Samurai Versus Ninja (ww) Night 2: RMC dead

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Mon May 02, 2016 11:39 am

bb2112 wrote:That is 3 for RMC and we have NC sighting this game. Let's give RMC a chance to talk.

/starts to talk
/mouth moves

"Afraid of Scooping are ye?" But you remove vote not?"

/bows head

BB 2012

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Mon May 02, 2016 11:41 am

Newcastle wrote:
bb2112 wrote:That is 3 for RMC and we have NC sighting this game. Let's give RMC a chance to talk.
/starts to talk
/mouth moves

"Afraid of Scooping are ye?" But you remove vote not?"

/bows head

BB 2012

Well he wasn't at N-1 yet no need to remove the vote...

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon May 02, 2016 11:45 am

Vorret wrote:
Newcastle wrote:
bb2112 wrote:That is 3 for RMC and we have NC sighting this game. Let's give RMC a chance to talk.
/starts to talk
/mouth moves

"Afraid of Scooping are ye?" But you remove vote not?"

/bows head

BB 2012

Well he wasn't at N-1 yet no need to remove the vote...

He was briefly, but then a few people removed their votes, so yeah, you are right. He currently isn't at N-1. And NC is making sure he is not putting his vote on the RMC stack in case RMC gets back to it.

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Mon May 02, 2016 11:46 am

bb2112 wrote:
Vorret wrote:
Newcastle wrote:
bb2112 wrote:That is 3 for RMC and we have NC sighting this game. Let's give RMC a chance to talk.
/starts to talk
/mouth moves

"Afraid of Scooping are ye?" But you remove vote not?"

/bows head

BB 2012

Well he wasn't at N-1 yet no need to remove the vote...
He was briefly, but then a few people removed their votes, so yeah, you are right. He currently isn't at N-1. And NC is making sure he is not putting his vote on the RMC stack in case RMC gets back to it.

He was, but not when you said the sentence NC quoted

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Mon May 02, 2016 11:46 am

Will it help if I come out as Elongated Man?

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 02, 2016 11:57 am

Moliere wrote:Will it help if I come out as Elongated Man?

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon May 02, 2016 1:29 pm

If I have the vote count right, RMC is at 2 (see below), and by his last email is not going to talk. I would rather not waste a week on this like last time. Do we boost RMC back up and try to force him to talk, or do we back down and look somewhere else?

Worst case scenario he is the seer and scanned a non-wolf, he semi clears himself and another. The village will leave him alone and that forces the wolves to kill him and the cleared guy the next 2 nights. We can also potentially play the protection chicken game, if we have a protector. If he doesn't claim, he most likely will die tonight and we get nothing.

Or RMC is a baddie. He claims seer, the seer does not come out to counter today, but the seer knows he has a baddie in the bag (if we have a seer.) Or he survives tonight and then we know something is up.

A third possibility is he someone else or claims someone else. I don't think there is anyone on the list that would be worse than the seer and there are a few special villager roles I wouldn't mind seeing go bye-bye. Sorcerer, Minion, and Cult Leader to name a few. But if he was one of those, I doubt he would claim it. He would have to claim something else which could be potentially countered.

It is too dangerous to potentially lose the information tonight if he is a good guy, and stupid to let him go if he is a bad guy.

It is time to make RMC talk.

Current RMC vote count:
RMC - Lassr, bb2112, Vorret, Moliere

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Mon May 02, 2016 1:37 pm

I'm ok with letting him live, wolves will get him tonight anyway if he really is a special.
If not, well, we get him tomorrow, no harms done.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Mon May 02, 2016 1:41 pm

Vorret wrote:I'm ok with letting him live, wolves will get him tonight anyway if he really is a special.
If not, well, we get him tomorrow, no harms done.

Didn't you just tell the ninjas not to bother killing RMC tonight because the village will lynch him tomorrow?

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon May 02, 2016 1:55 pm

Vorret wrote:I'm ok with letting him live, wolves will get him tonight anyway if he really is a special.
If not, well, we get him tomorrow, no harms done.

No harm done? I can think of a couple things.

If he is the seer we lose his scan information if he is killed tonight. Whether he is or isn't the seer, whatever special role he is, we would lose that information if he is killed tonight.

If he is a baddie, we let him skate today and then have the same problem tomorrow of making him talk. Of course after we most likely lynch a villager today since we are taking one baddie out from the potential odds of the rest of the pool.

Depending on his claim, and if we believe him (or even mostly believe him), we most likely wont kill him today, but we need to get the information today. The more he drags his feet, the more I think he is a bad guy.

Wolves want the info to stay hidden since it helps them. The good guys need to know to piece things together. And now that RMC announced he is "special" we need to know just how "special" he really is.

El Guapo is right. We did just go over this exact situation in a previous game. With the same guy even. But at least in that game there were a few roles that lost powers if the person declared who they were. This game does not have that same restriction.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon May 02, 2016 1:58 pm

Moliere wrote:
Vorret wrote:I'm ok with letting him live, wolves will get him tonight anyway if he really is a special.
If not, well, we get him tomorrow, no harms done.
Didn't you just tell the ninjas not to bother killing RMC tonight because the village will lynch him tomorrow?

No, what he said was he didn't want RMC to tell the village who he is so he can kill RMC in the night and the village will never know who RMC was and that information would be lost forever.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:00 pm

bb2112 wrote:
Moliere wrote:
Vorret wrote:I'm ok with letting him live, wolves will get him tonight anyway if he really is a special.
If not, well, we get him tomorrow, no harms done.
Didn't you just tell the ninjas not to bother killing RMC tonight because the village will lynch him tomorrow?
No, what he said was he didn't want RMC to tell the village who he is so he can kill RMC in the night and the village will never know who RMC was and that information would be lost forever.

The thing is my role is worthless if I come out with it. And there is no value to the village if I let it out now.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:17 pm

Wow, what a start.

One thing, I think NC had a vote on me - not RMC, for what it's worth. (so his switch was not to take heat off RMC.)

And, I wasn't totally aware of the RMC kills Remus thing, but I image there is perhaps an <everyone> kills Remus thing on some level...

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:19 pm

RMC wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
Moliere wrote:
Vorret wrote:I'm ok with letting him live, wolves will get him tonight anyway if he really is a special.
If not, well, we get him tomorrow, no harms done.
Didn't you just tell the ninjas not to bother killing RMC tonight because the village will lynch him tomorrow?
No, what he said was he didn't want RMC to tell the village who he is so he can kill RMC in the night and the village will never know who RMC was and that information would be lost forever.
The thing is my role is worthless if I come out with it. And there is no value to the village if I let it out now.

I can't see anything that would be made worthless if you came out with it except maybe one role. And I am not sure that is worth giving you the pass if you are evil and you are trying to stay alive.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:25 pm

Unagi wrote:Wow, what a start.

One thing, I think NC had a vote on me - not RMC, for what it's worth. (so his switch was not to take heat off RMC.)

And, I wasn't totally aware of the RMC kills Remus thing, but I image there is perhaps an <everyone> kills Remus thing on some level...

Eh, I always make the statement that killing Remus seems like a good thing. So I can certainly see why I was a suspect when he turned up dead.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:26 pm

bb2112 wrote:Worst case scenario he is the seer and scanned a non-wolf, he semi clears himself and another. The village will leave him alone and that forces the wolves to kill him and the cleared guy the next 2 nights. We can also potentially play the protection chicken game, if we have a protector. If he doesn't claim, he most likely will die tonight and we get nothing.

Or RMC is a baddie. He claims seer, the seer does not come out to counter today, but the seer knows he has a baddie in the bag (if we have a seer.) Or he survives tonight and then we know something is up.

A third possibility is he someone else or claims someone else. I don't think there is anyone on the list that would be worse than the seer and there are a few special villager roles I wouldn't mind seeing go bye-bye. Sorcerer, Minion, and Cult Leader to name a few. But if he was one of those, I doubt he would claim it. He would have to claim something else which could be potentially countered.

It is too dangerous to potentially lose the information tonight if he is a good guy, and stupid to let him go if he is a bad guy.

It is time to make RMC talk.

I'm kinda buying into this line of thinking... I will point out that the "worst case" is what you said, but that he scanned Remus. So, he'd have nothing.

I find it a little interesting that RMC feels he is most certainly of no value if he declares who he is, as that would almost require him to know he's the most important special to keep alive and that anyone could do much to help; and with that huge list, how would one really come to that conclusion.

There are of course ALL manner of reasons for a wolf to hold back on which special he is spoofing while at the rope.

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:30 pm

bb2112 wrote:
Moliere wrote:
Vorret wrote:I'm ok with letting him live, wolves will get him tonight anyway if he really is a special.
If not, well, we get him tomorrow, no harms done.
Didn't you just tell the ninjas not to bother killing RMC tonight because the village will lynch him tomorrow?
No, what he said was he didn't want RMC to tell the village who he is so he can kill RMC in the night and the village will never know who RMC was and that information would be lost forever.

I.... I didn't say that at all.
I said I'm ok with letting him live, why would wolves let a special stay alive at night? If he really is a special, why lynch him?

I doubt wolves will want to keep a potential special alive (let's say he's the seer and gets a 2nd scan).

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:32 pm

bb2112 wrote:
Moliere wrote:
Vorret wrote:I'm ok with letting him live, wolves will get him tonight anyway if he really is a special.
If not, well, we get him tomorrow, no harms done.
Didn't you just tell the ninjas not to bother killing RMC tonight because the village will lynch him tomorrow?
No, what he said was he didn't want RMC to tell the village who he is so he can kill RMC in the night and the village will never know who RMC was and that information would be lost forever.

So are you just shooting so loose as to also imply that RMC is who he says he is - and there are wolves circling him right now too, that want him to die on his secret?
Lot's of fingers ready to point.

Or actually, really you are doing well to show how "keeping quiet" helps no one but the wolves in the end.

RMC, I am in the camp that: you can't sit on it.

So.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:38 pm

No big deal, you all want me to come clean, so I will. Not that it does any good.

I am the PI. I can do a one time scan. Should have done it last night. I was hoping to get a few people out prior to doing it, to help. Also, I wanted to see who was saying what. But this has devolved into RMC might be bad or good, so no real info to gleen.

I had planned to scan myself, as the rules don't say I can't I don't think. So I would know that I was good.

I will be killed at night I am sure now, where as before I thought we could all let me go for a day without revealing, and maybe the wolves would wait until Night two to kill me. <shrug>

Anyway, there it is.. Let's hope our other special is someone that can protect me for a night.

Give me names to check..

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:45 pm

RMC wrote:Give me names to check..

I like the idea of checking RMC. He comes across as suspicious.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon May 02, 2016 2:54 pm

RMC wrote:No big deal, you all want me to come clean, so I will. Not that it does any good.

I am the PI. I can do a one time scan. Should have done it last night. I was hoping to get a few people out prior to doing it, to help. Also, I wanted to see who was saying what. But this has devolved into RMC might be bad or good, so no real info to gleen.

I had planned to scan myself, as the rules don't say I can't I don't think. So I would know that I was good.

I will be killed at night I am sure now, where as before I thought we could all let me go for a day without revealing, and maybe the wolves would wait until Night two to kill me. <shrug>

Anyway, there it is.. Let's hope our other special is someone that can protect me for a night.

Give me names to check..

Withdraw RMC

Is there someone out there that can counter RMC's claim and used his ability on night one?

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Mon May 02, 2016 3:46 pm

bb2112 wrote:Is there someone out there that can counter RMC's claim and used his ability on night one?

As Elongated Man I can validate his claim.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon May 02, 2016 3:50 pm

RMC wrote:We have no idea what specials are out there, so my role could be anything.

Why would I blurt it out on day one to god and country. If I live until Day 2, which I doubt I might reveal then, but most likely not. Day 3 or after I would come out.

So if I were to revel today, it would only help the wolves, even if I get axed tonight, or they try too Ax me.

And let's be honest, the ploy of claiming special works towards the end of the game, but in the beginning of the game, this just means you postpone death by a day, maybe.

I am a special, not spoofing anything.

withdraw RMC

I can go with this. Not knowing the special means the Ninjas will need to take care of him just in case he can harm them, they can let him live and build up our suspicion but that is a risky ride for them.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon May 02, 2016 3:54 pm

RMC wrote:No big deal, you all want me to come clean, so I will. Not that it does any good.

I am the PI. I can do a one time scan. Should have done it last night. I was hoping to get a few people out prior to doing it, to help. Also, I wanted to see who was saying what. But this has devolved into RMC might be bad or good, so no real info to gleen.

I had planned to scan myself, as the rules don't say I can't I don't think. So I would know that I was good.

I will be killed at night I am sure now, where as before I thought we could all let me go for a day without revealing, and maybe the wolves would wait until Night two to kill me. <shrug>

Anyway, there it is.. Let's hope our other special is someone that can protect me for a night.

Give me names to check..

I'd rather you held onto that info but I guess you bowed to the pressure. You would have died in a few days one way or the other...

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon May 02, 2016 3:55 pm

are we guaranteed a seer? The rules read as the seer is a random role also. So odds are we have no see.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon May 02, 2016 4:16 pm

Lassr wrote:are we guaranteed a seer? The rules read as the seer is a random role also. So odds are we have no see.

It's very possible that we don't have a seer. It is most likely that RMC (again, if telling the truth) may be it since having a full blown seer and a PI is probably broken. Although, this is Scoop, he doesn't always balance his games.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon May 02, 2016 4:16 pm

That's the problem. We don't even know if there *is* a PI in this game.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 02, 2016 4:26 pm

Holman wrote:That's the problem. We don't even know if there *is* a PI in this game.

Well, yes we do. I am it.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 02, 2016 4:28 pm

Lassr wrote:are we guaranteed a seer? The rules read as the seer is a random role also. So odds are we have no see.

Well where were you when they all wanted to lynch me then? No one wanted me to not reveal, which I think is foolish on day one. Run someone else up the pole after they claim special. And if they don't produce on day two off with their head.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Mon May 02, 2016 4:29 pm

RMC wrote:No big deal, you all want me to come clean, so I will. Not that it does any good.

I am the PI. I can do a one time scan. Should have done it last night. I was hoping to get a few people out prior to doing it, to help. Also, I wanted to see who was saying what. But this has devolved into RMC might be bad or good, so no real info to gleen.

I had planned to scan myself, as the rules don't say I can't I don't think. So I would know that I was good.

I will be killed at night I am sure now, where as before I thought we could all let me go for a day without revealing, and maybe the wolves would wait until Night two to kill me. <shrug>

Anyway, there it is.. Let's hope our other special is someone that can protect me for a night.

Give me names to check..

Assuming there is no counter, and that you who you say you are, then the game isn't necessarily over for you. There are multiple protector roles and the witch could revive you.

I like putting you on your list. You can pick who you like for the other two, but if it were me, I would add Unagi and Lassr. Both are powerful if on the side of good. Don't announce who your final picks are.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 02, 2016 4:31 pm

bb2112 wrote:
RMC wrote:No big deal, you all want me to come clean, so I will. Not that it does any good.

I am the PI. I can do a one time scan. Should have done it last night. I was hoping to get a few people out prior to doing it, to help. Also, I wanted to see who was saying what. But this has devolved into RMC might be bad or good, so no real info to gleen.

I had planned to scan myself, as the rules don't say I can't I don't think. So I would know that I was good.

I will be killed at night I am sure now, where as before I thought we could all let me go for a day without revealing, and maybe the wolves would wait until Night two to kill me. <shrug>

Anyway, there it is.. Let's hope our other special is someone that can protect me for a night.

Give me names to check..
Assuming there is no counter, and that you who you say you are, then the game isn't necessarily over for you. There are multiple protector roles and the witch could revive you.

I like putting you on your list. You can pick who you like for the other two, but if it were me, I would add Unagi and Lassr. Both are powerful if on the side of good. Don't announce who your final picks are.

Will not tell anyone but, me, myself and I.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon May 02, 2016 4:35 pm

bb2112 wrote:
RMC wrote:No big deal, you all want me to come clean, so I will. Not that it does any good.

I am the PI. I can do a one time scan. Should have done it last night. I was hoping to get a few people out prior to doing it, to help. Also, I wanted to see who was saying what. But this has devolved into RMC might be bad or good, so no real info to gleen.

I had planned to scan myself, as the rules don't say I can't I don't think. So I would know that I was good.

I will be killed at night I am sure now, where as before I thought we could all let me go for a day without revealing, and maybe the wolves would wait until Night two to kill me. <shrug>

Anyway, there it is.. Let's hope our other special is someone that can protect me for a night.

Give me names to check..
Assuming there is no counter, and that you who you say you are, then the game isn't necessarily over for you. There are multiple protector roles and the witch could revive you.

I like putting you on your list. You can pick who you like for the other two, but if it were me, I would add Unagi and Lassr. Both are powerful if on the side of good. Don't announce who your final picks are.

To be clear, the rationale for including RMC on RMC's list is that if he gets a "hit" then we know (if RMC is being truthful) at least one wolf out of a group of 2, rather than at least one wolf out of a group of 3? Though of course that would come at the expense of lowering the odds of hitting a wolf, which is not a clearly worthwhile trade-off to my mind (I would have to think about it).

Actually, might as well ask the threshold question - Scoop, can a PI include themselves in their group of 3?

RMC, I trust that if you do include yourself and discover that you are a wolf, that you will do the honorable thing and come forward for lynching.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 02, 2016 4:36 pm

El Guapo wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
RMC wrote:No big deal, you all want me to come clean, so I will. Not that it does any good.

I am the PI. I can do a one time scan. Should have done it last night. I was hoping to get a few people out prior to doing it, to help. Also, I wanted to see who was saying what. But this has devolved into RMC might be bad or good, so no real info to gleen.

I had planned to scan myself, as the rules don't say I can't I don't think. So I would know that I was good.

I will be killed at night I am sure now, where as before I thought we could all let me go for a day without revealing, and maybe the wolves would wait until Night two to kill me. <shrug>

Anyway, there it is.. Let's hope our other special is someone that can protect me for a night.

Give me names to check..
Assuming there is no counter, and that you who you say you are, then the game isn't necessarily over for you. There are multiple protector roles and the witch could revive you.

I like putting you on your list. You can pick who you like for the other two, but if it were me, I would add Unagi and Lassr. Both are powerful if on the side of good. Don't announce who your final picks are.
To be clear, the rationale for including RMC on RMC's list is that if he gets a "hit" then we know (if RMC is being truthful) at least one wolf out of a group of 2, rather than at least one wolf out of a group of 3? Though of course that would come at the expense of lowering the odds of hitting a wolf, which is not a clearly worthwhile trade-off to my mind (I would have to think about it).

Actually, might as well ask the threshold question - Scoop, can a PI include themselves in their group of 3?

RMC, I trust that if you do include yourself and discover that you are a wolf, that you will do the honorable thing and come forward for lynching.

If I discover that I am a wolf, you betcha I will claim Elongated Man... Err.. I mean Red Rocket...

I am not a Wolf.

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Mon May 02, 2016 8:11 pm

RMC wrote:
Lassr wrote:are we guaranteed a seer? The rules read as the seer is a random role also. So odds are we have no see.
Well where were you when they all wanted to lynch me then?

Work. Got all day training tomorrow so I will not be on until tomorrow night. Don't run anyone else up the pole until I'm back.

This Ezmate moment was just for Unagi...

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon May 02, 2016 8:53 pm

Day 1 Vote Count
El Guapo(1) - Moliere
bb2112(1) - newcastle

No Votes Cast
Lassr
Vorret
bb2112
Holman
RMC
El Guapo
Unagi

Majority of 5 votes.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon May 02, 2016 8:54 pm

El Guapo wrote:Actually, might as well ask the threshold question - Scoop, can a PI include themselves in their group of 3?

Yes.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon May 02, 2016 10:07 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Actually, might as well ask the threshold question - Scoop, can a PI include themselves in their group of 3?
Yes.

Follow up question: Does the PI's list need to include at least one Dame who is up to no good?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon May 02, 2016 11:03 pm

Ok, so going through the roles with questions and whatnot:

Bogeyman: You win if all the night-active players are dead. Could be on either team.

Question: isn't the Bogeyman an "either team" role? Or does that mean that the Bogeyman wins if all night-active wolves are dead OR all night-active villagers are dead?

Lycan: You are a villager, but you appear falsely to be a werewolf to the Seers or PI (if they exist)

This is a wrench in the value of the PI / seer. Wolf Man as well.

Martyr: Take the place of someone who has been killed before their role is revealed.

Question: I assume that this means before the victim's alignment is revealed? We don't learn role from a death, right? Also, I assume that the martyr could take the place of a lynch target (but might accidentally protect a wolf), yes?

Old Hag: At night, indicate a player who must leave the village the next day. (one time power)

I assume that the effect here is the same as being killed?

Priest: On the first night, protect a player. The next attempt to kill the player fails. The night after that attempt, you protect a different player. Can no protect the same player twice.

So this only gets used on night 0 and night 1, but the respective players are protected indefinitely from one kill (until the "next attempt to kill" each player?

Prince: You can't be lynched.

Is the lynch used up if the village targets the Prince, or can they lynch someone else? Note that this is a provable role.

Spellcaster: At night, indicate a player who must not post the following day.

Is the village told anything when the spellcaster uses his power?

Sorcerer: You are a seer, but you are on the Werewolf team. You only know if you've found a werewolf, another seer, or something else.

Isn't this a werewolf role?

Cult Leader: Each night, add a player to your cult. (Mod will inform them they are part of the cult and who is the leader) You win if all of the players left alive are part of your cult.

Is the Cult Leader guaranteed to be in the game? If one player on a team is the Cult Leader, does that count as a special for that team?

Vorret · Post by **Vorret** » Tue May 03, 2016 10:01 am

That's alot of questions.
Knowledge is powa!

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue May 03, 2016 10:24 am

Yeah it is. I feel a little bad about that, but there are a lot of roles and they're described in one sentence apiece, so there are bound to be questions I suppose. Of course mostly they won't matter because only a few special roles will be in this game, but of course I don't know which, so...

I'm also not entirely clear why Nostradomus would ever predict a village victory. Since he otherwise counts as a villager, presumably he also wins with a village victory, so wouldn't he always predict a wolf victory to cover his bases?

Anyway, I'm not sure whether any of this impacts our current voting decision. Though it does seem like there is a decent chance of having at least one village special who is acting contrary to the village's interests or who can be converted to the wolves side partway through the game. I was wondering whether any of the roles would make a wolf RMC more likely to spoof the PI role in particular (to better assess whether he's telling the truth) - I guess maybe the potential existence of the beholder might diminish the value of spoofing the seer, but probably not by all that much.