Cities: Skylines

If it's a video game it goes here.

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, Arcanis, $iljanus

Post Reply
User avatar
naednek
Posts: 10866
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 pm

Cities: Skylines

Post by naednek »

This game is coming out next week, and yesterday was the day the embargo lifted. Lots of lets play type videos are now out in the wild, and I must say it looks awesome.

Greenmangaming.com has it for $21 if you are a VIP member.

Check it out.

http://youtu.be/83VFQmGh1J0?list=PLs3ac ... AOQrVR3onu
hepcat - "I agree with Naednek"
User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26891
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Rip »

naednek wrote:This game is coming out next week, and yesterday was the day the embargo lifted. Lots of lets play type videos are now out in the wild, and I must say it looks awesome.

Greenmangaming.com has it for $21 if you are a VIP member.

Check it out.

http://youtu.be/83VFQmGh1J0?list=PLs3ac ... AOQrVR3onu
I watched a guy play a little on Twitch last night. It didn't look half bad.

I liked the zoning approach but it looked as though road pathing and building plopping was often complicated with slope restrictions and the like.
User avatar
Island Dog
Posts: 622
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:21 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Island Dog »

It looks pretty good. I've been wanting a good city builder.
User avatar
rshetts2
Posts: 6648
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:16 am
Location: North of 8 Mile (whew)

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by rshetts2 »

I said what the heck, for $20 it looks pretty cool. I picked it up.
Well do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense?
Or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?
User avatar
jztemple2
Posts: 11545
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Brevard County, Florida, USA

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by jztemple2 »

Wow, this so much reminds me of the SimCity series, and I played those right from the first one. And I especially liked reading this in the game description on GMG:
Extensive modding support: Build or improve on existing maps and structures. You can then import them into the game, share them as well as download the creations of other city builders on the Steam workshop.
Nice using the Workshop for structures. I might not care about downloading other people's maps, but other folks modded structures might be cool.

Oh, I just got sold on this game by something at the very end of the video cited above. You can reposition buildings for a small fraction of the price of a new building. That's so cool.
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
User avatar
naednek
Posts: 10866
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by naednek »

I highly recommend watching part 2 and 3. It explains alot more. Tons more options than the sim city games. This is gonna be a hit.
hepcat - "I agree with Naednek"
User avatar
jztemple2
Posts: 11545
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Brevard County, Florida, USA

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by jztemple2 »

Here's a link to the FAQ over on the Paradox Forum.
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
User avatar
Vorret
Posts: 9613
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Drummondville, QC

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Vorret »

Pffft of course when I make a thread nobody cares :evil:
Isgrimnur wrote:
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
User avatar
coopasonic
Posts: 20969
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Dallas-ish

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by coopasonic »

Vorret wrote:Pffft of course when I make a thread nobody cares :evil:
We don't take game recommendations from burrowing rodents.
-Coop
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Vorret
Posts: 9613
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:37 pm
Location: Drummondville, QC

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Vorret »

coopasonic wrote:
Vorret wrote:Pffft of course when I make a thread nobody cares :evil:
We don't take game recommendations from burrowing rodents.
Valid point :(
Isgrimnur wrote:
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
User avatar
jztemple2
Posts: 11545
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Brevard County, Florida, USA

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by jztemple2 »

I pre-ordered this so barring unforeseen circumstances I'll be posting early impressions on Tuesday.
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
User avatar
Unagi
Posts: 26376
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Unagi »

naednek wrote:I highly recommend watching part 2 and 3. It explains alot more. Tons more options than the sim city games. This is gonna be a hit.
Yeah, everything I've been seeing on this - makes the current Sim City look pretty lame
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by noxiousdog »

The faq says you can only have 1 million citizens.

I don't understand the design decision to try to simulate each person as opposed to a more abstract version allowing bigger cities.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
naednek
Posts: 10866
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:23 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by naednek »

They also said you could mod it so you can have more, but there's no guarantee for stability
hepcat - "I agree with Naednek"
User avatar
Reemul
Posts: 2744
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Reemul »

Only 1 million people, thats 1,000,000 people, thats a disgrace I want my monney back :doh:
User avatar
Zurai
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:30 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Zurai »

noxiousdog wrote:The faq says you can only have 1 million citizens.

I don't understand the design decision to try to simulate each person as opposed to a more abstract version allowing bigger cities.
Keep in mind that even skyscraper residential complexes cap out at like 15 citizens and AFAIK the population display is the number of actual citizens in your city, it doesn't fudge the numbers. I'm sure there'll be a mod within a day to fix that for people who can't handle that.
User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26891
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Rip »

Zurai wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:The faq says you can only have 1 million citizens.

I don't understand the design decision to try to simulate each person as opposed to a more abstract version allowing bigger cities.
Keep in mind that even skyscraper residential complexes cap out at like 15 citizens and AFAIK the population display is the number of actual citizens in your city, it doesn't fudge the numbers. I'm sure there'll be a mod within a day to fix that for people who can't handle that.
Yea, you have to become unrealistic at some point. The numbers just won't work. You have giant skyscrapers but at scale only 6 or 8 cars can park in front, 16 people live inside etc.

You can't have cities that are 4-10 million people unless those building are holding more people like real life. If you do that you can't handle keeping track of and displaying them all in an entertaining fashion. I think people are in this case looking for something that they wouldn't enjoy, even if someone could pull it off.

I like better the idea of being a more moderate size city simulator that is portrayed effectively and tuned to entertain.
User avatar
Zurai
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:30 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Zurai »

By "mod that fixes that" I was referring to fudging the numbers, not changing the actual population values (though I'm sure someone will do that, too). It should be relatively straightforward to just scale the displayed population number up by some factor, or if the modder gets really fancy, count citizens as different amounts for population depending on where they live (so a 5 person house might only be worth 5 pop but a 15 person skyscraper is worth 300 or whatever). Again, display only, not simulated agents.
User avatar
baelthazar
Posts: 4365
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by baelthazar »

Rip wrote: I like better the idea of being a more moderate size city simulator that is portrayed effectively and tuned to entertain.
This. I don't care about numbers of citizens, from a gaming standpoint 1 million is no different from 20 million if it lets you have the same type of buildings that one normally sees in a city.You also have to remember, this is a game made by Europeans and largely simulating a European-style city. Many major European cities are less than 1 million people. The developer is Finnish, and Helsinki only has a little more than 500,000 people, even though it is the largest city in Finland. Outside of the big names of Berlin, London, Paris, etc., your normal European cities are almost universally under one million. Marseille, the second largest city in France, is ~800,000. England's second largest city is Birmingham and just over a million.

So I'm not sure why this is a big deal. I would rather have a detailed sim (with water purity, pollution, and waste removal accurately modeled) than one with inflated population numbers.
Jeff V
Posts: 36414
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:17 pm
Location: Nowhere you want to be.

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Jeff V »

Rip wrote: Yea, you have to become unrealistic at some point. The numbers just won't work. You have giant skyscrapers but at scale only 6 or 8 cars can park in front, 16 people live inside etc.
Call it a Detroit simulator. Problem solved.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by noxiousdog »

baelthazar wrote:
So I'm not sure why this is a big deal. I would rather have a detailed sim (with water purity, pollution, and waste removal accurately modeled) than one with inflated population numbers.
It's not a BIG deal (it won't stop me from playing), but I was hoping someone could help me understand the design decision.

It seems to me, abstracting and aggregating is easier and scales better. There is going to be a segment of the consumer base that wants to make a London/New York/Mexico City. Having every citizen simulated doesn't seem like a benefit to me. I'm never going to watch 150 of my citizens, let alone 100,000 of them.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
baelthazar
Posts: 4365
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by baelthazar »

noxiousdog wrote: It's not a BIG deal (it won't stop me from playing), but I was hoping someone could help me understand the design decision.
Like I said, they are a European developer making a city builder to build European-style cities, which are generally less than one million. Some of the developers videos highlight design choices that are very much European in both aesthetic and execution. This group's previous games were all about European transit, and I see a lot of holdovers from Cities in Motion in Cities: Skylines.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by noxiousdog »

baelthazar wrote:
noxiousdog wrote: It's not a BIG deal (it won't stop me from playing), but I was hoping someone could help me understand the design decision.
Like I said, they are a European developer making a city builder to build European-style cities, which are generally less than one million. Some of the developers videos highlight design choices that are very much European in both aesthetic and execution. This group's previous games were all about European transit, and I see a lot of holdovers from Cities in Motion in Cities: Skylines.
Western Europe has twice as many cities over one million as the US does. (18 vs 9).
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Lorini »

I do wonder if the median is lower in Europe than in the US.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
jztemple2
Posts: 11545
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Brevard County, Florida, USA

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by jztemple2 »

Just FYI, there are already folks who are working on mods, like one to allow you to unlock all 25 tiles of a map.
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26891
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Rip »

jztemple2 wrote:Just FYI, there are already folks who are working on mods, like one to allow you to unlock all 25 tiles of a map.
Now that is something I would like. I would rather spread my city out and not have to make it so dense. The ability to make "districts" make that kind of game sound interesting.
User avatar
Zurai
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:30 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Zurai »

Incidentally, it appears I was basing my "even big skyscrapers have low populations" comment off either old data or just misinformation from elsewhere. High-level dense residential buildings can hold well over a hundred citizens.
User avatar
baelthazar
Posts: 4365
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by baelthazar »

noxiousdog wrote:
baelthazar wrote:
noxiousdog wrote: It's not a BIG deal (it won't stop me from playing), but I was hoping someone could help me understand the design decision.
Like I said, they are a European developer making a city builder to build European-style cities, which are generally less than one million. Some of the developers videos highlight design choices that are very much European in both aesthetic and execution. This group's previous games were all about European transit, and I see a lot of holdovers from Cities in Motion in Cities: Skylines.
Western Europe has twice as many cities over one million as the US does. (18 vs 9).
So... that is you inadvertently proving my point that the game need not go over 1 million. :)
Last edited by baelthazar on Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by noxiousdog »

baelthazar wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
baelthazar wrote:
noxiousdog wrote: It's not a BIG deal (it won't stop me from playing), but I was hoping someone could help me understand the design decision.
Like I said, they are a European developer making a city builder to build European-style cities, which are generally less than one million. Some of the developers videos highlight design choices that are very much European in both aesthetic and execution. This group's previous games were all about European transit, and I see a lot of holdovers from Cities in Motion in Cities: Skylines.
Western Europe has twice as many cities over one million as the US does. (18 vs 9).
So... that is you inadvertently proving my point that the game need not go over 1 million. :D
So what you're saying is that you have no idea why they made that decision.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
jztemple2
Posts: 11545
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:52 am
Location: Brevard County, Florida, USA

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by jztemple2 »

An interesting PCGamesN article plus YouTube video, Cities: Skylines won't let you get away with being a bad mayor
Hello! I’ve done a video. It’s been a while since I buried Playing With Myself, and the pain has been dulled, so I thought, what the hell. Cities: Skylines is the subject, and the less than stellar management aspects of Cities XXL provides the inspiration.

I wanted to see how being a bad mayor would affect my city. In the cases of SimCity and Cities XXL, you could coast along, happy as you like, and cities would keep ticking over, regardless of your inability to manage your way out of a paper bag. Cities: Skylines, as you’ll see below, is not so absurdly forgiving.
It's a twelve minute video and there's a lot of talk and not as much eye candy as I'd prefer, but the author explains how he built a city and then didn't pay enough attention to it, with bad results. We get to see some of the interface menus, like getting loans, setting policies and establishing districts. His point is that unlike Cities XXL and the recent SimCity, you really have to manage your city and keep an eye on things, making changes and fixing problems, some of which might be of your own doing.
My father said that anything is interesting if you bother to read about it - Michael C. Harrold
User avatar
baelthazar
Posts: 4365
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by baelthazar »

noxiousdog wrote:
baelthazar wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
baelthazar wrote:
noxiousdog wrote: It's not a BIG deal (it won't stop me from playing), but I was hoping someone could help me understand the design decision.
Like I said, they are a European developer making a city builder to build European-style cities, which are generally less than one million. Some of the developers videos highlight design choices that are very much European in both aesthetic and execution. This group's previous games were all about European transit, and I see a lot of holdovers from Cities in Motion in Cities: Skylines.
Western Europe has twice as many cities over one million as the US does. (18 vs 9).
So... that is you inadvertently proving my point that the game need not go over 1 million. :D
So what you're saying is that you have no idea why they made that decision.
You ninja'ed me Lo Pan! I was editing!

I think it is two fold - the developers are Finnish and neither Finland, Norway, or Sweden have cities with over a million inhabitants. When they think "city" they would not automatically think huge population numbers. The second it that having larger numbers means more CPU power required for simulating these people. This sim is already using processing power for determining things like traffic and water (both flow and quality), so I think it is a tradeoff.

The US does, however, has larger single city populations than Europe (New York, LA, Dallas, Philadelphia).

Now if this game was an India city building sim, you can bet it would go up to 20 million!
User avatar
TiLT
Posts: 4435
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Trondheim, Norway
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by TiLT »

I've watched quite a few Let's Play videos, and let me tell you: Even a city with just 50,000 people is huge in this game! A population of a million is going to be almost unmanageable, and it's probably going to force you to min/max the 9-tile layout. Trust me, the population limit won't be a problem.
Insert witty comment here.
User avatar
Reemul
Posts: 2744
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Reemul »

Final diary look before release, this game looks ace

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/03 ... ore-274621
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by noxiousdog »

baelthazar wrote: The US does, however, has larger single city populations than Europe (New York, LA, Dallas, Philadelphia).
London, Istanbul, and Moscow are all bigger than NYC which is the biggest US city by population.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Reemul
Posts: 2744
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Reemul »

noxiousdog wrote:
baelthazar wrote: The US does, however, has larger single city populations than Europe (New York, LA, Dallas, Philadelphia).
London, Istanbul, and Moscow are all bigger than NYC which is the biggest US city by population.
True but most only have 1 or maybe 2 cities of that size where as the USA has a few.
User avatar
baelthazar
Posts: 4365
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by baelthazar »

noxiousdog wrote:
baelthazar wrote: The US does, however, has larger single city populations than Europe (New York, LA, Dallas, Philadelphia).
London, Istanbul, and Moscow are all bigger than NYC which is the biggest US city by population.
This is also not wholly correct. It all depends on what you count as the "metropolitan area." NYC techincally has 8 million in its political municipality, which is about 1/3rd the area of Moscow's municipality and 1/2 the area of London's. But if you count NYC's metro region (correcting to include the same amount of space as London and Moscow - which includes Newark and New Jersey City), you have almost 20 million people (double the number of London or Moscow). Besides, London and NYC are almost the exact same population in their city proper.

I'm not sure what purpose this discussion has. It is pretty clear that the devs wanted to make a city simulator and not a metropolis simulator.
User avatar
noxiousdog
Posts: 24627
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by noxiousdog »

Reemul, I have no idea what you mean by that. We already established Europe has twice as many million plus cities as the US. This also isn't Regions: Skylines.

Bealthazar, obviously that's what they were trying to do. They wanted to simulate each individual citizen rather than allow Londons or Parises. What I'm interested in is why. If nobody else understands the reasoning, that's fine too, but clearly 'because they are European' isn't a good reason. I doubt 'because they are Finnish' is a good one ether because I bet they did a great deal of research and understand Helsinki isn't the largest city in the world.

They made a design decision. Probably for good reasons. I would like to know why.
Black Lives Matter

"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
User avatar
Zurai
Posts: 4866
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:30 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Zurai »

Because agent-based simulations are much easier than comprehensive data-based simulations. With an agent-based system, you only need reasonable agent AI, and the interactions of all the different agents create the gameplay. With a comprehensive non-agent simulation, you have to specifically code every single interaction. It's much harder, more time-consuming, and harder to fix when it breaks.

Colossal Order is like an 8-person development company with a background in traffic management simulation. They do not have the manpower or expertise for a full data-driven simulation of an entire massive city.

EDIT: Also in a fully data-driven sim you couldn't attach your camera to a hearse filled with corpses and follow it around the city to figure out why your traffic is backed up.
User avatar
baelthazar
Posts: 4365
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by baelthazar »

Also, isn't being able to follow the opinions of individual citizens (via a few methods, including a Twitter-like feed) being billed as one of the features of the game? Most of the recent city-building games try to allow for following citizens, so it seems normal that this would be a design decision (one that necessitated implementing a reasonable citizen cap).

It may not be that they are Finnish, but I wouldn't discount the way they approached their previous games. The Cities in Motion series was absolutely dedicated to simulating mid-sized European city transit.
User avatar
Reemul
Posts: 2744
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:39 pm

Re: Cities: Skylines

Post by Reemul »

noxiousdog wrote:Reemul, I have no idea what you mean by that. We already established Europe has twice as many million plus cities as the US. This also isn't Regions: Skylines.
What I meant was comparing the whole of Europe to one country that being the US. In Europe each country will be lucky to have only 1 country comprising of 1 million or more people where as there are 9 in the USA alone.

I think the comment on size was that as a european developer maybe a million people in a city was seen as much bigger than normal from an area that doesnt see cities of that size very often whereas to an American developer maybe a million seems not that big, but who knows.
Post Reply