Just how Invasive is Steam??

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Beergut
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Just how Invasive is Steam??

Post by Beergut »

I've heard some people here say that Steam is not "invasive".

But I then hear reports like the following:

1) You can't play the single player game -- at all -- without it connecting to Steam and the Internet. (Talking about after the intitial activation)

2) As soon as you turn on your computer Steam fires up and tries to connect to the Internet.

3) Steam uploads data constantly from your computer whenever it is on without any indication that this is happening.

4) The "option" to play completely off-line requires the jumping through of so many hoops that the average player will NEVER be able to figure it out!

Have I been misled? I don't have the game yet. Please enlighten me.

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Re: Just how Invasive is Steam??

Post by Zaxxon »

Beergut wrote:1) You can't play the single player game -- at all -- without it connecting to Steam and the Internet. (Talking about after the intitial activation)
Not true.
2) As soon as you turn on your computer Steam fires up and tries to connect to the Internet.
Are we certain that this is happening after the user has all their games downloaded? Even with the Silver package on a 4MBit connection, this took more than a day for me. If there are still things remaining to download, this is expected.
3) Steam uploads data constantly from your computer whenever it is on without any indication that this is happening.
Not for me. Do you have a verifiable report?
4) The "option" to play completely off-line requires the jumping through of so many hoops that the average player will NEVER be able to figure it out!
Thus is the way of online registration--be glad that there are hoops to jump through if you're so inclined to do so.
Have I been misled? I don't have the game yet. Please enlighten me.
Sorry if I come off as a little assinine; I have had no problems with Steam as of yet, and haven't run into the issues you describe.
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Post by Biyobi »

1) You can play HL2 without being on-line. However, Steam tries to connect to the Internet by default and will apparently try for a minute or so to reach it's servers. If it can't it will drop into offline mode, allowing you to play.

2) When Steam installs it sets itself to start up when you boot. Going into 'MSCONFIG' and unchecking it will allow you to start Steam on your own, when you want.

3) I don't know what data Steam sends back and forth, but odds are it isn't doing much more than making sure the games you have installed are up to date and just verifying that you have an active Internet connection in case you want to start up CounterStrike or something.

4) This one kinda ties into your #1 (you CAN play offline). I agree that it's a complete pain in the ass to get to work and they should make some serious changes here.
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Post by ImLawBoy »

1) You can play the single player game without connecting to the internet after you initial activation.

2) You can take Steam out of your startup, and you won't have to worry about this. For now, Steam start up whenever I start up, but I haven't edited my startup to remove it yet.

3) I'm not aware of this, but I can't deny it.

4) After your initial registration, it's a simple matter of disconnecting from the internet and starting the game. I don't think that's terribly complicated. ;)

I think you've been mislead - at least in part.
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Post by ImLawBoy »

Where are these complications? If I'm not online, I just start the game and it works.
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Post by Noman »

1) Offline mode is enabled once the game is fully updated and the password is saved. In the retail case, the key needs to be fully validated as well.
(Don't ask how a key can be partly validated)

2) Steam lets you turn auto-starts off. Explore the Steam->Settings menu

3) Not true

4) No hoops. Steam by default is set up to use offline mode. So install the game, once all the three things are done I mentioned above in (1) ( and that happens automatically as well), the game will be ready for offline mode. The offline mode itself doesn't require anything extra. If you fire up the game, when you don't have internet connectivity, the game will fall back on offline mode.

Check out the HL2/Steam Questions thread. I mentioned some of the menu choices there.
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Post by gorham09 »

There is an option in the steam configuration menu to set it to NOT load when you start up- so you don't need to fool with msconfig.

Also as far as the uploading- I use a very common sense approach to that, in that I have never seen the activity light on my dsl modem while I've had steam activated when I didn't expect to see activity- so I don't know about this secret uploading thing (unless it can upload data without the activity light flashing on my modem, of course)

When I first set up steam it did take quite a while to download all the files for various valve games that I had. So that may account for the suspiciions of uploading without your consent.

I don't have half life2, but I know that I can still play the non-steamified version of half life by just running a different executable.


[Edit- I am not crazy. I was typing my post when noman posted. Hence the repetitive nature of my post]
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Post by Blackhawk »

It was me that brought up the 'not intrusive' point. Not meaning to be rude, but it was the word I was objecting to:
Of, engaging in, or given to armed aggression: an invasive military force.
Marked by the tendency to spread, especially into healthy tissue: an invasive carcinoma.
Of or relating to a medical procedure in which a part of the body is entered, as by puncture or incision.
Tending to intrude or encroach, as upon privacy.
Steam doesn't collect information except what you give it when signing up. It doesn't hide itself on your PC. It doesn't scan any part of your system other than the game. It doesn't trick you. It starts up automatically, but if you uncheck one very obvious option, it doesn't. The option isn't secret, isn't hidden, doesn't re-enable itself, and doesn't leave parts of itself running when you don't start it.

It might be inconvenient - #1 and #4 on your list - but it doesn't invade your system, do secret things, or make itself difficult to remove.

RealPlayer, Quicktime, MSN Messenger, these are invasive. They go out of their way to do things without being clear what they're doing, they refuse to be turned off, they collect information, turn themselves back on, reconfigure themselves. They are invasive. Steam is potentially inconvenient, mostly due to some technical issues rather than design.
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Post by Beergut »

Thank you to everyone for your responses. I feel much better now about going to the store and slapping down my hard-earned cash. A lot of the issues I raised were triggered by comments made by people who were perhaps a bit pissed at the opening day problems. If things are smooth sailing now, that's great! Thanks again for your patient clarification of these points.
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Post by LawBeefaroni »

Tending to intrude or encroach, as upon privacy.
As upon privacy. But not limited to. May include CPU usage, memory, storage, etc. Now I know steam is minimal in its system requirements. But I want to play HL2. I don't want to run Steam. It is a third application that regulates and mitigates how I operate HL2. I consider that intrusive. Intrusive like a carcinoma or an invading military force? No. Obviously. But intrusive nonetheless.

I'm probably just overzealous, I'm the type that cursed any game that included Gamespy. But dammit, if I walk into a store and physically buy the game, I should be able to play it, at least single player without, having to beg permission from Steam. If they want to authenticate for multiplayer? Fine. Half-Life did that. You need a connection to play online, while you're there authenticate. No big deal. But not for single player.

If they want to do an all electronic distribution model, great! Make me sign up, bill me, whatever. But they can't really break ground. Retail sales are too much a part of their revenue so they let you buy it, but not play it. Until they've checked you out.
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Post by Al »

Unless you're on a slow connection, I'd go the Steam route rather than the hard copy route. All you'll get is a box and 5 cds. Bronze will get you the same thing but you won't have a CD check. Step up to Silver and you also won't have to buy DoD later. (Activision, not VU, has the rights to DoD which is why it isn't included in the boxed versions.)
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Post by Blackhawk »

May include CPU usage, memory, storage, etc. Now I know steam is minimal in its system requirements. But I want to play HL2. I don't want to run Steam. It is a third application that regulates and mitigates how I operate HL2. I consider that intrusive. Intrusive like a carcinoma or an invading military force? No. Obviously. But intrusive nonetheless.
I have to disagree with that. Steam is not seperate from Half-Life 2. It is part of the program. It is a seperate executable, but it is part of the program. It takes place of other secondary programs - SecuRom, SafeDisk, StarForce. They run with the program and regularly check things in the background, even affecting performance in some games.

I do think Steam is an annoyance, but it is less of an annoyance than the other, traditional options. We've just gotten so used to the other options that we don't even think about them anymore.
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Post by RunningMn9 »

Blackhawk wrote:I do think Steam is an annoyance, but it is less of an annoyance than the other, traditional options. We've just gotten so used to the other options that we don't even think about them anymore.
It doesn't even seem annoying to me. It's like complaining that I want to run Windows XP, but I'll be damned if I'm going to run that invasive piece of crap Service Manager.

It makes no sense.

Maybe I am just really easy-going - but some of you seem ridiculous.
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Post by LawBeefaroni »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:I do think Steam is an annoyance, but it is less of an annoyance than the other, traditional options. We've just gotten so used to the other options that we don't even think about them anymore.
It doesn't even seem annoying to me. It's like complaining that I want to run Windows XP, but I'll be damned if I'm going to run that invasive piece of crap Service Manager.

It makes no sense.

Maybe I am just really easy-going - but some of you seem ridiculous.
It's impossible to argue with you anything-goes, let-my-rights-be-trampled, fat and happy joe-consumer types. Sheesh. You'll eat every piece of marketing hype, won't you. Hopefully when Gabe Newell is robotically controlling your body via Steam to carry out this or that nefarious scheme, "some of us" will be around to save you. :wink:
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Post by Zaxxon »

LawBeefaroni wrote:It's impossible to argue with you anything-goes, let-my-rights-be-trampled, fat and happy joe-consumer types. Sheesh. You'll eat every piece of marketing hype, won't you. Hopefully when Gabe Newell is robotically controlling your body via Steam to carry out this or that nefarious scheme, "some of us" will be around to save you. :wink:
I fail to see how replacing one copyright-protecting program with another, less nefarious copyright-protecting program results in trampled rights and ol Gabe controlling my body. :?:
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Post by LawBeefaroni »

Zaxxon wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:It's impossible to argue with you anything-goes, let-my-rights-be-trampled, fat and happy joe-consumer types. Sheesh. You'll eat every piece of marketing hype, won't you. Hopefully when Gabe Newell is robotically controlling your body via Steam to carry out this or that nefarious scheme, "some of us" will be around to save you. :wink:
I fail to see how replacing one copyright-protecting program with another, less nefarious copyright-protecting program results in tramplet rights and ol Gabe controlling my body. :?:
:arrow: 2003: Steam->

:arrow: 2004: HL2 authentication->

:arrow: 2006: TFC2 authentication->

:arrow: 2006: TFC2 is hacked, freely available->

:arrow: 2007: SteamII released to prevent piracy, credit card required, online only, IP tracked->

:arrow: 2007: CSX (Counter Strike: eXtreme) authentication, no B&M distribution, multiplayer only->

:arrow: 2007: HL3 authentication, no B&M distribution->

:arrow: 2008: VPNs, district firewalls, DRG Consortium regulations wreak havoc on SteamII's IP tracking->

:arrow: 2008: SteamIII introduces biometric authentication->

:arrow: 2009: CSNeXT (Counter Strike: NEwell eXtreme Tournament) authentication, no B&M distribution, single player component included, stats based on users stats as determined by biometric data->

:arrow: 2009 or 2010: HL4 authentication, uses national RFID tags in addition to biometric data to authenticate user. Government assigned IP addresses replaced by RFID authentication developed by Valve/Steam->

:arrow:

Oh, crap, BBL. Someone is here...
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Post by Zaxxon »

:p
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Post by JCC »

The whole connecting to Steam to play my single player game part doesn't bother me, but why do I have to subject myself to the rectal-probulator before I can play?! THAT'S what I find invasive!! :P
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Post by Smoove_B »

I didn't want to say anthing, but ever since I installed Steam on my PC, I keep seeing some guy in a dark suit carrying a briefcase in my neighborhood. Every time I try to approach him, he just disappears.

Odd.
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Post by ChrisGwinn »

Nice. So I'm good until at least Half-Life 3, maybe longer if I keep giving money to the ACLU.

I don't think it's fair to directly compare Steam to a copy protection program like SafeDisk. As a consumer, I gain nothing when SafeDisk is used. It causes problems, increases the cost of the production of the product, and I get nothing out of it. Steam lets me buy online, which I view as a plus, and it handles patching and storage of install media.
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Post by Odin »

RunningMn9 wrote: Maybe I am just really easy-going
Can't believe nobody else found this hilarious.
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Post by Giles Habibula »

LawBeefaroni wrote: It's impossible to argue with you anything-goes, let-my-rights-be-trampled, fat and happy joe-consumer types.
Maybe they make more money than us...Hell I don't get it either.
As for me: I make $8/hr., thus one full day's pay would be spent on this game for me. And I'm one of those Luddites that still re-installs and plays Thief now and then, so it's vital to me that playing HL2 is NOT a one-time-only deal. Meaning I want the freedom to install it and enjoy it 10 years from now with no hacking required.

Oh sure you all say; Valve and Steam are making a fortune. They aren't going anywhere. They will always be there in the future to authenticate my install. Sorry, but bigger companies than this have gone under before. And you guessed it; I'm still running Win98 for the same reason. Actually, I'm going to cave in on that one very soon out of necessity, but under protest dammit.

I'm wanting to play HL2 in the worst way, and I may end up sacrificing my principles to do so; I don't know yet. -sigh-

See, it's the creeping effect I worry about also. What next? A monthly fee to run Windows? Or a single player game?
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Post by Zekester »

I'm wanting to play HL2 in the worst way, and I may end up sacrificing my principles to do so; I don't know yet. -sigh-
Take comfort in knowing that you're not alone in this constant uphill struggle.

I'm also going down kicking and screaming to the last, so hang in there man!

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Post by farley2k »

I find it invasive. I installed HL2 and Steam....fine

After installing and playing a bit I closed HL2, I also closed Steam. Then I rebooted.

Just for fun after reboot I checked task manager - oddly Steam was running! Huh, it wasn't in the system tray! Very odd. So I used regedit to check what was loading on startup - oddly I found an entry for steam which was meant to run in -silent mode at startup!

Now why would Steam need to run all the time? And why - even if they had a good reason to run even when I am not playing a Valve game - did they feel it was best to put it in -silent mode?

Huh...not invasive? A program that silently installs itself to run all the time, and tries to hide itself? My soundcard, my anti-virus, my ATI card all run when I start my machine and they are respectful enough to put icon in my system tray so I know they are running. Valve seems to think it is better to hide itself from me.

I wouldn't mind really if they wanted to run all the time but to try to hide it...that is just rude. I found it because I have a clue how my computer runs. Average users will never know that Steam is always running using about 6 megs of memory - all the time!!

I consider that invasive.
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Post by Giles Habibula »

farley2k wrote:
Huh...not invasive? A program that silently installs itself to run all the time, and tries to hide itself? My soundcard, my anti-virus, my ATI card all run when I start my machine and they are respectful enough to put icon in my system tray so I know they are running. Valve seems to think it is better to hide itself from me.
HL2 is such a big deal that they figure most people bought their PCs exclusively to run it. And they figure that since Steam is the wave of the future, naturally most folks will want to be ready for it, since that is of course how we will all be buying our games.

I'm only being partly facetious here, since from what I've read on these forums, at least 90% of these folks are embracing it.
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Post by disarm »

[sarcasm]
you know, in my version of Steam there's a little checkbox in the Settings menu that says "Run Steam when Windows Starts" that is marked by default. i wonder what would happen if i unchecked that box...

i'd better not try it though...if it does what i'm guessing, i wouldn't have anything to complain about afterward...
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Post by Zaxxon »

farley2k wrote:Just for fun after reboot I checked task manager - oddly Steam was running! Huh, it wasn't in the system tray! Very odd. So I used regedit to check what was loading on startup - oddly I found an entry for steam which was meant to run in -silent mode at startup!

Now why would Steam need to run all the time? And why - even if they had a good reason to run even when I am not playing a Valve game - did they feel it was best to put it in -silent mode?
Uhh, I see the -silent and all, but there sure is a nice system tray icon. And unchecking the nice obvious box that disarm mentioned sure does disable steam from running. ;)
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Post by Turtle »

Yep, I have the system tray icon too, with no hidden run commands in my registry. I set steam not to run at windows startup. It's no big deal since as soon as I doubleclick the HL2 icon to play, it'll fire up steam and HL2. Then, I make sure to disable it.

That's not saying that I like steam, but you have to dislike it for what it's really doing,
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Post by Blackhawk »

Steam is on a user's system for two purposes - to install Valve games and validate them on launch. It does nothing else, and the few things it does are disabled and stay disabled with a clear, up front set of check-boxes.

Sometimes when something new is introduced that doesn't do what people are used to, people are so desperate to find something to be angry about that they start making things up - over interpreting simple functions into some vast conspiracy.
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Post by farley2k »

Wow you people are sheep!

a. why should I have to specifically ask a program not to run all the time - even when not needed?

b. The system tray icon comes up when you run a steam game but not when you just reboot and have that "-silent" option.

c. Agreeing to a negative is not intuitive and lots of people don't catch that. It is a tipical method spyware uses to make sure that folks don't stop the installalation.

d. (I guess a. in another form) why the hell is is set to run all the time anyway? It should never even be an option! Why would you need that?



All you folks who are PC savey are fine but the general consumer is just going to be more and more confused.

Today it is just steam but imagine when WoW wants to run all the time too, and Pirates!, and Rome: Total War, and Doom 3, etc. Soon it is exactly like spyware! sucking away your resources for no benifit
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Post by farley2k »

Blackhawk wrote:Steam is on a user's system for two purposes - to install Valve games and validate them on launch. It does nothing else, and the few things it does are disabled and stay disabled with a clear, up front set of check-boxes.

Sometimes when something new is introduced that doesn't do what people are used to, people are so desperate to find something to be angry about that they start making things up - over interpreting simple functions into some vast conspiracy.
So explain again why it should be running all the time? Why that should even be an option?

And this isn't something new. Spyware has existed for a long, long time. Stupid programs have been forced on users for a long, long time. Heck just install an HP printer! Tons of wonderful programs to help customers.


How said anything about a conspiracy? All I see are crappy programers who want to install stuff for no reason! (keeping in mind the only functions of Steam are to launch Valve games - it has no function running when I am not launching a Valve game)
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Post by Smoove_B »

farley2k wrote:Wow you people are sheep!

d. (I guess a. in another form) why the hell is is set to run all the time anyway? It should never even be an option! Why would you need that?

Adjust the tinfoil hat a bit - their mind rays are getting in.

It's set to run all the time - as near as I can tell - so that when you boot up the computer Steam automatically checks for the most current patches/updates for all the games you have installed. That way, when you want to play, you just do it, rather than staring Steam, allowing it to check, download, apply THEN go.

If David Icke tells you that you should disable it on startup...you can. No biggie.
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Post by Zaxxon »

farley2k wrote:b. The system tray icon comes up when you run a steam game but not when you just reboot and have that "-silent" option.
For the second time, no. The system tray icon always comes up, with or without -silent.
sucking away your resources for no benifit [sic]
You may not see it as a benefit, but I do. I don't have to worry about patching the 10 or so Steam-powered games on my PC. They're always up to date, and always ready to play. Different strokes for different folks and all.
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Post by disarm »

farley2k wrote:a. why should I have to specifically ask a program not to run all the time - even when not needed?
you act like Steam is the first program to do this...what about all the others? IM software, Quicktime, video drivers (ATI does), the list goes on...they all put something running in your system tray by default that is very easily disabled. will you complain about them as well?
b. The system tray icon comes up when you run a steam game but not when you just reboot and have that "-silent" option.
that "-silent" comment is present in the command line for everyone...it has nothing to do with hiding the system tray icon or running Steam in some kind of ultra-secret conspiracy mode. it's present on my system and the icon is visible plain as day in my system tray. when i removed the checkbox to stop Steam from running automatically, that line is removed from the Startup list of MSConfig and Steam does not run. i bet everyone else here would say exactly the same thing.
c. Agreeing to a negative is not intuitive and lots of people don't catch that. It is a tipical method spyware uses to make sure that folks don't stop the installalation.
you at no point "agree to a negative." Steam runs by default, and the exact wording of the checkbox to disable it is "Run Steam when Windows Starts"...remove the checkmark and Steam goes away on startup.
d. (I guess a. in another form) why the hell is is set to run all the time anyway? It should never even be an option! Why would you need that?
Steam is capable of running in the background all the time so that it can automatically update your games any time that a new patch is released. it also has the ability to automatically deliver news about the games you own, as well as upcoming/new releases...and this is very easily disabled by unchecking the option in the Settings menu. lastly, Steam has an instant messaging system that allows you to keep in touch with other friends/gamers playing Steam games...some people like their IM clients to run at startup, so the option is there. all of the default auto options are very quickly and easily disabled with just a few clicks in the Settings menu and by no means require extensive computer knowledge or "PC savey"to figure out.
Today it is just steam but imagine when WoW wants to run all the time too, and Pirates!, and Rome: Total War, and Doom 3, etc. Soon it is exactly like spyware! sucking away your resources for no benifit
when other games include software that wants to run in the background, i will evaluate each situation and decide for myself if i want it running or not...then i'll turn them off if i don't like it. these programs are not like spyware unless they're secretly reporting back information about myself or my computer without my knowledge...and no game is doing this yet. i also think that Steam does have benefits and don't mind it "sucking away my resources" in the least.
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