, or did it seem like a chore? Is Secret Hitler a good game?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:46 pm

I really did enjoy it. It was frustrating, but more in a way that made things tense than in a way that seemed broken or confusing. Part of the fun was figuring out the dynamics as we moved forward. We were fortunate (for Fun purposes) that our Fascists didn't try for a brute-force win.

So much depended on the card play that this game is less driven by narrative and competing claims than Werewolf is. Secret Hitler is probably better live in one evening than on a forum for one month.

Thank you for moderating!

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:51 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:It seemed as if the game was frustrating. Does everyone agree with that sentiment?

More importantly, did you have fun, or did it seem like a chore? Is Secret Hitler a good game?

I had fun and did not see it as a chore. I think I'd need to play a few more times to tell if it is a good game.

As for frustrating, it is and I'm not sure how to feel about it. Holman and Chaos could have been anything until their Admin vetoed. I'm guessing every game will be like that - most know nothing until the very end. It seems unlikely either side will ever win or lose quickly - which could be seen as a plus. I'll have to think on it some more.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:07 pm

A tough game when you don't know who to trust. When I picked Holman in the end and you announced that Hitler had been elected Chancellor, well, let's just say it was NSFW in my house for a few seconds.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:11 pm

I was determined to use the Hitler graphics.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:46 pm

This game was tense. I loved it!

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:29 pm

I liked it, being in the dark was very interesting to say the least, especially knowing a few people knew my identity but also couldn't do anything about it.

It went well as far as a forum game goes, I'd love to play it again in a different role to see another aspect that's for sure and we'll know what to expect as well.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:32 pm

One thing I like is that players rarely die. It's much better in that regard.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:34 pm

Let's think about how a Fascist can signal allegiance to Hitler.

Hitler is Prez and passes LF. Charlie the Chancellor enacts F. Hitler knows Charlie is a Fascist.
Hitler is Prez, Veto is active, and Hitler passes LL. Charlie vetoes. Hitler knows....
Hitler scans Charlie and sees that he's a Fascist.

Anything else?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:47 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:Let's think about how a Fascist can signal allegiance to Hitler.

Hitler is Prez and passes LF. Charlie the Chancellor enacts F. Hitler knows Charlie is a Fascist.
Hitler is Prez, Veto is active, and Hitler passes LL. Charlie vetoes. Hitler knows....
Hitler scans Charlie and sees that he's a Fascist.

Anything else?

President Fascist scans Hitler and announces that he is Liberal.
President Fascist scans a Liberal with whom Hitler disputed cards, then announces that that Liberal is a Fascist.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:49 pm

Good one! Anything else?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:09 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:This game was tense. I loved it!

+a zillion

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:42 pm

If anyone disliked it-- or aspects of it-- I think it would be helpful to hear that side of things, too. After all, we're at liberty to tweak the design to make it more forum-amenable!

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:24 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:If anyone disliked it-- or aspects of it-- I think it would be helpful to hear that side of things, too. After all, we're at liberty to tweak the design to make it more forum-amenable!

I didn't like the part where Scoop called me a fascist. Can you amend that part?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:44 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:If anyone disliked it-- or aspects of it-- I think it would be helpful to hear that side of things, too. After all, we're at liberty to tweak the design to make it more forum-amenable!

as the guy who screwed up, perhaps ACTION options should be part of it (the Veto)

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:52 pm

I liked the game. It was a little frustrating when CR scanned me as a fascist and then Holman confirmed with a scan of CR. I tried to throw as much mud as I could, but I felt like it was an uphill battle all the way. I kept saying if I really was a Liberal how would I react?

Vorret, I think you played it too clean. With the Holman, CR team it made it unlikely that you would get a chance as Chancellor. Especially since Holman was cleared as not being Hitler and Stess stating repeatedly that you could be Hitler. If you could have taken the shot and shot a Liberal, it may have been enough to push the game in our favor. You kept siding with Holman and CR right up until the end and we needed you to go the other way at some point.

As Grund said, first game, live and learn. I also don't mind the forum dynamic. It takes longer than a face to face game, but it doesn't seem unreasonably long vs. a regular WW game.

Thanks for running Grund!

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:54 pm

Bb2112 I think you did well claiming your innocence. I pushed hard for you at the end. We nearly won. Pretty fun.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:18 am

Chaosraven wrote:perhaps ACTION options should be part of it (the Veto)

I agree; it would be a good practice for the mod to include that option in the PM that passes cards from Prez to Chancellor, if that option is active.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:21 am

Well, it was fun for me to run it. I look forward to joining a game later.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:52 am

Wow, Vorret. I was expecting the possibility of you being Hitler only if Moliere had been a Fascist, too. That would have been wicked mindfreak. So trusted, but still so far from victory.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:39 am

bb2112 wrote:I liked the game. It was a little frustrating when CR scanned me as a fascist and then Holman confirmed with a scan of CR. I tried to throw as much mud as I could, but I felt like it was an uphill battle all the way. I kept saying if I really was a Liberal how would I react?

Vorret, I think you played it too clean. With the Holman, CR team it made it unlikely that you would get a chance as Chancellor. Especially since Holman was cleared as not being Hitler and Stess stating repeatedly that you could be Hitler. If you could have taken the shot and shot a Liberal, it may have been enough to push the game in our favor. You kept siding with Holman and CR right up until the end and we needed you to go the other way at some point.

As Grund said, first game, live and learn. I also don't mind the forum dynamic. It takes longer than a face to face game, but it doesn't seem unreasonably long vs. a regular WW game.

Thanks for running Grund!

See, people keep saying this but he didn't now who was on his side! Until Holman passed a policy at the very end. If he had shot someone, there's a 50/50 chance it would have been a Fascst. Now that would have been funny.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:28 am

Grundbegriff wrote:It seemed as if the game was frustrating. Does everyone agree with that sentiment?

More importantly, did you have fun, or did it seem like a chore? Is Secret Hitler a good game?

Loved it! The uncertainty made it enjoyable mostly due to the rarity of death.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:36 am

Remus West wrote: due to the rarity of death.

Agreed. Finding a way to keep everyone in the game was the brilliant innovation in The Resistance/Avalon, and giving people something to do that *potentially* generates useful information is how Secret Hitler builds onthat foundation.

Say... anyone up for a game of Avalon? It's like this reskinned in Arthurian garb, with the elections but without the policies. Plus Merlin knows everyone's alignment but evil wins if they guess who's Merlin.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:43 am

Grundbegriff wrote:
Remus West wrote: due to the rarity of death.
Agreed. Finding a way to keep everyone in the game was the brilliant innovation in The Resistance/Avalon, and giving people something to do that *potentially* generates useful information is how Secret Hitler builds onthat foundation.

Say... anyone up for a game of Avalon? It's like this reskinned in Arthurian garb, with the elections but without the policies. Plus Merlin knows everyone's alignment but evil wins if they guess who's Merlin.

I was going to start a sign up page for another Secret Hitler first...