OFFICIAL OO STARCRAFT II RELEASE THREAD OMG

[stessier]

So I got Phoenix'd today.

4 phoenix arrived in my base at 7:50. I had scouted the base and up the ramp, but never saw the starport or double gas before I was kicked out. I'm not sure how to defend against that short of going blind mutas as fast as I possibly can.

Any suggestions?

[Little Raven]

Oh boy. Get used to this....you're going to start to see it a lot with the new patch.

Mutas are a terrible idea. Phoenixes hard-counter mutas. What you need are a couple of spore crawlers, an extra queen, and (eventually) hydras.

With the new fast phoenix, Protoss can basically reverse the old game of muta-ling. By getting out some phoenix, protoss gain complete map control, and shut down the Zerg air game until the very, very late game. So you're basically going to have to play Roach-Hydra-Corrupter, while making sure that the harass doesn't kill you. Just like muta-ling, but in reverse. Even more than Mutas, Phoenixes are not much good in a straight-out fight. But you have absolutely no way of forcing that fight until you're ready to level their base. Eventually, if the harass doesn't set you back too much, you can out-macro your opponent and just go kill him. But you have to make sure to protect your overlords, your queens, and your drones while doing it, which won't be easy.

You'll know it's coming even if you can't see the Stargates because you'll be constantly scouting the enemy force at his ramp with your little 'ling force. If you don't see lots of stalkers/sentinels, then his gas is going somewhere else....that's the tip off to watch the skies.

[stessier]

Oh boy. Get used to this....you're going to start to see it a lot with the new patch.

Mutas are a terrible idea. Phoenixes hard-counter mutas. What you need are a couple of spore crawlers, an extra queen, and (eventually) hydras.

Good to know. I've never seen a Phoenix used before, so you just saved me a bunch of learning.

You'll know it's coming even if you can't see the Stargates because you'll be constantly scouting the enemy force at his ramp with your little 'ling force. If you don't see lots of stalkers/sentinels, then his gas is going somewhere else....that's the tip off to watch the skies.

I watched the replay a few more times and thought that might be my clue. He only had like 3 zealots and 4 Phoenixes. Good to have confirmation that is the tip off.

Also, we're going to need to group the Ovie somewhere close but out of the way. Can't have them over everything else or I'll never be able to select what I want. It's going to be a major pain.

[Koz]

You don't need to crank a lot of hydras unless you're planning to use them in large numbers. A handful of them is usually a good enough deterrent.

A strat I've seen on the pro circuits recently is phoenix harass into colossus (to counter hydras), so keep an eye out for that.

[WarPanda]

Personally if it were me, I would make a ton of zerglings and rush his base. The toss just spent 600 minerals and 400 gas to get 4 Phoenix. He might....might have one sentry. I would swarm his mineral line. Scout him and attack.

Other then that, it take 4 Phoenix to kill a Queen in one lift. He spore crawlers....you know the ones that shoot air. You only need one close to your mineral line. Do not over react too much.

[Little Raven]

Zergling rush is very unlikely to be effective unless the guy completely sucks. He'll be spending all his gas on phoenix, but he'll have plenty of minerals for zealots/cannons. Unless he's REALLY careless with his building placement, I doubt a Zerg rush is going to succeed.

Just limit the damage from the harass, macro macro macro, then push out with a big force and stomp him.

[stessier]

Zergling rush is very unlikely to be effective unless the guy completely sucks. He'll be spending all his gas on phoenix, but he'll have plenty of minerals for zealots/cannons. Unless he's REALLY careless with his building placement, I doubt a Zerg rush is going to succeed.

Just limit the damage from the harass, macro macro macro, then push out with a big force and stomp him.

It's been a long time since you've been in Bronze, hasn't it?

Faced quick phoenix again today. This time I knew what it meant when I scouted with the lings and only saw 2 zealots standing around. I almost - almost - took out one Gate on my initial probe, but one of the zealots moved out of position and I ran for the mineral line instead. Didn't realize how close the Gate was to going down until the replay (1 red box left).

At that point, I bunkered down with a bunch of Spores. Guy didn't seem to take a hint. He managed to kill one queen (I had FEd) and about half a dozen drones, but that was it. Then he went VRs. That wasn't a winning strategy. After I took out 3 of those, I just sent a wave of lings at him and it was GG shortly there after. Took about 20 minutes, but that's because I am way too cautious. I'm working on it though.

[stessier]

I stink. 7 game losing streak. I can't beat toss to save my life. Zerg is a 33% proposition. I'm about 50/50 versus Terran. This is extremely annoying.

[Little Raven]

I stink. 7 game losing streak.

Losing streaks suck. I've had some epic ones myself. The nice thing is every now and then a winning one comes along.

Anyway, post some replays! Maybe we can help.

[WarPanda]

Yeah I went through a 9 game losing streak. I stopped playing ladder and started looking at replays (mostly my own), I started trying out different openers and tried to add to my tool box of openers and refine the little things. Not sure what race your playing. Looking at your replays will help.

I am currently on an 8 game winning streak and nearly back to 500. Its slow going but I am clawing my back up to a winning record. Stay in there man.

SC2 may have us by the balls....but its a gentle grip.

[stessier]

I'm still playing Zerg. I'm up to 22 wins! I was originally going to go Random when I hit 25, but I still feel I don't have a grasp of this, so I'm thinking of going to 50.

I'll try to get some replays up this week. I always go back and watch them and usually can find my One Big Mistake, but with Toss, I'm kinda at a loss. If I get the tech to fight off the Phoenixes, then a mass of Stalkers arrives and wipes me out. If I try to put on any pressure, then the Phoenixes arrive and wipe out the Ovies. Seems like a no win battle.

The one thing I haven't used is the Corrupters special power. I always forget about it. I was thinking in the shower that it might be a big help.

So what do you think of getting roaches while waiting for the Spire to pop. Get a few Corrupters, then fight off the Phoenixes, turn around and corrupt the Stalkers while my Roaches focus down the Sentries before turning on the Stalkers. Throw in a few lings for good measure. Possibly work?

Since my 7 games losing streak, I'm 12-6 (which amazingly is almost 50/50 when taken in whole - it's like there is a plan or something!) but 2 of those were placement (which you get a surprising amount of points for winning - 44!), 2 were rush (SCV and proxy pylon/warp gatex2), and 1 was a gold who had 4 wins and 11 losses (don't know what was up with that - beat him pretty easily). So it's not like I'm winning against the really competent players.

Oh, and for matches against Z & T, I've started mixing in blings. It has made a surprising amount of difference. Who knew?

[Little Raven]

I'll try to get some replays up this week. I always go back and watch them and usually can find my One Big Mistake, but with Toss, I'm kinda at a loss. If I get the tech to fight off the Phoenixes, then a mass of Stalkers arrives and wipes me out. If I try to put on any pressure, then the Phoenixes arrive and wipe out the Ovies. Seems like a no win battle.

Something is off here. Hydralisks rape both Stalkers and Phoenixes. It takes Collussi to rape Hydras, and if he's going mass Phoenix he shouldn't have the gas for those.

My guess is that the harass is proving effective enough that he's able to significantly out-macro you. The cure here isn't really better micro, but better macro. You need more stuffs. And depending on the map, you may not need a spire at all. Roaches to hold the line while you tech to hydras, then big roach-hydra push for the kill.

It worked on Panda, anyway.

[stessier]

25 wins!! I am now a....Roach.



I also signed up for sc2replays and found where the replays are on my computer. I save three from this morning - 2 wins and 1 loss. Watching them with the intent of uploading is embarrassing though. I am really, really bad...although better than the last 2 guys I beat.

Tonight I'll try and upload them and get the links in here tomorrow.

I've been playing around with the 11Overpool build from team liquid. I still haven't pulled it off as directed, but the early pool does make me feel a lot safer. In Bronze I think the effect of the early pool isn't nearly as dramatic simply because we are so bad at scouting that no one says "Wow -early pool!" since they don't get there until like 20 food anyway. I think I am 2 & 2 with it though, which is no worse than 15 hatch/14 pool/13 gas. And I also beat a protoss today! True, he inexplicably didn't really build very many units and very, very few probes (even though he was on 3 bases at one point one of which was gold) and he lost track of his fleet of Phoenixes so that my horde of Hydra chewed threw them without them ever moving, but a win is a win!

[stessier]

I'll try to get some replays up this week. I always go back and watch them and usually can find my One Big Mistake, but with Toss, I'm kinda at a loss. If I get the tech to fight off the Phoenixes, then a mass of Stalkers arrives and wipes me out. If I try to put on any pressure, then the Phoenixes arrive and wipe out the Ovies. Seems like a no win battle.

Something is off here. Hydralisks rape both Stalkers and Phoenixes. It takes Collussi to rape Hydras, and if he's going mass Phoenix he shouldn't have the gas for those.

Um - I never tried using Hydras to fend off the Phoenixes - always went Spore/Corrupter.

Thanks!

[Grey Fox]

Going phoenix to trigger Hydras and then going collossi is a pretty solid strat.

For that reason, going corruptors rather than Hydras can probably be a very good idea. Get roaches to back them up on the ground.

[stessier]

I finally uploaded some replays! If anyone would like to look and comment, I'd be thrilled! Just remember - not so great skills here, so if you could distill all my ineptness to 3 things I need to work on/remember, that would be swell.

A note about my file notation:

(24) L-Zerg-11Overpool-B2

(24) - Number of wins I have as race at end of match
L - Result of match
Zerg - Opponent's race
11Overpool - My intended opening (whether or not I actually pull it off is usually a toss up)
B - Opponent's league
2 - Opponent's rank

(24) L-Zerg-11Overpool-B2
Match on metalopolis (~32min). Sorry, can't remember anything about this one at the moment.

(24) W-Toss-11Overpool-B29
Match on Lost Temple (~37min). This is the one I mentioned previously where my opponent didn't see the need to make many probes or, for that matter, units. I had already read LittleRaven's comments about using Hydra to take on VR/Phoenixes, so I used that to good effect here.

(25) W - Zerg - 11Overpool - B3
Match on Scrap Station (~39 min). My opponent went Muta and refused to turn back from it. I held off the initial push pretty well (imo), but was slow to establish myself. I think poor scouting also hurt me here. Also, near the end, I send my Hydra after his southern base and they take the short cut rather than go south to my base, then over. I think that hurt because I could have caught his mutas out of position and taken out the flock (I think).

(30) W - Toss - 11Overpool - B3
Match on Lost Temple (40 min even). This was my last one this morning. I feel good about this one. I felt in control from the beginning and believe I had a pretty good idea what he was doing. My scouting was still poor as I completely forgot about it for a while, but I thought I did decent with my creep spread. I also really enjoyed the power of the Swarm as I was able to send wave after wave at him. I'm guessing I should have started the waves sooner, as floating 6000 min and 3000 gas is a no-no, but man, once it started it was fun!

I'll try an upload some more losses for tomorrow (didn't know I was only saving the wins. ).

[stessier]

@$(*$ *#&%& @)(*#$% &% #)*( !!!!

I played against 2 Silver Terrans this morning. I uploaded, but haven't watched the replays yet. The first one I sure felt like I had him, but I suspect he had the gold expansion before my big attack. I know I didn't play well enough to win, but it sure felt that I at least had a shot and it was kind of a bummer to lose.

1. (33) L-Terran-11Overpool-S2 Bunker Rush
2. (33) L-Terran-11Overpool - S7 Jerk

The second one was against someone who started with F#%$ Zerg. So yeah, wanted to beat him. I have no idea how to counter Thors though. Should I have pushed earlier? I knew he was only on one base. I realize making that last load of lings that rallied right to their deaths was a panic move and not smart. Like I said, I just panicked. Very, very frustrating losing that one.

Otherwise I did pretty well. Won against the three Cheese starts and 2 or 3 other standard openings. Overall a pretty good morning - just mad about losing that first silver game.

Oh - and a big Thank You should go out to Day[9]! I was watching Daily 226 last night and Diamaga (I think?) was on the north position of Xel'nagra and sent his first Ovie to the reeds next to his natural. Day[9] commented that was smart as if he saw a proxy he could react. I had never known what to do with that Ovie and wouldn't you know, one of my games I spawned in the north position and remembered to send my Ovie over there. Wouldn't you know - 2 Gate proxy! Sent over 4 workers to kill the probe, then take down the pylon. As it came down, I got 4 lings from my 11Overpool that I sent straight for his mineral line and started on 4 more. Just then, another probe arrived and threw down 3 more pylons. He got out 2 Zealots, but I had taken out all his probes and had 4 lings working on his Nexus. I think it was over in 5:23.

I might have survived without that early knowledge, but it was a much faster win with it!

[Little Raven]

Thors...depends on how many.

The usual strategy for Terran against Zerg is MMM ball + tanks, and to counter that you'll need Ling Muta. Lots of times they'll throw a Thor or two in there to help with Mutas...it doesn't really change what you have to do other than making sure you magic box with the Mutas.

But sometimes they'll go heavy Thor, often times with Hellions and Marines. At this point, Muta Ling becomes a lot less effective. You need 'lings and roaches. Not too many lings...just enough to soak up some Thor shots while the Roaches close. Now the important part...micro the Roaches to individually pick off Thors. Those are your first target.

[Matrix]

Man, just started playing in it. And boy, i am getting punched around. Playing zerg. Slowly i am getting better, i am just executing it too slow, keep ending up with too much resources. Forgot about this kind of macro. Havent done it in a while.

[Little Raven]

Matrix, consider joining up with us. We assemble every night around 9 pm central time, and play for an hour or two. Join the TeamSpeak server if you have a headset, and come conquer the internet with us!

LittleRaven, 273. Friend me up.

[stessier]

I have begun using Random! And what a misnomer - first 4 games - all Terran.

I've completely forgotten what I'm supposed to do with them too. At least the matchups are no longer boring as I struggle to get some type of coherent army together.

I've been seeing many more Silvers and Golds in the matchups too. I still get trounced by Gold (when they play), but I've beaten better than half of the Silvers I've faced in the last week. I think that might bode well for my future rankings.

[stessier]

If Random is really random, then I have a long string of Zerg coming at some point. ~15 games, 1 Zerg and only 3 Toss.

[Matrix]

lets talk about Mind set in SC2, whats your base idea? whats your goal when you starting a game? do you have build in mind every time? or do you wait for opponent to make a move? I watched few videos of day 9 and he is solid about frame work. (if a bit long winded). What do you do?

[Little Raven]

I'm a zerg, so my base ideas are quite limited. Sure, I'm ultimately going to be wanting to spread creep everywhere, but what I can do with building placement is rather limited. (and I don't get that many buildings, anyway)

My first few thoughts are generally something like:

• How soon am I getting an expansion?
• What's my initial unit composition going to look like?

Answers are going to depend on the map, and the opponents race. And whether it's a 1v1 or a team game. Protoss generally call for quick roaches. Terrans generally require fast lings, and maybe banelings. Zerg....it's a toss up, really. If it's a team game, then it's all about what your buddies are building. If my teammate is going for Zealots, then Zerglings are probably not the best choice.

The beauty of Zerg is quick tech-shifts, so where I go from there generally depends on what I see from my opponent.

[stessier]

I'm doing Random now, so when I start as

Terran - I remind myself to abuse drops. If going against Z, I wall off. Against T & P I build everything close to the CC and put a bunker near the ramp. I remind myself to be aggressive and harass. If I feel uncomfortable, I think I'm doing it right (my natural tendency is to Turtle).

Protoss - I remind myself to upgrade. I try light harass to buy myself time to get the stronger stuff. Also remind myself to Chrono. Against Z I usually create a very narrow choke. For T & P, I spread stuff out and try to cover the area with pylons so I have good vision.

Zerg - I really like the 11Overpool start. Against Z, I don't expand until I have pushed back the initial attack (and I'm always on the receiving end of that one - feel far more comfortable in defense). Against T&P, as long as I'm on the bigger maps, I expand like that strat requires at 18. Against P, I remind myself to drop an Evo as soon as possible because of all the Phoenix harass at my level. I also drop my pool and warren to block off the back of my mineral line as there is an insidious Toss cannon rush that goes back there that many say can only be beat by not letting it happen. Against T - I'm just not that good. I usually try to pop roaches when I see the first marines show up. I'm less than 50% win against them, though and stink at using Banelings.

[stessier]

WOO-HOO!!





Thanks to everyone who helped me get this far! Little Raven especially.

Here's the match that got me promoted. A Gold who went DT on me. It was pretty intense on this side of the keyboard.

I went from a ~2380 Bronze Rank 2 (really was trying to get Rank 1 at 2408) to a ~2150 Rank 6 Silver. Very, very satisfying.


Now then - what does it take to get to Gold?!?



Edit to add some stats so I can compare if/when I get promoted again:

Bronze League - Division Observer Oscar

League Games - 513 games

• 1v1 - 192/356
  
  • Terran - 110 wins
  • Zerg - 54 wins
  • Protoss - 28 wins
  • Random - 12 wins
• Teams - 77/157
  
  • Terran - 75 wins
  • Zerg - 1 win
  • Protoss - 1 win
  • Random - 1 win
  • Breakdown
    
    • 2v2 (Silver) - 60/121
    • 3v3 (Silver) - 15/30
    • 4v4 (Gold) - 2/6

Custom - 163 games
FFA - 6 games
Co-op - 53 games

[stessier]

Sorry, gotta say it again.




WOO-HOO!!

[Little Raven]

Congrats, man! Doesn't it feel great?

I suspect you're well on your way to Gold already. Just keep up the mental checklist and you'll do fine.

And come play with us sometime! We've got Matrix in, now you need to join!

[stessier]

Thanks! It really did feel good to see that window finally pop up. Then I started scrambling to get a picture without accidentally clicking ok.

I would love to play with you guys - but 9pm CST (and I'm in central) is tough for me to make. I'm usually asleep by 7:30-8. Of course, if I stop waking up at 4 am to play, I might be able to stay up a little later. I'll have to see if I can work it in once or twice a week. Are you guys on every night?

[stessier]

I got banned for a week from posting on the Starcraft forums.

I posted almost the same message (modified slightly for the audience) in the T, Z, & P forums thanking them for the help in leveling up. The reason is so generic - spamming/trolling/harassment/etc. I think it might have been spamming since I placed it in three forums - but I had a good reason. People don't read all three forums - I think it was legit to post it in all three. I almost never post there - only have like 4 posts in the last 6 months - so it's not a great loss as I can still read - I'm just irked because I'm not sure why it happened I have no idea though how to find out what I did wrong or plead my case.

Makes me appreciate my home away from home even more.

Edit:

This is great to have in your CoC

Do not post about locked or deleted threads
Posts that are moderated have a reason behind the moderation. It's up to you to read the forum code of conduct and these guidelines to determine what you did wrong, learn from your mistake, and attempt to post again without breaking any rules.

Heh. Well at least now I know.

[stessier]

9pm Central and I'm all alone.

[Matrix]

Congrats on silver. and damn you played a lot.

I am bronze at bronze now (at #10 i think), focusing mostly on macro, though its really easy to get distracted by micro. Had a crazy game last night, I am zerg he is terran. I take over map, and he sits in one base, and then starts drops, banshees , thors mass marines. Game was about an hour, and the main problem was that when ever i would push him back into his base, he had siege tanks and bunkers on the hill... super annoying, since i would take his attacking force out then try to push back and run into tanks. I did win after he took out my main twice, and my secondary, and then at least 2 another expansions. I won because i relocated my main and kept attacking him. Then it hit me, i even had corraptors vs vikings, all i needed to do was get brood lords and game over for him. Well good learning lesson. I literally scraped by....barely, against some crappy mid bronze terran. I
I am not doing rushes right now, since i find i can pull off rushes pretty well, but it does nothing for my micro.

PS: food for thought just saw top 200 players list in North America from past week. Only 2 are zerg in top 20, 8 protos (of them 4 in top 5) and 10 are terran. When ever i see this kind of top 20, i know which race is too weak. I am sure blizzard notes this, i wonder how they will fix it.

PS2: Was watching of really big tournament going on in europe right now, and caster mentioned that there were 10 Terran players and 2 protos, no zerg. Interesting.

[stessier]

Thanks for the games last night!! I'm only mildly tired this morning, so I'm counting that as a win.

Matrix - someone else said I had played a lot. Is that really a lot of games? I usually play for about 2-3 hours a day. It's going to take me over a year to get a race to 1000 wins, so I thought I was taking my sweet time.

[stessier]

PS: food for thought just saw top 200 players list in North America from past week. Only 2 are zerg in top 20, 8 protos (of them 4 in top 5) and 10 are terran. When ever i see this kind of top 20, i know which race is too weak. I am sure blizzard notes this, i wonder how they will fix it.

That is the general consensus on every Zerg board I've read. I don't see it at my level though. I make so many mistakes that they are the reason when I lose, not that I didn't have a chance. If I ever get to diamond, I might start to worry about it.

[Matrix]

I think Zerg is just harder initially is because it requires the ability to monitor production and macro units in waves. I keep forgetting it, so i end up with strong army, but it dies, and i forgot to macro reinforcements. I have to get used macro units during the battle. Since short cuts do allow that. I am used to looking at the hatchery, and i really don't need too.
My big thing will be setting up hotkeys i like. The 4,5 for hatcheries just doesnt work for me, i find it uncomfortable. Since they now they allow to remap htokeys, i think i will spend time doing that. I also need to learn all the short cuts, i know some, but the issue is, i dont know them all, not even majority. Probably will play some AI games and will just focus on hot keys memorization.

Do you guys keep army on one short cut or 2? i might just use number keys for the army management. Have to think about it, what feels better.

I do think terran and Protos are easier to play from get go, but since i want to learn macro, i much rather get it right with Zerg first and then apply to other Races.

[stessier]

I put my Hatches on 0.

For a while I had my queens on a control group too. I really have to get back to that. I did change the base key to ~, but without the queens on a control group, it doesn't help as much. Really have to get back to that too.

I put my army on 1 group, but I don't use Infestors and always forget my Corrupters can corrupt. As I said - my mistakes are far worse than any balance issue.

As for hotkeys, I don't use the grid so I find it pretty easy

For me it is 0 + S +

D - Drone
Q - Queen
Z - zergling
R- roach
H - hydra
Muta - T (huh? Weird so I don't forget)
C - Corrupter (Do not hit V!)
V - Overlord (Do not hit C!)

B-H - build hive
B-E - Extractor
B-S - spawn pool
B-R - roach warren
B-B - Baneling Nest
B-V - Evo chamber

B-A - Spore colony (build air defense is how I remember)
B-C - Spine crawler

V-H - Hydralisk den
V-S - Spire
V-I - Infestor Pit

The only other one I use is V for the Queen inject and C for Creep tumor spread.

I've only ever used Ultralisks once, and I had to find the den using the mouse. I also use the mouse when I go Greater Spire. Rare things I don't memorize.

[stessier]

Thanks for the games last night!! I'm only mildly tired this morning, so I'm counting that as a win.

Okay, definitely dragging at this point...but I want to play tonight!!!

We'll have to see. It is bath night for the little zerglings and that is generally taxing for this Terran. If I manage my harass well enough to contain them to one base them by 7:30, there's a good chance I'll be on tonight. If not it'll probably be gg.

[BlottoBot]

Figured Id register for this community seeing as numerous people I now play starcraft with call this board home. For WarPanda http://www.threadless.com/product/178/P ... tyle,shirt if he ever decides to play professionally he needs to wear this shirt to tournaments.

[stessier]

Welcome!

Funny, I always think of this when I see WarPanda's name.

[WarPanda]

You know what is awesome Blotto. I already have the shirt!

An old friend of mine got it for me a few years ago. My wife wears it now. Its so hot! My wife, that is....not the panda stomping army guys. Although that is pretty cool too, and makes me want to be a giant gentle panda killing little humans but really though....my wife is hot.

If you get me some corporate sponsors that will pay a decent salary I will totally play professionally and wear this shirt everywhere I go and yell shout out to the OO community and especially you Blotto because Canada is awesome and so are you!

I will look for you tonight gang!