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Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

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Remus West
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:45 am

PLW wrote:A Tarheel complaining about the referee. Ironic. I'll just leave this here:
I can't see the picture at work but I'm sure I'll love it. :D
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:52 am

My main complaint is that if any side can time a preset kill in that fashion then the other side should be given the option of a preset post. That is I should have been given the option of posting "I scanned Scoop and he is Joruus!" as soon as day broke. Instead I got my scan and "you are dead" notice at the same time - literally as they bore the same time stamp. Vader's ability simply became a night kill with no protection possible. Offering one side the ability to act as soon as day breaks but deny the other side the same option tilted the game.

This is more a discussion for future games rather than this one though. The Imperials won this won. I just don't want to see this mechanic again as I feel it is unbalanced. I have no issue with allowing Vader to have included in his post that I was dead and could not longer post. Then it is simply a race between 2 people rather than a race between 2 people plus the mod's ability to respond - a mechanic which is also unbalanced the other direction. I actually think that adding to Vader's description - or any future insta kill powers that reveal the killer - that they can post in thread along with a note letting the victim know they are dead would balance that out.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by El Guapo » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:56 am

Yeah, Remus is probably right. In game terms, both Vader's power and posting have to happen during the day. Given that, while pre-loaded posts haven't been done before, given that the time constraints on both are identical, their use should be identical - either allow pre-set posts along with pre-set orders, or make it a race.

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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Scoop20906 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:59 am

For the next game, I'll be using timestamps to determine order of operation. No pre-orders unless it is something we already have an order for.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Holman » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:06 pm

But don't timestamps create the same race-to-post problem?

A player who happens to log on 30 seconds after the day begins gains an advantage. The player who can't check OO at work faces a huge handicap.

I'd favor either a strict order of operations or strict simultaneous resolution.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:12 pm

Holman wrote:But don't timestamps create the same race-to-post problem?

A player who happens to log on 30 seconds after the day begins gains an advantage. The player who can't check OO at work faces a huge handicap.

I'd favor either a strict order of operations or strict simultaneous resolution.
That may advantage certain players but does not implicitly favor one team over another. Allowing the preset insta-kill order implicitly favors the side with that ability over the other.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:17 pm

Set an order of operations and a firing time. If Vader wants to choke someone out, he puts in the order, and it fires at, say, 7 PM CST on the calendar day after the day phase starts. That way, it's not timed based on Vader presence, or mod presence.

Whereas now, if Vader wants to choke someone out at 2 pm to shut them out, and the mod doesn't pick it up until 6, the target gets four more hours to run his mouth.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by LordMortis » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:23 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:For the next game, I'll be using timestamps to determine order of operation. No pre-orders unless it is something we already have an order for.

I've always liked pre-orders as they keep a game's tempo going. When I play and have a role, I use them a lot with the grace of the admin.

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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Zarathud » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:33 pm

Think of it as Vader using the Force. :)

Personally, the real-time element screwed up an afternoon at the office as I was waiting for PLW to show up and choke the shit out of you, Remus. Fortunately I was holding for someone to get back to me anyway.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:06 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Scoop20906 wrote:For the next game, I'll be using timestamps to determine order of operation. No pre-orders unless it is something we already have an order for.

I've always liked pre-orders as they keep a game's tempo going. When I play and have a role, I use them a lot with the grace of the admin.
I don't mind pre orders like "vote reaches n-2 I act" but pre orders that impact the ability of the other team to react to events are inherently unbalanced if only given - and in this case offered - to a single team. Vader was offered that he could pre order the choke if he were worried about losing the race. I was not offered the option of preposting if worried I would lose the race. The entire game literally turned on that offer to the Imperial side rather than the Rebel. It actually became a double night kill as there was - again literally - no time between post of day begins and post of choke out.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:08 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:Set an order of operations and a firing time. If Vader wants to choke someone out, he puts in the order, and it fires at, say, 7 PM CST on the calendar day after the day phase starts. That way, it's not timed based on Vader presence, or mod presence.

Whereas now, if Vader wants to choke someone out at 2 pm to shut them out, and the mod doesn't pick it up until 6, the target gets four more hours to run his mouth.
I thought the idea of allowing the player to post the insta kill takes care of that. It allows Vader to choke the player out the moment they want and does not rely upon the mod. I'm not sure how you would go about making everyone aware of the power being used without having it fire until later as per your example. Who would post the use?
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:10 pm

Zarathud wrote:Think of it as Vader using the Force. :)

Personally, the real-time element screwed up an afternoon at the office as I was waiting for PLW to show up and choke the shit out of you, Remus. Fortunately I was holding for someone to get back to me anyway.
and I've lost games and/or been killed because I was busy and couldn't get on to make a point or act. That, to me, is part of the game.

We talk about ezmating because he went to the trouble of being able to post while hiking mountains on vacation and keeping the village updated as to his whereabouts just in case there were large gaps in his posting. Being AFK is part of the game whatever the reason.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:21 pm

Remus West wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:Set an order of operations and a firing time. If Vader wants to choke someone out, he puts in the order, and it fires at, say, 7 PM CST on the calendar day after the day phase starts. That way, it's not timed based on Vader presence, or mod presence.

Whereas now, if Vader wants to choke someone out at 2 pm to shut them out, and the mod doesn't pick it up until 6, the target gets four more hours to run his mouth.
I thought the idea of allowing the player to post the insta kill takes care of that. It allows Vader to choke the player out the moment they want and does not rely upon the mod. I'm not sure how you would go about making everyone aware of the power being used without having it fire until later as per your example. Who would post the use?
When has the player ever had the ability to actually have the post take effect? That's major meta-game breaking, as anyone could temporarily silence a player by faking the role. If the Empire knows Vader is in class until 6, one of the others could "choke" you out at 3 and effectively silence you until either the mod arrives to clarify or the other player to actually show up.

Mods post the results of power use. Period. It's why those who have been voted off can still talk until the mod shows up to shut down voting.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Vorret » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:23 pm

In the case of Vader, since it outs him anyway, he can post directly in the thread saying "I am choking Remus cuz reasons11!!"

No need to wait for a moderator and that shuts Remus up if he was too late in posting his info.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:53 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:Set an order of operations and a firing time. If Vader wants to choke someone out, he puts in the order, and it fires at, say, 7 PM CST on the calendar day after the day phase starts. That way, it's not timed based on Vader presence, or mod presence.

Whereas now, if Vader wants to choke someone out at 2 pm to shut them out, and the mod doesn't pick it up until 6, the target gets four more hours to run his mouth.
I thought the idea of allowing the player to post the insta kill takes care of that. It allows Vader to choke the player out the moment they want and does not rely upon the mod. I'm not sure how you would go about making everyone aware of the power being used without having it fire until later as per your example. Who would post the use?
When has the player ever had the ability to actually have the post take effect? That's major meta-game breaking, as anyone could temporarily silence a player by faking the role. If the Empire knows Vader is in class until 6, one of the others could "choke" you out at 3 and effectively silence you until either the mod arrives to clarify or the other player to actually show up.

Mods post the results of power use. Period. It's why those who have been voted off can still talk until the mod shows up to shut down voting.
Clearly you would not be allowed to fake the choke/kill as the players would have no method to know the true use of the ability vs a fake. The results would always await the mod but the role of saying "player X is now dead" could be posted by the acting player. Thus, you could fake claim Vader but not fake execute his ability - thus giving away your fake of his role.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by bb2112 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:09 pm

As I said there were other factors at play with PLW in this case. However, I was also struggling with even if Vader came in 5 seconds after I logged off announcing it was morning and put in the kill order, RW could have made his announcement after the kill order was placed but before I had a chance to check in and execute the order. In the evil forum I did state that PLW could kill RW and announce in his own post that the kill happened, but then I'm relying on RW to honor that post and still not spill the beans on his scan. RW is an experienced player and I feel would have most likely honored PLW's post and made the right decision to not spill the beans, but I couldn't be 100% sure. I thought through the consequences of this decision for both sides.

1. If PLW places the order and something goes wrong and somehow PLW doesn't get to execute his order, or his post is missed or ignored by RW, then team evil is automatically screwed. PLW did everything right and the game is ruined.
2. RW posts first because PLW can't get online because of personal issues, then it is an instant win for the good guys and team evil is screwed because one of their members is having RL issues and simply can't be as attentive as they want to be.
3. If PLW places a standing order and RW gets executed by my post, then RW doesn't get to announce and both sides still have a chance to win. This doesn't put PLW in an awkward position of having to balance RL and a game. The whole reason why standing orders are done.

So again, I thought long and hard through this and determined that choice 3 was the best for all the players and the game. Did Remus and the good guys get screwed, maybe a little. Remus didn't get the chance to announce his scan, but there was no guarantee that he would have gotten the post out first anyway. He is assuming he would have, and with what was going on with PLW he might be right, but RL gets in the way sometimes and we have to be able to accommodate that upon occasion. I, and other GM's have done conditional or standing orders in the past, but usually there is not something so game changing pivotal on the line. And to be clear we don't avoid it because of the pivotal nature of a situation, but because those pivotal points come so extremely rarely that standing orders are not usually such a big deal.

I am good with the choice I made especially given the consequences and the fact that both sides still had the opportunity to win.

However, in future games I will put a caveat on Vader to read that he can post his own instakill and it has to be honored by all players as soon as it is posted. The Mod will verify the action as soon as he can get online. Although this doesn't 100% solve this particular case, it will help.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Remus West » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:24 pm

Let me be very clear. I'm not angry about the outcome of this game. It is a game. I have no problem with bb2112 making a call that he needed to make during his game. I am talking about it simply because it did alter the outcome of the game and I would rather that not occur again. Thus I want us to hash out the rules. I think bb2112's Starwars games have been some of the best alternate theme WW games we have had. I'd like them to continue.

Having read the Imperial forum I'd like to add that I hope everything is going well for those involved in the RL situation.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by PLW » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:59 pm

Thanks. I really appreciate that. Dad's on the mend, and will get a discharge date set today. I had a fun time on this game. Looking forward to the next one.

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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Chaosraven » Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:00 pm

This is the "problem" with online werewolf versus RL FTF werewolf.

The scattered players and odd timing of being online, creating a staggered effect.

In a FTF, when the mod told us to put our heads up it would have been a "tie" as Karde says Scoops and Imper-SILENCE REBEL SCUM says Vader (doing the force choke motion).

Preset orders (do X when Y) have always been acceptable (Protect Me If, Scan X if, Kill Y if) because of just this sort of thing.

Is Vaders power Night or Day oriented?
IMHO, the way to handle it would have been to post Day Beginning and then type up a separate Vader kill post. If Remus had been on at the time Day was Begun and got out a small post while Mod was typing the Vader Choke that would have been fine in my eyes.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Lassr » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:13 pm

the way I handled it in my BSG games; you could not put in an advanced order for a cycle that was not happening at the moment. You could put in an advance order for day 3 once day 3 started, not during night 2.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Unagi » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:39 am

Sorry. I was away on spring break for that conclusion.

good game everyone !

Thanks for running it BB.

Congrats to the wolves, especially Archinerd and Holman ! Always fun to tear a town apart.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Holman » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:35 pm

Yeah, we chewed the place to the ground.
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Re: Star Wars - The Empire's Challenge - Game Over

Post by Newcastle » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:10 am

SO I wanted to drop this in here before too much more time lapsed. Do keep this in mind, some people zig, scoop zags, I Geronimo.

- I am sorry for how I framed my statement; that being of a spoiled sport. That was wrong. I fully deserve the condescension, negativity and rotten tomatoes thrown my way. In a sense I was role playing and failed.

- I was never angry or upset, I was simply trying to draw fire.

- I mentioned the self vote to hopefully draw a wolf pile for later analysis.

-It was a sincere play in not revealing my role, and not motivated by petulance/ill will to the villagers. I didn’t mention my role because I was nothing. I figured it wouldn’t hurt keeping the fog of war up longer. The ratio’s I mentioned referred to how much a villager knew versus the collective wolf knowledge.

- Also not knowing who I was initially I was hoping to keep the wolves off balance because there would be the unknown of what I was. Hence any play they made, they’d have to consider what my role was; basically causing em more work.

-Ben was also well alive, I was sure he’d scan me and at the proper time he’d reveal.

-Yes I realize by not sharing the info I was also hamstringing the village

TLDR- Basically what I was doing was trying to muddle the picture for the wolves.
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