Wasteland 2 - Impressions start page 8

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Carpet_pissr
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Carpet_pissr »

wonderpug wrote:No no, it's just me getting my threads mixed up. That message was from Double Fine.
Gotcha, but I am a backer for both, and the emails/messages I am getting from them are eerily similar! I guess it's more the fact that they are (both) surprised and thrilled with the overwhelming, unexpectedly positive responses they have both received for their projects.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Hipolito »

I thought about getting the blood sausage, but for that kind of money, inXile should give me a gun so that I can go out and make my own blood sausage. Give a man a fish and all that.

Then I thought about having something in the game named after me. It would be a real honor to appear in the sequel to one of my favorite games of all time. But my name would appear in the more complete walkthroughs on GameFAQs. Anyone Googling me might think I'm in a cult that worships mushroom clouds. Who'd want to have to explain that?

Maybe I'll just settle to see my name in the credits.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Matrix »

My question, do they pay back money if we invest? because it seems they keep listing rewards but i dont see anything that states thats this is an investment. Which is confuses me since kick starter is for raising funds.
So if i pay lets say 15$, it will get me digital copy, but do they also plan to pay the money back?

Not that it matters, but it just curious that all the talk about rewards yet i am not seeing how this is an investment .
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Grifman »

Matrix wrote:My question, do they pay back money if we invest? because it seems they keep listing rewards but i dont see anything that states thats this is an investment. Which is confuses me since kick starter is for raising funds.
So if i pay lets say 15$, it will get me digital copy, but do they also plan to pay the money back?

Not that it matters, but it just curious that all the talk about rewards yet i am not seeing how this is an investment .
No, no money back.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

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In for the min.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by TiLT »

Matrix wrote:My question, do they pay back money if we invest? because it seems they keep listing rewards but i dont see anything that states thats this is an investment. Which is confuses me since kick starter is for raising funds.
So if i pay lets say 15$, it will get me digital copy, but do they also plan to pay the money back?

Not that it matters, but it just curious that all the talk about rewards yet i am not seeing how this is an investment .
You're paying for a product that isn't complete. It's an investment because your money is spent making the product in the first place. What you get in return is the product, and any other rewards you've qualified for. This doesn't turn you into an investor.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by khomotso »

Matrix wrote:Not that it matters, but it just curious that all the talk about rewards yet i am not seeing how this is an investment .
The whole idea is to cut investors out of the loop, and (in principle) give the developers more creative control and freedom. Also more direct accountability to the fans. A failed kickstarter project has fewer excuses, and this could do more to build or sink reputations.

I'm mainly interested to see how a different dynamic might change the development process. I think the enthusiasm isn't going to last very long if they take their money and then go underground to knock the game out. Apart from seeing more niche products greenlit, it'll be interesting to see if, in the competition for kickstarter attention, the teams find new ways to make backers feel part of the process. And then whether fan involvement proves to be counterproductive in ways different from investors.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Carpet_pissr »

khomotso wrote:
Matrix wrote:Not that it matters, but it just curious that all the talk about rewards yet i am not seeing how this is an investment .
The whole idea is to cut investors out of the loop, and (in principle) give the developers more creative control and freedom. Also more direct accountability to the fans. A failed kickstarter project has fewer excuses, and this could do more to build or sink reputations.

I'm mainly interested to see how a different dynamic might change the development process. I think the enthusiasm isn't going to last very long if they take their money and then go underground to knock the game out. Apart from seeing more niche products greenlit, it'll be interesting to see if, in the competition for kickstarter attention, the teams find new ways to make backers feel part of the process. And then whether fan involvement proves to be counterproductive in ways different from investors.
Interesting point. My immediate reaction was that I think the quality of the final product will matter more than the development process, but with some of these having 1 or 2 year productions, I wonder how patient people will really be (I, personally, am completely ok with it, and if a great game requires them to go underground with my cash, I am still ok with it).

But I do see the point that probably most people want to be a part of the development process, even if as an onlooker with minimal "investment". I know that was a draw for me, because I think (hope) something very cool will come out of this, which is really the only reward I am looking for. I could care less about the "extras" - game music soundtracks, signed box cartons, figurines, etc (never been into those kinds of goodies that usually come with "deluxe" versions of games), but that is a big draw for some people of course.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by killbot737 »

I think if they do something between Toady and Dwarf Fortress and Introversion and their dev blogs people will be satisfied. I think folks just like to know _something_ is happening. Once every week or two is enough to let me pretend that they haven't flown off to Argentina with my money (yet).

Long periods with no updates are always worrying, but going into the specifics of how the toebone code is coming along is overkill IMO. :)
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Smoove_B »

khomotso wrote: The whole idea is to cut investors out of the loop, and (in principle) give the developers more creative control and freedom. Also more direct accountability to the fans. A failed kickstarter project has fewer excuses, and this could do more to build or sink reputations.
If you go into the forums they're already asking for input. Of course it has the potential to get out of hand but I trust that without needing to worry about whether or not it will sell, they can focus on decisions related to creative control.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Archinerd »

killbot737 wrote:I think if they do something between Toady and Dwarf Fortress and Introversion and their dev blogs people will be satisfied. I think folks just like to know _something_ is happening. Once every week or two is enough to let me pretend that they haven't flown off to Argentina with my money (yet).

Long periods with no updates are always worrying, but going into the specifics of how the toebone code is coming along is overkill IMO. :)
Once a week or two is too often. They will be spending all their time making blog posts instead of writing code. I'd be happy with quarterly or bi-monthly (every other month) updates.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Lordnine »

Grifman wrote:
Matrix wrote:My question, do they pay back money if we invest? because it seems they keep listing rewards but i dont see anything that states thats this is an investment. Which is confuses me since kick starter is for raising funds.
So if i pay lets say 15$, it will get me digital copy, but do they also plan to pay the money back?

Not that it matters, but it just curious that all the talk about rewards yet i am not seeing how this is an investment .
No, no money back.
I'm not sure if this is correct. I joined the Double Fine kickstarter and wasn't charged UNTIL the the kickstarter project had closed.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by silverjon »

Kickstarter projects take no money until the fundraising period ends, and then only if the goal is met. If the project doesn't get funded, nobody pays anything.

But it's basically an up-front payment or contribution, not a loan, and not an investment wherein you share in the profits. (Now, with a service likes Bandstocks, you actually do invest in the artist, which is also very cool.)
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Daehawk »

Brian Fargo video on the game ...comic :)

Wish I could win the lotto cause I'd definitely do the 10,000 buck deal :)
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Daehawk wrote:Brian Fargo video on the game ...comic :)

Wish I could win the lotto cause I'd definitely do the 10,000 buck deal :)
First things first. Brian, please take my $15, and go buy yourself a t-shirt to replace that hideous purply fleur-de-lis (sp?) one.

My eyes! :D
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by TiLT »

Smoove_B wrote:
khomotso wrote: The whole idea is to cut investors out of the loop, and (in principle) give the developers more creative control and freedom. Also more direct accountability to the fans. A failed kickstarter project has fewer excuses, and this could do more to build or sink reputations.
If you go into the forums they're already asking for input. Of course it has the potential to get out of hand but I trust that without needing to worry about whether or not it will sell, they can focus on decisions related to creative control.
It's already somewhat out of hand, judging from community comments on the Kickstarter page at least. I've seen all kinds of comments about how this changes the industry and how this is going to be a champion of community-driven development. In my opinion, here are two things that are more or less guaranteed to not happen with this particular project:

1) Publishers won't suddenly start caring about niche genres. They'll look at this and go "huh, I guess there is a market for these games after all. How nice for the indies". The reality is that while everyone is getting all hot and bothered over the number of backers for these projects, the publishers will see the numbers of confirmation of what they already know: This isn't something they can earn enough money on to bother looking into. Big publishers only have the capacity to deal with X number of projects at any one time, and they need to maximize the profit they can get from each one of these. Anything less than 1 million sales for a AAA-game is usually considered a flop. Wasteland 2 currently has 13,500 backers, while Double Fine Adventure, which is now done with the money-gathering phase, has 87,142. These numbers are barely blips on the radar for companies like Activision and EA.

2) Brian Fargo won't suddenly start accepting community contributions for Wasteland 2. I see some people talking about how they can have the community help creating 3D models, animations, 2D graphics, sounds, music, etc. They won't do that. It's a legal quagmire and could topple the entire project if (or when) it goes wrong. Just imagine what would happen if a contribution suddenly turned out to be copyrighted. They'd also have to write contracts for each and every one. I won't pretend to know the legal specifics, but there is a good reason why no developers do this kind of thing, at least not since the early days. Star Control 2 may have gotten away with fan-made music back in the days (and it did), but that would be far riskier today.

Some fans seem to be building up some pretty unrealistic expectations. They're going to be pretty disappointed when these expectations aren't fulfilled, and that may sour the community's mood somewhat. Let's hope that doesn't happen.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by wonderpug »

For those of you curious about how much of a cut Kickstarter and Amazon take, for the OOTS drive they took a combined $107k out of the $1.2M pledged.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by khomotso »

TiLT wrote: Wasteland 2 currently has 13,500 backers, while Double Fine Adventure, which is now done with the money-gathering phase, has 87,142. These numbers are barely blips on the radar for companies like Activision and EA.
I think I mostly agree with you, but I can't let this part go unremarked. I don't think anyone yet has a model that knows how 'backing' numbers may translate to sales numbers, but I think it would be a real misunderstanding to treat those numbers as if they were just preorders.

It's also not clear to me that this new system is really rivalrous with the publisher system. If there's a game nearly in the can, a strong community putting up cash, etc., who's to say that at some point down the road a publisher wouldn't come in and pick them up at a bargain, like some white knight venture capitalist? Especially if the project gets close to completion but runs into cash trouble near the end. Could be high margin in that. Maybe this does the publishers a favor by getting the rabid fans to put up more of the seed money when the market research is dubious.

I can imagine future blog posts from Fargo like, "Yeah, we know, but the extra $500K really lets us turn this into something the fans deserve; we're not compromising our vision at this point, the investor backing allows us to achieve it." Or words to that effect.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by silvaril »

Heya

I am inclined to think that the up front investment courtesy of Kickstarter and its ilk will allow the games to be developed to the point that Publishers can be approached.

Notably, most Publishers seem disinclined to risk investing in new titles from scratch, preferring that developers have something to show before even considering throwing money around.


I am interested in seeing whether the actual costs fall into line with the projected costs, given that a lot of what I have inferred from watching various development efforts implies interesting Project Management methodologies...
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by D.A.Lewis »

I'm in
kicked in more than the minimum because I liked the original game and I like this idea of fundraising. I hoping some developer down the line though stretches this concept even more so that you could be a real investor. I'd pony up quite a bit if Jon Van Carrigan (?) wanted to do the next Might and Magic RPG.

One of the unique things I loved about Wasteland was that it was one of the first games that allowed you to level up where ever you were in the game world. Up till then, you had to trek to some base to level up your characters

In any event as of 9:20 pm
the have 15,300 investors
and $871 355 dollars
only $30,000 more and they reach their mimimum goal
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland sequel

Post by malichai11 »

And this sucker is funded! Just hit 900K at 1:36 AM CST!
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by silverjon »

Featured in this week's newsletter, which is always good for another boost.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by TiLT »

Just upped my pledge from $30 to $115. :)
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by Grifman »

Interesting tidbit from an interview with Fargo:
GZ: We watched your Kickstarter video which was not only informative but humorous, how similar was that to the actual process of trying to get backing for Wasteland 2 before Kickstarter?

Brian Fargo: Every single comedy bit in that Kickstarter was taken from real meetings. I had people that have never heard of Interplay, or Publishers that were excited about the product who then subsequently never called me back but sent me Facebook game requests for the games they were playing. I told myself 'This guy won't return my calls, but he wants all this stuff from me on Facebook!' And even the red boots, we were in a meeting and they sent some junior guy who wanted to sit there for an hour and talk about the color and height of the boots! So this was all drawn from reality. I kid you not.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by Carpet_pissr »

From the latest update:

"One of the (more common) questions I am asked is whether we'll support console and I believe it to be unlikely. It is imperative that we deliver the core PC experience that the fans are expecting here and I want to avoid any elements that could distract us."

:wub: :wub: :wub:

Just tripled my pledge amount. Not that they need it, but dammit, I want to make a statement! :D
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by Smoove_B »

I actually thought this was more interesting (from the latest update):
And speaking of goodwill it occurs to me that we can harness the power of Kickstarter in a more meaningful way. Fan funding is bigger than me or Wasteland 2 as I have remarked before. The development community has come together to support us in ways that I didn't think possible and our power as developers will ultimately come from us sticking together. Both gamers and developers have so much more strength than they realize. But in order to help facilitate the power of crowd funding I am going to suggest that all of us that do utilize this form of financing agree to kickback 5% of our profits made from such projects to other Kickstarter developers. I am not suggesting taking a backers money and moving it to another project.. I mean once a game has shipped and created profit that we funnel that back into the community of developers to fund their dreams. I am tentatively calling this "Kick It Forward" and I will be the first to agree to it. In fact, I will have our artists create a badge that goes on all Kickstarter projects that agree to support this initiative. Imagine the potential if another Minecraft comes along via Kickstarter and produces millions of dollars of investment into other developers. This economic payback will continue to grow the movement way beyond the current system. I hope others will join me with this idea and make this a true shakeup.
Maybe Kickstarter will become the new Gathering of Developers.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by Matrix »

It is close to 1.5 million mark. Damn, kick starter will be huge for game developers. I dont just think its indie game, which in my mind made by 1 or 2 guys over period of years. This is a small budget game. They can do 2 year development with 10 team staff if average salary is 60k. That's some serious backing muscle.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by GreenGoo »

Smoove_B wrote:Maybe Kickstarter will become the new Gathering of Developers.
I thought that was a pretty cool idea at the time. Wasn't Age of Wonders the only deliverable to come out of GoD?
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by coopasonic »

GreenGoo wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:Maybe Kickstarter will become the new Gathering of Developers.
I thought that was a pretty cool idea at the time. Wasn't Age of Wonders the only deliverable to come out of GoD?
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by GreenGoo »

I vaguely recall Payne and Nocturne, but the rest are clearly lies.

And railroad tycoon II & III? Huh.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by Sepiche »

GreenGoo wrote:I vaguely recall Payne and Nocturne, but the rest are clearly lies.

And railroad tycoon II & III? Huh.
RRT 2 was indeed published by GoD... just like all those other games listed:
http://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/g ... lished-by/" target="_blank
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by stessier »

Need to check your sarcasm meter's functionality, Sepiche. :)
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by Sepiche »

stessier wrote:Need to check your sarcasm meter's functionality, Sepiche. :)
It's hard to tell in this day and age without hints. :P
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by tgb »

I have a couple of problems with the whole Kickstarter thing.

Unless I'm going to see a piece of the profits, I don't see it as my responsibility to help fund development of a game, no matter how much I may want to play it. If the developer can get it funded and completed, and the game is any good, I'll be happy to vote with my wallet at that time.

I also have concerns (not in the case of Brian Fargo or Double Fine, obviously) of Kickstarter being used as a tool to scam thousands of dollars from naive gamers.

Now, get the hell off my lawn before I call the cops.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by TiLT »

tgb wrote:Unless I'm going to see a piece of the profits, I don't see it as my responsibility to help fund development of a game, no matter how much I may want to play it.
It's not your responsibility to fund it. Kickstarter gives even the stingy people a chance to buy the game at roughly half price in most cases as long as they're willing to take a chance by buying the game before it's finished. You do not get a piece of the profits because you get a product and because that's all you paid for, though there is risk involved (which is, as mentioned, offset by the bargain price offered). These are also products you would never have seen using the traditional model. You can always buy the product after it's finished (it's not like they are Kickstarter exclusive), but you'll have to pay more and won't get access to any of the other rewards in most cases, and by not helping with the funding phase you will be part of the problem for projects that fail to get 100% funded in time.

But hey, if all you want to play is Call of Duty n+1, that's fine too. Just don't complain about the lack of turn-based RPGs or point and click adventure games or other niche genres in the marketplace and expect any sympathy from the rest of us. You reap what you sow, and the traditional publisher model has clearly demonstrated that it's insufficient for those kinds of products.
I also have concerns (not in the case of Brian Fargo or Double Fine, obviously) of Kickstarter being used as a tool to scam thousands of dollars from naive gamers.
This will happen, and has already happened with at least one other Kickstarter (not game related) where the guy behind it vanished after it was successfully funded. It's part of the risk.

It's also pretty obvious at this point that the Kickstarter wave will crash and burn at one point, most likely sooner rather than later. Right now most people are ecstatic about the chance to see their favorite niche genres back in production and aren't really considering the risks involved. Once the first big-name Kickstarter fails to deliver on time or delivers a crappy product, things will change. Good project management will be central to make this work long-term. People like Brian Fargo knows this. As he says himself, he has 30 years of experience getting games shippable and ready, and he does have a backup solution for funding in place in case the worst should happen and he fails to deliver on time.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by Carpet_pissr »

tgb wrote:I have a couple of problems with the whole Kickstarter thing.

Unless I'm going to see a piece of the profits, I don't see it as my responsibility to help fund development of a game, no matter how much I may want to play it. If the developer can get it funded and completed, and the game is any good, I'll be happy to vote with my wallet at that time.

I also have concerns (not in the case of Brian Fargo or Double Fine, obviously) of Kickstarter being used as a tool to scam thousands of dollars from naive gamers.

Now, get the hell off my lawn before I call the cops.
I don't fear scamming as much as I do a poor quality product. Which is why I said earlier I doubt I would fund anything from just a random person I had never heard of. Brian Fargo, God of Golden Age of Computer Gaming? Yes. Tim Schafer? Also yes.

John Q. Spurnick who has a great idea for an old school RPG, but who has no history or previous product to his name? Ummm, sorry dude.

Road to gaming hell is paved with good intentions and all that.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by TiLT »

Carpet_pissr wrote:John Q. Spurnick who has a great idea for an old school RPG, but who has no history or previous product to his name? Ummm, sorry dude.
I have a weak spot for small, fresh developers trying to do something different (I've been one myself and failed), so I'm the kind of guy who'd toss in a few dollars for an indie project I might like. Then again, I'm well aware of the risks. I can afford losing $10-$15 here and there, once in a while. It won't even be noticeable for my own economic situation, but it can make all the difference for a struggling indie developer.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by Smoove_B »

Exactly - and that's why I didn't hesitate to drop $10 and support Faster Than Light via Kickstarter. Granted they had a demo and a series of awards, but $10? I've spent more money on bigger budget games and been totally disappointed.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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tgb
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by tgb »

Wasn't there a guy here (it may even have been GG) years ago who, having made a text-based boxing game (or something like that) solicited pre-orders/funding for some gladiatorial game, and just took off with everyone's cash? I see the potential for the same thing happening, but on a larger scale.

As to niche genres vanishing if not for Kickstarter - major publishers turned their backs on point-and-click adventures and turn-based RPG's 10 years ago, if not longer. Yet good ones continued to get released without the aid of Kickstarter. I think that the argument that without Kickstarter all we have is Call of Duty is disingenuous at best.
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TiLT
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Re: [Kickstarter] Wasteland 2

Post by TiLT »

tgb wrote:As to niche genres vanishing if not for Kickstarter - major publishers turned their backs on point-and-click adventures and turn-based RPG's 10 years ago, if not longer. Yet good ones continued to get released without the aid of Kickstarter. I think that the argument that without Kickstarter all we have is Call of Duty is disingenuous at best.
I know you can find some point and click adventures from European developers, but where are those turn-based RPGs you're talking about? There's that sole guy who makes a series of these RPGs in a style that doesn't appeal to me at all, but that's really all I can think of. The last good turn-based RPG on PC that I can recall was Temple of Elemental Evil from 2003. That's 9 years ago! JRPGs don't count (they are a completely different genre), and handheld games aren't really the same thing, though they are better than nothing.
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