[FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

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Tscott
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[FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Tscott »

I played Fallout 3 all the way through 2 times when I first got it (plus a 3rd time just to blow up Megaton) without bothering with "Games for Windows Live". Now I see how wise I was.

Now that all the DLC are out, I thought I'd finally bite the bullet, get them and play through the game again with all the addons.

So I start up Fallout3, and click on the neglected "LIVE" option on the main menu. It drops down an ugly interface that doesn't seem to react when I click on it. (I later discover that instead of clicking on the actual GUI buttons, I should be clicking on some mysterious area just BELOW the buttons. Hmmm, you'd think someone who worked for MS WINDOWS would know how to do a GUI interface!)

Anyway, I finally get it to the point where it says I need to create a LIVE account. I do that. It takes me to XBOX.com and logs me into my new XBOX Live account. WTF? I don't even own an XBOX. I search for Fallout 3 and find the DLC in this window it brought me to- but all the DLC is for the XBOX version of the game! WTF again??

I'm stumped for a few minutes, trying to find how to get to the Windows DLC from this window they brought me to. I finally say "this is ridiculous", exit, and click on Fallout 3 (still minimized on the desktop). Which then asks me for my "Live Access Key". Oh. I was supposed to know that the window they brought me to after signing up wasn't the window I was supposed to go to. I enter my access key. Problem solved.

Or so I think. Now it needs to update. Do I want to do this? Yes. It installs and then leaves me on my desktop without warning. I restart FO3- it crashes. Try again- it crashes again. Restart the computer. FO3 now starts up. I log into LIVE and it tells me I need to update again. Didn't I just do this?

It updates and it seems to take this time. Cool. I try to start LIVE. I now need ANOTHER update. Do I want to do this? Yes! (Well, actually, I may be starting to doubt myself here.) It updates. Another restart.

I start FO3 again... I log into LIVE again... I get a message "Do I want to enable automatic updates?" Yes. "This needs to be updated. Please go to microsoft.com to install the update." WHAT THE FUCK? It just asked if it should do auto updates, and it's telling me to manually update it so it can!

I click OK. This program can't proceed without the update. It exits out. I restart it. "Do I want to enable automatic updates?" Yes. "This needs to be updated. Please go to microsoft.com to install the update." This time I click on the microsoft.com link in the window (as opposed to the OK button I went with the first time).

A file downloads. I double click to install it. It takes 25 minutes to install. The screen saver came on twice while I was waiting. The progress bar went from 0 to 100% FOUR TIMES during this process. It finally finishes. I get a message that says "That's It!"

That's It? THAT'S IT???? Someone at microsoft has a deeply fucked sense of humor and I want to strangle them now... I click on the "Finish" button right below the "That's It!" message=== ERROR! Windows must be restarted before this program can finish installing. You fuckers. That wasn't it and you knew it. I restart the computer. It installed the updates part 1 of 3, part 2 of 3, part 3 of 3.

Yay. Everything working now. That was SO worth it. I'm now ready to log on and.... buy points??? This is soooo fucked. Each DLC costs 800 points- and you can only buy points in increments of 1000s or somesuch. Lucky for me I want 5 DLCs and I know math. But what if I only wanted 3 or 4 of them? I'd be screwed paying for extra points that I wasn't going to use.

God. These GfW people are so lucky that this is Fallout 3 we're dealing with, because if it was for any lesser game I would've said "Fuck this" two hours ago and never looked back.

Makes me appreciate how good Steam is.

Anyway, everything finally finished downloading while I typed this up. Wish me luck in the new areas of the wastelands. And if you know anyone who works for GfW-Live, punch them in the face for me.
Last edited by Tscott on Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Tscott »

Lovely. When I'm logged into LIVE, all my old saves are gone. When I logout, they're all back again.

For a second, I thought that all my saves were invalidated by the DLC.

Apparently LIVE changes where it looks for saves from "My Games\Fallout 3\Saves" to "My Games\Fallout 3\Saves\UserName" :doh: That's dumb.

(also, I'm getting a music stuttering problem that I never had before :( but that doesn't look to be related to LIVE...)
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Jag »

Even Bill gets frustrated with Windows:

http://gizmodo.com/5019516/classic-clip ... ft-over-xp" target="_blank
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Daehawk »

Ive always known that LIVE was MS's attempt to kill pc gaming.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by GreenGoo »

When I was fooling around with DOW2 beta I spent some time in the games for windows universe. It was the least intuitive, least professional, most obtuse "software" I've encountered in a long while. I'm not even sure what service it was supposed to provide me and no longer care.

I plan on avoiding it for a long time to come.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Blackhawk »

Proper Fallout 3 DLC installation:

1) Go to GFWL, pay for addons.

2) Go to torrent site, download non-borked version of the mods you've just paid for.

3) Play without any hassles.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Tscott »

Blackhawk wrote:Proper Fallout 3 DLC installation:
Or wait until October and buy the GOTY version of the game.

That was my first instinct, but today I thought "Why should I wait two months to rebuy a game I already have?" and "It couldn't be that much of a hassle to use GfW."

My thoughts were out apparently to get me today. I blame some X-Play awards show I watched last night for giving me the urge to have to play this NOW.

Anyway, what's done is done. Everything got installed eventually, and I was able to fix the music stutter that popped up during the months of disuse of this game. That fix was remarkably easy after everything I went through to get the DLC- if anyone else is having a music stutter problem, check out the link.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Sarkus »

Just google around. It's very easy to move all the DLC's into a different location and make them work without GfWL if you don't want to deal with it. Personally I've just learned to live with it as it's also really simple to copy a save into the correct new folder it creates and go from there. But whatever works for you.

And I won't be surprised if the rerelease this fall forces you to install into GfWL by default.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by KiloOhm »

bah me pic is gone!
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by WPD »

I can't connect to GFWL while in Dawn of War 2, but can connect using the client outside of the game just fine. I'm too lazy to go through all the steps for checking my router so I just don't use it. I just can't play MP.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Stuie »

Tscott wrote:I'm now ready to log on and.... buy points??? This is soooo fucked. Each DLC costs 800 points- and you can only buy points in increments of 1000s or somesuch. Lucky for me I want 5 DLCs and I know math. But what if I only wanted 3 or 4 of them? I'd be screwed paying for extra points that I wasn't going to use.
I buy all my live points from the zune site. They have increments of 400 and 1200 available, which made various combinations of 800 points easier to purchase.

I won't even try to defend GFWL; the whole implementation is indefensible.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by neofit »

I want through all that hassle with GFWL for FO3 and more. It's even worse when you are not in English-speaking country. GFWL forces you to DL a localized version of the add-ons, even when you have an imported UK version of FO3, and don't even warn you, you can't choose not appeal. Good luck finding their support, there is no such thing. You have to go through live.xbox.com, and have your local and the UK xbox support teams sned you back and forth with messages like "the locale in your browser is not correctly set", etc.

I finally said screw it and did like Daehawk said.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Kraegor »

I'm perhaps stuck with the OS, but I'm flushing everything else down the drain.

MS stole my money with their broken software and egregiously idiotic tech support. They disabled and closed my account while claiming that they could not find it in the DB.... (really? then why when I change password it complains that the new one is the same as the old one?) Then they refused to refund any of my "points". Outright theft. FUCK GFWL. I am done. I canceled the credit card they had on file. There are numerous gaming/entertainment options that do not require an xbox or gfwl.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Two Sheds »

Yeah, GFWL is a pain. Luckily it's not mandatory for Fallout 3.

With respect to Blackhawk, a different FO3 install order:

1. Install FO3
2. Download DLCs from GFWL
3. Move DLC files from the LIVE folder to your Fallout 3/data directory
4. Activate DLCs like they are mods
5. Download and run the GFWL Disabler (search Fallout3nexus for this)
6. Enjoy.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by theohall »

or wait for the GotY version when it shows up on Steam for a ridiculously low price.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Gryndyl »

Yeah, I went through the same level of hassle when GTAIV came saddled with the GFWLive crap. Sounds like they haven't improved on the experience in the slightest.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by coopasonic »

Gryndyl wrote:Yeah, I went through the same level of hassle when GTAIV came saddled with the GFWLive crap. Sounds like they haven't improved on the experience in the slightest.
Well a consistent experience is one of the goals. That's a win for Live!
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Tscott »

Two Sheds wrote:Yeah, GFWL is a pain. Luckily it's not mandatory for Fallout 3.

With respect to Blackhawk, a different FO3 install order:

1. Install FO3
2. Download DLCs from GFWL
3. Move DLC files from the LIVE folder to your Fallout 3/data directory
4. Activate DLCs like they are mods
5. Download and run the GFWL Disabler (search Fallout3nexus for this)
6. Enjoy.
And those DLC files were soooooooooooooo easy to find. I just had to navigate to "C:\Users\nickname\AppData\Local\Microsoft\XLive\DLC\425387d6\00000002\45gjbnkjad7732jklhakdhf7cjdhafkljh7" and there they were! :doh:

I copied all the files into the Data directory except for the five .bik files from Broken Steel- those went in the video folder. Now I'm running without logging into LIVE. Yay. I haven't run the GFWL disabler yet- had to make sure this worked first.

I've been getting more crashes than I recall from my first few playthroughs, so I'm hoping the disabler will fix that.

EDIT: Disabler has now been run. Quick test ran one of my old characters into a tough group of super mutants. I successfully killed all 4 super mutants while popping in and out of VATS (where most of my crashes were happening) and nothing crashed. More tests will be done, but I'm cautiously optimistic.
Last edited by Tscott on Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Bakhtosh »

Well, there went any desire I had to get the DLC. Theohall wins the prize. I'll wait for the Steam sale on the GOTY edition.
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Two Sheds »

Hey man, I never said they were easy to find. I applaud your perseverence. :D

Is a Steam version with DLCs something you guys are just assuming is going to happen? I haven't heard of such a thing. Still, despite the theatrics, it really is five minutes of work to get the DLCs running outside of Live, if that suits you. And quite honestly I had the same crashes with and without Live, and never had any login or any other issues when I did use it. YMMV, of course. The only reason I went the non-Live route was because of a mod that doesn't play nice with it (FOSE).
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by theohall »

Two Sheds wrote:Hey man, I never said they were easy to find. I applaud your perseverence. :D

Is a Steam version with DLCs something you guys are just assuming is going to happen? I haven't heard of such a thing. Still, despite the theatrics, it really is five minutes of work to get the DLCs running outside of Live, if that suits you. And quite honestly I had the same crashes with and without Live, and never had any login or any other issues when I did use it. YMMV, of course. The only reason I went the non-Live route was because of a mod that doesn't play nice with it (FOSE).
It's not the five minutes of moving the DLCs that is the hassle. It's everything up to that point, then the ridiculous location to which they are downloaded on top of all that hassle, essentially requiring use of the Search function to find them.

Surprised someone hasn't take the GFWLive logo and stuck a picture of it up at FAILED.

As to DLC on Steam - in the latest Oblivion offers on Steam, one of them included all official DLC.
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Tscott »

Two Sheds wrote:Hey man, I never said they were easy to find. I applaud your perseverence. :D
I wasn't blaming you. And for the record, an advanced search of my C drive for *.esm files was really how I found where the folders were. :)

I wound up updating my graphics card drivers and that seemed to help with the crashes in VATS, but then I started getting other weird crashes (entering a building, during autosaves, etc.) fairly frequently. For what it's worth I've played about an hour since disabling LIVE and haven't had a crash yet (knock on wood...).
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Two Sheds »

theohall wrote:
Two Sheds wrote:Hey man, I never said they were easy to find. I applaud your perseverence. :D

Is a Steam version with DLCs something you guys are just assuming is going to happen? I haven't heard of such a thing. Still, despite the theatrics, it really is five minutes of work to get the DLCs running outside of Live, if that suits you. And quite honestly I had the same crashes with and without Live, and never had any login or any other issues when I did use it. YMMV, of course. The only reason I went the non-Live route was because of a mod that doesn't play nice with it (FOSE).
It's not the five minutes of moving the DLCs that is the hassle. It's everything up to that point, then the ridiculous location to which they are downloaded on top of all that hassle, essentially requiring use of the Search function to find them.

Surprised someone hasn't take the GFWLive logo and stuck a picture of it up at FAILED.

As to DLC on Steam - in the latest Oblivion offers on Steam, one of them included all official DLC.
Honestly, for me and (I imagine) most users, "everything up to that point" meant Logging into GFWL, buying Microsoft Points, spending those points, and downloading the files. I'd rather not have to do those things, but it's not a big enough hassle that I'm just going to throw my hands up and say "to hell with this!" And like I said, the file-moving isn't necessarily essential.

The difference between Oblivion and Fallout 3 is that the Oblivion DLCs were purchasable from the Bethesda website, while the FO3 ones have only been available through GFWL. I don't know if there's some kind of Microsoft distribution exclusivity contract or what. I know that right now if you have Steam Fallout 3 you still have to use GFWL to get the DLCs, and I wouldn't be surprised if you still had to use it if they're eventually released as part of a package on Steam.
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by theohall »

Two Sheds wrote:
theohall wrote:
Two Sheds wrote:Hey man, I never said they were easy to find. I applaud your perseverence. :D

Is a Steam version with DLCs something you guys are just assuming is going to happen? I haven't heard of such a thing. Still, despite the theatrics, it really is five minutes of work to get the DLCs running outside of Live, if that suits you. And quite honestly I had the same crashes with and without Live, and never had any login or any other issues when I did use it. YMMV, of course. The only reason I went the non-Live route was because of a mod that doesn't play nice with it (FOSE).
It's not the five minutes of moving the DLCs that is the hassle. It's everything up to that point, then the ridiculous location to which they are downloaded on top of all that hassle, essentially requiring use of the Search function to find them.

Surprised someone hasn't take the GFWLive logo and stuck a picture of it up at FAILED.

As to DLC on Steam - in the latest Oblivion offers on Steam, one of them included all official DLC.
Honestly, for me and (I imagine) most users, "everything up to that point" meant Logging into GFWL, buying Microsoft Points, spending those points, and downloading the files. I'd rather not have to do those things, but it's not a big enough hassle that I'm just going to throw my hands up and say "to hell with this!" And like I said, the file-moving isn't necessarily essential.

The difference between Oblivion and Fallout 3 is that the Oblivion DLCs were purchasable from the Bethesda website, while the FO3 ones have only been available through GFWL. I don't know if there's some kind of Microsoft distribution exclusivity contract or what. I know that right now if you have Steam Fallout 3 you still have to use GFWL to get the DLCs, and I wouldn't be surprised if you still had to use it if they're eventually released as part of a package on Steam.
It took me 3 days just to logon to GFWL, because the idiotic website kept claiming I hadn't signed up, then wouldn't allow the username I supposedly hadn't signed up with. GFWL sucks, period. For some, it might have been as easy as it was for you. But for many, it's been nothing but a PITA. Which is why folks have actually down workarounds to get around the stupidness of GFWL. If it were as simple as it was for you for most, no one would have bothered with the workarounds.

And if Microsoft is too stupid to get with the times and sell stuff via what's easiest for users, that's their problem. But we are talking about Microsoft which has always sucked at designing software, instead of buying up what others made and licensing it.
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Two Sheds »

I'm not going to argue that Live is worthwhile, because I don't think that it is. Keep in mind, though, that Fallout 3 has sold millions of copies, and the Live Disabler on Nexus has been downloaded just over 41,000 times. And I've downloaded it twice. I'm sorry you had problems, but as with every game, the people who have problems are always the most vocal, but rarely the majority.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by WPD »

WPD wrote:I can't connect to GFWL while in Dawn of War 2, but can connect using the client outside of the game just fine. I'm too lazy to go through all the steps for checking my router so I just don't use it. I just can't play MP.
I solved my problem. I had to up my MTUs. What the hell?
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Harkonis »

I must be the only person that has had no issues with GFWL at all.

It works just like the Xbox Live dash only is far more responsive.
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Re: [FO3]Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap

Post by Grifman »

Bakhtosh wrote:Well, there went any desire I had to get the DLC. Theohall wins the prize. I'll wait for the Steam sale on the GOTY edition.
Or just wait for the disks. I bought The Pitt and Operation Anchorage from a brick and mortar store a few weeks ago, and plan on buying Broken Steel and Point Lookout on disk when they come out next week. I'll be missing Mothership Zeta, but no big loss there. I can live without that one.
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Bakhtosh »

Grifman wrote:from a brick and mortar store
What is this brick and mortar of which you speak? Do you have a link?
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by godhugh »

Harkonis wrote:I must be the only person that has had no issues with GFWL at all.

It works just like the Xbox Live dash only is far more responsive.
Nah, worked fine for me in DoW2. I actually enjoy it since I can earn achievements on my PC.
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Bakhtosh »

Two Sheds wrote: Is a Steam version with DLCs something you guys are just assuming is going to happen? I haven't heard of such a thing.
I'm sure FO3 will eventually be released in an "Ultimate", "Gold", or "GOTY" edition with all of the DLC as a standalone available in-box and as a Steam download.

If they don't, then they won't be getting my business. I'm not interested in buying points to download content. That type of distribution scheme is crap. Let me add stuff to my cart and pay with a CC. It's such an obvious ploy to get you to spend more money than you ordinarily would on crap you don't really want (or didn't know you wanted).
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Two Sheds »

Bakhtosh wrote:
Two Sheds wrote: Is a Steam version with DLCs something you guys are just assuming is going to happen? I haven't heard of such a thing.
I'm sure FO3 will eventually be released in an "Ultimate", "Gold", or "GOTY" edition with all of the DLC as a standalone available in-box and as a Steam download.

If they don't, then they won't be getting my business. I'm not interested in buying points to download content. That type of distribution scheme is crap. Let me add stuff to my cart and pay with a CC. It's such an obvious ploy to get you to spend more money than you ordinarily would on crap you don't really want (or didn't know you wanted).
Well yeah, I'm sure that will happen, too. They've already released a couple of the DLCs on discs, and more are coming out shortly. You still have to use GFWL to play them though, as far as I know. Or do the file-copying workaround. I thought that was the part you had a problem with.
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Tscott
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Re: [FO3] Games for Windows LIVE is Crappity Crap Crap Crap Crap

Post by Tscott »

I considered getting the addon discs, but the addon I really wanted most of all was Broken Steel because of the level cap and the changes to the ending of the main quest - and that pack isn't out yet. Plus, I didn't want to miss out on Mothership Zeta even if it is a very linear shooter from what I've seen so far of it. I started it, but realized I had too much crap in my inventory and didn't want to have to litter stuff all over the ship and loose it.

I wound up reloading an earlier save and doing some other stuff first- including Operation: Anchorage which I just finished tonight. Unfortunately, there's a bug that completes a quest (You've Got To Shoot Them In the Head) if you pick up the power armor you get at the end. So I've let that behind, as I've never played out that quest before and want to try it in this playthrough, so hopefully this armor will stick around until I come back for it.

Speaking of bugs, my crashes are fewer now that I've disabled LIVE. The addons are seamlessly working in the game so far, except for one announcement I heard on GNR from Three Dog which seemed to be from Broken Steel- something about 2 weeks since Project Purity was completed. Oops. I was level 8 at the time I heard it and nowhere close to completing the main quest.
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