WoW Review 9.5 - Greg Kasavin Is A Biased Unfair Poopy Head!

[Ummagumma]

I've found that sites/mags are sometimes incapable of giving a less-than-great review for a game if the name is big enough. For instance PC Gamer gave Alpha Centauri some ungodly high score, and I couldn't stand the game. My friends and I were very excited about it before it came out, but we all hated it, even though we considered Civilization to e one of the best games ever made. Our only conclusion was that they let Sid Mier slide on the reviews.

That's where you and I differ. I consider SMAC one of the greatest RTS's ever.

[Lorini]

That's where you and I differ. I consider SMAC one of the greatest RTS's ever.

Um, you are joking, right? SMAC of course is turned based all the way.

Lorini

[tals]

What negative publicity? I've seen people saying they prefer WOW to EQ2 but that is it. I am certainly enjoying EQ2 - the quests are very well done and combat is fast and furious.

Certainly would not say you have made a bad choice.

Tals

[Bob]

And my Internet connection keeps dying. I'm really looking forward to playing it, but the constant negativity is making me think I might have made the wrong choice.

There seem to be a lot of vocal people that prefer WoW. I prefer EQ2. I may pop into WoW again when/if I get sick of EQ2. It's getting to be like saying you like Britney Spears or something... you're embarrased that you do, and feel like you should hide it.

Addendum: I do not like Britney Spears.

[YellowKing]

I think a lot of that perception is based on developer more than game.

Blizzard is a reputable company known for high-quality games, and there is an enormous fan base for the Warcraft mythos.

Sony unfortunately has had some duds (Star Wars Galaxies, some of the later EQ expansions), and during their EQ years they pissed off a lot of their customer base. It became very fashionable to hate Sony, a fact only exacerbated by the SWG problems.

In the end you have a highly respected company with an enormously popular game world entering the MMORPG genre with a fresh start (Blizzard) going up against a company a lot of people love to hate with a game world a lot of people love to hate entering the MMORPG genre with a heck of a lot of baggage (Sony). That said I don't think the comments I've seen are at all surprising.

I believe the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. EQ2 is probably a much better game than a lot of people are giving it credit for, and WoW probably doesn't deserve quite the hype it's getting. Doesn't mean EQ2 doesn't have flaws or that WoW isn't a good game. But you kind of have to step back and see through some of the rhetoric on both sides.

To be quite honest I absolutely HATE having two major MMORPGs launched at the same time. As I mentioned before, I typically end up playing every MMORPG that comes out. In the past, releases have been spaced far enough apart that I was generally able to get my fill of one before the next one launched. And in the past, many of them have not been revolutionary enough to warrant serious long-term commitment anyway.

WoW/EQ2 is the first time I've seen two huge MMORPGs come out in which either one is something I could see myself playing for several months, if not years. And I don't know how I can do that when I barely have time to play just one. And we don't even get the benefit of a disastrous launch or show-stopping collection of bugs to make the choice easy for us. Add in great single player games like Half Life 2, the upcoming Knights of the Old Republic 2, Pirates, Halo 2, etc. and it becomes quite depressing. I realize that as an adult I simply do not have time to play all the games I want to play.

I'm sure a lot of that stress is what makes me so passionate about one of these games over another. I almost have to take sides in order not to go completely insane.

[DiscoJason]

I feel the same way as YK does on this issue. I think both WoW and EQ2 are wonderful games and I wish I could play them both. I played both in beta and made my choice of going with EQ based on the playtime I had with both games. It is a shame they both had to come out at the exact same time. I do really think that the Gamespot scores are off (I think the WoW one is too high and the EQ2 one is too low and as I have mentioned before, I would probably give them both about a 9).

The reason I went with EQ2 over WoW is that I like the crafting in EQ2 better, I think the combat in EQ2 is deeper (in that the battles take longer, allowing for more strategy and the ability to perform Heroic Opportunities), and I like the quests better in EQ2 as far as how you obtain them and what you use them for (getting them from books or clickable objects in game and also using quests to gain access to zones). I am also one of those people who thinks that levelling through WoW so quickly isn't a bonus to the game because I tend to like to enjoy my time with the game and don't feel I have to rush up to the max level. I think EQ2 has it about right with leveling times and I don't even really worry about my level much at all while I am gaining my xp. Some nights I get in xp groups, but most nights I focus on doing quests or crafting.

Now, sure I like EQ2 better than WoW for those reasons, but I recognize that WoW has its own merits over EQ2. Quick levelling is a great thing for those without time to dedicate to getting a character to high levels. I like the PvP and I like the fact that there is no real zoning in the game. Those are all great things. I also like the Hunter class in this game and how youhave a pet that you actually raise in level and teach new skills. What a great concept and one I wish they would have done in SWG like they had originally planned. The art style in the game is very nice and colorful and I think that that adds a lot to the personality of the game.

So you see, I can rave about both games, but I went with EQ2. It was a hard decision to make and I hated the fact that I had to make it when I really wanted to play both. So yeah, I think Greg went a little overboard with giving WoW a super high score and EQ2 a fairly mediocre score when I think that they are both games deserving excellent scores. Doesn't matter in the end, though, because I know that no matter which I would have gone with, I couldn't have lost. That is certainly a good feeling.

[Bob]

I think that they are both games deserving excellent scores. Doesn't matter in the end, though, because I know that no matter which I would have gone with, I couldn't have lost.

And conversely, whichever you choose, you lose, too. (Or at least, delay.)

[Faldarian]

I'm playing both games right now.

EQ2

Pros:

The graphics are insanely good. Incredibly good. You can talk about taste, and how you prefer WoW's graphics, and that's fine; but if you're talking about "plastic playground" and all that crap, you haven't even seen EQ2 being played. Some of the player models, like humans, don't look quite right. However, everyone else is outstanding... and the terrain and dungeons are unbelievable. You cannot appreciate how the game looks until you've seen it in action, end of story; screenshots don't do the game justice.

Voice acting. Even when it's not the best, it makes an awesome amount of difference. The game feels alive, the areas feel like they're populated and not just placed to give you a place to sell things etc. Quests are all voiced, which makes me actually interested in finding out what they're about. Kill task again? Boring, except that now I know it's because Dancer wants help getting rid of gnolls who have taken over the last remnants of an ancient grove (which I'd never know if it was just text to skip.) The sound is all incredible.

Items are diverse and interesting, but you do need to get to a higher level to really enjoy it (like EQ1, really). Once you get past 20, the game opens up a great deal and you encounter a fairly different group of people and class dynamics. Grouping is more than just whack the monster with the HO system, and it makes for a great experience with a steady group you're familiar with.

The quest system is well implemented, aside from the log (get to that later). The guild system is more complex and involving than any game previous, as well as the crafting system. I have level 14 characters who have done and completed 120+ quests, and they were interesting enough to remember the names of people involved and what most were about when I go back with an alt.

Finding something to fight is easy with the con system, which shows a color scale and level as well as group or group+ in it.

Spells and abilities are all useful, and you don't just get them when you level; you can get new abilities mid-level. Racial abilities and so on also add another cool carrot to the line.

There's little downtime at all.

Cons:

While solo friendly to a degree, certain classes have a much better experience with it; and you'll never get the most out of the game without grouping. It is still fun to solo, but it's obvious it's not the focus of the game.

Character diversity isn't much until post-20. The game doesn't take off until after 10 really (although I was sucked in at level 1).

System requirements are very high to get a good experience.

The quest journal is cluttered and hard to use sometimes.

ONLY 4 CHARACTERS PER ACCOUNT!??!?! argh. Some of the eq2players content should be free with a game account and isn't.

No PvP, although that doesn't bother me personally in the least.

The broker system is awful. A big step back.


WoW

Pros:

Easy to solo. You can solo almost anywhere, with any class I've tried.

The graphics are very good if you like the style, and the game runs great even on lower end systems.

The class system is tried and true. I like EQ2's system, but it's nice to just jump in and try something new in WoW without having to work your way toward it. WoW is very accessible, very streamlined, and really very simple to play.

There's plenty of quests to do, and the rewards are generally pretty good. Most of them can be soloed, and you don't lose them permanently if you cancel them before they're done should you need room in the journal.

The sound is very good. I love the music when you first start the game... I sit and listen to it and turn it up every time I log in. The sound is pretty good elsewhere too, and adds a lot of atmosphere.

The crafting system is easy and accessible. It's not a great deal of fun, but it's like they designed it knowing that... you can just do it as you go rather than spending hours nullified by it.

Very easy to level. Very easy to jump into it and just play for 20 minutes and quit for most things. No downtime to speak of.

This is the MMO for first timers, easily. If you haven't tried the genre, this is MMO lite that will get you started.

The system requirements are low, and it still runs great. Worth mentioning again, since it's the whole reason I wound up buying it. It runs better on my weekend work system than DaoC does.

The mail system is a great addition for swapping gear on your own characters. Also, I like that you have a good amount of them you can make and aren't limited to only 4.

Cons:

AGGRO. Holy !@#!@$ shit, they should SHOOT the guy who programmed the aggro code in World of Warcraft. It is absolutely horribly awful; you can aggro a monster from miles away for no apparent reason, his friends will come with maybe (or not), re-pops will attack you before they're even done spawning. Tanks can't hold aggro effectively in a lot of situations because of rage issues. This is almost game breakingly bad for me... thankfully, it's something that can be adjusted, but it needs to be done very, very soon... and I cannot believe no review I've seen mentions it. It is a major step backward from any other MMO I've played.

Wankerville. I've had good experiences and bad in every game, but WoW takes the cake for people I don't want to be around. I now play with all but spatial chats turned off because of the inane, moronic chatter. People who were worried about the BNet crowd playing WoW... be afraid. This will thankfully get better with time, though.

WoW just doesn't feel alive. It's got all the components to make a great game, but they don't click to me at all. It's like someone had a checklist from playing other MMO's and went down it marking things off to put in the game, and the end result feels like something I've already played for years... it does absolutely nothing outstanding to set itself apart. WoW is a great game, but it's great in the most mediocre and average way imagineable.

The death system. I know, I know, it's easy and forgiving... it's also incredibly annoying. Some tweaks could make it ok, though; #1, don't let aggressive monsters near the graveyard. #2, LET ME SEE the area where my body is! Respawn, oh shit monsters, dead again. Pay more to repair equipment, rinse repeat. I can't put my finger on why I hate it in WoW so much... maybe because it's so much easier to die than in most other MMO's. There's no really good ability to escape from a bad situation for most characters.

Not enough skills and advancement opportunites. YAY, I got Fireball 2 now instead of Fireball 1 that I've used forever! Give me some more diverse abilities, and give me more talents.

As much as I love the character models, there's not enough choices. And my characters are always appearing naked on the select screen for some reason now.

Too many quests that just send you running in opposite directions... I find myself doing a lot of running around.

The Breakdown:

Both games are good.

But. If you take the stigma of EverQuest away from EQ2, and take the name of Blizzard away from WoW, I can guarantee which one the reviews would be raving about right now.

When I get home to my decent system, there is no contest as to which one I will be turning on and playing. No contest.

EQ2 has much more depth, it feels far more alive, I can get more rewarding rewards for even small amounts of improvement on my character, my character feels more unique. EQ2 feels like the next step ahead for the genre, while WoW feels like it's doing an absolutely smashing job of standing in someone else's footsteps. I'm excited about getting home to play EQ2 after work even almost a month now after its release... and it just gets better as I get higher level. I extended my subscription plan for it, which I never even did for EQ 1. WoW I expect to enjoy like CoH... great for short periods of time, for a month or two, and then move on.

EQ2 is too much for a lot of people. It's an MMO-er's game, a gamer's game, and while it doesn't take hours on end just to enjoy like EQ1 did it does take a lot of experience with the genre to appreciate and know what to do with. WoW is supremely accessible. I'd love the game if I hadn't played other MMO's before it... it's what people who aren't fans of EQ have been waiting for, the fix for the slow leveling and the grind (which I haven't found in either game yet, thankfully).

I'd still say, if you're an MMO veteran and have a high end system EQ2 is far more bang for the buck. Sony is johnny on the spot with expansion packs to keep their games alive, if they use the same formula as EQ. A familiar group of faces in the game would help a lot.

WoW is the choice for an MMO newbie or the gamer on a schedule, especially if you have a lower end system.

Neither game is worth a 95% score RIGHT NOW. EQ2's system requirements are too high, and its broker system is asstastic and inaccessible. 4 characters per account is a rip off. WoW has some major balance issues with core game mechanics and a really limited race to class choice and character advancement scenario compared to other games.

Both of them could be 95% games in six months.

Last but not least, comparing these games is almost pointless...apples to oranges. They're of the same genre, but they're nothing alike at all. If you somehow get the chance to sit down and play both of them, it's worth it.

[Lorini]

I think it's funny how people say that the death implementation is better in WoW than EQ2, I definetly prefer EQ2's because you can still play when you are dead. So if your shard is in a place you think you'll get to later, you can leave it there and still play. Yes, you take an XP hit, but to me that's better than having to get your shard no matter what.

I've played EQ2 and basically liked it. I'm playing WoW til my shaman gets to level 15, then I'm buying a game card for whichever game I choose, and giving the other game to my teenager. We'll see.

Lorini

[Tareeq]

I think it's funny how people say that the death implementation is better in WoW than EQ2, I definetly prefer EQ2's because you can still play when you are dead. So if your shard is in a place you think you'll get to later, you can leave it there and still play. Yes, you take an XP hit, but to me that's better than having to get your shard no matter what.

You can do that in WoW as well. Just click on the big ghost in the graveyard, the one that looks like the Ghost of Christmas Past, and for a mild exp penalty (and an equipment damage penalty on top of the one you got for dying in the first place) you can pop right back into the world.

[KiloOhm]

I think it's funny how people say that the death implementation is better in WoW than EQ2, I definetly prefer EQ2's because you can still play when you are dead. So if your shard is in a place you think you'll get to later, you can leave it there and still play. Yes, you take an XP hit, but to me that's better than having to get your shard no matter what.

You can do that in WoW as well. Just click on the big ghost in the graveyard, the one that looks like the Ghost of Christmas Past, and for a mild exp penalty (and an equipment damage penalty on top of the one you got for dying in the first place) you can pop right back into the world.

Maybe its different at higher levels (I'm level 16) but I haven't had to "run" for more than 2 minutes to get my corpse (I was bound in westfall and died in stormfist). Of course if you die a lot, the die "wait time" might get annoying but this hasn't been a problem for me thus far.

Also, referencing the post about the aggro's from far away, again I haven't seen that to be the case at all. Maybe at higher levels they get a larger aggro radius but not that I've seen.

Keeping the aggro seems like it should, whoever is doing the most damage to the critter gets attacked. I have not noticed any other behavior.

[JCC]

You can do that in WoW as well. Just click on the big ghost in the graveyard, the one that looks like the Ghost of Christmas Past, and for a mild exp penalty (and an equipment damage penalty on top of the one you got for dying in the first place) you can pop right back into the world.

Actualluy. Blizzard removed the exp penalty. You only get 25% item durability penalty when you use a spirit healer.

[Austin]

Glad to see you enjoyed the review YK.

Anyway, I stress tested WoW for a couple days. That pushed me into the EQ camp. I bought EQ2 and enjoyed it quite a bit. The quests and crafting and everything seemed really exciting. However the grind/feels like a job thing set in for me.

Part of it is that I don't like a severe exp penalty. Tareeq and I would go out and try to kill pretty much everything, even if it was too high for us. I think I would die 8-12 times per outing. Be more careful? Bah. Better tactics? Maybe but with a mage/scout combo it isn't like you are really working with a tactic friendly team. Mez one, kill the other or just don't fight those things. Well, not fighting certain things wasn't an option as he's crazy.

I bought WoW and figured I'd give it another go. The lack of depth I found during the stress test isn't as deep as I thought. I don't think it is as deep as EQ2 but it isn't as shallow as I thought from my beta time. My game time is limited but I feel like I can login for 1/2 hour and finish up or dent a quest or two.

I dunno, I guess the bottom line is that I wasn't having fun in EQ2 and am having fun in WoW. /shrug we all knew that EQ2 wasn't going to score as high as WoW so that wasn't a surprise. YK didn't let us down with his rant and I damn well expected it. It's a protected right to read a YK rant when you tread on EQ2!

[The Meal]

Discussion related to this topic's subject line should be conducted here in the Overlords Meta Forum.

~Neal

[hepcat]

Discussion related to this topic's subject line should be conducted here in the Overlords Meta Forum.

~Neal

I'm not in any way, shape, or form trying to be a jerk, but I got a chuckle out of seeing that little reminder about vulgarity poised above a signature line that talks about "masturbating and eating pizza"

[The Meal]

I'm not in any way, shape, or form trying to be a jerk, but I got a chuckle out of seeing that little reminder about vulgarity poised above a signature line that talks about "masturbating and eating pizza"

This isn't the place for this conversation, but I would have no problem with discussing masturbation (using that very term) with my daughter while I'd never feel comfortable talking to her about how one of her friends was a dick (using that term). That isn't to say that I think "XX is a dick" is necessarily vulgar, but it points out the vulgar vector of the connotations, if you will.

I'd be willing to continue this angle of conversation via PM or in another thread (in the Meta Forum) if you'd like. I won't clog up this thread with this line of conversation any longer, however.

~Neal (PS. And I didn't take this as if you were trying to be a jerk, either! Just trying to head off any potential thoughts of hypocrasy here.)

[hepcat]

I was actually just more concerned with the inherent dangers of hot pizza grease and exposed genitalia, my friend.

[ChrisGwinn]

I had lunch with some ex-coworkers today, none of whom ever play MMORPGs. Lots of them are casual gamers, none of them were big fans of Warcraft 3. World of Warcraft has apparently latched its claws into a couple of them and will not go. They absolutely love it. Just thought I'd add another perspective.

[Al]

I don't really play MMORPGs at all (I played DAoC for a little while, got tired of the grind) and I'm seriously considering this one.

[Smoove_B]

I had lunch with some ex-coworkers today, none of whom ever play MMORPGs. Lots of them are casual gamers, none of them were big fans of Warcraft 3. World of Warcraft has apparently latched its claws into a couple of them and will not go. They absolutely love it. Just thought I'd add another perspective.

Yes, I've been hearing the same thing. I would put my reputation as a gamer on the line to suggest that the EQ games are geared for more of a 'hardcore" gaming crowd while the WoW game has taken pains to make it as easy to play as possible.

My comparison is Star Wars Galaxies vs City of Heroes.

Both MMP - but completely different games. I will *NEVER* play a SWG-type game again. It was like having a second job.

On the other hand. City of Heroes still keeps my interest. I can skip playing for a week then log back in like nothing ever happened. If I missed 2 days in SW:G my house was burned down, equipment was malfunctioning, harvesters were broken, trades were missed, etc....

[tals]

I certainly would not place EQ2 in hard core gaming, possibly you could play it to that extent. However you can also play it as a pick up, play for an hour put down.

I think they have managed to get the balance between the hard core gamers and those who haven't the time and inclination.

I would agree, SWG was like having a second job - terrible

Tals

[quantum]

But. If you take the stigma of EverQuest away from EQ2, and take the name of Blizzard away from WoW, I can guarantee which one the reviews would be raving about right now.

Right. That game would be World of Warcraft.

[GungHo]

Never played EQ or EQ2, and I havent played WoW...but the only Blizzard stuff Ive ever enjoyed have been the Warcraft series of games.

IMHO, Blizzard gets way too much slack and/or credit; even though I said I enjoyed the Warcraft series, WC3 I only finished for the story. The combat was flat-out boring...very much a been there done that sense of deja vu for me. And that's how I felt about Diablo, Starcraft, etc.

But whatever; if yer a fan of Blizzard and their games, knock yourself out.

[hepcat]

Jeez, can we all just admit that they're both good games and it's a good time for MMORPG players right now

[tals]

Jeez, can we all just admit that they're both good games and it's a good time for MMORPG players right now

Sanity reigns

[DiscoJason]

Jeez, can we all just admit that they're both good games and it's a good time for MMORPG players right now

I've actually said this a couple of times in this thread. So has YK. People seem to feel there can only be one winner. You just can't change human nature.

[Ronin]

Never played EQ or EQ2, and I havent played WoW...but the only Blizzard stuff Ive ever enjoyed have been the Warcraft series of games.

IMHO, Blizzard gets way too much slack and/or credit; even though I said I enjoyed the Warcraft series, WC3 I only finished for the story. The combat was flat-out boring...very much a been there done that sense of deja vu for me. And that's how I felt about Diablo, Starcraft, etc.

But whatever; if yer a fan of Blizzard and their games, knock yourself out.

Blizzard gets credit they rightly deserve. They take a game (despite the fact its not revolutionary) and polish the shit out of it until it shines. Delivering a high quality entertaining game that a lot of people like. Pretty much every game Blizzard has released in the last 10 years has been massively succesful, so I'd say they've earned all the credit they get.

[The Preacher]

Yes, the horse dead but I insist upon kicking it.

Gamespy just gave it a perfect 5 stars, as compared to EQ2's 4 out of 5. Obviously it doesn't have the granularity of a 100 pt system, but it does serve to support Kasavin's scores.

[KiloOhm]

Yes, I've been hearing the same thing. I would put my reputation as a gamer on the line to suggest that the EQ games are geared for more of a 'hardcore" gaming crowd while the WoW game has taken pains to make it as easy to play as possible.

(speaking as an old EQ1 player for 6 months and a new WoW player)

I agree except change "hardcore gamer" to "hardcore MMORPGer". I am certainly a hardcore gamer, but I am not a hardcore MMORPGer. I'm enjoying WoW as a "lite" MMORPG because I'm not into the "epic" portion of these games. I'm more interested in an enhanced Diablo2 sort of MMORPG which is what I think WoW pulled off for me.

[Eco-Logic]

Poll on EQ2 vs. WoW

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/569/569 ... ?fromint=1

LOL

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Poll on EQ2 vs. WoW

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/569/569 ... ?fromint=1

LOL

Bah, that poll means nothing. It was probably just Greg Kasavin voting 20,000 times.

[DiscoJason]

Poll on EQ2 vs. WoW

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/569/569 ... ?fromint=1

LOL

Anyone who trusts the results of an Internet poll is a sad individual, indeed.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Poll on EQ2 vs. WoW

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/569/569 ... ?fromint=1

LOL

Anyone who trusts the results of an Internet poll is a sad individual, indeed.

We should make a poll asking how many people trust polls.

[DiscoJason]

Poll on EQ2 vs. WoW

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/569/569 ... ?fromint=1

LOL

Anyone who trusts the results of an Internet poll is a sad individual, indeed.

We should make a poll asking how many people trust polls.

Yeah!!!!