Dawn of War III (Prerelease)

Jow · Post by **Jow** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:38 pm

Just starting a thread (way early!) for buzz.

Read this today:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011- ... st-details" target="_blank

I'm very curious to see how Relic follows up on DoW2, a fun but also pretty flawed game imo. I suspect we may have seen the last of the CoH-style VP approach unless it's significantly tweaked.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:21 pm

We've known it was coming for a while from the cryptic messages they've posted but good to hear. Some early comments from the developers on the forums suggests that the scale of the game will move slightly back towards Dawn of War 1 with larger armies and even include some basic structures again.

The mentioned development window seems a bit optimistic though as I highly doubt we will see a release before 2013.

Doomboy · Post by **Doomboy** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:14 am

That would be nice. I would enjoy a combination of the play style of the first and second DOW games. Base building, armies and hero units that pick up wargear and get skills upgraded sounds like fun. Add in the big campaign map with choosing your battles from the first DOW expansions, and I would be very happy.

What I really wish we could get would be some kind of random mission generator, so that playing the game wouldn't get stale as quickly.

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:56 pm

It took them a while, but it evidently gets released next week. Open beta all weekend.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:28 pm

Happened to read a review and it was lukewarm. The changes away from II have me concerned, as II is on my top games of all time list.

That said, #1 was on the list too at one point, so maybe I'm needlessly concerned.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:00 pm

I’ve played a few matches now. My initial impression was complete disappointment. I’ve warmed up to it slightly but it’s definitely no DoW2.

Zenn7 · Post by **Zenn7** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:04 am

Lordnine wrote:I’ve played a few matches now. My initial impression was complete disappointment. I’ve warmed up to it slightly but it’s definitely no DoW2.

Some of us were hoping for something closer to DOW1 - how's it compare on that front?

raydude · Post by **raydude** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:25 am

Is there a strategic map that lets you order units, a la COH? That's my preferred method of navigating and getting the big picture.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:35 am

Zenn7 wrote:
Lordnine wrote:I’ve played a few matches now. My initial impression was complete disappointment. I’ve warmed up to it slightly but it’s definitely no DoW2.
Some of us were hoping for something closer to DOW1 - how's it compare on that front?

It’s not really. There are as many units as there were in DoW1 but they don’t really matter. Part of the problem I see is that units become obsolete once higher tiers are reached and pacing is odd. The early game feels a bit like DoW2, what with positioning and unit abilities actually mattering but that only lasts maybe 10 minutes at the most.

When the first Elite units come out everything changes. I’ve been playing mostly Eldar and one of my cheap Elites (Macha) has a spear throw ability. She throws her spear and then can detonate it. If I land it in a group of pretty much any basic infantry it will obliterate entire squads.

This goes on for maybe 10 minutes with basic elites dominating the battlefield.

After that point, things scale up hugely with blobs of infantry clashing. This is my least favorite part of the game because it does just feel like a numbers game. There may be higher tactics here but everyone is so new that it’s just blob v blob. Units are also cheap and easily replaced at this level so losing them doesn’t really matter.

The game tends to end when the big Elites come down. These look impressive but I actually really hate them because they make armies largely irrelevant. That’s not to say they can’t be killed by infantry, they can, but all of them have massive AoE abilities that will nuke entire armies. This has the meat grinder effect where most people just try to overwhelm them with numbers. As someone who took pride in not losing units in DoW2, this just isn’t fun to me.

And if you’ve bothered to add up my minute math, here is my other big complaint. These games tend to drag on a long time. 40+ minutes is the average, not an outlier. As someone who plays a lot of HotS right now, that is a big time investment. I could get two games of that in in the same amount of time.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:37 am

I don't know about you Lordnine but when DOW II first released, it was panned because it wasn't like DOW I. Will DOW III eventually be embraced by the community? I'm on the fence about the game, I don't play MP, and the review I read said the AI was good, but the game may be too fast for me.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:39 am

raydude wrote:Is there a strategic map that lets you order units, a la COH? That's my preferred method of navigating and getting the big picture.

I don’t think so. This isn’t the type of game that would benefit from that. They have largely removed cover as a thing, so you can’t send units to reliably defend an area anymore. They replaced it with really (IMO) dumb bubble cover nodes. If you capture them your units inside take no damage from ranged units. Melee units can just walk inside though. You also have “hidden area”, smoke vents that conceal units inside. This lets you setup ambushes but I don’t think it offers any other defensive abilities.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:53 am

Lorini wrote:I don't know about you Lordnine but when DOW II first released, it was panned because it wasn't like DOW I. Will DOW III eventually be embraced by the community? I'm on the fence about the game, I don't play MP, and the review I read said the AI was good, but the game may be too fast for me.

I don’t know if I would consider an 85% on MC panned but I will concede a lot of the original fans were unhappy with the direction they went. I accepted it and thought it was a huge improvement on the original. I was actually ranked in the top 100 players in the world in DoW2, if you want some perspective on my opinions. (Rank 86 I think)

And here we are with DoWIII, which is as different from DoWII as it was to DoWI. I don’t think the changes make as much sense here though. They re-added buildings but they they don’t really factor into gameplay in any meaningful way; they are just an extra step to produce units. As I was playing last night, I kept thinking, why don’t I have my menu that just has everything I can build on it? Instead, during a fight, I have to hunt for or hotkey my specific production facility and queue up units. Or when I need to upgrade units. DoW2 put this right on the unit itself. Looking for the building just seems clunky for the sake of satisfying old fans who demanded buildings.

Now that said and as I already pointed out, I have warmed up to the game slightly. It's not what I wanted but it's OK. I’m sure there will be a following but I think it will be mostly newcomers that embrace it instead of fans of either the original games.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:53 pm

Thanks much for your perspective, that's what I needed to hear. The thing is, the game won't be going on sale for a long time I'm afraid and I'm wavering on not wanting to buy it

.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:42 pm

Lorini wrote:I don't know about you Lordnine but when DOW II first released, it was panned because it wasn't like DOW I.

That was not my experience. Neither my personal experience nor what I heard from gamers at large.

It's possible we were just in different communities though.

What DoW II was going to be was clear long before it was released so it should not have been a surprise to anyone.

That said, those who prefer base building were unhappy, while those who thought base building was busy work before you "got to the good stuff" were pleased.

Neither opinion is "right", personal preferences being what they are.

Zenn7 · Post by **Zenn7** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:03 pm

Sounds like a lot DOW1 was brought back in with the buildings and tiers of units (or maybe I am not translating the commentary quite right). Your upper tier infantry/vehicles and then your relic super units in DOW1 sound similar to the tiers described here.

Being cheap and having too little time to play the good games I currently own and am greatly enjoying, probably won't get this until it comes down in price or good sale or something. Maybe it'll be the monthly humble bundle big game sometime... (just saying that cause I just got new PC a few weeks ago and got Totalwar: Warhammer from the monthly bundle just about on time to play that - great timing!).

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:25 pm

Zenn7 wrote:Sounds like a lot DOW1 was brought back in with the buildings and tiers of units (or maybe I am not translating the commentary quite right). Your upper tier infantry/vehicles and then your relic super units in DOW1 sound similar to the tiers described here.

The concepts from DoW1 are back but they really don’t play in the same manner. Most tier 1 units are basically obsolete by the time 2 rolls around and are even worse by tier 3. Elites can one shot whole squads of infantry, but don’t confuse them for Relic units, at least not the early games ones. You get your first Elite around the 10 minute mark. I guess the 9 cost Elite could fill that role but they are so much more powerful than Relic units in DoW1 to be their own category.

Buildings are back yes, but I never have felt like I needed more than 1 of each. They are just something to sit in your base and click on in order to generate units.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:27 pm

Also, the Beta is currently open to anyone if you want to try it for yourself. Ends sometime tomorrow I believe. I know a lot of you are single player only gamers though so be aware you can’t play against AI in the beta.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:22 pm

Huh. I'd actually give it a try if there was more time. By the time it gets downloaded and after work tomorrow there will either be little or no time left.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:16 am

So I’m about halfway through the DoWIII campaign and I unfortunately have to report I’m underwhelmed. It’s not bad but it feels rushed and underdeveloped, not to mention a little bit buggy. In one mission I had my hero units abilities disappear from the interface for no reason. I could still use the abilities by hitting the hotkeys but the icons were gone.

Voice acting is a step down from the previous games. Most of the voice actors for main characters did not come back and while their replacements are doing their best, they just don’t measure up. Gabriel is the biggest offender here. I would have preferred if they just introduced a new character. There is no reason the protagonist needs to be the Chapter Master, in fact, it seems out of place given some of things he’s doing.

Story telling itself is also a step down. The first couple missions I actually found it a bit painful. They were having people like Gabriel, Chapter Master who has now encountered ALL of the DOW races, acting confused and surprised by the things Eldar were doing. Just felt really out of character. I realize they were doing this for new comers to the series, but again, using a blank slate character for this would have made more sense. 8 Missions in, it’s getting better but I just find it a lot less compelling than the excellent DoW2 campaign.

Now gameplay, which is what most of you probably care about feels severely drawn out. This is going to come down to personal preference, but I have never cared for RTS missions where you have to build a base from scratch, make a whole army, and then go attack the enemy.

Unfortunately, that is how most of the missions play out. Except it’s worse than if you were playing multiplayer because your income and unit selection is limited versus an opponent that usually has free summons and a prebuilt base.

All in all, I can’t shake the feeling that this game needed another 6 months of development time.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:07 am

I'm skipping the campaign and going straight into skirmish with the AI, my normal procedure.

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Mon May 01, 2017 11:41 am

It feels like a giant step backwards to me. The removal of the cover system is egregious. Also, with the removal of wargear and campaign bonuses, it all just feels like a bunch of different scenarios.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon May 01, 2017 4:05 pm

Wait, no cover? There was cover in the first one. Holding positions was more meaningful than in other rts because they had real combat value.

Ugh.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Mon May 01, 2017 4:15 pm

GreenGoo wrote:Wait, no cover? There was cover in the first one. Holding positions was more meaningful than in other rts because they had real combat value.

Ugh.

Yeah it’s one of the things that annoys me most. They added “Bubble cover” instead, there are nodes scattered around the map now. If you put a unit on them for a few seconds it generates a force field that is basically immune to ranged attacks. Melee units can still walk through it though.

They also added smoke screens, areas of the map that units can be concealed within to setup ambushes.

The closest thing to the more traditional cover that I’ve seen is one of the Eldar doctrines lets your bonesingers build force field walls that your units can hide behind and still shoot through.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon May 01, 2017 5:01 pm

That doesn't sound terrible. Cover was limited to terrain features so the new features that provide combat benefits might be "good enough".

Could be awhile until I play it myself though.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon May 01, 2017 5:18 pm

Lordnine wrote: Yeah it’s one of the things that annoys me most. They added “Bubble cover” instead, there are nodes scattered around the map now. If you put a unit on them for a few seconds it generates a force field that is basically immune to ranged attacks. Melee units can still walk through it though.

The Gungan initiative is finally paying off.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Mon May 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Can someone confirm whether or not this has the option to play through the campaign in coop? My research leads me to "no", but it'd be nice to hear it from someone who's played the game.

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Mon May 01, 2017 5:45 pm

GreenGoo wrote:That doesn't sound terrible. Cover was limited to terrain features so the new features that provide combat benefits might be "good enough".

Could be awhile until I play it myself though.

The bubbles are pretty terrible, IMO. There's a pretty big difference between "avoids a lot of damage" and "is completely immune to damage." Really though, what I miss is the wargear. I'm not feeling any incentive to play campaign missions when they're basically skirmish games with uneven starting points.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Tue May 02, 2017 12:34 am

NickAragua wrote:Can someone confirm whether or not this has the option to play through the campaign in coop? My research leads me to "no", but it'd be nice to hear it from someone who's played the game.

No co-op, sadly.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Tue May 02, 2017 9:53 am

Guess I'll be waiting for the 75% off sale then.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Fri May 05, 2017 11:57 pm

I think I’m almost to the end of the campaign now. I’ve got to say it feels like the second half of the campaign was done by an entirely different team. The first 5 or so missions are complete throw away but everything since has been pretty solid with occasional bouts of greatness. Even the writing seems to have improved.

I’m not sure what to make of that except maybe they started with the second half, realized it would be pretty short with just those missions and decided to pad out the first couple missions.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

I just finished the campaign. Took about 13 hours to complete. The last few missions are really solid; I wish the first half of the game had been like that. All in all, it’s worth a look on sale but I don’t think I can recommend it at full price unless you intend to dive fully into multiplayer.

The reveal after the credits is bound to make a few people happy though!

Zenn7 · Post by **Zenn7** » Thu May 18, 2017 10:40 pm

Lordnine wrote:I just finished the campaign. Took about 13 hours to complete. The last few missions are really solid; I wish the first half of the game had been like that. All in all, it’s worth a look on sale but I don’t think I can recommend it at full price unless you intend to dive fully into multiplayer.

The reveal after the credits is bound to make a few people happy though!

Greenmangaming sent me a code I can get this 50% of ($30). Was mildly tempted, but I'm not into multiplayer. I'd play the campaign and skirmish with AI if it was enjoyable enough. Just doesn't sound that exciting and fun from the descriptions here so far. Some day in the far future on deep discount maybe...

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Fri May 19, 2017 2:22 pm

I’ve gotten into the multiplayer a bit since my last post and have had a pretty good time with it but it really doesn’t compare to DoW2 for me. I think this is an example of a game developer listening to the wrong people in the community.

If you go on their forums right now you will see lots of threads of people suggesting ideas to open the game up to the “normal” players. Most of these suggestions aren’t big sweeping changes, just things that make controlling units better and makes the game more approachable. In response, the hardcore eSports type players are yelling back at them that they just need to “git good” and other annoying phrases. Because they are yelling the loudest, it looks like that is the common opinion. In reality, the more casual players don’t bother yelling on message boards, they just stop playing when they realize the game isn’t made for them.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:54 pm

They just released Annihilation Mode which might make it better for multiplayer and comp stomps...just an fyi...don't know for sure

Edit: NM, misunderstood. They announced the new mode, not released it...sigh

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:08 pm

Shouldn't it be afternoon of war by now?

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:33 pm

El Guapo wrote:Shouldn't it be afternoon of war by now?

Well, it was already 40th millennium of war when the first game came out, so...

Sure.

Tea Time of War would also be acceptable.

Lordnine · Post by **Lordnine** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:44 pm

IceBear wrote:They just released Annihilation Mode which might make it better for multiplayer and comp stomps...just an fyi...don't know for sure

Edit: NM, misunderstood. They announced the new mode, not released it...sigh

Honestly, I don’t see the addition of annihilation mode doing much to revive the game. Power Core basically already is Annihilation; the only difference is that instead of destroying a bunch of little buildings in the enemy base you are destroying one big building in the enemy base.

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:15 pm

Yeah...I think I misunderstood what it was. Sorry

Hrothgar · Post by **Hrothgar** » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:13 pm

Sega sent me a steam coupon for 50% off. I guess it's sad that that's not too temping for me. Does anyone want the coupon (for free, of course, unless you have to get something in a steam trade)?

I might pick it up dirt cheap for the single player campaign some day, but $30 is still too rich for me.

killbot737 · Post by **killbot737** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:20 pm

Been released. Free weekend. Also 50% off - $20.