Twilight Struggle coming to the PC! [and iOS, Android etc]

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:32 pm

Yeah, I am not saying they shouldn't have to explain, just throwing some thoughts out there as a mostly disinterested bystander.

It looks like they are going to have no trouble funding, so you can wait and see anyway.

AWS260 · Post by **AWS260** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:57 pm

I think they explained things reasonably well in the announcement that Archinerd posted a few months ago.

As many of you may remember, when we first put our Electronic PC version of Twilight Struggle on our P500 list, I assured you guys that there was no way I was going to charge your cards or release that game unless I was satisfied that it would deliver a high-quality game experience, comparable to the other most popular boardgame to electronic conversions. Regrettably, after a long and challenging development process, I have come to the conclusion that the current PC version will not meet that standard, at least not in any reasonable time frame.

That's polite business-speak for "the developers we picked did such a shitty job that their work was un-salvageable."

And their P500 pre-order system only bills when the product ships, not at the time you place your order. The only party that lost money on that first attempt was GMT.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:59 pm

Yeah, but now they push that risk to the backers, who, if they fail again, are out their money regardless of the outcome. I will wait for the release and reviews, as I really don't want to put my funds at risk on a "take 2" situation.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:22 pm

tgb wrote:I went to pre-order and they wanted credit card information. Perhaps they held cards to charge when the game shipped. I don't know because I never actually ordered it.

Perhaps they didn't charge cards and perhaps this is a more reliable developer, but to not even address all the issues around the first attempt at development is disingenuous, at best.

If you're talking about GMT's P500 program, they don't charge until the game is ready to ship. You might wait two or three years before that happens, but they won't take your money before it does.

As for Playdek, they look pretty solid. Their iOS versions of Agricola and Waterdeep seem to have satisfied lots of people. And it's notable that the Kickstarter sponsor is GMT itself, not the developer team. I've never been anything but impressed with GMT customer service, so I'm starting to thing this won't be a debacle like most of the money I've Kickstarted away.

Ooooohh, and this is interesting. An expansion to the original TS that you can get in physical form as well as with the game:

To help us out with this Kickstarter campaign, Ananda Gupta and Jason Matthews have come together once more to create a new expansion for Twilight Struggle called Twilight Struggle: What If?! This expansion is going to be brand new, and you will be able to receive a digital copy, a physical copy, or even both depending on your backer tier!

Twilight Struggle: What If? is a new mini-expansion that lets players explore alternate starting situations for the two superpowers. What if Chiang's forces had held on in southern China? What if Churchill's Tories had won re-election in 1945? And what if the Western Allies had crossed the bridge too far, and reached Berlin first? These and other possibilities that alter the opening setup in Twilight Struggle are now open to players. Both seasoned veterans and new arrivals will enjoy the many new plays and dilemmas introduced here for the first time. This expansion will contain 8 cards, one set of charts and tables, and the rules on how to play with the expansion.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:43 pm

For those of you who have backed it for $30 or more - they are promising access to the Beta. Is it out yet? And if so, how is it and how complete? If there is an NDA in effect, answer as completely as you can. If there is really a beta available I may just eat my words and cough up $30.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:04 pm

There's probably not an alpha yet.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:12 pm

Now the news!

If you backed TS and you're in the Steam beta, the latest update finally includes AI play.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 11:05 pm

Whoo hoo!

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:04 am

About time. Although I guess I could have been playing with OO people this whole time.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:09 pm

The AI is actually pretty good, and being able to play a full game in about an hour is great. I haven't seen it make it boneheaded moves, and it's obviously aware of the scoring cards it holds and when to play them.

There might be some interface issues still. A few cards don't always seem to be playable as events ("Formosa Resolution" for the U.S. and "Red Scare" for the U.S.S.R., maybe others). [It's possible that today's new update fixed this.]

I've played a few games as the U.S. into the late-war era, and I've yet to see the U.S.S.R. AI spend points on China (or, thus, use the China Card). This probably means the Chinese Civil War variant doesn't yet work.

I'm having fun with it!

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:52 pm

Personally I have been dubious about whether it's worth it for the USSR to put points into China anyway.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:27 pm

El Guapo wrote:Personally I have been dubious about whether it's worth it for the USSR to put points into China anyway.

I thought the Chinese Civil War variant was a game balancer. Wasn't it added to a second edition in order to soften the early-game advantage of the USSR?

The China Card is very useful, and I love to have it in play.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:48 pm

Holman wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Personally I have been dubious about whether it's worth it for the USSR to put points into China anyway.
I thought the Chinese Civil War variant was a game balancer. Wasn't it added to a second edition in order to soften the early-game advantage of the USSR?

The China Card is very useful, and I love to have it in play.

Yes, it's a USSR 'nerf', since in vanilla TS the Soviet player starts with the China Card for free. And yes, the China card is very useful. BUT the Soviets have to pay 3 IPs and use part or all of a turn in order to get it, and then the US player is going to get it for free (zero IPs, zero turns used) once the Soviets have used it.

I haven't played in awhile, but playing the Soviets it generally seemed preferable to use IPs on whatever region is currently on fire, rather than use influence and money in order to get a couple IPs a little bit earlier than the US gets them.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:41 pm

The China Card is obviously useful towards Asia Scoring, but it also provides a cushion against any really bad card staring at you from your hand.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:46 pm

Holman wrote:The China Card is obviously useful towards Asia Scoring, but it also provides a cushion against any really bad card staring at you from your hand.

Right. Again, I'm not questioning the usefulness of the China Card. I'm questioning whether it is worth it to the Soviets when you expend the full cost (time and influence) to get the card but both players get the benefit. Obviously the Soviets get it first, but I don't know that the expenditure of influence and time is worth that.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:12 pm

As for the game itself, I'm mainly excited for it to be out on Android, as it would be awesome to be able to play against the AI on the go (or ideally PBEM-style against another person).

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:21 pm

Looked up the rules and it looks like there are some minor consequences for the soviets leaving the china space alone in the civil war variant - a few event cards get tilted slightly towards the US, which could possibly cost the USSR a couple of victory points (most notably a -1 penalty for the USSR on the Korean War event). So I guess it's one of those things you do if the American player whiffs on a coup and you've got extra cards to spend.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:28 pm

I selected PC for my platform, but then at the end I added an iOS copy (for my iPad) for just five more bucks.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:58 am

Where did you order it? Is there a release date yet? The game is really up my alley but I never had a chance to try it since none of my friends are board gamers.

How's the learning curve for a noob like me?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:33 am

tgb wrote:Where did you order it? Is there a release date yet? The game is really up my alley but I never had a chance to try it since none of my friends are board gamers.

How's the learning curve for a noob like me?

I don't think there's a release date yet, but it's pretty polished and must be getting close. I'm in the beta on Steam because I backed the Kickstarter.

The learning curve is easy for the actual mechanics. There are hustlers who memorize every card played and finesse the reshuffles, but it's not a hard game to play and enjoy. The sense of narrative is great.

I really hope GMT will hire Playdek to use this same engine and implement the COIN games with it.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:43 am

tgb wrote:Where did you order it? Is there a release date yet? The game is really up my alley but I never had a chance to try it since none of my friends are board gamers.

How's the learning curve for a noob like me?

Easy to learn - a lifetime to master.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:18 pm

I've opted out of the new shooter rotation. This might be the first game in a long time that I pay full price for.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:49 pm

I just read that TS is set to launch on Steam this Wednesday, April 13.

Having backed the Kickstarter, I've been playing the beta, and I'm really impressed with it. The presentation captures everything in the boardgame.

(I don't know when iOS or other implementations are coming.)

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:55 pm

Holman wrote:I just read that TS is set to launch on Steam this Wednesday, April 13.

Having backed the Kickstarter, I've been playing the beta, and I'm really impressed with it. The presentation captures everything in the boardgame.

(I don't know when iOS or other implementations are coming.)

How is the AI?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:39 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Holman wrote:I just read that TS is set to launch on Steam this Wednesday, April 13.

Having backed the Kickstarter, I've been playing the beta, and I'm really impressed with it. The presentation captures everything in the boardgame.

(I don't know when iOS or other implementations are coming.)
How is the AI?

I'm sure you would kick its ass, but it has beaten me fair and square a few times.

It's respectable, I think. It definitely knows how to set up for its own scoring cards, and its behavior seems more focused than random. It seems to notice when you appear to be focusing on a region as well.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:37 pm

Price?

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:53 am

tgb wrote:Price?

Dunno that. But you'll find out tomorrow.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:23 am

It's been on Steam since yesterday, but there's no price set yet.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:28 am

Although doing more research, it looks like it'll have a price of $15 with a sale of $12 the first week.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:15 am

I mainly want to play this on my Android phone. My understanding is that the Android version is not out yet - is that a separate purchase? Or if I buy this can I later download it on my phone once that version is ready?

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:50 am

This may be the first game in forever that I pay full/launch pricing for.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:43 pm

Separate price, in the works. My KS came with only one key. I figured the steam version could best process the AI.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:31 pm

Nice price

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:56 pm

El Guapo wrote:I mainly want to play this on my Android phone. My understanding is that the Android version is not out yet - is that a separate purchase? Or if I buy this can I later download it on my phone once that version is ready?

It's probably a separate purchase, as I've never heard of a Steam purchase that carried over into a different platform.

In the Kickstarter, I chose to have my game delivered via Steam, then I tacked on a little extra money for an iOS copy too.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:01 pm

Zarathud wrote: I figured the steam version could best process the AI.

That could well be. But it's hard to imagine me sitting at the computer playing the AI in this. But it would be great to fight the Cold War while on the can.

Also, I can't help but wonder if they're going to try to take down the Vassal module on this. You'd think a free multiplayer version of this (admittedly, lacking single player) would cut into their sales a bit.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:04 pm

I hope they won't mess with the VASSAL. GMT has usually been great there.

Technically you can't play the VASSAL module without owning the paper game charts, right?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:18 pm

Holman wrote:I hope they won't mess with the VASSAL. GMT has usually been great there.

Technically you can't play the VASSAL module without owning the paper game charts, right?

I dunno specific to TS. I know that it's common in Vassal modules to leave out stuff like that to make it more difficult for people who haven't purchased the physical game to essentially pirate the game via VASSAL; I'm familiar enough with TS that I don't need the charts, so I can't recall if they left them off or not.

But the interests of a computer game diverge a bit as to VASSAL from that of the board game. VASSAL arguably helps board game sales in at least one way, in that it allows people who own the games to actually play them when getting people together is difficult (for, to pick a random example, friends with small children). The computer game is, as far as I can tell, serving largely the same function. The only additional features is the single-player (but I'm always skeptical of the long-term viability of AI in strategy games like this).

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:53 pm

I would guess that the VASSAL crowd and the PC/tablet/phone crowd are mostly different markets.

Probably the bigger question was whether a $15 computer version (not even a direct GMT product) would damage sales of the $60 physical board game. Apparently they think it's a good move.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:24 pm

Still learning the game (tutorial? pfft. I have played 1960: Making of the President, so at least I understand the style of gameplay)

Still figuring out what everything means, but why does the AI opponent take so long?

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:10 pm

So for those that have it, would you recommend picking it up right now while it's on sale?