[Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

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TiLT
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[Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by TiLT »

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This Kickstarter, which launched yesterday and is already fully funded, seems to be getting some traction in the games media, and for good reason.

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It's a rogue-like with a very nice artstyle that seems heavily influenced by Mike Mignolia (of Hellboy fame), where the twist isn't that you'll eventually die (you will), but that your party consists of people with individual personalities, quirks and outright insanities that develop and change based on what they're going through. What do you do if one of your characters keeps mumbling about how you're all going to die, bringing the morale of the party down? What do you do when you wake up after sleeping, only to find that your fighter has eaten the entire party's rations during the night because of an irrational fear of hunger? Should you really bring along that character with a phobia against undead when you're raiding a crypt?

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From the description on the Kickstarter page:
Uncompromising, unforgiving, and unconventional, we present a fresh take on the dungeon crawler that elevates the importance of sound tactics and a character's mental state over their gear.

You will recruit, train, and lead a team of flawed heroes through twisted forests, forgotten warrens, ruined crypts and beyond. You'll battle not only unimaginable foes, but stress, famine, disease, and the ever-encroaching dark. Uncover strange mysteries, and pit the heroes against an array of fearsome monsters with an innovative strategic turn-based combat system.

You will have to tend to characters’ spirits as much as you do to their Hit Points. But in these grim situations, you'll find opportunities for true heroism!

Darkest Dungeon is not a game where every hero wins the day with shiny armor and a smile. It is a game about hard trade-offs, nearly certain demise, and heroic reversals.

Do you have what it takes to survive in the forgotten corners of the Darkest Dungeon?
Features:
  • The Affliction System – heroes' personalities are paramount! Contend with paranoia, abusiveness, fear, irrationality, and a host of gameplay-meaningful quirks
  • Striking hand-drawn gothic crowquill art style
  • Innovative turn-based combat pits you against a host of diabolical monsters
  • Classic CRPG and roguelike features, including meaningful permadeath, procedural dungeons, and incredible replay
  • A distinctive game world featuring over a dozen unique playable character classes such as the Plague Doctor, the Highwayman, and even the Leper!
  • Town meta-game – tend to your heroes wounds, both corporeal and cerebral
  • Loot! Gold, jewels, heirlooms, and mystical trinkets. Not to mention upgradable armor, weapons, and consumable supplies.
  • Things That Once Seen Can Never Be Unseen...
The estimated release date is the beginning of 2015.

I'm in at the Adventurer level. :)
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Baroquen »

You do a better selling job than the KS page, TiLT. :D

Yeah, this one looks interesting. I'll probably get the game, but since it's already funded, and I don't usually spring for the "extras", I might just wait until release. But definitely intriguing.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by ColdSteel »

I think this looks great and will be following it closely. For those wondering why they are asking for so little in their kickstarter:
We have already substantially invested in Darkest Dungeon. We believe in the game and are putting our own money where are mouths are. We've gone without pay for 9 months of full-time development so far, and covered out-of-pocket costs ourselves.
I guess this certainly means that they are passionate about their game and believe in it. And there are always those that like seeing an artist suffer for their work. I do hope the kickstarter earns enough for them to get paid though.
Finally, if we raise *a lot* more than our goal, then we'd be in a position to pay ourselves a living allowance during development, vastly improving our quality of life, and reducing our party's stress levels significantly!
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by ColdSteel »

Also, watch this!

This is my kind of game.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Sepiche »

I was going to post about this today as well if no one else did. Looks like a really cool, stylish take on a rogue-like. Backed and now settling in for the long wait. :P
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Kelric »

Not backing it, but I'll keep posting on OO until 2015 to find out if it ever gets released.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by TheMix »

Did I see Cthulhu in the part about rituals?

Hmmm...

Definitely looks interesting. Though, like others, I'll probably just watch and see.

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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

Looks fun, but I'll never ever back a Kickstarter, or pay for Beta, or pay for Early Access.

That said, tell me when it's finished/when there are reviews. I'm all for old-school gaming and I think there needs to be more niche games on the market.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by TiLT »

Lagom Lite wrote:and I think there needs to be more niche games on the market.
Then do your part! Seriously, these games aren't funded out of a vacuum. If people like you and me don't help in the crowdfunding process, niche games like these will never be made. It's that simple. Sitting at the sidelines and waiting for everything to be finished before making a purchasing decision is fine for games you are highly skeptical about, or games which have solid investor backing (such as traditional AAA games). But for games that haven't got investors to help them out, our help is all they'll get.

If you want to see games like this being made, you need to step up and help. Saying that you'll never back a Kickstarter means that you don't really care about niche gaming and would rather have an industry that is dominated by safe AAA games with no personality. You say you're all for old-school gaming? Well, then you should put your money where your mouth is.

Edit: Btw, how is this game "old-school"? It seems pretty modern to me, in everything from its gameplay to its visuals.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

TiLT wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:and I think there needs to be more niche games on the market.
Then do your part! Seriously, these games aren't funded out of a vacuum. If people like you and me don't help in the crowdfunding process, niche games like these will never be made. It's that simple. Sitting at the sidelines and waiting for everything to be finished before making a purchasing decision is fine for games you are highly skeptical about, or games which have solid investor backing (such as traditional AAA games). But for games that haven't got investors to help them out, our help is all they'll get.

If you want to see games like this being made, you need to step up and help. Saying that you'll never back a Kickstarter means that you don't really care about niche gaming and would rather have an industry that is dominated by safe AAA games with no personality. You say you're all for old-school gaming? Well, then you should put your money where your mouth is.
I will, once they release it. Not before.

I completely disagree with your arguments, and I'll explain why: Paying for unfinished products, such as Kickstarters, sets a bad precedent for consumers of digital gaming.

Now, I get the argument that small developers may have trouble funding their enterprise. But guess what? That's what investors are for. You go and find funding. The investor takes the risk, and if the product is shit the investor takes the loss. Asking for the consumer to invest is completely backwards.

That's saying nothing about problem with consumer legislation such as how you go about getting a refund if you're unhappy with the game or the developer turns out to be a scammer, or what it does to the incentive developers should have to actually finish their product - why bother if you've already sold the thing to your target demographic. Just keep it in Early Access indefinitely.

You're asking me to buy a product based on faith in the developer - faith, apparently, that they have a hard time finding from proper investors. This is a business they're running, and they're hoping to make a profit. Developing a niche game means they're aiming for a smaller audience regardless of whether the game is Kickstarted or not, so that argument is out.

The only sound argument I've heard in favor of Kickstarter is to think of it as charity, which I guess I'm more okay with but I'd rather give my money to other causes than video game development.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by TiLT »

There are few investors who'd even bother looking at, let alone consider, a project of this size and with this degree of risk. Your attitude is the death of this kind of project. You claim to be a supporter of niche games. Well, let me be the first to break the bad news: You're not.

It's okay not to be willing to support developers of niche games. What's not okay is to not support them, yet claim that you do. You most certainly don't.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

TiLT wrote:There are few investors who'd even bother looking at, let alone consider, a project of this size and with this degree of risk. Your attitude is the death of this kind of project. You claim to be a supporter of niche games. Well, let me be the first to break the bad news: You're not.

It's okay not to be willing to support developers of niche games. What's not okay is to not support them, yet claim that you do. You most certainly don't.
Yes I do - I buy indie titles all the time. But unless devs want to treat me as a proper investor and give me a cut of their profits once the game is on the market, I'd be insane to pay them before the game is finished.

Unless, like I said, I'd be willing to give them charity. Which I won't as I think it's very shady business practice.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

TiLT wrote:There are few investors who'd even bother looking at, let alone consider, a project of this size and with this degree of risk.
Also, what the hell kind of argument is this? We are absolutely SWAMPED with indie titles these days - or are you saying all those Steam Greenlit games simply don't exist? Are the makers of Papers, Please or Super Meat Boy strapped for cash maybe? It's NEVER been easier to make money on indie game development. Even that Vietnamese guy who made Flappy Bird - a hellish, horrendous piece of helicopter game clone crap - allegedly made 50,000 dollars in the first few days off the internet hype alone.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by ColdSteel »

Lagom Lite wrote:But guess what? That's what investors are for. You go and find funding. The investor takes the risk, and if the product is shit the investor takes the loss. Asking for the consumer to invest is completely backwards.
Well, that's what kickstarter is by definition. You are not purchasing a game, per se. You are investing in a development project and you are taking a risk by doing so. If you are adverse to risk and don't want to do it, that's fine but kickstarter is an investment mechanism. Also, as far as business models go, asking the consumer to invest is what you do when you commission something, which used to be a pretty common order of business for stuff like art and furniture. So, you can think of it like that. You are commissioning a game you'd like to play. It's not for everyone, and obviously outside your comfort zone, but there's nothing inherently bad for consumers about the process. It's one that's been around forever.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by TiLT »

Lagom Lite wrote:Yes I do - I buy indie titles all the time.
Which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The biggest challenge for an indie game is before it's completed, not after. Investors won't touch most such games. You don't support the developers. You pay them after the fact. That's nice and all, but you're not supporting indie development that way.

The developers of Darkest Dungeon have worked full-time on this for 9 months without pay. Do you find that to be a healthy way to develop games? Do you think they'd do that if there were investors out there who were willing to take a chance on this kind of game? You seem to have some lofty expectations of what investors can and can't do. Let me tell you, as someone who spent 4 years of his life on an indie development company that failed, indies are fucked if they can't get helped by players. The rare few who can get past the barrier of entry are those who are either able to work for free for years, who have large sums of money set aside to keep themselves supported, and/or don't have a large, or even moderately sized, team. Before Kickstarter, almost every indie game was made by just one or two people living under conditions that would be considered poverty by any western standard.

Darkest Dungeon, The Banner Saga, Broken Age, Wasteland 2... These are all games that would never even have been remotely possible to develop without Kickstarter. They need support. You're not giving it to them, mostly (it seems to me) because you don't really know how the business works and think it doesn't need you. That's fine. But you add insult to injury by shielding yourself behind the "I buy indie games" argument. Hey, that's great, but to the developers, their hardships are already over by that point.
But unless devs want to treat me as a proper investor and give me a cut of their profits once the game is on the market, I'd be insane to pay them before the game is finished.

Unless, like I said, I'd be willing to give them charity. Which I won't as I think it's very shady business practice.
Kickstarter is neither investment nor charity. That you think it must be one of the two shows that you don't really know what it's about. I welcome you to take a look at how these things really work. Is there risk involved by backing a Kickstarter? Absolutely. Does that make it an investment? No.

But hey, enjoy your games industry consisting of almost nothing but AAA games, where the most fancy indie games are on the level of Fez. Wave goodbye to the games that made the 90s such a cool time to be a gamer, because they're not going to be developed.

"Supporting indies" my ass.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

TiLT wrote:Let me tell you, as someone who spent 4 years of his life on an indie development company that failed,
Maybe you should have made a better game. You know, one that people might have paid for.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

ColdSteel wrote:commission
Comparing crowdfunding of a mass product to wealthy individuals commissioning a piece of art is stretching it to say the least.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by TiLT »

Lagom Lite wrote:
TiLT wrote:Let me tell you, as someone who spent 4 years of his life on an indie development company that failed,
Maybe you should have made a better game. You know, one that people might have paid for.
We never sold a single game, because we couldn't afford to finish development.

Are you finally seeing my point? Your "support" would have meant jack shit to a company like mine, because you're not supporting anyone.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by noxiousdog »

Lagom Lite wrote:
ColdSteel wrote:commission
Comparing crowdfunding of a mass product to wealthy individuals commissioning a piece of art is stretching it to say the least.
I think it's the best comparison by far.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

TiLT wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:
TiLT wrote:Let me tell you, as someone who spent 4 years of his life on an indie development company that failed,
Maybe you should have made a better game. You know, one that people might have paid for.
We never sold a single game, because we couldn't afford to finish development.

Are you finally seeing my point? Your "support" would have meant jack shit to a company like mine, because you're not supporting anyone.
I've only claimed to support indie games by buying them, nothing more.

Yes, I see your point. You were a small indie developer who failed to attract investors during development. Therefore your company failed. My point is that the consumer doesn't owe you anything. Investors take a risk - either because they are interested in the revenue it might generate, or because they are interested in the project itself - meaning they pay patronage. Which is charity. Which is fine if you want some goodwill, have lots of money to throw away and you trust the artist in question. Which seems dubious to me when it comes to developers of computer games, but hey, ymmv.

You seem to think I'm cold - maybe so. I see you as naive otoh. The history of computer game development is shock full of stuff like vaporware, scams and crap releases - and indie developers are no different.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by TiLT »

Lagom Lite wrote:You seem to think I'm cold - maybe so. I see you as naive otoh.
I don't see you as cold. I see you as ignorant, at least in this regard.

By the way, you just skipped everything I was trying to explain to you and continued as if I had said nothing. I guess that means there's no point for me to continue this line of discussion. Lagom Lite, you know nothing about how indie development works and how investors think. Not even one tiny bit. Your attitude hurts the industry you claim to support.

You want to continue your lack of support of the industry? Fine, that's your choice. It's your money, not mine. But when you have the gall to pretend that you're actually supporting the industry, followed by a rant where you make it clear that you will never, ever support it and that you think those who do are naive, then you're on my shit list. FYI.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by IceBear »

Naive? So far, most of the stuff we've backed here has been released or still on it's way. I think there was one that I backed that is basically not going to happen (it's on infinite hold) but I only pitched in $10 for that one as I was suspect of it. People have been pretty good as spotting problem projects waaaay before any money changes hands. I have no issue with "commissioning" $10-20 here and there for games that look interesting but might not get made without some extra cash. Ones that look like they aren't going to be viable (and some that smash their goals) I pass on (the ones that smash their goals I know will get made and I can pick them up later). Tilt is anything but naive as I'm pretty sure he's spotted a few failed kickstarters long before they've failed
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

TiLT wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:You seem to think I'm cold - maybe so. I see you as naive otoh.
I don't see you as cold. I see you as ignorant, at least in this regard.

By the way, you just skipped everything I was trying to explain to you and continued as if I had said nothing. I guess that means there's no point for me to continue this line of discussion. Lagom Lite, you know nothing about how indie development works and how investors think. Not even one tiny bit. Your attitude hurts the industry you claim to support.

You want to continue your lack of support of the industry? Fine, that's your choice. It's your money, not mine. But when you have the gall to pretend that you're actually supporting the industry, followed by a rant where you make it clear that you will never, ever support it and that you think those who do are naive, then you're on my shit list. FYI.
Where did I "pretend to support the industry"? I wrote that I support indies by buying their games, nothing more. You're building up quite a strawman here, not to mention arguing ad hominem. While it's true that I haven't worked in the indie game industry you're not arguing the point, you'd rather attack my character. Which makes you look foolish and insincere.

To clarify - if you want to pre-pay, which I see as charity, a game that you find interesting - then you either trust the developer because they have for whatever reason earned your trust - OR, you are acting naive. Furthermore, if a statement like that is all it takes to make your "shit list" then I'm starting to see why you had trouble finding backers to your game development. You're expecting people to pay you money for no result.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by IceBear »

You can take a risk without being naive you know. If I was naive regarding the projects I backed I would be 100% expecting to get a game for my money. I'm not...I know there's a chance the project might fail, even after researching the chances of that developer succeeding. So, yes, I am possibly being charitable with my money, but I resent being called naive about it.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

IceBear wrote:You can take a risk without being naive you know. If I was naive regarding the projects I backed I would be 100% expecting to get a game for my money. I'm not...I know there's a chance the project might fail, even after researching the chances of that developer succeeding. So, yes, I am possibly being charitable with my money, but I resent being called naive about it.
Fair enough - this discussion is getting too heated and I'm probably overstating things. TiLT seems to think that consumers who act in their own interests are at fault, and I find his line of reasoning very annoying. It's up to you where to spend your money of course - but Kickstarter (and perhaps to a higher degree, Early Access) is a bad trend imo. It conveniently sidesteps consumer rights and is too easily exploited by unserious developers.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by IceBear »

Lagom Lite wrote:
IceBear wrote:You can take a risk without being naive you know. If I was naive regarding the projects I backed I would be 100% expecting to get a game for my money. I'm not...I know there's a chance the project might fail, even after researching the chances of that developer succeeding. So, yes, I am possibly being charitable with my money, but I resent being called naive about it.
Fair enough - this discussion is getting too heated and I'm probably overstating things. TiLT seems to think that consumers who act in their own interests are at fault, and I find his line of reasoning very annoying. It's up to you where to spend your money of course - but Kickstarter (and perhaps to a higher degree, Early Access) is a bad trend imo. It conveniently sidesteps consumer rights and is too easily exploited by unserious developers.
I do agree with that, but, to date, I believe we've avoided any major "scams" with Kickstarter. The Kickstarter community seems very good at spotting "scammers". I'm sure once the community gets burnt the luster will come off it, but for now if I have an extra $10 lying around I have no issue with supporting a project that has been "vetted" by the community and is on the bubble for getting it's game made without some funding.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by TiLT »

Lagom Lite wrote:Fair enough - this discussion is getting too heated and I'm probably overstating things. TiLT seems to think that consumers who act in their own interests are at fault,
No, not at all. I think that consumers (ie. you in this case) who act in their own interest and then claim that they don't are at fault.

You say I used ad hominems. You are mistaken. It's not an ad hominem if someone's character is what you intend to challenge.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

TiLT wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:Fair enough - this discussion is getting too heated and I'm probably overstating things. TiLT seems to think that consumers who act in their own interests are at fault,
No, not at all. I think that consumers (ie. you in this case) who act in their own interest and then claim that they don't are at fault.

You say I used ad hominems. You are mistaken. It's not an ad hominem if someone's character is what you intend to challenge.
Well I have no interest in debating my character with you Sir. Unless you want to debate the point I am making, that the Kickstarter trend is bad for consumers, I am done with you.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by wonderpug »

I have a hard time believing Kickstarter is bad for consumers while I'm in the middle of consuming all these games that wouldn't exist without Kickstarter.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

IceBear wrote:
Lagom Lite wrote:
IceBear wrote:You can take a risk without being naive you know. If I was naive regarding the projects I backed I would be 100% expecting to get a game for my money. I'm not...I know there's a chance the project might fail, even after researching the chances of that developer succeeding. So, yes, I am possibly being charitable with my money, but I resent being called naive about it.
Fair enough - this discussion is getting too heated and I'm probably overstating things. TiLT seems to think that consumers who act in their own interests are at fault, and I find his line of reasoning very annoying. It's up to you where to spend your money of course - but Kickstarter (and perhaps to a higher degree, Early Access) is a bad trend imo. It conveniently sidesteps consumer rights and is too easily exploited by unserious developers.
I do agree with that, but, to date, I believe we've avoided any major "scams" with Kickstarter. The Kickstarter community seems very good at spotting "scammers". I'm sure once the community gets burnt the luster will come off it, but for now if I have an extra $10 lying around I have no issue with supporting a project that has been "vetted" by the community and is on the bubble for getting it's game made without some funding.
Time will tell I suppose. I'd remain wary of any company who asks for your money upfront, with nothing but promises of a finished product that might lie years away if at all. Maybe the positive examples are enough to outweight the negatives... but I think it's more likely that it will be exploited (because it can, it will), people will get burned, and the trend will go away.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Lagom Lite »

wonderpug wrote:I have a hard time believing Kickstarter is bad for consumers while I'm in the middle of consuming all these games that wouldn't exist without Kickstarter.
It's the trend I'm worried about. The implications crowdfunding may have if things like Kickstarting becomes industry standard.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by noxiousdog »

Lagom Lite wrote:
wonderpug wrote:I have a hard time believing Kickstarter is bad for consumers while I'm in the middle of consuming all these games that wouldn't exist without Kickstarter.
It's the trend I'm worried about. The implications crowdfunding may have if things like Kickstarting becomes industry standard.
It won't be industry standard. It might be niche standard. The products have to be well beyond design phases to get significant kickstarter money.

I wouldn't really use it for anything that I'm not getting at a significant discount, some nice perks, and/or entry into betas.

I think it's a good trade off for things that are well funded.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Smoove_B »

Lagom Lite wrote:It's the trend I'm worried about. The implications crowdfunding may have if things like Kickstarting becomes industry standard.
So sayeth we all. Well, a good number. Don't worry - I'm sure you'll be able to purchase the next iteration of The SIMS or Call of Duty from EA without Kickstarter. :wink:

I've said it in other threads on Kickstarter - we're in the middle of an experiment right now, though we're all finally starting to see the results of projects we backed years ago. I don't think it will become standard practice in any way, but I do think there's a good chance that games will be made that wouldn't have otherwise seen the light of day. Now, whether or not they are quality games - I think that remains to be seen. So far, the bag seems rather mixed.

On Topic: This actually looks pretty cool. I'm pretty burned out on the whole Kickstarter process at this point after hitting it pretty heavy over the last 3 or so years. I'll definitely keep an eye out for the release but I'll let someone else do the heavy lifting for now.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by IceBear »

As usual, I agree with Smoove
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by stimpy »

Smoove_B wrote:I'll let someone else do the heavy lifting for now.
HAVENT YOU BEEN LISTENING AT ALL????????
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by Smoove_B »

:D

Hey, I helped you get Wasteland 2 and Shadowrun. Maybe help a guy out and get me Darkest Dungeon. :wink:
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by wonderpug »

I know I'm toning down my Kickstarting fervor a bit. This Darkest Dungeon game looks extremely interesting to me, but since it already met its goal, I'm happy just waiting for it to release proper.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by IceBear »

wonderpug wrote:I know I'm toning down my Kickstarting fervor a bit. This Darkest Dungeon game looks extremely interesting to me, but since it already met its goal, I'm happy just waiting for it to release proper.
Yeah same here. I have less disposable cash right now until July (just the way I'm taxed) so unless it's something I OMG I GOT TO HAVE I am passing on most stuff on kickstarter right now.
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by stimpy »

TiLT wrote:then you're on my shit list. FYI.
Will there be a Kickstarter to get on this "shit list"?
What are the tiers?
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Re: [Kickstarter] Darkest Dungeon

Post by stimpy »

IceBear wrote:I am passing on most stuff on kickstarter right now.
That thud you heard was Tilt passing out.....
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