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Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by bb2112 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:01 am

Scoop, even though you only survived 1 full day and 1 full night, YOU WERE AWESOME! You successfully protected Holman and then pretty much exposed the whole team when they wolf piled to kill you. You gave the village a huge advantage and it felt like we were fighting an uphill battle everyday because of it. Much respect!
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Archinerd » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:03 am

Zarathud wrote:Stessier stopped the momentum on Archinerd by cheerleading Moliere. In the end, that bit him in the ass.

Good game as deep cover wolf, it was the right play. The Scoop vote blew up any trust in the village and rolled up the wolf votes so there were no threads left. I was so compromised by it, Remus was never going to trust me.
I'm still convinced you are a wolf.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Zarathud » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:05 am

Can't help myself. I come to play, not die whimpering in a corner.

Still, I need a break to get some work done.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by bb2112 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:10 am

Zarathud wrote:Stessier stopped the momentum on Archinerd by cheerleading Moliere. In the end, that bit him in the ass.

Good game as deep cover wolf, it was the right play. The Scoop vote blew up any trust in the village and rolled up the wolf votes so there were no threads left. I was so compromised by it, Remus was never going to trust me.
That definitely helped, but Remus switching his vote to kill Moliere when both Moliere and Archinerd were at 4 votes and his constant pushing for several days to kill Stess was what really won it for us in the end.

I give Remus West the MVP award for the infected team.

REMUSCIDE
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Newcastle » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:15 am

Forums have been opened up to read only should folks be interested. If you register will get you in so you can post.
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Re: Walking Dead Day 6

Post by Remus West » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:17 am

stessier wrote:It's amusing - I could see the case for lynching Scoop. It was really hard to see the case for lynching me. Both uncontested Specials. Live and learn I guess.
That makes absolutely zero sense to me. When Scoop got lynched we were 100% certain that his role was still alive - there had just been a save. Yet nobody countered him. Which meant he had to be telling the truth because even without an "outed" T-dog we should have had a T-dog come forward and say whom they protected simply because that player may have been the Seer.

Say we lynch Scoop and he is a bad guy. Come night the bad guys kill the previously protected player who happens to be the Seer. We have a dead bad guy, a dead Seer, and a living hidden T-dog ready to protect nobody important. Whoopie.

Say we lynch someone else. Then we have a proven to go along with forcing them to kill Scoop at night or they kill the proven and leave Scoop alive to try and tempt us. So what. Leaves more time that they are not targeting the Seer AND if the Seer is forced forward we have T-dog to protect him.

You came forward after a night kill when a proven player survived and the bad guys had had an opportunity to scan for specials. Grey area with you. None with Scoop. Lynching you makes sense. Lynching Scoop made none.

That whole day is what made this game such a mess. I just could not wrap my head around why on earth anyone voted Scoop let alone enough people to lynch him.
Last edited by Remus West on Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Lassr » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:17 am

I was impressed by BB's play, Unagi gets an MVP vote for converting him.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by bb2112 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:18 am

Newcastle, thanks for running. This game has been a blast and your flavor stories were great. I think they really add to the game when done well, and you did them very well.

I still like the fleshlights. :clap:
That's no reason to cry. One cries because one is sad. For example, I cry because others are stupid, and that makes me sad.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by bb2112 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:26 am

Lassr wrote:I was impressed by BB's play, Unagi gets an MVP vote for converting him.
The funny thing is all I did was tell the truth and now nobody will ever trust a word I say. Who knew that convincing team bad to kill you turned out to be one of the most pivotal plays of the game.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Scoop20906 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:30 am

bb2112 wrote:Scoop, even though you only survived 1 full day and 1 full night, YOU WERE AWESOME! You successfully protected Holman and then pretty much exposed the whole team when they wolf piled to kill you. You gave the village a huge advantage and it felt like we were fighting an uphill battle everyday because of it. Much respect!
I TOTALLY AGREE!! I AM AWESOME. LOL

Thanks bb2112.

On a serious note, I think it is fair to say I should never be killed again. Its too risky either way. :wink:
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Re: Walking Dead Day 6

Post by Scoop20906 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:33 am

Remus West wrote:
stessier wrote:It's amusing - I could see the case for lynching Scoop. It was really hard to see the case for lynching me. Both uncontested Specials. Live and learn I guess.
That makes absolutely zero sense to me. When Scoop got lynched we were 100% certain that his role was still alive - there had just been a save. Yet nobody countered him. Which meant he had to be telling the truth because even without an "outed" T-dog we should have had a T-dog come forward and say whom they protected simply because that player may have been the Seer.

Say we lynch Scoop and he is a bad guy. Come night the bad guys kill the previously protected player who happens to be the Seer. We have a dead bad guy, a dead Seer, and a living hidden T-dog ready to protect nobody important. Whoopie.

Say we lynch someone else. Then we have a proven to go along with forcing them to kill Scoop at night or they kill the proven and leave Scoop alive to try and tempt us. So what. Leaves more time that they are not targeting the Seer AND if the Seer is forced forward we have T-dog to protect him.

You came forward after a night kill when a proven player survived and the bad guys had had an opportunity to scan for specials. Grey area with you. None with Scoop. Lynching you makes sense. Lynching Scoop made none.

That whole day is what made this game such a mess. I just could not wrap my head around why on earth anyone voted Scoop let alone enough people to lynch him.
Man! And I fought this soooo hard. Harder than I have fought in a game in a long time. I just couldn't think of a way to to convince people to let me live.

I have to give evil credit for egging the good along to take me out. Sometimes evil finds a way.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Scoop20906 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:34 am

bb2112 wrote:I kept telling the truth.

Archinerd is a wolf
Remus West is innocent
Stessier had to be Glen

Nobody believed me.
Telling the truth is the best way to lie. Great job!!!
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Zarathud » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:40 am

Remus West wrote:That whole day is what made this game such a mess. I just could not wrap my head around why on earth anyone voted Scoop let alone enough people to lynch him.
Scoop is the Jigglypuff of OO WW games. If you listen to him, you start believing him.

I could absolutely see him spoofing a role to expose a special, then surviving.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Newcastle » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:53 am

Would like to ask folks opinion on the worked mechanics wise. how the traitor mechanism worked....was it fun? Did it work since it was limited in scope? What about the limited seers?

If i host again I will probably do something similar ruleset wise: traitor limited to day1/night1 recruitment; along with the limited seer functions. And flavor....


Secondly, I will make a full confession here: you can make the case that I helped push Punisher to take the shot on RMC. I am at peace with it and I think I did the right thing at the time. I am not happy that i did it, but i felt I had to for the sake of the players enjoyment overall. I felt like the game was going to grind down since everyone was waiting on it, plus its something any vet would have done right away no questions asked. He was considering it, but I did send him a few PM's asking him if he had questions. You can read what transpire starting around pg. 6 of the "Lassr & newcastle show" thread.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:53 am

I just can't believe that stessier got lynched over Archinerd. Stessier came out before all the specials were accounted for - when Glen and shooter-guy (whatever his name were) were still unaccounted for, and after two wolves were already exposed. The idea that he would spoof a useless role and risk a counter (and certain lynch) is mind boggling.

Although that's pretty much academic, since even if the village had lynched Archinerd, I really don't think bb2112 would ever have been lynched. He played it perfectly.

Thanks for running the game Newcastle - this was a lot of fun.

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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:55 am

Newcastle wrote:Would like to ask folks opinion on the worked mechanics wise. how the traitor mechanism worked....was it fun? Did it work since it was limited in scope? What about the limited seers?
It was fine. In some ways the way it worked here was more flavor than substantive - bb got converted after day 1 and nothing said on day 1 really matters all that much for the most part, so functionally I don't think it was that different from having bb2112 start as a wolf. But I enjoyed it.

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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Remus West » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:05 am

Zarathud wrote:
Remus West wrote:That whole day is what made this game such a mess. I just could not wrap my head around why on earth anyone voted Scoop let alone enough people to lynch him.
Scoop is the Jigglypuff of OO WW games. If you listen to him, you start believing him.

I could absolutely see him spoofing a role to expose a special, then surviving.
And thus you still fail the logic test. It had zero to do with who the T-dog claimant was and everything to do with the game situation.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Zarathud » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:06 am

It gives wolves another way to mess with the village, adds a little twist. If it was a Day 2 conversion, it would have been insane.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Vorret » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:08 am

Zarathud wrote:It gives wolves another way to mess with the village, adds a little twist. If it was a Day 2 conversion, it would have been insane.
Day 2+ conversion are stupid it gives too much power to the wolves (imo...)
This didn't change anything in the outcome simply gives the wolves an option to pick their last member, I think it's a good idea.

I also liked the idea proposed I think it was Unagi in the private forum where one wolf is drawn and he picks his whole team on D1, it's a different dynamic !
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Re: Walking Dead Day 6

Post by stessier » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:21 am

Remus West wrote:
stessier wrote:It's amusing - I could see the case for lynching Scoop. It was really hard to see the case for lynching me. Both uncontested Specials. Live and learn I guess.
That makes absolutely zero sense to me. When Scoop got lynched we were 100% certain that his role was still alive - there had just been a save. Yet nobody countered him. Which meant he had to be telling the truth because even without an "outed" T-dog we should have had a T-dog come forward and say whom they protected simply because that player may have been the Seer.

Say we lynch Scoop and he is a bad guy. Come night the bad guys kill the previously protected player who happens to be the Seer. We have a dead bad guy, a dead Seer, and a living hidden T-dog ready to protect nobody important. Whoopie.

Say we lynch someone else. Then we have a proven to go along with forcing them to kill Scoop at night or they kill the proven and leave Scoop alive to try and tempt us. So what. Leaves more time that they are not targeting the Seer AND if the Seer is forced forward we have T-dog to protect him.

You came forward after a night kill when a proven player survived and the bad guys had had an opportunity to scan for specials. Grey area with you. None with Scoop. Lynching you makes sense. Lynching Scoop made none.

That whole day is what made this game such a mess. I just could not wrap my head around why on earth anyone voted Scoop let alone enough people to lynch him.
Yeah, I still disagree with you.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by bb2112 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:51 am

Newcastle wrote: Would like to ask folks opinion on the worked mechanics wise. how the traitor mechanism worked....was it fun? Did it work since it was limited in scope? What about the limited seers?
The limited in scope traitor mechanic worked fine and I kind of liked it. Any more than 1 day and the traitor mechanic gets annoying. I stopped using Mara Jade because of that. I also like the notification to the seer that the survivor became a wolf if the seer scanned the traitor before the traitor becomes the traitor. There needs to be some solid information. I would also like to see a game where the alpha wolf chooses his team. That is an interesting idea that, to my knowledge, has not been explored yet.
Newcastle wrote:
Secondly, I will make a full confession here: you can make the case that I helped push Punisher to take the shot on RMC. I am at peace with it and I think I did the right thing at the time. I am not happy that i did it, but i felt I had to for the sake of the players enjoyment overall. I felt like the game was going to grind down since everyone was waiting on it, plus its something any vet would have done right away no questions asked. He was considering it, but I did send him a few PM's asking him if he had questions. You can read what transpire starting around pg. 6 of the "Lassr & newcastle show" thread.
No worries. I don't think it really effected this game. I will agree with Unagi in the spoiler forum and say it probably should not have been done in the first place, but the way you handled it didn't change any outcome.
That's no reason to cry. One cries because one is sad. For example, I cry because others are stupid, and that makes me sad.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by stessier » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:55 am

bb2112 wrote:
Newcastle wrote: Would like to ask folks opinion on the worked mechanics wise. how the traitor mechanism worked....was it fun? Did it work since it was limited in scope? What about the limited seers?
The limited in scope traitor mechanic worked fine and I kind of liked it. Any more than 1 day and the traitor mechanic gets annoying. I stopped using Mara Jade because of that. I also like the notification to the seer that the survivor became a wolf if the seer scanned the traitor before the traitor becomes the traitor. There needs to be some solid information. I would also like to see a game where the alpha wolf chooses his team. That is an interesting idea that, to my knowledge, has not been explored yet.
I have tried to come up with a game like that since 2014. It is proving exceedingly difficult. :)
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by bb2112 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:04 pm

stessier wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
Newcastle wrote: Would like to ask folks opinion on the worked mechanics wise. how the traitor mechanism worked....was it fun? Did it work since it was limited in scope? What about the limited seers?
The limited in scope traitor mechanic worked fine and I kind of liked it. Any more than 1 day and the traitor mechanic gets annoying. I stopped using Mara Jade because of that. I also like the notification to the seer that the survivor became a wolf if the seer scanned the traitor before the traitor becomes the traitor. There needs to be some solid information. I would also like to see a game where the alpha wolf chooses his team. That is an interesting idea that, to my knowledge, has not been explored yet.
I have tried to come up with a game like that since 2014. It is proving exceedingly difficult. :)
I don't understand why. Once you get the list of players before you send roles out you random an alpha. Alpha PM's back who is team is then you randomize good guy roles among the rest of the players and send out all the roles. Could be applied to any game.

Or are you trying to incorporate some other mechanics as well?
That's no reason to cry. One cries because one is sad. For example, I cry because others are stupid, and that makes me sad.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Remus West » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:14 pm

On the day Scoop was lynched we had 15 players.

If Scoop was lying and the "real T-Dog" came forward he would have been able to give us the name of the player he protected. 2 knowns. Rick would have shot Scoop. 3 knowns and down to three bad guys. The Seer would have had a scan and himself. A block of 5 out of the remaining 14 players. 11 unknown - 3 of which are bad guys.

Next day if they target the unknowns hoping for the Seer and miss the Seer has 6 of 12. One more day and the game is over unless they hit the Seer. That is what not countering Scoop passed on and why Scoop had to be telling the truth and why anyone lynching him was being foolish.

Scoop put the bad guys on the clock and the people that voted to lynch him took them off. bb2112 can credit me for targeting stessier all he wants. The bad guys were given life by lynching Scoop.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by stessier » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:26 pm

bb2112 wrote:
stessier wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
Newcastle wrote: Would like to ask folks opinion on the worked mechanics wise. how the traitor mechanism worked....was it fun? Did it work since it was limited in scope? What about the limited seers?
The limited in scope traitor mechanic worked fine and I kind of liked it. Any more than 1 day and the traitor mechanic gets annoying. I stopped using Mara Jade because of that. I also like the notification to the seer that the survivor became a wolf if the seer scanned the traitor before the traitor becomes the traitor. There needs to be some solid information. I would also like to see a game where the alpha wolf chooses his team. That is an interesting idea that, to my knowledge, has not been explored yet.
I have tried to come up with a game like that since 2014. It is proving exceedingly difficult. :)
I don't understand why. Once you get the list of players before you send roles out you random an alpha. Alpha PM's back who is team is then you randomize good guy roles among the rest of the players and send out all the roles. Could be applied to any game.

Or are you trying to incorporate some other mechanics as well?
Trying to roll it into the game.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by bb2112 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:29 pm

Remus West wrote: Scoop put the bad guys on the clock and the people that voted to lynch him took them off. bb2112 can credit me for targeting stessier all he wants. The bad guys were given life by lynching Scoop.
True, but at the same time the village got a strong bead on the bad guys because of that lynch. Unagi and RMC were targeted for precisely that reason. Archinerd should have been as well. You, and others, had him in your sights early on and then let him go.
That's no reason to cry. One cries because one is sad. For example, I cry because others are stupid, and that makes me sad.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Newcastle » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:32 pm

stessier wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
stessier wrote:
bb2112 wrote:
Newcastle wrote: Would like to ask folks opinion on the worked mechanics wise. how the traitor mechanism worked....was it fun? Did it work since it was limited in scope? What about the limited seers?
The limited in scope traitor mechanic worked fine and I kind of liked it. Any more than 1 day and the traitor mechanic gets annoying. I stopped using Mara Jade because of that. I also like the notification to the seer that the survivor became a wolf if the seer scanned the traitor before the traitor becomes the traitor. There needs to be some solid information. I would also like to see a game where the alpha wolf chooses his team. That is an interesting idea that, to my knowledge, has not been explored yet.
I have tried to come up with a game like that since 2014. It is proving exceedingly difficult. :)
I don't understand why. Once you get the list of players before you send roles out you random an alpha. Alpha PM's back who is team is then you randomize good guy roles among the rest of the players and send out all the roles. Could be applied to any game.

Or are you trying to incorporate some other mechanics as well?
Trying to roll it into the game.
The way i kind of figured it out....

a. your first roll is Alpha wolf
b. roll for good specials
b. you tell him to choose X amount of team mates
c. do a soft start to the game; ie no real votes yet (day phase i think is best, plus i prefer day starts)
d. alpha selects team mates
E. if team mates selected are "special"; their role gets randomized to a normal villager.
F. the wolves teams powers are then scrambled; so alpha can choose team mates can't choose roles/powers
G. Start the game.

Part of the problem i think is giving the alpha enough time to select his team mates and time to think it over. Secondly he might want input from say one of his potentiall team mates. So i figure you give him 2-4 days to select the team and get the new wolves situated.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:38 pm

You'd also need to leave enough time for the "putting the team together" montage.

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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Unagi » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:54 pm

Woo Hoo!!! We WON!!!

Amazeballs.

Seriously great final effort BB and Archinerd, I left with the game being a mess for us, and you two cleaned it right up.

Very fun flavor and write-ups Newcastle - Big Thank you for running the game.



The idea (that I shared with Newcsatle) was (and I think this is how El Guapo just described it as well..) was that an Alpha wolf would be selected and he would then tell the moderator who his team should be made up of... and from the remaining players - the Good Team was then formed... And the only point was just to give the Alpha a little control about his team and then allow folks to know when they killed the Alpha to wonder who he would have put on his team. Another point for villagers to discuss, etc.

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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:00 pm

I would like to thank both teams for clearing me, the wolf team less so for proceeding to kill me.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:14 pm

Unagi wrote:
The idea (that I shared with Newcsatle) was (and I think this is how El Guapo just described it as well..) was that an Alpha wolf would be selected and he would then tell the moderator who his team should be made up of... and from the remaining players - the Good Team was then formed... And the only point was just to give the Alpha a little control about his team and then allow folks to know when they killed the Alpha to wonder who he would have put on his team. Another point for villagers to discuss, etc.
Yeah, it would also be cool to inform the village when they killed the Alpha wolf, as that would give the village something interesting to mull over ("Who would Chaosraven have picked for his team?"), before proceeding to lynch their seer.

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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Scoop20906 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:45 pm

Vorret wrote:I also liked the idea proposed I think it was Unagi in the private forum where one wolf is drawn and he picks his whole team on D1, it's a different dynamic !
THAT sounds cool.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Scoop20906 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:46 pm

Vorret wrote:I also liked the idea proposed I think it was Unagi in the private forum where one wolf is drawn and he picks his whole team on D1, it's a different dynamic !
THAT sounds cool.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Archinerd » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:07 pm

Just came across this tidbit in the dead forum and it made me laugh.
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Perfectly phrased. :)

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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Vorret » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:31 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Unagi wrote:
The idea (that I shared with Newcsatle) was (and I think this is how El Guapo just described it as well..) was that an Alpha wolf would be selected and he would then tell the moderator who his team should be made up of... and from the remaining players - the Good Team was then formed... And the only point was just to give the Alpha a little control about his team and then allow folks to know when they killed the Alpha to wonder who he would have put on his team. Another point for villagers to discuss, etc.
Yeah, it would also be cool to inform the village when they killed the Alpha wolf, as that would give the village something interesting to mull over ("Who would Chaosraven have picked for his team?"), before proceeding to lynch their seer.
I like that!
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Zarathud » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:09 pm

The good news is that Holman and I DID identify the wolves out of our 3 choices. The bad news is that we only agreed only on the wrong choice.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Punisher » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:15 pm

Not sure if it was in the infected forum, but why did the wolves target holman on day 1? Still amazing that Scoop was able to predict that as well.
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Punisher » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:18 pm

Newcastle wrote:Secondly, I will make a full confession here: you can make the case that I helped push Punisher to take the shot on RMC. I am at peace with it and I think I did the right thing at the time. I am not happy that i did it, but i felt I had to for the sake of the players enjoyment overall. I felt like the game was going to grind down since everyone was waiting on it, plus its something any vet would have done right away no questions asked. He was considering it, but I did send him a few PM's asking him if he had questions. You can read what transpire starting around pg. 6 of the "Lassr & newcastle show" thread.
For the record.. The only thing you pushed for me was the timing and that was only due to a rules clarification... If my shot would have reset the clock, I was going to wait until the last minute to shoot RMC to see if we could gather any other info and then have more time to sort out the next wolf.. Since that wasn't going to happen, I didn't want to shoot and then leave no time for a lynch, so I shot sooner than I planned on..
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Punisher » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:20 pm

Also, this is 2 games in a row where I was good and inadvertently protected wolves.. (Archinerd in this case, since I didn't put him down in my list) and the wolves still killed me... so if I protect someone and then get killed, they are probably a wolf going forward... :)
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Re: Walking Dead - Game over Infected Win

Post by Unagi » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:56 pm

Punisher wrote:Not sure if it was in the infected forum, but why did the wolves target holman on day 1? Still amazing that Scoop was able to predict that as well.
Scoop and I were just picking up on the same erroneous 'thing'.

It was Day 1/ Night 1... No one is going off much - so it's really just a boring coincident vs. Scoop and I both picking up on some huge un-spoken clue.

The fact that Scoop and I both thought Holman was special did make me feel he really might have been, but Holman's play (and the circumstances) pretty much cleared him of being special... but I still couldn't get over it.
:grund: :D

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