Source Engine...not sure I'm liking it

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:07 am

So i bought the silver edition of HL2 off steam yesterday. Then i downloaded and tried out the Counter Strike source version.

First, let me say that it ran great on my machine with pretty much everything cranked to max.

However, there are a couple of things I don't like which may end up affecting my enjoyment of HL2.

1) When it's dark, it's PITCH dark. There's no subtlety to any heavily shadowed areas. i tried adjusting my gamma, etc. but there are still areas where i can't see a damn thing.

2) when you move, you have a split second after the movement where you're STILL going forward. the effect feels like your character is skating everywhere. That's probably the thing that annoys me most.

Now, i did enjoy the bullet holes my gun made everywhere, and textures for doors and what not were superb. however, the immersion factor for me is in serious jeopardy if Gordon is going to be navigating his world on what seems to be rollerblades with rusty wheels.

Anyone else have a problem with this? or am i just being silly?

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:12 am

It is a little glidey -- the bounceback when you hit a chair is weird.

The physics are fantastic, though. I've spent a lot of time just shooting stuff in CS-Office and watching it fly around. By far the best physics I've seen in a game.

Nice water too. Not sure if it's my favorite. The UT2k3/4 water is pretty cool too, but it seems a little too solid, like jello or something. The reflectivity in UT2k4 is nice though, haven't seen a chance on any of the CS-Source maps to show off the reflectivity. The water in the Video Stress Test was gorgeous though, but primarily refractive (didn't notice reflection). I think the HL2 videos showed some nice reflections; I'm eager to see all that in the game. Put my new GF 6800 through its paces a little.

The ragdoll/human stuff is a little off though. Like Thief 3, the bodies end up in some awful weird contortions. I think UT2k3/4 has slightly better ragdoll.

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:14 am

As long as we are talking about engines, am I crazy for feeling that Thief 3 still has the best lighting? I've only played Doom 3 up to the demo but something about the lighting seems static. Objects cast shadows and there is nice lightplay on faces, but your flashlight shadow seems "fake" -- like it's always a few inches behind a person rather than projected in full perspective on whatever surface is behind them.

I've just never seen anything quite like those scenes in Thief 3 of flickering torchlight throwing shadows around in realtime as guards carry them past you. It feels so "alive."

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:15 am

I liked the water, but hated its interactions - splashes, walking in it, and so on. I fired a shotgun into the water expecting a pixel-shaded ripple, and got a 2d animated sprite. Blech.

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:19 am

Agreed -- the splashes were weak. The pixel shaded ripples in Morrowind's water were more impressive. Though the reflections in MW always seemed a bit weird to me.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:29 am

bluefugue wrote:As long as we are talking about engines, am I crazy for feeling that Thief 3 still has the best lighting? I've only played Doom 3 up to the demo but something about the lighting seems static. Objects cast shadows and there is nice lightplay on faces, but your flashlight shadow seems "fake" -- like it's always a few inches behind a person rather than projected in full perspective on whatever surface is behind them.

I've just never seen anything quite like those scenes in Thief 3 of flickering torchlight throwing shadows around in realtime as guards carry them past you. It feels so "alive."

nope, thief 3 set a new standard for shadows and lighting in my opinion.

Post by **godhugh** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:32 am

They toned down the engine quite a bit for CS:S in order to facilitate online play. Half Life 2 is supposed to look light years better, especially in DX9 mode.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:34 am

one thing i haven't tried is reinstalling directx 9.0c. i'll give that a shot tonight.

although i doubt that's going to help with that annoying gliding problem. does anyone know a way to stop that?

Two Sheds · Post by **Two Sheds** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:42 pm

There's no way to stop it, simply because that's just "the way it is." Personally, I haven't got a problem with it.

And I haven't had any problems with "pitch black" areas either--I've got plenty of variation in light and shadow.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:45 pm

Two Sheds wrote:There's no way to stop it, simply because that's just "the way it is." Personally, I haven't got a problem with it.

And I haven't had any problems with "pitch black" areas either--I've got plenty of variation in light and shadow.

then perhaps it's my graphic card/drivers or my directx. i'm using an ati 9800 pro. the shadowed areas are simply black for me. walk into them and there's no variation in lighting at all.

disarm · Post by **disarm** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:19 pm

bluefugue wrote:It is a little glidey -- the bounceback when you hit a chair is weird.

The physics are fantastic, though. I've spent a lot of time just shooting stuff in CS-Office and watching it fly around. By far the best physics I've seen in a game.

the bounce-back from objects is the only real "complaint" that i have from playing a little CS:S. i'm not sure why you get pushed back when you walk up to an object, but it is a little annoying...not a game ruiner though.

i've also spent some time destroying CS-Office. the realism of some of the objects is impressive...they PCs look like Dell computers with a Logitech keyboard and MS Intellimouse Optical. when you shoot the PC cases, they pop open and show a very obvious ATI video card inside. it's also kind cool to check out the trash cans in Office...they actually have individual paper wads and cans that go flying if you shoot into them. shooting stuff at the produce stand in Havana is pretty neat too...watch watermelons, bananas, and oranges go flying. it really doesn't change the gameplay for CS, but it looks cool 8)

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:32 pm

I loved shooting the heatsink and RAM sticks off of the motherboard!

It is possible that the movement has been tweaked differently for CS than for HL2. Different games, different control needs. We'll see when it is released.

Two Sheds · Post by **Two Sheds** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:19 pm

In mere hours.

Zekester · Post by **Zekester** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:52 am

Any update on HL:Source?

Re-playing the updated original is a major purchase-breaker for me, so keep updating!

Pretty please?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:11 am

Just started a new thread on that.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:15 pm

Okay, i played a little HL2 this morning before work.

First thing I noticed is that the "gliding" problem I mentioned earlier isn't nearly as pronounced in HL2 as it was in CS: Source...at least to me. Whether this means I just got used to it or it's some setting that's just right by default in HL2 but needs adjusting in CS is what I'm not sure about.

Secondly, the graphics are simply amazing. At first I was in the "meh, it's alright...but nothing to write home to mom about." then i went outside into the courtyard for the first time. THAT'S when i began composing my letter to mom. the depth of detail in characters, textures, lighting is astounding. well worth the extended wait, if you ask me.

Speaking of lighting, i still have one remaining complaint about the source engine. i don't think it handles deep shadows that well. when you're in the janitor's room at the very begining of the game, it's impossible to even make out shapes in the corner of the room. i had to blindly stumble around for 10 minutes before finding a way out. and upping the gamma settings does nil. the shadows in the Source engine are two shades: none and pitch black. they need to study the thief III model for future iterations of this engine.

i don't have enough gametime in to give my impressions of the story, but that's for another thread anyway.

GungHo · Post by **GungHo** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:41 pm

hepcat: One word for ya: flashlight. You get it pretty early in the game and for the(so far Ive found in 4 hours of playtime) very few pitch dark areas, the flashlight works fine.

But I dont feel even those 'pitch black' areas are near as difficult to navigate as they were in Doom 3.

My one complaint so far are the load times...they're quite long and just as in the original, relatively frequent.

Everything else though is f'n amazing. Well 'cept maybe the crates. Good lord there are a bunch of 'em.

Napoleon · Post by **Napoleon** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:44 pm

hepcat wrote: Speaking of lighting, i still have one remaining complaint about the source engine. i don't think it handles deep shadows that well. when you're in the janitor's room at the very begining of the game, it's impossible to even make out shapes in the corner of the room. i had to blindly stumble around for 10 minutes before finding a way out. and upping the gamma settings does nil. the shadows in the Source engine are two shades: none and pitch black. they need to study the thief III model for future iterations of this engine.

weird, I completely don't have that problem. There are definitely different gradations of black over here. I've got a Radeon 9800 Pro with drivers from, ooh, about 2-3 months ago (haven't upgraded since then, don't know if there are newer ones). So, I'm thinking that might be a problem on your end, for some reason.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:53 pm

Napoleon wrote:I've got a Radeon 9800 Pro with drivers from, ooh, about 2-3 months ago (haven't upgraded since then, don't know if there are newer ones). So, I'm thinking that might be a problem on your end, for some reason.

ATI released 4.11 last Friday - and I suspect they are optimized for the HL2 engine.

Eco-Logic · Post by **Eco-Logic** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:39 pm

GungHo wrote:hepcat: One word for ya: flashlight. You get it pretty early in the game and for the(so far Ive found in 4 hours of playtime) very few pitch dark areas, the flashlight works fine.

But I dont feel even those 'pitch black' areas are near as difficult to navigate as they were in Doom 3.

My one complaint so far are the load times...they're quite long and just as in the original, relatively frequent.

Everything else though is f'n amazing. Well 'cept maybe the crates. Good lord there are a bunch of 'em.

Chances are you're probably allowed to shoot while holding the flash light as well, eh?

What a freaking concept.

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:44 pm

hepcat, about your dark shadows -- what video card and drivers are you using?

Napoleon · Post by **Napoleon** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:19 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Napoleon wrote:I've got a Radeon 9800 Pro with drivers from, ooh, about 2-3 months ago (haven't upgraded since then, don't know if there are newer ones). So, I'm thinking that might be a problem on your end, for some reason.
ATI released 4.11 last Friday - and I suspect they are optimized for the HL2 engine.

Cool, thanks for the heads up!

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:28 pm

Freezer-TPF- wrote:hepcat, about your dark shadows -- what video card and drivers are you using?

he he, just call me Barnabus...

anyway, bad esoteric pun aside, i'm using an ati 9800 pro with 4.10 drivers (i use the omega drivers and he hasn't released any based on the 4.11 drivers yet...although he's usually only behind by a matter of days).

why? have you heard some rumblings on video card compatiblity and HL2?

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:37 pm

try adjusting your gamma, there's a tab in the video option, you need to see all three lines

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:39 pm

naednek wrote:try adjusting your gamma, there's a tab in the video option, you need to see all three lines

mentioned that in an earlier post. adjusting the gamma seems to do absolutely nothing at all.

don't get me wrong folks, it's quite playable and looks great. it's just that i dread having to enter a room without lights or a dark alley because i essentially just go to a completely black screen. then i find myself spinning around and around trying to find a light source anywhere to get my bearings.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:36 pm

I don't know if it helps narrow your problem down, but dark areas are fine for me. They are dark, yes, but I can make out furniture, walls, and so forth - about like real darkness.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:38 pm

Blackhawk wrote:I don't know if it helps narrow your problem down, but dark areas are fine for me. They are dark, yes, but I can make out furniture, walls, and so forth - about like real darkness.

thanks bh, and thanks to everyone else for their suggestions. i'll be playing tonight (in between levelling my scout up in eqII

) so i'll try some of your suggestions, fiddle with drivers, settings, etc..

it may just turn out that when i get the updated drivers from omega that things will be fine.

but i do miss the shadows from thief III...man was that well done.

bluefugue · Post by **bluefugue** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:01 pm

Yeah. Thief's textures are blurrier and the animations were weak, but still a sweet looking game. Some moments were like a Rembrandt come to life...

Reemul · Post by **Reemul** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:39 pm

4.12 beta drivers are available, designed for Hl2 with some optimisations.

i`m very impressed with how well it runs. 1024 res with everything on max and Antistrop x8 and im getting a nice 50fps on a 3gig with a 9800 pro and 1 gig ram.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:19 am

well, i did some more tinkering last night. it's better, but it still could be a little better in the area of lighting (well, specifically the shadows as mentioned above).

of course, it's probably just my setup as i tried to adjust the gamma again last night and could not, for the life of me, find the "three lines of text" that i'm supposed to be seeing as i move the slider. anyone else have this problem? or am i just not looking at the right thing (I only have a big black box under the slider with nothing in it).