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Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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coopasonic wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:51 pm
stessier wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:49 pm Also, last night I realized that the miners have a light on them that is Green when mining, Yellow when stopped but still capable of mining (like if it's on a patch but the belt in front of it is full of ore), and Red when it's patch is mined out. Makes removing miners so much easier!!
I am trying not to laugh at the amount of time you have in the game without seeing that. It's impressive in a way.
I think it was added with 1.0, no? Still a lot of time, but not 900 hours. :)
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Is there a way to embed Steam screenshots rather than just providing links?

My current base.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... A00F27998/
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

Post by Unagi »

stessier wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:22 am Is there a way to embed Steam screenshots rather than just providing links?

My current base.

Image
just highlight that link here as an image.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

Post by Paingod »

That is a damned impressive "base" - but it's more of a "Nation" than a base.
stessier wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:57 pm
coopasonic wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:51 pm
stessier wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:49 pm Also, last night I realized that the miners have a light on them that is Green when mining, Yellow when stopped but still capable of mining (like if it's on a patch but the belt in front of it is full of ore), and Red when it's patch is mined out. Makes removing miners so much easier!!
I am trying not to laugh at the amount of time you have in the game without seeing that. It's impressive in a way.
I think it was added with 1.0, no? Still a lot of time, but not 900 hours. :)
I believe you're correct. Prior to 1.0 I'm 99% sure I had to visually check each to see if it was still processing out ore. The animation was the trigger to know when to replace them. If the animation was still playing, it was still producing. If the animation had stopped, check to see if it has materials to push out. Now it's a light, which is FAR better.

My much, much smaller base is going well. I've almost got my science production back to full swing. My first goal is to try and make 1 of each science item per second, or faster. I found, but am trying to avoid excessively using, a factory calculator when I went looking for a good Green:Red:Blue microchip ratio for production.

My new base layout earned me two new achievements: 1,000 blue chips per hour and 10,000 red chips per hour. Both have their own production lines aimed at making 1 per second. It's all rudimentary guesswork for the most part, except microchips, which I calculated. I'm trying to get everything to produce at least 1 unit per second, across the board. That quickly runs into issues with things that need like 10 blue chips for one unit, and I'm only making 1 blue chip per second - but it's a start at creating a massive process that I can keep feeding more space and more resources into.

The last thing I'm going to tackle, and am groaning over, is the lightweight materials factory. 20 copper plates for 1 unit is a huge "expense" and is why I just opened a second 6m copper mine and restructured my smelting process to accommodate more ore. These materials are produced slowly, 21s per unit I think. That means to me 21 factories being fed 420 copper plates per second. I'm currently thinking of simply routing every single last copper plate that makes it way through my other assembly lines to this setup. It gets fed last, after everything else gets a chance to grab one.

I focus on 1 per second but don't really know how much I need of anything until my factories start lurching to life and run continually - and my buffers start dropping. At the end of each line that warrants it, I have a passive provide chest.

Logistics? 1,100 bots strong right now and suffering no bottlenecks except production. I seem to have enough drones that they fly back and dock with the ports regularly between trips. I do have a dedicated factory for making them, which stops after it stores 100. I add them in chunks of 100. As I see locations with floods of drones or drones waiting to charge, I lay down a few Roboports to increase access. The researching of drone capacity makes a real staggering difference in how many fly across the skies at any given time.

I'm up to 1,600 solar panels+ as well. I still haven't laid down any nuclear energy production, but the time may be coming.

The very last thing I did last night was reboot research production with a stamp-able 4 science labs fed by 1 requester chest asking for 50 of every science pack. I think I stamped down 10 of these, for 40 labs that can look for 500 of each material. When I jump-started it, I did have roughly 2,000 of most materials in my buffer chests (passive providers at the end of each line, not real buffers).

I don't have Yellow science being made yet because of the Lightweight materials needs - the other items I need are in abundance, though. Now do I have white, but that's because I haven't researched it yet. Every other science item can theoretically be produced at a rate of 1 per second, though. Theoretically because I sincerely doubt the production line below them can handle that kind of throughput on a sustained basis. It's working as a burst only because of the massive overflow of goods I have stored from construction.

I had sworn to myself that I was going to set up independent factories for each major good I needed, but I didn't get that far. I still have one massive hub making everything, but it's far more productive than anything I've ever made. Each line of goods is split across (left to right, or right to left) the map without snaking around and about. I've run out of expansion space in many areas already... so my modular "independent base" theme may need to be reassessed.
stessier wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:48 am
Paingod wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:02 am I've got close to 300k in oil just sitting in storage tanks, so that angle is a lower priority. I'm planning, though, on making a liquids and gas processing facility - like my smelters. It'll pump out barrels of every useful fluid, and those barrels can be carried by logistics bots to precisely where I need them without dealing with pipes everywhere.
Let me know how this goes. I've never barreled anything and wonder if it is worth trying to set up.
This has gone pretty well. I don't have shortages, that's for certain. What I discovered (rather painfully) was that I needed to double the number of barrels I needed at each line. If one factory was set up to have a buffer that held 50 barrels, I needed to add 100 barrels to the logistics flow... because there was inevitably a stall somewhere that led to 50 barrels being stored with goods in them, and no empties available to fill the demand for empties at that facility - but other factories were producing empties, and those were being sent to the stalled factories, until eventually I had no empty barrels left for the lines that were still running. Looking at my total barrel need for production and simply doubling it solved the issue. I'm hesitant to add in a factory that simply produces empty barrels into the line automatically as this is one area where I don't want a factory to get stuffed so full of empties that have nowhere else to go that the factory can't keep producing. I think barrels work best as an "on demand" good that you add to the line when you set it up, as needed.
stessier wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:38 amMy building armor set has 6 exoskeleton legs which makes me faster than everything except trains.
I think, based on my timing of speed between points by counting seconds, that running with 6 exo-legs is about twice as fast as a tank and about as fast as a car, both using plain solid fuel. With the speed boost from rocket fuel or uranium, the car may come out ahead.

I sure as hell feel weirdly naked, though, when I go sprinting out across my open safe zone to attend to an issue. I feel much safer in the confines of my tank, especially when I'm heading to go repair a wall that was just hit.

A little amusement I made for myself was running a rail line out across the water for a substantial portion of its trip. The alternative was crossing three other lines. It was kind of fun to work out the minimum number of landfill tiles needed to support a 90º turn in two parallel tracks. It also looks kind of neat to just have rail lines running straight across a sea.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Unagi wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:38 pm
stessier wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:22 am Is there a way to embed Steam screenshots rather than just providing links?

My current base.
Spoiler:
Image
just highlight that link here as an image.
I swear I tried that and it only showed a broken link. Thanks!
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

Post by Paingod »

I was able to zoom in a little, but can't see any detail in terms of structures.

I like how you've created the massive perimeter around your base and enclosed a lot of resources. It makes my efforts seem quaint.

A question, though. What are those red blueprints? Can you take down specific structures and leave others with those? My red "destroy" print is blank. I've never looked at ways to use it aside from mass-disassembly.
stessier wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:49 pmI played more with the Spidertron today
For giggles I went off and tried to find what it costs to make one of these in terms of simple raw resources.

67,090 water
45,857 oil
28,165 copper
17,746 iron
1997 coal
1 fish

I'm guessing the fish drives the thing?
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:53 am I was able to zoom in a little, but can't see any detail in terms of structures.

I like how you've created the massive perimeter around your base and enclosed a lot of resources. It makes my efforts seem quaint.

A question, though. What are those red blueprints? Can you take down specific structures and leave others with those? My red "destroy" print is blank. I've never looked at ways to use it aside from mass-disassembly.
Yes. Drag a blank Red blueprint into your inventory. You can then right click on it and Whitelist or Blacklist things so it is as specific as you care to make it. The ones I have are for removing my laser installments (walls, lasers, lights, and light poles) while leaving the high tension wires behind. Then I have one that removes just trees. You can do the same thing with the Green upgrade print so you can specify what gets upgraded to what.

stessier wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:49 pmI played more with the Spidertron today
For giggles I went off and tried to find what it costs to make one of these in terms of simple raw resources.

67,090 water
45,857 oil
28,165 copper
17,746 iron
1997 coal
1 fish

I'm guessing the fish drives the thing?
Probably the guy firing the missiles when I'm not driving it. :)
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:35 am I focus on 1 per second but don't really know how much I need of anything until my factories start lurching to life and run continually - and my buffers start dropping. At the end of each line that warrants it, I have a passive provide chest.
One other thing - if you ever get to the point where you to massively increase your Science throughput, look up Car Science by KaterineOfSky on Youtube. How does 3000 science/second strike you? :) The method is applicable to many other systems besides science too.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

Post by Paingod »

stessier wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:43 pmHow does 3000 science/second strike you? :)
Like the step following an attempt at getting 1,000 science per second... :D

I've never once dabbled in nuclear reactors in this game. Looking over at the increasingly absurd solar panel field and contemplating tripling my steam engine array, it seems like it's getting close as I'm only working towards 1 per second and not 1,000 or 3,000.

To that end I did a little research.

Apparently you need to mine 10,000 ore to get 7 u235 and 993 u238 (approximate). You need 40 u235 to process it with 5 u238 and get 41 u235 and 2 u238. A fuel cell requires 1 u235 and 19 u238, and once spent 10 of them it can be converted back to 6 u238 (enough to process back into 2 u235).

It's an interestingly complex process. I had assumed you went off and mined the glowie, dumped the glowie into a bin, shook it up, and ran like hell before it exploded... harvesting the steam. What put me off of it was when I read that once started, the process couldn't be stopped. The fuel rod was going to be spent, even if you only used a fraction of it.

Knowing the energy potential in a fuel rod now explains why I see people spraying Speed Beacons all over their bases like crazy people. They have power to burn, and may as well burn it fast.

Apparently there's also "UPS" (updates per second) - basically the game's refresh rate. The target the game shoots for is 60. If your factory grows too large and meandering, your computer will start choking on it and slow down the game. By committing to smaller numbers of extremely powerful factories, you can extend your UPS and get more cycles going before you cook your CPU.

It amuses me when a game may actually run into physical limitations on my hardware... and not because I'm running an old computer, but rather because I've built something so large that it becomes painful to calculate.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:02 pm
stessier wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:43 pmHow does 3000 science/second strike you? :)
Like the step following an attempt at getting 1,000 science per second... :D

I've never once dabbled in nuclear reactors in this game. Looking over at the increasingly absurd solar panel field and contemplating tripling my steam engine array, it seems like it's getting close as I'm only working towards 1 per second and not 1,000 or 3,000.

To that end I did a little research.

Apparently you need to mine 10,000 ore to get 7 u235 and 993 u238 (approximate). You need 40 u235 to process it with 5 u238 and get 41 u235 and 2 u238. A fuel cell requires 1 u235 and 19 u238, and once spent 10 of them it can be converted back to 6 u238 (enough to process back into 2 u235).

It's an interestingly complex process. I had assumed you went off and mined the glowie, dumped the glowie into a bin, shook it up, and ran like hell before it exploded... harvesting the steam.
This sounds much worse than it actually is. I don't start my nuclear build until I also have the Kovarex Enrichment process you outline in the second sentence. Once you have the necessary items to kick it off, you end up swimming in all the components in relatively short order. I only use nuclear fuel and nuclear bullets for everything because there is such a large excess of materials. Right now I only have 20 Centrifuges processing the raw ore. I have 6 doing Kovarex Enrichment (and they rarely run). I have 4 doing fuel cell reprocessing (and they rarely run as well). I've only been mining a single patch of the raw ore as well. I think this has been going on for well over 100 hours (to be clear, I only make the bullet and fuel I need, so I turn off all ore processing when I don't need it).

The power is great though. And through the use of steam tanks, capacitors, and switches controlling how you feed the reactors, you can min/max your way to efficiency. Given how little ore it uses, though, I never bother. :) The Sulferic Acid needed to do the mining is actually my biggest challenge at the moment.
Apparently there's also "UPS" (updates per second) - basically the game's refresh rate. The target the game shoots for is 60. If your factory grows too large and meandering, your computer will start choking on it and slow down the game. By committing to smaller numbers of extremely powerful factories, you can extend your UPS and get more cycles going before you cook your CPU.

It amuses me when a game may actually run into physical limitations on my hardware... and not because I'm running an old computer, but rather because I've built something so large that it becomes painful to calculate.
My computer is from 2015 and I'm wondering when I'm going to hit the wall. There have been a number of times where I've started attacking a biter base and none of the biters move - and then some seconds later they kick in. That's the only thing I've seen so far.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:43 pmI don't start my nuclear build until I also have the Kovarex Enrichment process you outline in the second sentence. Once you have the necessary items to kick it off, you end up swimming in all the components in relatively short order.
My factory chugged into this knowledge last night, but it took a LONG time to come up with the 1,500 science needed. The hitch was my absurd insistence on having 50 of each tier 3 factory module on hand. I set up 3 assembly lines for them, one Tier 3 factory for each (being fed by 4 Tier 2 fabs making L2 modules, which in turn were fed by 2 tier 2 fabs producing tier 1 mods), and by the end of the night I had maybe 35 of each type. I completely gutted my overstock of red microchips in short order, exposing a serious shortfall.

Instead of fixing it, though, I donned my newly minted combat suit and climbed into my tank to expand my boundaries since pollution was leaking over my existing walls and I was getting increasingly attacked at some points along my border. The combat suit has two fusion reactors, night vision, a single Roboport Mk2, 1 exo legs, 1 Mk2 Shield, and is stuffed with 8 PD lasers. I can almost drive right through thick swarms without slowing down. It's the spitters that get me, if anything does. Thank you for the concept of a "Building Suit" and a "Combat Suit" ... it's a beautiful thing.

I figured the T3 modules would eventually fill up and I'd be back to bursting with microchips in short order.

I also discovered a flaw in my oil refinery setup, where I was producing far more heavy oil than the other materials and rebalanced it by splitting it into light oil with three more chemical labs. This correction let the oils flow again. The error had gone on long enough that I had run dry of hydrochloric acid - where I had been keeping 200k stored I had none. It was the stalled blue chip processing that led me to the issue.

Tonight's priorities:
  1. Expand my walls, including more laser turrets.
  2. Double or triple my steam generator power supply. I've just about given up on Solar Panels.
  3. Rebuild my smelting processes now that I can use Beacons properly and have some T3 modules on hand.
  4. Explore Uranium mining.
At some point I'm going to quit my experimental inefficiency and go to a calculator to create a more ideal flow of goods instead of trying to simply ensure a consistent excess. Excess has never bothered me. Not until it turns out it's not really excess but simply underutilized.

I've also been eyeing a more formal "hub" setup like I've seen in some bases. My base design has been a split hub, though I didn't know what it was called when I built it, nor did I have a template I was following. On my right side of my base, iron, steel, and stone come in. On the left side fluids and copper. I ran belts from each side towards the middle area and built up factories in there. It's already become too confining for much more growth because I'm bumping into my own "walls" of incoming goods. The hub ribbons of goods not only look really attractive, but they're remarkably efficient and allow for continued expansion outside each branch.

The alternative seems to be to go with a more train-based modular construction, which I wanted to do before but was still daunted by. I suppose this is the end-end-end game after making a more efficient central hub. The hub gets bogged down so you break it up again into more specialized parts feeding each other with rail lines.

I'm also doing a dummy head-slap at my own insistence on transporting solid fuels in a single slot on trains leaving my manufacturing hub. Train engines can carry 2 stacks of 50. As long as I only pull one stack for each stop they may refuel, I'll always top off when they return. I don't need to stick fuel in the cargo slots and fiddle with filter inserters for that car. :doh:

I think fluids production will be the first thing in my game that drives me to learn how to use switches and circuits. I don't like how it needs to be perfectly balanced or it slugs to a stop. Last night it was Heavy Oil that did me in, because I had filled up my Lubricant stores to capacity. Once that happened my refineries simply stopped dead, unable to send out more product. I need to see if I can set up an automatic toggle - so when I exceed 80% Lubricant stores it stops making it and shifts to splitting heavy oil and creating more Light Oil for gas or fuel production, then switches back to Lubricant when the stores hit 50%. I don't even know if I can, but I assume it's possible.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:00 am I think fluids production will be the first thing in my game that drives me to learn how to use switches and circuits. I don't like how it needs to be perfectly balanced or it slugs to a stop. Last night it was Heavy Oil that did me in, because I had filled up my Lubricant stores to capacity. Once that happened my refineries simply stopped dead, unable to send out more product. I need to see if I can set up an automatic toggle - so when I exceed 80% Lubricant stores it stops making it and shifts to splitting heavy oil and creating more Light Oil for gas or fuel production, then switches back to Lubricant when the stores hit 50%. I don't even know if I can, but I assume it's possible.
It is possible and I do the same for both Heavy and Light Oil. Let us know if you get stuck and we can give you as much detail as you want (since half the fun is figuring stuff out for yourself...to the point right before frustration sets in).
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:28 amIt is possible and I do the same for both Heavy and Light Oil. Let us know if you get stuck and we can give you as much detail as you want (since half the fun is figuring stuff out for yourself...to the point right before frustration sets in).
That's good to know. I'll give it a whirl once I get my walls in place and am not seeping poison fumes out to encourage hostiles to attack me.

This game has a firm grip on my mind like it's never had before. I keep having many thoughts of rebuilding and reorganizing. As I free up more land, I'm seeing places where I can run trains and set up foundries and factories.

I feel greedy in my land-grabbing. I'd get to a point where I'd think "I could build a wall here and section this off," and instead I move on with "but why stop there, and not ahead where that iron ore is?"

I also had a question about blueprinting and it's been answered. I could swear I've seen people build right through a grove of trees. Apparently, Shift-Click will force a build, even removing whatever's in the way? I've been deconstructing/blueprint building this whole time. This should speed up my process substantially.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:34 am
stessier wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:28 amIt is possible and I do the same for both Heavy and Light Oil. Let us know if you get stuck and we can give you as much detail as you want (since half the fun is figuring stuff out for yourself...to the point right before frustration sets in).
That's good to know. I'll give it a whirl once I get my walls in place and am not seeping poison fumes out to encourage hostiles to attack me.
I find that to be a fun past time. Build the plant a bit, hit a spot where I'm not quite sure how to proceed, then spend time killing Biters until inspiration hits. :) Also, you mentioned ditching solar panels for steam boilers. Boilers produce the most pollution in the game (1 boiler is as much pollution as 30 electric furnaces). It's not a problem, just something to be aware of.
This game has a firm grip on my mind like it's never had before. I keep having many thoughts of rebuilding and reorganizing. As I free up more land, I'm seeing places where I can run trains and set up foundries and factories.

I feel greedy in my land-grabbing. I'd get to a point where I'd think "I could build a wall here and section this off," and instead I move on with "but why stop there, and not ahead where that iron ore is?"
I've thought that a few times as well, but I've never been sad over the long run that I tried a bit harder to push out the walls a bit further. It usually means I have to expand my rail lines to be sure I can get out there if there is a breakdown in the defense (or I have set up automatic wall repair), but otherwise there are no regrets.

I also had a question about blueprinting and it's been answered. I could swear I've seen people build right through a grove of trees. Apparently, Shift-Click will force a build, even removing whatever's in the way? I've been deconstructing/blueprint building this whole time. This should speed up my process substantially.
Yes, shift click is the way to go! It will remove anything natural, but nothing you've constructed (so if you have, say, a light in the way, it won't remove and build over the light). When building rail lines, you can extend past the apparent limit (I think 10 or 20 sections) by holding down shift as well and create all sorts of loops and things.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Showing off some parts of my base. You can click on images to make them bigger.

Main Base - Blue Science & All Other Science & Module Production
Spoiler:
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Refining Area - Oil Drop Off & Refining
Spoiler:
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Main Base Rail Depot - Entry Area & Unload Area
Spoiler:
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Nuclear Area - 2 different Reactor Layouts & Mining Area
Spoiler:
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Mining Area
Spoiler:
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Smelting Area - Entry Area & Smelting Line
Spoiler:
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:59 amShowing off some parts of my base. You can click on images to make them bigger.
That is a lot of work, and quite impressive. I'm glad to know that at least my mining configuration can be used in the end-game. :lol:

I have a lot of work ahead of me to come anywhere close to that. With all the land I opened up last night I'm considering starting manufacturing hubs, without tearing down the old centralized one. I'd just dedicate large parts of it to making Tier 3 Assemblers and Belts and stop researching for a while.

My land grab went well, but was time intensive. I also discovered that I managed to wall in a Biter hive that spread before I noticed it (the alert was them munching on my mining ops in the middle of my territory). It took a while to figure out where they were coming from. Apparently a group moved into an area just after I cleared it. That's what I get for not doing an incremental expansion, I suppose, and going for a doubling of my existing land. I had massive tracts of land wide open on three fronts for a long time and then simply built up a new wall to enclose them. I'm running a total of 666 laser turrets, evenly spaced on my outer walls, which is a totally coincidental number.

I now have approximately 10m Uranium ore walled inside my safe zone for future use. I stopped last night just before setting up an operation to start harvesting it. I didn't accomplish much else aside from acquiring more research and clearing land.

I really like your fluted rail entrances for supply drops. It looks like a great way to ensure no train blocks another while it's waiting to unload. I also note you seem to almost exclusively use 1 engine to 8 cargo boxes in your trains. Is there a substantial benefit to that over a 1x4 or 2x8, or does the speed of the trains just not matter that much when they have so much to drop off?
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:10 am My land grab went well, but was time intensive. I also discovered that I managed to wall in a Biter hive that spread before I noticed it (the alert was them munching on my mining ops in the middle of my territory). It took a while to figure out where they were coming from. Apparently a group moved into an area just after I cleared it. That's what I get for not doing an incremental expansion, I suppose, and going for a doubling of my existing land. I had massive tracts of land wide open on three fronts for a long time and then simply built up a new wall to enclose them. I'm running a total of 666 laser turrets, evenly spaced on my outer walls, which is a totally coincidental number.

I now have approximately 10m Uranium ore walled inside my safe zone for future use. I stopped last night just before setting up an operation to start harvesting it. I didn't accomplish much else aside from acquiring more research and clearing land.
That's not nothing, though. Feeling safe let's you focus on building rather than multitasking between building and defense.
I really like your fluted rail entrances for supply drops. It looks like a great way to ensure no train blocks another while it's waiting to unload. I also note you seem to almost exclusively use 1 engine to 8 cargo boxes in your trains. Is there a substantial benefit to that over a 1x4 or 2x8, or does the speed of the trains just not matter that much when they have so much to drop off?
The nice part about the flute design is you don't have to specify which train goes where. Just have enough space, and any train can choose any line to wait on until it's final destination opens up.

I've never looked at running with 2 engines to pull my trains. I'm not that time sensitive, I guess.

Early on, I run with trains less than 8 cars, but I try to get up to 8 cars asap. A 4 car train seems to get exhausted too quickly while trains longer than 8 cars are hard to fill up in a reasonable time at the mines (at least for the default ore patches I've run across). Kind of a sweet spot for me, I guess, but YMMV. The only exceptions are my Nuclear Fuel trains - 1 runs to all my distant sites providing fuel rods, the other runs back and forth from my Uranium Patch providing raw materials. Neither runs often or needs much space.

Speaking of not running often, did you know you can turn train stations On and Off (or Open and Close)? You can also give multiple stations the same name so trains can pick whichever one they want. The latest Developer's Blog said they are improving this functionality in a patch (that will hopefully be released soon) to prevent the situation where all the trains choose the same station leading to a traffic jam. Trains are so cool! :)
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:44 amYou can also give multiple stations the same name so trains can pick whichever one they want. The latest Developer's Blog said they are improving this functionality in a patch (that will hopefully be released soon) to prevent the situation where all the trains choose the same station leading to a traffic jam. Trains are so cool! :)
I wasn't sure about the naming thing but had read it in the official forum where I discovered them talking about trains in the next patch. It looks like the solution will be to allow players to simply limit the number of trains that might opt to wait at a station, say to 2, so when a train looks for a destination, they queue up at another one instead.

Honestly, though, I plan to run each train line configured independently. Trains and solid fuel don't feel like a crazy resource to manage and I don't mind having a lot of trains on their own set schedules and routes I build for them. That may mean I end up with 12 "flutes" to unload raw ores, and that's okay with me as long as the smelters are working overtime.

My feelings on that may change if my needs for materials got too great, though.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:03 am
stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:44 amYou can also give multiple stations the same name so trains can pick whichever one they want. The latest Developer's Blog said they are improving this functionality in a patch (that will hopefully be released soon) to prevent the situation where all the trains choose the same station leading to a traffic jam. Trains are so cool! :)
I wasn't sure about the naming thing but had read it in the official forum where I discovered them talking about trains in the next patch. It looks like the solution will be to allow players to simply limit the number of trains that might opt to wait at a station, say to 2, so when a train looks for a destination, they queue up at another one instead.

Honestly, though, I plan to run each train line configured independently. Trains and solid fuel don't feel like a crazy resource to manage and I don't mind having a lot of trains on their own set schedules and routes I build for them. That may mean I end up with 12 "flutes" to unload raw ores, and that's okay with me as long as the smelters are working overtime.

My feelings on that may change if my needs for materials got too great, though.
That works fine when you only have one Smelter - what happens when you expand to two like I have? Do you really want to micromanage trains split between the two coming from multiple ore patches? I just put mine in parallel, give the ore drop off the same name at each station and let the trains choose whichever one is open.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:14 amDo you really want to micromanage trains split between the two coming from multiple ore patches? I just put mine in parallel, give the ore drop off the same name at each station and let the trains choose whichever one is open.
I'd probably try, using a naming convention to track it - like Iron Mine A1, A2 ... Iron Mine B1, B2 - feeding into Smelter A and Smelter B. I'm weird like that. I may change my mind, though. I haven't gotten close enough to that level of chaos yet to know for sure.

There's a lot I've yet to really explore, despite feeling like I've come a substantial way into the game.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Ugh - naming conventions! I have yet to come up with anything I like. So annoying. :)
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:09 am Ugh - naming conventions! I have yet to come up with anything I like. So annoying. :)
Base - [item=iron-plate] Iron Drop Off
Outpost - [fluid=crude-oil] Oil Pick Up 1
Refinery - [item=plastic-bar] Plastic Pick Up


Works for me, at least.

I like putting the location in front, as that's how things are organized in the list. I want all the base drop-off stuff at the top of the list (or at least together) which keeps things logically organized.

I will have a Refinery - [item=rocket-fuel] Rocket Fuel Pick Up (for my refueling train) and multiple stations named Outpost - [item=rocket-fuel] Fuel Drop Off so that my refueling train can decide where to dole out its items. I don't tend to specify which outpost train should go with which smeltery (well, I don't have to do that, as I do on-site smelting once I'm into the game sufficiently) as that's why I've got stackers in front of my drop off and pick up locations. The green circuit train can decide if it's going to red circuits or blue circuits all on its own.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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The Meal wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:19 pm
stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:09 am Ugh - naming conventions! I have yet to come up with anything I like. So annoying. :)
Base - [item=iron-plate] Iron Drop Off
Outpost - [fluid=crude-oil] Oil Pick Up 1
Refinery - [item=plastic-bar] Plastic Pick Up


Works for me, at least.
My problem with that is that 1 could be on the eastern border while 2 is on the western border. I like being able to look at a train and generally know which direction it's headed. I tried N/S/E/W, but it was unwieldy as my reference point changed as I tore down and rebuilt my base. This time I'm naming areas after football players. It's okay and at least makes me smile when looking at the map.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Yeah, naming outposts after some reference in your life that conjures non-game related characteristics is pretty viable. Emotional attachment is the key. Using NSEW or terrain features doesn't end up working out for me either.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:35 pmIt's okay and at least makes me smile when looking at the map.
:think:

I may need to start delivering oil to Morty and making Microchips at Rick, then.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:45 pm
stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:35 pmIt's okay and at least makes me smile when looking at the map.
:think:

I may need to start delivering oil to Morty and making Microchips at Rick, then.
My copper train starts at Newton 1 and goes to Patriots Smelter 2. My coal train makes a loop from Edleman 5 to Grand Central - Coal Drop Off (the main base train station) then to Ninkovich - Plastic Drop Off. My oil trains start somewhere in Texas (1-5) and end up in Central Oil Processing.

I'm easily amused.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:51 pmI'm easily amused.
It's a good game for that. Endless ways to amuse oneself, it seems.

Last night I didn't get much done, but it took time. I discovered two more hives deep inside my safe zone and eliminated them. I quickly set up an explosives line and made a couple hundred cliff-bombs. Then I ripped up all of my solar panels and emptied my production of them, relocating all of it to become part of the patterned battlements of my laser walls and freeing up a wide swath of land in the middle of my territory, while cleaning up the wall so it wasn't obstructed by cliffs. I wandered through my base and shut down the science production for the time being, ripping up the factories and assembly lines. My intent now is to focus on making structures and modules for further expansion before trying to get the yellow and white science lines going. I want to make a more formal hub and make it more decorative. To that end I started setting up a reinforced concrete factory where I had both stone and iron near water (there's enough stone to make maybe 900,000 floor tiles). That's where I left off, but because I was getting tired I was also getting sloppy and expect I'll need to go back and redo some of that. I was also getting brain dead as I wasn't using Copy/Paste or my own Blueprints for things.

Do biter nests ever simply spawn in the middle of a wide open area, or was I really so unlucky that so many slipped through while I was expanding?
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:52 am Do biter nests ever simply spawn in the middle of a wide open area, or was I really so unlucky that so many slipped through while I was expanding?
They can't randomly spawn inside your area. Biters have to walk to set up a new nest. But if you miss one inside, it will continue to grow and spread.

If you zoom in on this image I posted a while back, you can see a nest on the edge of the lake in the southeast corner just north of the two coal deposits. I didn't see that for an hour - maybe two. When I finally got over there to work on it, there were 20 little colonies I had to knock down - had spread pretty much through that entire block.

Enlarge Image

When you are expanding, are you installing radars around the areas? They help me prevent small infestations from getting too big before I find them.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:36 amWhen you are expanding, are you installing radars around the areas? They help me prevent small infestations from getting too big before I find them.
I haven't done that, no. I probably should. I should probably litter my whole area with radar stations. As it stands I don't have a single one running right now. The 7 or 8 I had made are in storage. It seemed pointless once I had my barriers up.

With the infestations possibly lurking within my walls I should probably deploy them and many more.

I think that today I'm going to physically sketch a little plan for how I want to actually build my base. It's clear that my "opposing hubs on either side of production" is too limiting, and I want to revisit my overblown rail concept with minibases all producing different types of materials and sending them down the line to a final production line. I suppose this comes close to a City Block theme, but I don't want city blocks - at least not yet. I want it to feel a little more organic.

The goods I'd be making would be anything that's not a finished product but takes some relative resource-intensiveness - engines, electric engines, plastics, microchips, science pack goods (flight frames, lightweight materials, etc). Things like pipes, gears, wire, and rods would all be made at whichever locale needs them. It seems pointless to shuttle those around.

I'm going to need more mines and bigger smelters.

Last night, knowing I was on the verge of another rebuild, I was so disinterested in trying to jury-rig something into my existing base that when I needed coal to make explosives, I just jammed up a few Roboports to form a chain to the coal mine and called it good enough, letting my 1200 logistics bots deal with it. I want to do better than that. I honestly feel like Logistics bots should be a rare sight across my skies, not a constant hive of activity. I want belts and rail lines to handle almost everything. If I can.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Paingod wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:59 am
stessier wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:36 amWhen you are expanding, are you installing radars around the areas? They help me prevent small infestations from getting too big before I find them.
I haven't done that, no. I probably should. I should probably litter my whole area with radar stations. As it stands I don't have a single one running right now. The 7 or 8 I had made are in storage. It seemed pointless once I had my barriers up.

With the infestations possibly lurking within my walls I should probably deploy them and many more.
I guess everyone does it differently, but I have full radar coverage of all my walls, my main base, and any mining or production operation area. This allows me to go to the map overview and zoom in on any area to see what is happening. Without the radars, you can't see when a biter gets past your walls or what needs fixing. You also won't be able to click on a train somewhere and bring it to you or send it somewhere else.

Basically, radars make my world go round. :)
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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stessier wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:48 amYou also won't be able to click on a train somewhere and bring it to you or send it somewhere else.

Basically, radars make my world go round. :)
I had no idea. I assumed they just put red dots on my screen. Once I locked all the red dots out, I didn't need them. :P

*Edit: From the wiki:
Radars grant sight of a square area around them, which is displayed brighter than the rest of the map. This allows the player to zoom into the normal world view from the map and makes interaction with blueprints and deconstruction planners possible.
I'm just gonna say :shock:

So you're telling me I can stand in one spot and use logistics and construction bots to expand my base without running my ass off? This changes my build concept (again). Now I want to slap together a base that produces buildings at a rapid clip and start shooting off drones to expand my territory from a satellite view.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Yeah, radars are that good.

Also, artillery shells (which contain radars as part of the recipe), work as temporary sights as they fly over the terrain. And artillery cannons (either train-mounted, or my preference, ground based) have an auto-target radius (which is much smaller than your manual-target radius), that does a very satisfying job on the natives. Just be sure your walls (assuming the bases are on the outside) are ready for the counter-attack.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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WAR TRAINS!

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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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The Meal wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:58 pm Yeah, radars are that good.

Also, artillery shells (which contain radars as part of the recipe), work as temporary sights as they fly over the terrain. And artillery cannons (either train-mounted, or my preference, ground based) have an auto-target radius (which is much smaller than your manual-target radius), that does a very satisfying job on the natives. Just be sure your walls (assuming the bases are on the outside) are ready for the counter-attack.
Yes - don't use shells unless you are ready! This is a picture of my standard wall defense vs. my wall defense where I have cannons lobbing shells.
Spoiler:
Enlarge Image
Enlarge Image
Also, the other benefit of a Spidertron is that it has a built in radar. You can use its remote control to go and build stuff anywhere.

Finally, a count (and power consumption) of a few of my favorite things. It was good I checked on this - I'm working on expanding my Red Circuit production and apparently when everything was running, I was running above 100% of my available power. It only happened rarely as I still have to expand my plastic production to allow more than fits and starts, so I was lucky to see it when I did.
Spoiler:
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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The Meal wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:58 pmJust be sure your walls (assuming the bases are on the outside) are ready for the counter-attack.
I have yet to unlock Artillery. I halted all science and expansion once I finished every project that requires Purple science. I was daunted by Yellow science's hunger for copper plating and needed to create a new staging area for that, but got wholly distracted by base expansion. I'm looking forward to Artillery, but I'm not in a rush yet.
stessier wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:24 am This is a picture of my standard wall defense vs. my wall defense where I have cannons lobbing shells.
Spoiler:
Enlarge Image
Enlarge Image
Your standard wall defense is triple the strength of my own. I've been running a single tower up to the wall and then using Medium poles to run power along the wall. The power coverage is touching side to side (not a 2-space gap) and in that spot I've got a single laser turret that straddles the intersection. Repeat across the whole length of the wall.

This thin line of turrets has kept me safe, but I'm also not under attack by anything except expansion groups. There are no determined assaults to break down my walls. In places where I feel threatened, I pack in the turrets three deep, side by side, in a block of death.
stessier wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:24 amFinally, a count (and power consumption) of a few of my favorite things.
Spoiler:
Enlarge Image
/eye twitch

I've got a lot of work ahead of me. I really need to redesign my base with infinite expansion in mind, no more walling myself in with belts on either side of a line. Belts on one side only, and open air on the other for continued growth. Colorful ribbons, here I come.

Last night I was excited to discover the mass-upgrade "greenprint". Having unlocked Tier 3 (blue) belts, I wanted to start deploying them. I was not excited, however, at the prospect of either upgrading my blueprints and trying to match them or creating new blueprints to upgrade. Instead a little Google search told me I could hit the green button to create an upgrade plan, which allowed me to set up a Yellow > Red > Blue conversion for every belt, splitter, and tunnel in my factory at once. Yay! Then I applied the same thing for factories so everything would end up T3.

I watched for a while as my base reformed itself into something faster and left it to its own devices to plan out a highway and new train lines for my next expansion push. My new dedicated concrete fab did well for me, allowing me to lay down a 6 tile-wide road (4 plain flanked by two caution) that spanned across my entire base from the Eastern wall to the Western wall. Now I'm going to pick a center point and go North to South. Once I've got my center point done, I'm going to try and start building out production lines with railways running parallel to my highway in different directions.

While working on my highway I discovered my two oil fields had run dry, with each pump producing 2/s. I stuffed in a few T3 Speed mods and got them all up to 2.4/s and need to go lay down a couple new fields.

Knowing now how Radar works, too, I'm planning to try and create a mass-expansion blueprint that lays down big power poles and Roboports at regular intervals across a space that creates a chunk of space that's always observed, and then duplicate that side-by-side across my whole base so I can see everything, walk anywhere I want, and build somewhat remotely. I'm not too worried about Logistics coverage for the entire base, though. Just Construction. My factories churning out factories is going well and I'd like to put it to use.

If I had been drinking milk, it would have shot out of my nose when I saw what this guy did. I was solar-obsessed, but he's got me beat.
Spoiler:
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Be sure your power's ready for a massive RADAR expansion. In addition to being pollution point-sources, they're very power hungry.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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Biters will also seek them out and destroy them. You can string electric poles all over the place, and in most cases, the biters ignore them. Stick an unprotected radar anywhere, and the biters will be drawn to it and kill it in short order.

Edit: Which, now that I re-read Meal's response, is already clear when he said they are point pollution sources. :doh: :D
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

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The Meal wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:41 am Be sure your power's ready for a massive RADAR expansion. In addition to being pollution point-sources, they're very power hungry.
My border wall and the array of solar/accumulators I'm installing should cover it. I'm planning on making a nuclear reactor one of the first things I put up when I restructure. It won't do me much good to expand without power.
stessier wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:46 amBiters will also seek them out and destroy them. You can string electric poles all over the place, and in most cases, the biters ignore them. Stick an unprotected radar anywhere, and the biters will be drawn to it and kill it in short order.
Do they storm it like a source of pollution, or just in casual passing - like it's a target if they're already attacking? I was going to install them along my border, but it sounds like I'd also need to beef up my turret arrays.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

Post by stessier »

Paingod wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:55 am Do they storm it like a source of pollution, or just in casual passing - like it's a target if they're already attacking? I was going to install them along my border, but it sounds like I'd also need to beef up my turret arrays.
This is from the wiki:
The radar triggers charting of the map of the force it belongs to.

It can be used to provide a small area of remote vision on the map; it also allows periodic scanning of distant chunks around it. The Radar has a high power demand (300kW) so a radar indirectly contributes to pollution when powered by boilers and steam engines. A radar can be continuously powered by eight solar panels and six accumulators. Seven solar panels and five accumulators is the most efficient; it gives the radar full power all but a short time in the morning, but never dips below the 20% power threshold for nearby scanning.

The radar will be attacked by enemies that come within very close range, like turrets, due to its status as a military building, but will not attract biters from long range like polluting structures do. The radar will show enemy lifeforms and structures, as well as trains, cars, and other players in the scanned area.
"Very close range", in my experience, is still a fair distance considering how close you have to place them if you want full coverage.

There's a lot of good info and pictures/examples at that link.
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Re: Factorio, highly addictive game(alpha)

Post by Paingod »

stessier wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:30 am
The radar will be attacked by enemies that come within very close range, like turrets, due to its status as a military building, but will not attract biters from long range like polluting structures do. The radar will show enemy lifeforms and structures, as well as trains, cars, and other players in the scanned area.
"Very close range", in my experience, is still a fair distance considering how close you have to place them if you want full coverage.

There's a lot of good info and pictures/examples at that link.
Okay. That does help - thank you. I was intending to install them back behind my solar panels at regular intervals. I don't need them giving full, constant view outside the walls but scanning beyond them, certainly.

I was mostly concerned that being "remotely viewed" during a scan would prompt an assault and I'd be constantly attacked.

As I've reached a point where hodge-podge randomness has become a burden instead of a feature, I was looking into a factory calculator.

I like the drastic shift in raw materials, power, and space needed based on your module config. I'm guessing the mods equate to:

Green: I have abundant land and resources, am nowhere near the UPS cap, and I'm still using Solar Panels. Eco-Warrior!
Red: I have HUGE tracts of land, need to stretch resources, and the UPS cap is an eternity away. Go nuclear or go home!
Blue: I have resources and power coming out of every orifice, and I'm planning to see if I can reach the UPS cap. FACTORIES GO BRRRRRRRRRR!

I think my first redesign is going to be an even mix of Red and Blue mods with no Green.
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