Grimoire

St. Mark · Post by **St. Mark** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:57 am

(Continuing my dubious legacy...

)

If you like whimsically old-schoolish style CRPGs, Grimoire may be of interest to you.

Here are the latest previews:

http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1016

http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1045

It reminds me of World of Xeen which is still ranks among one of my favorite CRPGs.

Grimoire looks like it will be pretty fun to play and so I'll try to keep this thread updated as I learn news on it's progress.

Ranulf · Post by **Ranulf** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:15 pm

Ahh, Cleve's masterpiece.

wankerjr · Post by **wankerjr** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:11 pm

I remember this title. It's storied history is quite entertaining as is the Cleve himself. It's not high on my list but I'm still interested.

Caligula · Post by **Caligula** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:24 pm

Is there any reason to believe this will be anything more than an ongoing, bad joke?

Mr. Fed · Post by **Mr. Fed** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:34 pm

I was going to write "Waiting for Grimoire," a "Waiting for Godot" parody that ended with Cleve hanging himself with his rope belt, but decided it was too derivative and lost interest.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:58 pm

I still remember the good ol' days, when Cleve bragged how this would blow the doors off anything we've ever seen, with extra venom aimed at Sir Tech and Steve Bauman (CGM, which I think was still Strategy Plus at the time). Now, almost a decade later, it couldn't blow the doors off a Florida double-wide in the middle of hurricane season and is being positioned as a "retro" game.

At least I'm still amused, although I'm not the least bit interested in ever playing it.

freelunch · Post by **freelunch** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:06 pm

it might be really good. Might & Magic IV and V probably took more man-hours to develop than Grimoire has.

if/when a demo appears I'll certainly take a look at it.

Dhruin · Post by **Dhruin** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:27 am

Caligula wrote:Is there any reason to believe this will be anything more than an ongoing, bad joke?

FWIW, I can vouch that the guy who wrote our two recent Grimoire Previews, did indeed play the game.

DireAussie · Post by **DireAussie** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:43 am

Classic Cleve Quotes, good for a laugh

[1999-10-23]"It's getting pretty warm to beta, actually."

[2000]"Grimoire is going to be released this year. It may not seem like it right now but it is happening."

[2001-09-05] "I may release Grimoire a couple of weeks after Wiz 8 - after all the Sir-Tech game is only 80 hours of play and mostly empty, I should let people have a good play of it so they can compare it with my masterpiece."

[2001-10-21]"My problem for my entire life has been my overwhelming modesty and humility about my own ability level"

[2002-09-23] "That's why I got 25,000 hits in a single day last month. Grimoire is more anticipated now than ever before."

[2002-05-23]"...whereas MW rapidly was consigned to the same CD shovel heap that I tossed Daggerfall and Elder Scrolls onto a long time ago. Grimoire will be out soon enough. Then the readers of this newsgroup will get to see what a decent RPG actually looks like."

[2002-10-21] "BG2 is a hollow sheep's bladder of nothingness inflated with the bloated bad smelling wind pumped into it by Interplay marketing."

[2003-10-02]"I think Grimoire will be in beta testing this year and released first thing next year, possibly even in January. Of course, my estimates have been off by a few days in the past."

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:09 pm

Andrew wrote:it might be really good. Might & Magic IV and V probably took more man-hours to develop than Grimoire has.

That doesn't mean anything. I guarantee you if I tried to develop a game, it would take years and years and suck to no end. There is a huge difference between useful hours spent and incompetent ones - I suspect Cleve's "cost of goods sold" statement is filled with the latter.

freelunch · Post by **freelunch** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:20 pm

true enough. my point was that it has been said before that the game won't be any good merely because it has spent so long in development, and that isn't necessarily the case.

the most charming and agreeable person on the planet could still produce a rubbish game. so could the hardest-working person.

Cleve could still come up with a fun game despite his many personal conflicts on usenet over the period his game has been in development.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:57 pm

true enough. my point was that it has been said before that the game won't be any good merely because it has spent so long in development, and that isn't necessarily the case.

Generally speaking, I think it is true that extended development times lead to poor products, more often than not. But the extended development time is just a symptom.

I'd kill for a copy of Joel's Doomed Game Index hotsheet right now.

Meghan · Post by **Meghan** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:38 pm

His hope for the future is to see more games like Fallout or Planescape-Torment, two of his personal favourites. “Games shouldn’t take themselves too seriously,” he said. “They need to be more light-hearted with tongue in cheek humour.”

what an odd preview ....

Still, I'd play it. I confess a morbid curiosity. But it's way down the To Do list.

freelunch · Post by **freelunch** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:26 pm

Peacedog wrote:
true enough. my point was that it has been said before that the game won't be any good merely because it has spent so long in development, and that isn't necessarily the case.
Generally speaking, I think it is true that extended development times lead to poor products, more often than not. But the extended development time is just a symptom.

I'd kill for a copy of Joel's Doomed Game Index hotsheet right now.

but in man-hours has the development time for this game really been excessive?

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:34 am

Peacedog wrote:
true enough. my point was that it has been said before that the game won't be any good merely because it has spent so long in development, and that isn't necessarily the case.
Generally speaking, I think it is true that extended development times lead to poor products, more often than not. But the extended development time is just a symptom.

I'd kill for a copy of Joel's Doomed Game Index hotsheet right now.

It's funny, way back when Knights of Legend came out (around 1990) the box touted its long development time as a good thing -- it bragged "eight calendar years in the making" or something to that effect. I think it had really been a pet project of the lead designer.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:43 am

but in man-hours has the development time for this game really been excessive?

My guess is yes, but then no to the follow up: not 8 years of full time development man hours.

The game has been ported to new codebases twice, if memory serves. That's not a task that is without time & effort.

Giles Habibula · Post by **Giles Habibula** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:51 pm

I heard somewhere that DNF was switching to the Grimoire engine...

St. Mark · Post by **St. Mark** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:41 pm

Some news from Cleve from the Grimoire Forums:

20 Dec 2004

"There has not actually been one version of Grimoire I've been working on for 7 years.

At the end of 1997 I decided to have all the artwork for the game completely redone starting from nothing, with the exception of the monster animations. That's artwork I had paid cash for, lots of it too. I funded the complete redesign of all the artwork out of my own pocket.

In 1999 I ported the DOS program to Windows and rewrote the entire GUI.

In 2000 I changed the map format and scrapped all my old maps, effectively destroying almost the entire scenario and started work again on them from scratch.

In 2002 I paid to have some more custom artwork done for the game. Then some more.

In 2003 I changed the NPC data, scrapped the parsing system and bytecode interpreter I was using and went to a strictly informal script interpreter. This meant rewriting all the NPC scripts.

I could claim that I have learned enormous amounts about designing game editing systems, game logic and game interfaces in order to make them as absolutely efficient as possible, but to prove it I will have to write my next game in record time. In the meantime, there has been a lot of learning involved in Grimoire and certainly always legacy code to cope with. If I could do it over again I might have like to do things very differently but I cannot do it over, I've already done it over too many times as it is.

People who played the last released alpha/prebeta version know there is a lot of game there - and a majority of it all works really well. Finishing it is my priority right now for any free time I have, but with so much going on at home it is hard to set aside time to work on the game. In September I moved into my new home, changed jobs and my truck engine blew a valve.

I seem to be working on it pretty solid at the moment and have made much headway on the bug list created during the recent testing. I'd give you an estimated completion date but apparently Bill wants me to refrain from doing that anymore so I won't. Needless to say, I would like the new beta test to begin tomorrow if I could make it so."

In a debate I had with him last year, Cleve said he was concerned that China would attack Australia sometime in 2005. I told him that China is hosting the Olympics in 2008 and there is no way they would lose face by starting a war and having it cancelled. (Unfortunately, he deleted the entire TEOTWAWKI forum so I don't have this on record.

)

Anyway, I think this implicitly means that he acknowledged that fact and has continued to make more progress on Grimoire. I await without qualm.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:45 pm

Also, I believe Grimoire is currently written in it's third programming language.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:57 pm

Just checking - this is the thing that was supposed to blow the doors off anything Sir-Tech ever did, right?

St. Mark · Post by **St. Mark** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:19 pm

Update: Beta Test

Source

I can't wait!

I can only replay World of Xeen, Wizardry Gold, and Betrayal at Krondor so many times...

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:41 am

St. Mark wrote:Update: Beta Test

Source

I can't wait!

I can only replay World of Xeen, Wizardry Gold, and Betrayal at Krondor so many times...

St. Mark, you are indeed, a man of faith

Jeff Jones · Post by **Jeff Jones** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:10 am

St. Mark wrote: I can't wait!

Oh yes, you can. And you will.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:25 pm

I lost track, is this Beta #4 or #5?

And once(if!) this ever comes out, I suppose we can have a neat discussion about separating the art from the artist.

morlac · Post by **morlac** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:20 pm

Soo, no one noticed that the date of the thread you linked to was April 1st?

You guys must be getting old

ChrisGwinn · Post by **ChrisGwinn** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:15 pm

morlac wrote:Soo, no one noticed that the date of the thread you linked to was April 1st?

You guys must be getting old

When it comes to grimoire, any day is April 1st.

morlac · Post by **morlac** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:06 pm

St. Mark · Post by **St. Mark** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:23 am

Final Beta has begun....

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:28 pm

Final Beta has begun....

. . .again.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:56 pm

Does anyone know how this beta compares with the 2001 beta, the 1997 beta and the 1986 beta?

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:17 pm

It is better than the 97, but in many ways comparable to the slightly superior, Basic-coded, version from 1986.

kidding, I'm not in the beta[/url].

Dhruin · Post by **Dhruin** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:26 pm

As I understand it, Cleve decided he wasn't satisfied with some aspect in each case and went on to re-write sections. A while ago he didn't like the music system and ripped it out and replaced it, for example. Given that Grimoire represents the tech of something like Wiz6, it's probably debatable if most people would think these "refinements" are even noticeable, but I've only played this version so that's a presumption.

Will this really be the "final beta". *shrug* Who knows?

ChrisGwinn · Post by **ChrisGwinn** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:34 pm

Why does anyone even pay attention to this guy? Is there any reason at all to think that it isn't going to continue to be a train wreck?

Ka Faraq Gatri · Post by **Ka Faraq Gatri** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:01 pm

most people who say they've played the game seem to have good things to say about it. I don't spare it much thought, but when a public demo is finally released it'll be a day-one download for me. maybe he can pull it off, but if not I won't have lost anything.

knob · Post by **knob** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:30 pm

Ka Faraq Gatri wrote:most people who say they've played the game seem to have good things to say about it. I don't spare it much thought, but when a public demo is finally released it'll be a day-one download for me. maybe he can pull it off, but if not I won't have lost anything.

That's how I view it too. I've heard good things about it and if it ever does see the light of day, I'll happily play it. But until then, I don't waste my time thinking/hoping for it.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:57 am

Why does anyone even pay attention to this guy? Is there any reason at all to think that it isn't going to continue to be a train wreck?

If they say --
Why, why, tell 'em that it's human nature
Why, why, does he do me that way
If they say --
Why, why, tell 'em that it's human nature
Why, why does he do me that way

Though I would also comment that there are bound to be people who lack understanding of both the history of this game and the man behind it. It is understandable that they would come along and find this project intriguing. To them, we can but say "you are not the first! Beware!"

Of course, other questions are then begged. Should the game actually appear (my breath remains free-flowing) Can we separate the art from the artist? Should we? Where are the thresholds?

Storm Crow · Post by **Storm Crow** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:09 am

ChrisGwinn wrote:Why does anyone even pay attention to this guy? Is there any reason at all to think that it isn't going to continue to be a train wreck?

Grim facsination. You know you shouldn't look, but you cannot tear your eyes away.

The Mad Hatter · Post by **The Mad Hatter** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:14 pm

The day before Grimoire is released, the Mexican hordes will descend upon America and enslave them according to the will of the Canadian communists.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:06 pm

OMFG, Grimoire is about teh evil racisms!.

Or, it isn't (see: page 4 retraction from original poster and confirmed beta tester).

Lol.

dbemont · Post by **dbemont** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:44 pm

For all of Cleve's personality disorders and the absurdities of the the discussion over at RPG Codex, it really sounds like Grimoire is going to be released.

When a beta tester is able to finish an RPG repeatedly, that tells me that the game is on the way, regardless of who is making it. And the fact it is generally comparable to Wizardry 7 is encourging to those of us who liked Wiz 7 a whole lot.