Total War: Warhammer

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:36 am

baelthazar wrote:
TiLT wrote:To be clear, I would have been far less annoyed at this (but still annoyed) if they were holding back something like, say, a Lizardman army, or an undead army. Those are secondary to Warhammer Fantasy and could more easily be seen as a bonus. Chaos however is the main enemy of the Empire, and this game indeed takes place in that Empire.
...
Chaos in a Warhammer game is a good comparison to Germany in a WW2 game. They are the main enemy. Anything else is incidental distractions. Leaving them out is such an assholish thing to do that it leaves me flabbergasted.
I kind of have to disagree here. If you ask 100 different table top Warhammer fans what enemy is the "main enemy" or what army is indispensable, you would likely get a myriad of answers. I, for one, would prefer to have a Skaven army (and they are certainly an enemy of the Empire). The Vampire Counts (which are one of the armies in the game without DLC) are also a main enemy of the "living" factions (like the Dwarves and the Empire). Orcs and Goblins are also in and also main enemies of the forces of good. So not everyone would agree that Chaos is key. That would be like saying that Chaos was the key enemy in Warhammer 40K when Tyrannids, Necron, Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and sometimes Tau all square off against the Empire.

You're confusing the story of these settings with the smaller stories made for the tabletop game. They are different. In Warhammer Fantasy, Chaos has always been, and will always be (especially now that the setting is finished. Know who "won"? Chaos did.) the main enemy of humanity. Orcs are a constant threat and a constant bother, but they're not that level of enemy. The Skaven aren't even acknowledged to be real by the Empire (any observations are shut down as heresy or as mutant sightings), which says a lot about how much of an enemy they are considered to be. The vampire counts barely register as a blip on the radar for the majority of the Empire. Chaos affects everyone. It has ravaged the Empire twice, and will do so one final time before destroying the world. There is no enemy even close to it in scale. Sure, other armies are important in the tabletop game, but they aren't anywhere close to equal in the story itself.

The same isn't true for WH40k. Chaos is unlikely to win in the end there. An organization like the Inquisition might claim that Chaos is the main enemy, but the metaplot indicates that the actual threat comes from the Tyranids and the Necrons. But here too, almost every army is equal in importance in the tabletop game, disregarding Games Workshop's fetish for Space Marines.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:16 am

Even in the tabletop games, both RPG and war, Chaos was always the Joker to the Empire's Batman. Hell, even in the few novels I read. They're the two forces at the center of everything.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:03 am

Yes TiLT, but this is like a video game adaptation of tabletop (and not an adventure game based on the novels) - so my point about people disagreeing about what armies need to be playable holds. Also, as other people have said here, Chaos is clearly in the game as an enemy even without getting the DLC. The DLC makes them playable. So they can still be the main bad guys without being a playable faction.

As to WH40K, you may be optimistic about the Imperium's chances. Once the Emperor finally kicks it (and there have been rumblings about this possibility), Chaos might get the upper hand!

IceBear · Post by **IceBear** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:57 am

But the ever hungry Hivemind that is the tyranid swarm will devour them all - Chaos or Imperium, so it doesn't really matter

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:23 pm

Nerds...

I've been waiting for a fantasy Total War for a long time, but I have no hands-on experience with Warhammer itself. Ergo, I'm not invested in the issue of which playable factions should be baked into the base game and which ones would be acceptable as optional. It's good to see that the issue is open to debate amongst Warhammer aficionados.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:38 pm

baelthazar wrote:As to WH40K, you may be optimistic about the Imperium's chances.

Oh I don't think the Imperium of Man has a snowball's chance in hell to win the war they're waging. I just don't think Chaos is in any position to finish the job they started, even if the Astronomican disappears. Chaos has been at a relative standstill for a long time (or even falling back), while the Necrons and Tyranids are expanding with incredible speed. Chaos might have won in the end if they were alone about wishing the Imperium destroyed, but they're not, and they're far from fast enough to grasp the prize in front of the more powerful factions.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:56 pm

Yeah, I think the universe will be split between the organic biomass of the Tyranid and the largely inedible Necrons.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:24 pm

Max Peck wrote: It's good to see that the issue is open to debate amongst Warhammer aficionados.

It isn't, really. It's like having some WoW fans arguing the Orcs aren't the core opponent to the Humans because Trolls exist (and the people arguing really like trolls).

Sure, there are other races/armies, and sure in your Saturday pickup game at your local game shop could be necrons versus tau, but that's not the same thing as suggesting necrons are just as important in the lore and WH40K universe as the Empire. Or Chaos.

I understand where Bael is coming from, but WH40K is pretty obviously space marines versus chaos marines with lots of other factions so you have more miniatures to buy.

I'm personally not a huge space marine or chaos marine fan, but I'm certainly not going to argue that neither is integral to the WH40K universe. Because that would be nuts.

I'd argue that the Eldar are more important to the WH40K universe than either the Tyrannid or the Necrons, and they (Eldar) have been in decline (lore-wise, they're dying off) since the game was created.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:50 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Max Peck wrote: It's good to see that the issue is open to debate amongst Warhammer aficionados.
It isn't, really. It's like having some WoW fans arguing the Orcs aren't the core opponent to the Humans because Trolls exist (and the people arguing really like trolls).

Sure, there are other races/armies, and sure in your Saturday pickup game at your local game shop could be necrons versus tau, but that's not the same thing as suggesting necrons are just as important in the lore and WH40K universe as the Empire. Or Chaos.

I understand where Bael is coming from, but WH40K is pretty obviously space marines versus chaos marines with lots of other factions so you have more miniatures to buy.

I'm personally not a huge space marine or chaos marine fan, but I'm certainly not going to argue that neither is integral to the WH40K universe. Because that would be nuts.

I'd argue that the Eldar are more important to the WH40K universe than either the Tyrannid or the Necrons, and they (Eldar) have been in decline (lore-wise, they're dying off) since the game was created.

I'm sorry, I thought that the fact it was actually being debated meant that it was actually debatable. Now I realize that it is just that some folks are wrong while others are correct. I appreciate the clarification.

In other news, as a public service allow me to direct those of you opposed to the TW:W pre-order to one of the undoubtedly many efforts underway to convince CA/Sqenix to cut it out.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:13 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Max Peck wrote: It's good to see that the issue is open to debate amongst Warhammer aficionados.
It isn't, really. It's like having some WoW fans arguing the Orcs aren't the core opponent to the Humans because Trolls exist (and the people arguing really like trolls).

Sure, there are other races/armies, and sure in your Saturday pickup game at your local game shop could be necrons versus tau, but that's not the same thing as suggesting necrons are just as important in the lore and WH40K universe as the Empire. Or Chaos.

I understand where Bael is coming from, but WH40K is pretty obviously space marines versus chaos marines with lots of other factions so you have more miniatures to buy.

I'm personally not a huge space marine or chaos marine fan, but I'm certainly not going to argue that neither is integral to the WH40K universe. Because that would be nuts.

I'd argue that the Eldar are more important to the WH40K universe than either the Tyrannid or the Necrons, and they (Eldar) have been in decline (lore-wise, they're dying off) since the game was created.

I'm not so sure it is that cut and dry. Yes, the Imperium is totally necessary (as is the Empire for stock WH). They have been and are the main protagonists (largely because they are human, like us, and exist as an extension of our own history). AFAIK, the original Rogue Trader release for WH40K in 1987 did not include Chaos at all - the main enemies were, in fact, the Orks. A year later Chaos was introduced and the "Space Elves" became the Eldar. I think the same can be said for fantasy Warhammer - Chaos was not a playable race from the outset (until Realms of Chaos, in 1988, I think). What would become Tyranids were part of the game early on, but again were fleshed out with Space Hulk in 1989 (at least the Genestealers).

Now, the WH40K novels focus primarily on Chaos as the key foil to the Imperium, largely because Chaos represents the hedonistic nature of humanity and the empire represents overly oppressive aspect of humanity. That sort of dichotomy makes for good literature. But plenty of books are about the Eldar and Dark Eldar (I'm reading the Dark Eldar Omnibus right now). It is harder to write novels about the Tyranids and Necron because they are a bit too alien (or silent) to be good characters.

I do think this conversation is a bit funny (and fun, actually) because one of the first RTS Warhammer games absolutely did not include Chaos. I'm referring, of course, to Shadow of the Horned Rat, where the Imperium faced off against the Skaven and Orks (and that game did fairly well). Chaos does not show up until Dark Omens, the sequel to Horned Rat.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:21 pm

Actually, did Dark Omens have Chaos in it? Or was the main enemy the undead?

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:56 pm

baelthazar wrote:Actually, did Dark Omens have Chaos in it? Or was the main enemy the undead?

The internets tell me the opposing forces were orcs, then undead.

According to the product blurb on Steam, the base game has 4 playable factions:

Empire
Dwarfs
Vampire Counts
Greenskins

Given that we're talking about Creative Assembly, and thus knowing that they are going to do some playable factions as DLC unit packs rather than putting everything into the base game (like it or not, it's their business model), which of these four factions would you consider to be less iconic than Chaos and therefore could be swapped out in favour of Chaos?

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:59 pm

Dark Omen didn't have even a hint of Chaos. It was all orks and undead. Chaos didn't show up in video game form until "Mark of Chaos".

Anyway, having a whole faction as a "pre-order bonus" seems pretty obnoxious.

On the plus side, I wasn't planning on buying this anywhere near release anyway, it's going to be one of those things that I mark down and wait for the price to drop into the $10 range.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:26 pm

NickAragua wrote:Anyway, having a whole faction as a "pre-order bonus" seems pretty obnoxious.

Why? They aren't saying the faction is exclusive to pre-orders, so there's no reason to assume that anyone misses out on anything if they don't pre-order, aside from the freebie. That's not really any worse for a pre-order incentive than offering a modest discount on the game.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:55 pm

Lots of video games focused on other factions/races/armies.

You've got things like Fire Warrior that puts the Empire (imperium, whatever) as the antagonists. shrug.

Half the Imperium lore is about being corrupted by the warp and wiping out entire planets of their own people to prevent it.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:01 pm

baelthazar wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Max Peck wrote: It's good to see that the issue is open to debate amongst Warhammer aficionados.
It isn't, really. It's like having some WoW fans arguing the Orcs aren't the core opponent to the Humans because Trolls exist (and the people arguing really like trolls).

Sure, there are other races/armies, and sure in your Saturday pickup game at your local game shop could be necrons versus tau, but that's not the same thing as suggesting necrons are just as important in the lore and WH40K universe as the Empire. Or Chaos.

I understand where Bael is coming from, but WH40K is pretty obviously space marines versus chaos marines with lots of other factions so you have more miniatures to buy.

I'm personally not a huge space marine or chaos marine fan, but I'm certainly not going to argue that neither is integral to the WH40K universe. Because that would be nuts.

I'd argue that the Eldar are more important to the WH40K universe than either the Tyrannid or the Necrons, and they (Eldar) have been in decline (lore-wise, they're dying off) since the game was created.
I'm not so sure it is that cut and dry. Yes, the Imperium is totally necessary (as is the Empire for stock WH). They have been and are the main protagonists (largely because they are human, like us, and exist as an extension of our own history). AFAIK, the original Rogue Trader release for WH40K in 1987 did not include Chaos at all - the main enemies were, in fact, the Orks. A year later Chaos was introduced and the "Space Elves" became the Eldar. I think the same can be said for fantasy Warhammer - Chaos was not a playable race from the outset (until Realms of Chaos, in 1988, I think). What would become Tyranids were part of the game early on, but again were fleshed out with Space Hulk in 1989 (at least the Genestealers).

Now, the WH40K novels focus primarily on Chaos as the key foil to the Imperium, largely because Chaos represents the hedonistic nature of humanity and the empire represents overly oppressive aspect of humanity. That sort of dichotomy makes for good literature. But plenty of books are about the Eldar and Dark Eldar (I'm reading the Dark Eldar Omnibus right now). It is harder to write novels about the Tyranids and Necron because they are a bit too alien (or silent) to be good characters.

I do think this conversation is a bit funny (and fun, actually) because one of the first RTS Warhammer games absolutely did not include Chaos. I'm referring, of course, to Shadow of the Horned Rat, where the Imperium faced off against the Skaven and Orks (and that game did fairly well). Chaos does not show up until Dark Omens, the sequel to Horned Rat.

I'll just say that if this was 1987 no one would be complaining about chaos not being included in the base game.

I am curious how many recent books (say the last 5 or possibly even 10 years) have the Imperium as the protagonists but never mention the Chaos. I don't know the answer, and it quite possibly could be "a lot".

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:12 pm

If it was 1987, we would be upset that it was using too much purple and teal in its color scheme.

I don't know about all WH40K books, but since most of them are from the Imperium's perspective they are often about fighting Chaos, Orks, or rebels (usually heretics). I suppose, since the Chaos Gods have become the cause for nearly any problem, the warp, the fall of the Dark Eldar, rebellion and heresy, you can tangentially connect most books back to Chaos. That is different, of course, than the Chaos marines, which do not appear in every book.

I don't read the fantasy WH books, so I couldn't tell you there.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:29 pm

Right, but we're not talking about 1987, we're talking about WH40K today.

If you want to differentiate between the Warp, Chaos Gods and Chaos Marines, ok, but I don't think most people would, so that brings us back to your viewpoint not being the mainstream view of WH40K, imo of course. I'm not exactly a scholar on the subject, but I am aware of it.

baelthazar · Post by **baelthazar** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:05 pm

GreenGoo wrote:Right, but we're not talking about 1987, we're talking about WH40K today.

If you want to differentiate between the Warp, Chaos Gods and Chaos Marines, ok, but I don't think most people would, so that brings us back to your viewpoint not being the mainstream view of WH40K, imo of course. I'm not exactly a scholar on the subject, but I am aware of it.

Oh, there is a HUGE difference in the depictions of the warp and the Chaos Gods depending on the race in question. If you read Eisenhorn and Ravenor (about the Inquisition), the Chaos Gods and Heretics are everywhere, but the Chaos Marines barely (if ever) show up. If you read Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts (about the Imperial Guard), the Chaos Marines also only show up to be an almost insurmountable force (since the guard are normal people) - even though Gaunt's forces are usually fighting followers of the Chaos Gods. If you read the Eldar books, the Chaos Gods sort of show up, but the Warp is a big piece. So, yeah, they are clearly differentiated depending on topic.

But, to get back to TW:WH, my point is - there have been more games about WH that did NOT include Chaos than games that did. In fact, with the release of Vermintide, more WH games have featured the Skaven than Chaos.

As to DLC, I'm ambivalent. It is another fad that will likely move on to something else. I do not think it is the end of consumer rights (the same argument was made about Steam when it released).

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:13 pm

baelthazar wrote:
As to DLC, I'm ambivalent. It is another fad that will likely move on to something else. I do not think it is the end of consumer rights (the same argument was made about Steam when it released).

It isn't the concept of DLC that is being decried. DLC is just expansion packs for the online era. It is this particular implementation of DLC that is the issue.

hentzau · Post by **hentzau** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:13 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
I'll just say that if this was 1987 no one would be complaining about chaos not being included in the base game.

Funny. I've been listening to this conversation, and back when we were HUGE into WHFB, we all hated Chaos. We fielded almost every army other than Chaos.

I got no horse in this race, because I've moved beyond WHFB (or whatever it is called these days). But not having Chaos would almost be a bonus to me.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:20 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
baelthazar wrote:
As to DLC, I'm ambivalent. It is another fad that will likely move on to something else. I do not think it is the end of consumer rights (the same argument was made about Steam when it released).
It isn't the concept of DLC that is being decried. DLC is just expansion packs for the online era. It is this particular implementation of DLC that is the issue.

What about "this particular implementation" isn't just regular old DLC? Are you under the impression that if you don't pre-order you'll never be able to get it? There is no indication that is the case. Is it because it is launch-day DLC? That's nothing new, but I can understand why some people don't like it. Is it something else?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:32 pm

(Ignoring the importance of Chaos argument for a moment.)

Because it was something that should have been part of the base game that is being sold separately for extra money. It isn't extra content; it is basic content.

The way they added it free to preorders doesn't help. Preorders themselves aren't terribly popular for a variety of good reasons, but including what is felt to be base content only for those that preorder feels particularly underhanded. It isn't rewarding preorders so much as it is punishing those who do not preorder.

With a company with CA's reputation, it is even more shitty, as preordering from them is even less desirable.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:25 am

Blackhawk wrote:(Ignoring the importance of Chaos argument for a moment.)

Because it was something that should have been part of the base game that is being sold separately for extra money. It isn't extra content; it is basic content.

The way they added it free to preorders doesn't help. Preorders themselves aren't terribly popular for a variety of good reasons, but including what is felt to be base content only for those that preorder feels particularly underhanded. It isn't rewarding preorders so much as it is punishing those who do not preorder.

With a company with CA's reputation, it is even more shitty, as preordering from them is even less desirable.

OK, so it's the day-one DLC thing. That doesn't really bother me. In general, I just factor in whether I want it and if so, how much I'm willing to pay for it. With the Total War series, I usually wait for a good sale well after launch and buy the game and any good DLC at that point. In this case, I'd be picking it up at launch anyway (Yes, I know they usually need more time to iron out the wrinkles, but I've been waiting for a fantasy Total War for a l-o-n-g time, and I'm not going to live forever.

) so I don't personally have a downside to pre-ordering and getting the Chaos DLC for free. Even if the game is a ripe turd at launch, I can still get a refund until I hit the 2-hour playtime mark.

I don't know why people are down on pre-orders so much, but apparently that is a real thing. Adobe's "U.S Gaming Trends 2015" found that the most common emotion associated with pre-orders is sadness (followed by joy, admiration, surprise and anticipation, in that order).

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:38 am

Max Peck wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:(Ignoring the importance of Chaos argument for a moment.)

Because it was something that should have been part of the base game that is being sold separately for extra money. It isn't extra content; it is basic content.

The way they added it free to preorders doesn't help. Preorders themselves aren't terribly popular for a variety of good reasons, but including what is felt to be base content only for those that preorder feels particularly underhanded. It isn't rewarding preorders so much as it is punishing those who do not preorder.

With a company with CA's reputation, it is even more shitty, as preordering from them is even less desirable.
OK, so it's the day-one DLC thing.

No. It is not. A 'day-one DLC thing' is not an accurate summary of the complaint.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:45 am

Blackhawk wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:(Ignoring the importance of Chaos argument for a moment.)

Because it was something that should have been part of the base game that is being sold separately for extra money. It isn't extra content; it is basic content.

The way they added it free to preorders doesn't help. Preorders themselves aren't terribly popular for a variety of good reasons, but including what is felt to be base content only for those that preorder feels particularly underhanded. It isn't rewarding preorders so much as it is punishing those who do not preorder.

With a company with CA's reputation, it is even more shitty, as preordering from them is even less desirable.
OK, so it's the day-one DLC thing.
No. It is not. A 'day-one DLC thing' is not an accurate summary of the complaint.

Sorry, I'm missing the point then. I thought you meant that the problem is that it is DLC is made available at the same time that the game is released, and therefore could/should have been included in the base game but has been split off so that you have to pay more money to get the "whole" game. That is what I meant by "day-one" or "launch" DLC.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:53 am

baelthazar wrote:
But, to get back to TW:WH, my point is - there have been more games about WH that did NOT include Chaos than games that did. In fact, with the release of Vermintide, more WH games have featured the Skaven than Chaos.

There have been no Skaven in any of the WH40K games I own. In fact I'd never heard of them until Vermintide, which appears to be just WH.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:55 am

baelthazar wrote: As to DLC, I'm ambivalent. It is another fad that will likely move on to something else. I do not think it is the end of consumer rights (the same argument was made about Steam when it released).

Wait, what? DLC has nothing to do with consumer rights. DRM does, however. What do you mean?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:13 am

Max Peck wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:
Max Peck wrote: OK, so it's the day-one DLC thing.
I thought you meant that the problem is that it is DLC is made available at the same time that the game is released, and therefore could/should have been included in the base game but has been split off so that you have to pay more money to get the "whole" game.

The idea that it should be included in the base game has nothing to do with the timing. It has to do with the content of the DLC. As in the previous example someone made, it is like creating Total War: WWII, giving you the Americans, British, Japanese, and Russians, but then charging extra for the Germans. They are content you would expect to see in the base game. Withholding them and charging extra for anyone not willing to preorder is the problem.

The only real argument here is whether Chaos are the Nazis of Warhammer. If they are (and a lot of people feel they are), then it is classless.

I have no problem with the fabled 'day one DLC' myself. It is usually extra content produced after the core team has completed work on the game itself. It is the Italians and the French.

FWIW, I, too will be buying this when it is on sale as a 'complete' pack on Steam for the 2017 Summer Sale for $14.99. I don't buy Total War games on release anymore. Up through Rome and Medieval II it was great. Since then? I'll consider spending after I see the reviews.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:15 am

GreenGoo wrote:
baelthazar wrote:
But, to get back to TW:WH, my point is - there have been more games about WH that did NOT include Chaos than games that did. In fact, with the release of Vermintide, more WH games have featured the Skaven than Chaos.
There have been no Skaven in any of the WH40K games I own. In fact I'd never heard of them until Vermintide, which appears to be just WH.

It is also worth noting that at least two of the WH games I can think of were written with Skaven-centric storylines. That is a different ball of wax. Nobody expects the Germans in their WWII: Shadow of the Italian Rat.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:33 am

Blackhawk wrote:(Ignoring the importance of Chaos argument for a moment.)

Because it was something that should have been part of the base game that is being sold separately for extra money. It isn't extra content; it is basic content.

So basic, in fact, that it was referenced in the game's original cinematic trailer. This Chaos army is no fun little side project they had after the game's development was done. This is content that was always part of the core game, but which they removed so they could sell it to players for extra money. People often cry about DLC making the core game incomplete, but that's rarely correct. In this case however, it is. Total War: Warhammer is incomplete without the Chaos faction.

ydejin · Post by **ydejin** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:50 am

GreenGoo wrote:
baelthazar wrote:
But, to get back to TW:WH, my point is - there have been more games about WH that did NOT include Chaos than games that did. In fact, with the release of Vermintide, more WH games have featured the Skaven than Chaos.
There have been no Skaven in any of the WH40K games I own. In fact I'd never heard of them until Vermintide, which appears to be just WH.

Skaven AFAIK do not exist in WH40K but they are very popular and show up all the time in the Warhammer Fantasy setting. In the novels I'd say they show up about as frequently as chaos.

AWS260 · Post by **AWS260** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:01 am

Jeez, so much disagreement over a bunch of Warcraft rip-offs.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:12 am

AWS260 wrote:Jeez, so much disagreement over a bunch of Warcraft rip-offs.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:18 am

Blackhawk wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:
Max Peck wrote: OK, so it's the day-one DLC thing.
I thought you meant that the problem is that it is DLC is made available at the same time that the game is released, and therefore could/should have been included in the base game but has been split off so that you have to pay more money to get the "whole" game.
The idea that it should be included in the base game has nothing to do with the timing. It has to do with the content of the DLC. As in the previous example someone made, it is like creating Total War: WWII, giving you the Americans, British, Japanese, and Russians, but then charging extra for the Germans. They are content you would expect to see in the base game. Withholding them and charging extra for anyone not willing to preorder is the problem.

The only real argument here is whether Chaos are the Nazis of Warhammer. If they are (and a lot of people feel they are), then it is classless.

I have no problem with the fabled 'day one DLC' myself. It is usually extra content produced after the core team has completed work on the game itself. It is the Italians and the French.

FWIW, I, too will be buying this when it is on sale as a 'complete' pack on Steam for the 2017 Summer Sale for $14.99. I don't buy Total War games on release anymore. Up through Rome and Medieval II it was great. Since then? I'll consider spending after I see the reviews.

So they should never release DLC with meaningful content? (I kid, I kid.) I think I understand now. Thanks for spelling it out for me.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:05 am

TiLT wrote:
AWS260 wrote:Jeez, so much disagreement over a bunch of Warcraft rip-offs.

I lol'd.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:15 am

ydejin wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
baelthazar wrote:
But, to get back to TW:WH, my point is - there have been more games about WH that did NOT include Chaos than games that did. In fact, with the release of Vermintide, more WH games have featured the Skaven than Chaos.
There have been no Skaven in any of the WH40K games I own. In fact I'd never heard of them until Vermintide, which appears to be just WH.
Skaven AFAIK do not exist in WH40K but they are very popular and show up all the time in the Warhammer Fantasy setting. In the novels I'd say they show up about as frequently as chaos.

Cool.

Let me just step back here as, somehow, I've been conflating this game with a WH40K game, which is why my comments have been WH40K focused.

My interest is mostly WH40K and this game is only interesting to me because it's tangentially related to that universe, and it's TW, which I really like based on the only one I've ever played, which was the original TW: Shogun (so I'm little behind the times for TW games).

This is my way of saying that I've been focusing on Chaos in the WH40K universe which is not directly applicable to this game. My apologies. I know almost nothing about fantasy WH.

TiLT · Post by **TiLT** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:50 am

GreenGoo wrote:This is my way of saying that I've been focusing on Chaos in the WH40K universe which is not directly applicable to this game. My apologies. I know almost nothing about fantasy WH.

It's kind of different between the two settings. While the Chaos armies in WH40k mostly hide in large warp storms and don't really occupy an enormous amount of territory in the galaxy, the Chaos armies of Warhammer Fantasy occupy a vast extent of the northern hemisphere. While WH40k Chaos armies will sometimes declare a Black Crusade and march in force against a limited segment of the Imperium, one which barely affects the rest of the galaxy, the Warhammer Fantasy Chaos armies will occasionally come marching out of the north (where they have a permanently opened warp portal) and lay waste to almost everything. When their armies invade, nobody escapes unscathed. An army of undead might pose a threat to an eastern lord, and the greenskins may pose a threat to dwarf holdings and isolated communities, but Chaos is a threat to everyone and everything. Its forces are enormously powerful compared to anything else out there, and they only grow stronger for every attempt they make to invade the Empire and the rest of the world. In the 2nd edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (which is the last edition I care about), the Empire is just rising from the last Chaos invasion, and it's almost turned the Empire's rural areas into wartorn wastelands. No other army has ever done damage on a scale like that in Warhammer Fantasy to the best of my knowledge (disregarding ancient history and the lizardmen).

The main threat people have talked about from Chaos in the WH40k setting in this thread is from heresy and corruption. I don't really consider that when I talk about Chaos in terms of enemy armies. In WH40k, Chaos as a military enemy is the force of humans, traitor marines and daemons hiding in the warp storms and occasionally emerging to raid or invade. The same goes for Warhammer Fantasy. Heresy and mutants isn't what I call Chaos. When I speak about Chaos as the main enemy in that setting, I'm speaking about the armies in the northern wastes.

ydejin · Post by **ydejin** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:12 pm

AWS260 wrote:Jeez, so much disagreement over a bunch of Warcraft rip-offs.

Original here.

Toe · Post by **Toe** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:14 pm

As awesome as the game looks at the moment, due to their DLC tactics, I will not be pre-ordering nor purchasing the game at release. If chaos faction was part of the base game, and the release-day DLC was more flavor over function, I would have bought their game on release day. But, like others are doing, now I will just wait them out until a good sale.