Dawn of War replay

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:06 am

Hey all,

Here's a link to a replay I just posted. Not exactly top level play, but it was fun, mostly because the guy didn't fold like a chair the second I started attacking his base.

I'm using the new Eldar, since the patch I can finally play the race I was most interested in (Orkz are pretty cool as well).

Banshees rock. Cool looking, excellent animations, big ass swords, HtH specialists, very fun. They are a little fragile for the late game, but early game chew up marines/chaos marines.

Let me know what you think.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=46835

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:26 pm

Ooh, Dawn of War Dawn of War. I swear I think I make 50% of the responses to DoW posts myself here nowadays.

I didn't play Eldar much before the patch. Now that I've been trying to get accustomed to them they're a lot of fun to play. The one situation where it seems like they'd be at a disadvantage is the early game. Because their units are so specialized, super early scouting is crucial so you know what types of units you need based on what race your enemy is playing... cus researching every Aspect early on is kinda cost prohibitive. Some thoughts before I view the replay:

Banshees ARE great, but one thing I noticed is that they're supposedly especially suited against regular infantry. Dunno if you've noticed, but at least with their default weapons it takes them a long time to wear down heavy infantry (i.e. CSM/SM) squads. Seems like the only unit really suited to dealing with heavy infantry early game is the Reaper.

Entangle still rules all. Entangle/Dark Reaper combo still seems really tough to beat. Need to play 'em more though to try out some different stuff.

I had a replay the other day, pre-patch, of an almost hour-long game where I thought I'd lost, as Chaos against an Insane SM AI, repeatedly throughout but somehow managed to hold on and pull the game out. I went through all the rigamarole of typing up a header and such... trouble was, even zipped with maximum compression the file was 319k, a little too big to upload there. Now, post-patch, it's pointless anyhow cus we can't view old replays... bah. So i waxed it.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:46 pm

Well I finally finished the single player campaign. As a reward to myself I decided to play 2v2 with one computer partner against the AI. Put the AI on "harder" and used my Washington State Univeristy theme (thanks again Debris). Oh I played Orks as usual.

Man I suck. Maybe because I had "shared resources" so the AI was eating up more than his fair share but I got worked. In another note, it's great that morale with Orks has a workaround.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:02 pm

Post-replay: You're pretty good, goo. I didn't see anything I'd even nitpick about, really. The warp spiders disrupted his resources and attention so much early on that he didn't really recover. It didn't help that he had his entire army sitting motionless for minutes at a time, though. You retreated when you needed to, didn't when you didn't... good game.

Your micro didn't look as poor as you think it did, but then again I come from the same perspective - I'm pretty damn good at strategy/tactics, but my micro leaves something to be desired (I hardly use hotkeys).

The more I play this game the more it seems like the Orks are the hardest race to play. The Eldar are so quick and the other races have such nasty ranged firepower that it amazes me the Orks can survive assaults like they do.

I'd like to play ya one of these days... you'd probably whip my butt, but it'd be an interesting match methinks.

SH: Send the replay up.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:19 pm

I don't have it, I just exited the program.

But I'd love to organize something for the weekend. Wanna get some game time in this Saturday/Sunday?

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:36 pm

I miss the insanely long DoW threads of old . . . I'd like to get some games in some time this week myself if anyone's interested. This is the first week in months in which I have every night to myself, and I'm dying to play.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:55 pm

No doubt. I know there's more DoW people here than us.

And our AAR's will be even better because we have replays. God those were some epic struggles. I remember one 4v4 we had that had no less then 5 squiggoths enter play (though not all at the same time. There were only 3 Ork players). During that game, IIRC, we actually managed to have two opposing team members switch places, completely unplanned.

Good times. I have to emphasize though, that it's definitely not "warcraft-y". It's important to build efficiently and quickly, but it's definitely not "GO GO GO GO".

We need Kelric with his stormtroopers, Whispa and Zurai with their Eldar forces, Phantasmal and Nazoth with their Chaos boys. COME BACK!

Rabid moth · Post by **Rabid moth** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:43 pm

I just took a break until the patch came out, and when the patch came out I was busy playing Guild wars. I'll be back soon

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:56 pm

I should be able to get in some this weekend, barring disaster.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:15 am

I just pulled off a quick game as Eldar against a "harder" Space Marine AI on ... blargh, can't remember the map name. starts with an 'O'. Anyhow, played this last night. Saved the replay because I tried something different. Instead of sending my first three guardian squads out to SP/CP/Relic grab, I sent the first one created directly toward the enemy base and used the other two for resource grabbing.

That single squad created such a problem for the AI that by the 6-minute mark I had all but one or two of the strategic points capped and by 4 minutes or so left on the countdown timer I had the SP directly above his main base with a twice-upgraded listening post and a d-gun upgraded support platform, surrounded by mines, and my entire army. Usually when you've got a countdown victory situation occurring against the AI it waits until it feels it has a chance to succeed in stopping that countdown before it invades, usually with a horde of guys. However, I had so much built up at that particular strategic point that I guess the AI figured it had no chance, because it let the timer run out without even coming out of his base. I caught a couple guys peeking out, just sitting on the outskirts of their base, and popped them with a couple of the Farseer's spells, but otherwise they no-showed for the party. The game ended with a take and hold victory at the 13-minute mark (quickest game against the AI I think I've had).

Obviously, then, the AI has constant and full knowledge of the amount of location of your forces. No real revelation there, but it's interesting to consider if an AI could be developed to properly deal with "fog of war" and still mount a challenge.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:16 pm

Sure, I'm up for some DoW fun this coming weekend. Someone pick a time and I'll try and be there. I have xfire, but I rarely turn it on these days. I'll make sure it's on this weekend though.

Jow, Eldar must identify their opponent before building aspects (mostly), but the downtime is small and the risks aren't huge, even in the early game. I'm no expert Eldar player, but I watch a lot of replays, and Eldar are still extremely powerful. vs Orkz, too powerful.

Banshees are great vs marines/chaos marines right from the start. With the new 1% accuracy when in F2 stance and engaged in melee, they are even stronger. Seriously, equal cost marines vs banshees is no contest in the banshees favour. They are a little weak so any sustained fire can eat them, but if you've spent any time playing Orkz, and learning how to get "stuck in", Banshees should be second nature. Reapers are too vulnerable to melee attacks to be the first aspect built. You need some meatshields before Reapers can really shine. There is no doubt Reapers destroy heavy infantry if they are allowed to set up and fire any length of time.

Eldar have the most tricks in their bag. Makes them fun to play but harder to balance.

I play a fair amount of insane ai 1v1 skirmishes. I usually lose fast or win fast. The few games that I've managed to stay alive for awhile I end up losing anyway. Good job on winning the hour long game. Not being able to view pre-version 1.1 replays kinda sucks. Oh well.

Superhiro, shared resources are not what you think. Your allies don't have access to your resource pool. How it works is that normally, a req pt gives +10 req. With shared resources, a req pt gives +6 req to the owner, and +6 req to his ally (the number changes depending on the number of allies. +6 is for 2 allies). So a req pt gives +12 req for shared resources games (instead of +10), but each player only gets +6. So if someone isn't pulling their weight, you can see a drop in your total income because they haven't grabbed enough of their req pts. What you don't see is your ally using req. from your pool.

Orkz are tough to play, and I really didn't like them when I first got the game, but they've grown on me. They MUST be played aggressively. They have weak defenses, but they make up for it with early rush defense as their buildings can all fire (except generators I guess). Learning how to get "stuck in" is imperative for Ork players. Tying up enemy squads in CC is the only way to win for the most part. That and Wartrakks =)

Jow, thanks for the comments. I've just started building Warp Spiders first and harrassing. At my level of play, it is fairly effective, especially given the speed they kill light infantry and builders. At more skilled levels, harrassing still works, you just have to be better at it. And if your opponent is Orkz, you've already won =P I wish they would increase the initial cost of the aspect portal and lower the cost of the aspect stones, making it easier to build all aspects and have a more varied army. Right now, 2 aspects is pushing it. 3 is out of the question until mid game.

Orkz are definitely the toughest race to play, but when you see a good slugga rush with teleporting Big Mek, you wonder how any of the other races can ever win (except for spiders, damn them). Dancing is the Orkz biggest nemesis right now. Good marine dances are tough to handle.

I'm all for some 1v1. I get kinda stressed playing strangers (I don't like trash-talking kids), so friendly and competitive games are cool by me. Give me a shout any time. I'll try and turn xfire on more often this week.

I miss those games too Superhiro. The only team games I've played were with Gonegolders.

Someone set something up for this weekend. I'm sure I'll be able to make it.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:31 pm

Somebody get me my Stormtrooper decals and set up a regular time for us to play during the week and I'll try to make it. I'm not going to be any good though, it's been a while since I played multiplayer.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:19 pm

See that's why I think ultimately Orks aren't for me, which could explain why I suck so horribly with them. My RTS instincts are ALWAYS to put up some sort of defense first. I was a notorious turtler in Starcraft (love them terrans).

With the Orks I can fake the funk a little bit because I have to build those turrets anyway. But I just can't resist the temptation to upgrade them right away to 2nd tier. And I'm just not aggressive enough. Admittedly, I'm probably just getting down on myself because I've been playing the SP campgain for so long that my Ork-groove is just way off. I just get my critical mass of Orks out way too slow. Harder AI just kills me.

I think Debris is our resident Badge/Banners guru. He made a Washington State University badge/banner for me that is hella sweet.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:54 pm

Pre-dinner babble...

Ork was the first race I played and I played em exclusively for a while. That said, I'm beginning to think that, like you, they might just be the hardest race to play, especially if SM's or Eldar get heavy bolters/warp spiders going early. That'd also explain why they're the least-played race of all.

I've not yet played an Eldar who used WS's against me heavily, and I'm not sure what I'll do if that happens. The biggest drawback to the Orks I think is that you're rarely "stuck in" with someone that really doesn't want to melee with you. You end up running in circles and chasing them around the map, often into their own backup defenses. This is one reason I'm starting to think the "greater dakka damage" upgrade at the Pile O' Gunz might be the best choice for first upgrade there.

As far as their defenses go, I find an upgraded LP and upgraded WAAAAGH tower are pretty beefy and have great survivability if you've got troops fighting in the area. Otherwise unupgraded, the LP's are okay, but the WAAAAGH towers are weak as hell.

Eldar: Warp Spiders are actually a great way to start out, provided you're able to play catchup with your economy in time. They shred all the quick scout and SP grab units and you can really curtail someone's development with one squad. I

It's very possible that they have the aspects at such a high cost for a reason... If Eldar were able to get 3-4 aspects going very early they'd have a specialist available for just about every type of situation, while it's very likely an SM player, for example, would still just have his Space Marines and Scouts. It seems like, unless the SM player got a LOT of squads going, that that the Eldar's sheer flexibility would just murder them.

Further Eldar babble: I just played my second multiplayer game with them vs. Durwood on IRC (Space Marines) and smoked him pretty good. I'm ashamed to say, but they might become my race of choice just out of the sheer flexibility they have. Warlocks with entangle, the extra powers of the Farseer, FoF... None of the other races have so many options. Then again, those options cost, and you can't pay for them if you're having to continually reinforce guardian squads.

Need to go back to my Orkses before I get too Eldar-attached.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 8:23 pm

SuperHiro wrote: I think Debris is our resident Badge/Banners guru. He made a Washington State University badge/banner for me that is hella sweet.

Yeah, that's where I got my Imperial sprocket symbol from originally. It isn't around anymore though.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:53 pm

I think an imperial badge and banner can be found here.

http://www.sharpysplace.com/Warhammer40kDoW.html

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:19 pm

Thanks for the tip. I actually went looking for them after making that post and found them. Now I just have to get around to starting DoW up and patching it.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:36 am

Sorry, I would be playing with you guys. I was playing almost every day of the beta. But, since I played so much during the beta, and the single player campaign for RTS games don't really interest me, there hasn't been much reason for me to buy.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:23 am

Turtle wrote:Sorry, I would be playing with you guys. I was playing almost every day of the beta. But, since I played so much during the beta, and the single player campaign for RTS games don't really interest me, there hasn't been much reason for me to buy.

Yeah the sp campaign is decent, and it's pretty obvious they're going to add to the story (whether through expansions or free update is anyone's guess)... but every sp campaign after Starcraft's just isn't up to snuff IMO. If any company was going to challenge Starcraft, it would have certainly been Relic. So I'm kinda dissappointed they didn't bring their A-game in that respect.

I'm going to try a new strategy where I build large groups and stuff them with mad doks. Those guys are cheap and they last long. Then I'll abuse fighting juice.

Jow, when you you start building generators? I usually find the time to build one but it's a struggle to build more. I build three towers, boyz hut, one generator, then the pile.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:34 pm

I usually do hut, tower, then a generator. I've started moving the generator to as close to the beginning of the build order as I can make it, cus the earlier it's there the more power you're able to save up (cus you don't use it very much in the early game) for when ya really need it.

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:39 pm

My priorities are to build up a decent surplus of Orks so I don't have to wait on a tower being built to get some. Usually I prolong building my boyz hut because I can make slugga's right from the main base. hmmm... maybe I can just build the generator right at the start.

A big problem is that the Ork's "Melee leader" doesn't come out until late game. Now granted, that's one hell of a melee leader. The Big Mek can fake the funk but when he goes down you're really hurting. About 85% of the time I have Nob Leaders and hand grenades before a Big Mek.

Maybe better use of Stormboyz are in order. They come out earlier than Tankbustas. And now with this morale fix I can actually use them in a non-sacrifical lamb capacity.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:52 pm

Interesting. I get Big Mek out as soon as my first tower gives me 2 spare ork resource. I REALLY don't like playing leaderless, especially when someone else has a leader out, for any length of time. Plus he's great at harrassing and at tying up enemy squads via teleport pretty early. If nothing else, can always sacrifice him to bust some troops up before he goes down, giving the rest of your force time to DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA. For the record, most of the games I've played Ork in have been over (in one direction or another) before the Warboss even shows up. That's one badass leader though.

Flying assault troops are probably most important to the Orks out of any of the races cus of their ability to tie up stuff. I'm still in the habit of being too dependent on Sluggas (partially because of the pre 1.10 bug where Slugga Big Shootas were a lot more potent than Shoota ones) and don't get enough Shootas/Stormboyz going usually.

Speaking of Orks... When Doks are attached to squads, can you still pop out the Fightin' Juice, or do they have to be separated?

SuperHiro · Post by **SuperHiro** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:04 pm

Nope, you can still bust out the juice when they're attached. And you can put it on a completely different squad than the one it's attached to.

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:59 pm

I think that's the key to Orks surviving longer than they do otherwise and I don't think very many people use it. Any idea offhand what the requirement is, if any, to get Doks into play besides Ork Resource? Pile O' Gunz?