Xenonauts - spiritual successor to X-Com, indie developed

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:50 pm

Turtle wrote:What questions were those specifically?

I'd love impressions. What were your expectations and how are they being met. What's done right. What's in there. What's not. the pluses and minuses, etc... How playable is the alpha?

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:49 am

My expectations, for better or worse, is for a mostly straight X-Com clone with better graphics and a few usability improvements.

Right now, it kind of meets that, but just barely. It has a long way to go before even all the basic usability matches the latest X-Com Apocalypse.

I still hate the whole blacked out map in this age of google maps, camera phones, online blueprints, and more. I would have loved a crappy, fake flat google map overlay onto blacked out areas that fills in with actual 3D buildings as you actually explore them.

So, if you really want a clone, and a little bit extra. Stay tuned for a bit, but don't pick up the beta quite yet. You're actually better going back to X-Com.

Citizen · Post by **Citizen** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:12 pm

You mean a blacked out map as in a 'Fog of War' effect?

Thanks for the tip. I'll hold off a bit longer.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:17 pm

Turtle wrote:I would have loved a crappy, fake flat google map overlay onto blacked out areas that fills in with actual 3D buildings as you actually explore them.

I like it. Get right on that.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:22 am

I already pitched this to the developer, I even explained a good way to actually implement it based on my experience development and engines.

Not too difficult. Just when you have your map generator make a map, every tile it places has the fog of war overlay version of it that's flat. Admittedly, it won't be easy to create an entire new tileset for almost every tile in the game, you can process the already made full detail tiles as a base for the map, heck, they're already doing that for the planned mini-map, and these fog of war map tiles have no height elements so that's less work right there.

He flat out said he's not interested in it, wanting to stay with the completely black fog of war just like X-Com. He justifies it a little by saying the black fog added to the tension. It did, but added to it in a very artificial and arbitrary way. I think another kind of dread may be seeing a giant urban map that you know you have to clear out building by building, or seeing a sprawling dreadnought crash. It's the biggest example of how they're using the desire to remake as a crutch, rather than making a proper spiritual successor.

Other things, like scientist and factory worker management is straight from X-Com as well, no creativity there. Some of the later x-com clones did some interesting, or at least more fun and streamlined things with that aspect.

Admittedly, the game is still quite early in development, and there have been some changes to the formula, and planned changes.

There's a little air combat mini-game which has to directing aircraft around in a top down dog fight. So far not very interesting and I see it getting old quick. I'd rather they spent more time perfecting ground combat features.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:23 am

Turtle wrote:Admittedly, it won't be easy to create an entire new tileset for almost every tile in the game, you can process the already made full detail tiles as a base for the map, heck, they're already doing that for the planned mini-map, and these fog of war map tiles have no height elements so that's less work right there.

I'd think it wouldn't too difficult at all but what do I know from stupid?

It's the biggest example of how they're using the desire to remake as a crutch, rather than making a proper spiritual successor.

I bet you're right. That doesn't mean I won't like the game but it is discouraging.

Other things, like scientist and factory worker management is straight from X-Com as well, no creativity there. Some of the later x-com clones did some interesting, or at least more fun and streamlined things with that aspect.

I don't have problems with that unless there is proposal from something better (like your proposal for a hollow shell overlay on the fog of war)

There's a little air combat mini-game which has to directing aircraft around in a top down dog fight. So far not very interesting and I see it getting old quick. I'd rather they spent more time perfecting ground combat features.

Like Apocalypse?

Buatha · Post by **Buatha** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:34 am

Well, I can understand their desire not to break the mold this time since it seems every other game that has done so seems to tank (UFO: AfterX). However, I did like the real-time pausing combat where everything happened at once.

I always like UFO: Extraterrestrials after it was modded. It didn't have random maps, but it had a bunch of them.

ColdSteel · Post by **ColdSteel** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:13 pm

The trouble with innovation on the original gameplay is that so far it hasn't worked woth a damn for any of the games that have tried it. None of them have measured up to the original. I've seen post after post on game forums like these saying 'why can't someone just take the original gameplay and improve the graphics and UI and leave the rest of it alone? I'd buy that'. So, I think that's just what they are trying to do and I applaud them for it.

The further that they get away for the oginal game, the bigger the risk they're taking that it'll crash and burn with the fans of the game. Since the poor guy has quit his job and invested his life savings in this game, it's boom or bust for him now. I'm hoping he can pull it off and that when I play the game I'll say to myself, "now THIS is X-Com".

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:37 pm

There are very few changes I'd make to X-Com, gameplay-wise. Off the top of my head:

1) The ability to strafe around a corner.

2) More differentiation in the guns. Sniper rifles versus machine guns, for example.

3) Better gun accuracy, worse grenade accuracy. (Seriously, my guy can land a grenade at an aliens feet every time but can't hit him with 9 shots?)

4) Some sort of scope or binoculars that allows for longer range viewing.

That's about it for what I can think of for now...

Archinerd · Post by **Archinerd** » Wed May 09, 2012 2:16 pm

Now with more kickstarter.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/69341191/xenonauts" target="_blank

Sabin Stargem · Post by **Sabin Stargem** » Wed May 09, 2012 5:55 pm

Went ahead and picked up the $20 package. I am really looking forward to when Xenonauts, Enemy Unknown, and Shadows over Earth compete against each other.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Wed May 09, 2012 6:17 pm

I had already pre-ordered this, but the kickstarter page doesn't reflect that. Hopefully it's just a delay

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Thu May 10, 2012 12:57 am

IceBear wrote:I had already pre-ordered this, but the kickstarter page doesn't reflect that. Hopefully it's just a delay

It won't. They have no ability to add phantom pledges to their kickstarter page.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Thu May 10, 2012 5:22 am

OK.. Just wasn't sure that if they had my email address if they would be able to add it to the pledge. Forgot they don't a actually control the kickstarter page. Thanks

JonathanStrange · Post by **JonathanStrange** » Thu May 10, 2012 11:21 am

Contribute enough and the creators will include your name in the roster of troop recruits. Just FYI.

xwraith · Post by **xwraith** » Mon May 27, 2013 3:42 pm

I check up on this project every so often, and it seems that they will have their early-access beta up on Steam by the end of this month.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Fri May 31, 2013 5:34 pm

It's up. $19.99 with immediate beta access.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Fri May 31, 2013 6:19 pm

Got my Steam key from Desura (I had originally bought into the game there)

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Fri May 31, 2013 7:25 pm

Any impressions of the current version?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri May 31, 2013 7:31 pm

Yeah, I'm impressed I haven't bought the damn thing yet. I bought everything else this week.

ioticus · Post by **ioticus** » Fri May 31, 2013 7:32 pm

I'm hoping this is a true successor to the original X-COM, because the Firaxis version was a major disappointment to me.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Fri May 31, 2013 7:46 pm

Earth demands impressions! How is it?

Thoughts on AI, map/mission variety, and that old X-Com feel are especially welcome.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Fri May 31, 2013 8:57 pm

Just got my steam key. Note to others, you get it from the Desura website, not the PC client.

It's downloading now, I'll let you guys know how it is later.

Update: Now with a bit of play time, the game is in a playable state, but it's a bit bland. Also, I think it tries too hard to ape the original, without acknowledging the many advancements in game design that have come since the original X-COM, many of which would not deter from the original's feel.

For example, there is no cover system. There was a rudimentary cover system at some point during the beta, but no longer. As anyone who has played even a slightly realistic modern game in the past decade, I was cringing every moment one of my men had to stand out of cover, or couldn't peek around a corner.

Same goes for a little battlefield reconnaissance. What idiot lands their transport full of soldiers in the middle of a warzone? Can't soldiers just look out the window to see the immediate area around the LZ? What's with the black covering the map when we live in an age of basic google maps.

Stuff like TUs could be streamlined a whole lot more. They don't have a "reserve TUs for kneeling" button, and overall,

The air combat system is a joke, pointless busywork of a mini-game that should not have been added. It boils down to clicking the dodge button or after burner buttons.

All that said, if you're looking for something that's not much more than an X-COM port with higher res graphics and some pointless additions, this is for you. I just feel like the world has moved on, as the latest XCOM has shown. There's such a thing as being too beholden to the older thing.

JonathanStrange · Post by **JonathanStrange** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:41 am

So we're still landing in the midst of combat in an aircraft without windows? Classic! No cover system? Watch out! Send out the new guy first!

Please, please ... did the "change nothing, don't innovate" design view win out entirely?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:31 am

Thanks for the impressions! From the screenshots, that's what I feared.

This might put an end to the "Just give me original X-Com with better graphics" cult.

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:09 pm

I've played two missions.

The Good

It feels a lot like the original X-Com. Your units properly suck early on, but the game gives an excellent after action report that says what upgrades they got. I can easily see growing attached to a guy.

I also saw some really cool moments where a military guy was suppressing an alien on the battlefield while my units flanked it. That was unexpected and neat.

Cover does seem to work, I had a near impossible time hitting an alien behind a rock. Also, your units can totally hit each other if you aren't thinking your shots through.

The Bad

The game is clearly unfinished. It crashed when I killed the final alien on the second mission. Also, the inventory system is a bit wonky while in a mission, though I'm not sure how badly that will affect the game. Also, as Turtle notes, it does ape original X-Com extensively. I like this, but we'll see if my impressions stay the same over time.

The Ugly

The Art style. It's just a bit off. Mostly on human faces, the artwork of, say, the MIG is fantastic.

Archinerd · Post by **Archinerd** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:23 pm

ChrisGrenard wrote: The Ugly

The Art style. It's just a bit off. Mostly on human faces, the artwork of, say, the MIG is fantastic.

Really? I thought the art looked pretty good in all the screenshots I've seen. It's kind of a retro cell shaded look last I checked.

Citizen · Post by **Citizen** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:27 pm

Well,

Turtle wrote: there is no cover system.

Actually, there is - and it seems to work fairly well in the latest version.

Turtle wrote:What's with the black covering the map when we live in an age of basic google maps.

We may live in the age of google maps, but the game is set in the 1970's. I agree that the transports should have windows, though.

Turtle wrote:Stuff like TUs could be streamlined a whole lot more. They don't have a "reserve TUs for kneeling" button, and overall

Sorry, but I must say - BETA VERSION.

Turtle wrote:The air combat system is a joke, pointless busywork of a mini-game that should not have been added. It boils down to clicking the dodge button or after burner buttons.

I've found that while it is sometimes a simple thing, it also adds choices, and consequences - Allowing you to destory or just shootdown an alien craft. You also have the choice to remain in the fight when you fighters are BINGO fuel. Would I sacrafice a figher and pilot for a light scout? No way, Jose, but for a heavier alien ship, with lots of tech for me to harvest and prevent a likely terror mission from occuring? Yes. My pilots knew the risk when they signed up.

Turtle wrote:I just feel like the world has moved on, as the latest XCOM has shown.

I found XCOM Enemy Unknown to be shallow.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:50 pm

Citizen wrote:
Turtle wrote:I just feel like the world has moved on, as the latest XCOM has shown.
I found XCOM Enemy Unknown to be shallow.

The key for me is replayability. XCOM is a slick and fun game but I replayed it once and won't do it again without major new content. How is Xenonauts on randomization, scripting, etc? Does it build maps on the fly or are they all prerendered?

ChrisGrenard · Post by **ChrisGrenard** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:58 am

Kraken wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Turtle wrote:I just feel like the world has moved on, as the latest XCOM has shown.
I found XCOM Enemy Unknown to be shallow.
The key for me is replayability. XCOM is a slick and fun game but I replayed it once and won't do it again without major new content. How is Xenonauts on randomization, scripting, etc? Does it build maps on the fly or are they all prerendered?

An excellent question I don't know the answer to. I believe it is randomized tile sets built together, just like the original.

I do have to say, I'm one of the people who really, really want just updated X-Com. I'm not quite sure why there'd be a backlash against that, particularly since this is an indie game.

ioticus · Post by **ioticus** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:11 am

I'm not sure why there'd be a backlash either. You got your dumbed down (yes, dumbed down *really* applies in this case) XCOM with limited replayabilty, now I want the real deal.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:46 am

Because I've played enough of the original X-COM, how about they exercise some actual design ability and improve the game where it needed it. To me, it's madness to keep doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.

Don't care what people thought about XCOM 2012, that was a boardgame style game and a good addition to the series overall. But the original did need a lot of things altered. Doesn't matter if the 2012 didn't do it to your liking, but there are some good elements there that could influence a new design, while keeping the good things about X-COM.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:39 am

I absolutely adored the original X-Com. It was the first game that kept me up until dawn.

I guess we all get spoiled with advances in game design.

Turtle · Post by **Turtle** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:17 am

I don't think it's being spoiled. I think it's that we have advanced past.

Rose colored glasses here, but the best things about the original X-COM including a lot of that micro management can still be made while also making use of the latest advancements in game design, UI, and more.

I loved the original X-COM, heck, I loved all the X-COMs and played them all to death, even Apocalypse, which was the first one ever to make me consider that anything other than turn based can still be a good game.

But looking back without the rose colored glasses, I see all sorts of stuff that are really just as banal to me as crappy loot systems being put into games.

To see such potential in Xenonauts, and to see it wasted on just copying the same thing exactly to a fault irks me like no other game has ever.

JonathanStrange · Post by **JonathanStrange** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:54 am

From the Steam description:

The game has nearly 50 maps in it already, but they can get repetitive. We therefore will be adding a lot more.

I loved the original XCOM in its day - but I was 10-years-old then and thought it the ultimate in tactical training. I think that's not true any longer.

I'll probably get Xenonauts regardless; its price is low enough and the nostalgia value high. AND, and, I'll probably like it. And, as often happens with games that I like, I'll likely wish it had incorporated more tweaks and improvements (like windows in the Combat Transport, for one) that other gamers long ago suggested.

In that sense, I do share, I think, much of Turtle's feelings about not building more upon the original.

Retro gaming aside, I love the retro posts about "dumbing down" games, "just give us better graphics," etc. Never change, guys, never change.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:26 pm

I don’t disagree with making improvements but I think the problem comes from where do you draw the line? For some people the Firaxis game was a vast improvement over the original. Others say it was an oversimplification. When you change anything you risk alienating the hardcore audience that wanted your game in the first place. Basically the flaw as a feature mentality.

Buatha · Post by **Buatha** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:12 pm

I seem to be in the minority, but I really liked the real-time system in UFO: Aftermath. I liked being able to issue my orders to everyone and see them carried out. If they didn't work out, I could pause and switch them to something else.

I also disagree with the fog of war where I'd rather it be line of sight. Even in the 70s, I'm sure the military could get a hold of plans for the city/area.

Finally, I don't really understand how no one seems to be able to pull of random maps, yet they were able to do this in the 90s. This is a tile-based game, right? I can understand 3-D getting a bit weird, but 2D isometric tiles?

JonathanStrange · Post by **JonathanStrange** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:25 pm

How many hardcore XCOM fans are there? Do you stop being a hardcore XCOM fan if you don't mind changes? Do "change little, if anything" posters represent a vast number of XCOM gamers - or just an outspoken and tiny fraction of them?

I have a feeling that most potential Xenonaut gamers aren't going to be judging the game on its fidelity to a 20-year-old XCOM they never played - or if they have, they find quaintly outdated - but on whether it compares well to other games they're playing lately.

It's hard to be nostalgic when you can't remember anything.

Buatha · Post by **Buatha** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:54 pm

Frankly, I don't care if it doesn't change too much or a lot as long as it's still a fun game to play. I've enjoyed the new X-Com even if some consider it simplified. I'm still on the first play-through of that game, so I can't say if it will have the same legs as the first one, but I don't really get much time to play games multiple times (new game+) since there are so many more games to play now.

JonathanStrange · Post by **JonathanStrange** » Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:14 pm

Buatha wrote:I seem to be in the minority, but I really liked the real-time system in UFO: Aftermath. I liked being able to issue my orders to everyone and see them carried out. If they didn't work out, I could pause and switch them to something else.

I enjoyed UFO Aftermath quite a bit; I liked the gritty nature of combat and the plethora of weapons the modders added. It had a different tone and style of tactical gaming and was a refreshing change of pace.