Octopus Overlords

The immortal human God Emperor is an interesting contradiction. Is the brutal sacrifice of thousands daily to maintain the Empire noble and necessary? Is it all a deception? Chaos may not be wrong but the alternative in the W40K universe is terrifying.

Is there a decent primer available that doesn't expose me to hundred of dollars in follow-on materiel?

Lordnine wrote:There is also always the problem of Games Workshop likes to rework the backstory of things. For example, the newest codex for Necrons completely redid their lore, and in my opinion, made them a lot less interesting.

I don't doubt it. It seems obvious to me that nothing was created out of whole cloth and bits and pieces got fit together over time as one document said one thing, another document said something slightly different and so on. It's not WoW frankenstein-esque, but I think it's not much of a stretch to realize it's a jigsaw puzzle of thoughts and ideas over a lengthy period of time. I might go so far as to suggest inconsistencies in the lore is the reason for different views of it, and bad writing has been "covered up" by suggesting different races see things differently (which works nicely, I guess).

Isgrimnur wrote:Is there a decent primer available that doesn't expose me to hundred of dollars in follow-on materiel?

I found some text document. I don't remember where. It might have even been linked to from here. A search on WH40K fluff bible might even find it. Whether it's accurate or not is another story.

As L9 suggests, even official products are going to tell you different things.

Zarathud wrote:The immortal human God Emperor is an interesting contradiction. Is the brutal sacrifice of thousands daily to maintain the Empire noble and necessary? Is it all a deception? Chaos may not be wrong but the alternative in the W40K universe is terrifying.

Sure, a thousand sacrifices a day SOUNDS bad and all, but perspective is necessary.

It has been 10000 years since the Emperor was emtobed in the golden throne. In that time, ~3.5 BILLION lives have been burnt out keeping the Emperor alive and the Astronomicon alight. That's a lot of dead people. But it's also over 10000 years.

Meanwhile, Meridian, a generally unremarkable hive world in the Aurelia sector, has a population of 32 billion. Like all hive planets, it is completely dependent on the imperial fleet and trade networks, otherwise it would quickly starve and rip itself apart. But at 32 billion people, Meridian could easily afford to lose 365,000 people a year and never even notice....and Meridian is only 1 of 10s of thousands of hive worlds in the Imperium. The scale of the Imperium is so mind-bogglingly huge that 1000 sacrifices a day is not just insignificant, it's downright imperceptible.

Isgrimnur wrote:Is there a decent primer available that doesn't expose me to hundred of dollars in follow-on materiel?

The Lexicanum is a pretty good place to start. Basically Wikipedia for Warhammer.

Whos to say those sacrifices aren't just a ton of clones made for that purpose?

Little Raven wrote:

Zarathud wrote:The immortal human God Emperor is an interesting contradiction. Is the brutal sacrifice of thousands daily to maintain the Empire noble and necessary? Is it all a deception? Chaos may not be wrong but the alternative in the W40K universe is terrifying.

Sure, a thousand sacrifices a day SOUNDS bad and all, but perspective is necessary.

It has been 10000 years since the Emperor was emtobed in the golden throne. In that time, ~3.5 BILLION lives have been burnt out keeping the Emperor alive and the Astronomicon alight. That's a lot of dead people. But it's also over 10000 years.

Meanwhile, Meridian, a generally unremarkable hive world in the Aurelia sector, has a population of 32 billion. Like all hive planets, it is completely dependent on the imperial fleet and trade networks, otherwise it would quickly starve and rip itself apart. But at 32 billion people, Meridian could easily afford to lose 365,000 people a year and never even notice....and Meridian is only 1 of 10s of thousands of hive worlds in the Imperium. The scale of the Imperium is so mind-bogglingly huge that 1000 sacrifices a day is not just insignificant, it's downright imperceptible.

Those sacrificed are psykers, so you can't just round up vagrants that no one will miss and drop them in the trough. Also, the psykers sit around supporting the Emperor while he sucks them dry over days until they blip out like light bulbs, so it's not like they are "sacrificed" in a more traditional way, such as getting their heads cut off or whatever.

I don't know what percentage of the human race are supposed to be psykers, but it's relatively small. Oh, and I just remembered that the psykers are trained before entering the "emperor supporting chamber" and lots of psykers fail to make it that far (I think failure in this context is dying during training).

GreenGoo wrote:Those sacrificed are psykers, so you can't just round up vagrants that no one will miss and drop them in the trough.

Oh, I know that, but morally speaking, a psyker is just another human. I was just pointing out that while losing a thousand people a day SOUNDS awful, the number of human lives their sacrifice is helping to preserve is so incalculably high that any sane person would consider an absolute bargain.

Daehawk wrote:Whos to say those sacrifices aren't just a ton of clones made for that purpose?

Nope. As GreenGoo points out, we know exactly who goes in the Golden Throne - psykers, humans blessed (or cursed) with a connection to the Warp. These individuals are collected from the myriad worlds of the Imperium by the Black Ships and brought to Terra for...processing. That sound super ominous, and it kinda is, but it's also very necessary - an uncontrolled psyker is a terrible threat not only to himself but to anyone remotely near him. (as in, being on the SAME PLANET with an uncontrolled psyker is dangerous) Psykers are rigorously tested, with those that qualify being trained to operate on the battlefield, as astropaths or navigators or, if they're strong enough, maybe even joining the Inquisition. (I'm not quite sure how psykers end up as Space Marines, but some Space Marines are psykers...so...it happens, somehow.) Those that have enough of a spark to touch the Warp but not enough to do anything useful with it...well, off to the throne they go. It's not the most pleasant of fates, but these people were not going to live long in any case - if the Imperium didn't get them, the forces of Chaos would.

On a tangent note, while cloning definitely exists in the world of 40K, I'm pretty sure it's considered deeply problematic by the Imperium, and I suspect that even playing around with it would be an excellent way to have the full force of the Ordo Hereticus come crashing down on you. (and anyone else unlucky enough to be within several miles of you - those guys don't mess around) Generally speaking, people are one resource that is SUPER PLENTIFUL in the Imperium - I doubt you could convince the Inquisition that you had a legitimate reason for trying to clone them.

Oh I thought all of the space marines were dna clones of the Emperor some way. From what Ive seen they dont all look alike.

Watching this game being played on Twitch gives em a serious urge to play Starfarer again. If you guys have not tried that game I think you might enjoy it.

Lordnine wrote:And then I discovered that their Ethereals use a kind of pheromone based mind control to keep their population loyal and happy. For the greater good!

If it makes you feel any better, that's just Imperial propaganda. Nobody knows how the Ethereals do what they do....pheromones is just one more bit of speculation.

That said - it certainly SEEMS a bit sinister when you look at it. Especially given how Commander Farsight reacted when he was unexpectedly freed, though there's plenty of suspicion about HIM as well.

Daehawk wrote:Oh I thought all of the space marines were dna clones of the Emperor some way. From what Ive seen they dont all look alike.

The Primarchs were clones if I recall, but most Space Marine Chapters have recruitment worlds, they aren’t clones themselves necessarily. They are however hosts for Gene Seed, which is basically the DNA template for the super soldiers. Gene Seed itself is pretty interesting, overtime is can become mutated, which has resulted in some pretty messed up chapters. One of the Chapters (Blood Eagles I think?) drink blood and some Space Wolves grow literal claws.

The fluff I read was a bit unclear, but the extra organs and whatnot are cloned from the "geneseed" of previous marines/primarchs. The marines themselves are recruited from the chapter's homeworld/recruitment world.

There's a lot of surgery involved in becoming a marine, apparently.

Considering I've read that marines are recruited from "normal" human populations and that marines are all 8 feet tall, I'm not sure what the deal is.

Little Raven wrote:

GreenGoo wrote:Those sacrificed are psykers, so you can't just round up vagrants that no one will miss and drop them in the trough.

Oh, I know that, but morally speaking, a psyker is just another human. I was just pointing out that while losing a thousand people a day SOUNDS awful, the number of human lives their sacrifice is helping to preserve is so incalculably high that any sane person would consider an absolute bargain.

Only a filthy heretic would say that warped-touched mutant psykers are "just another human." While we use sanctioned psykers to augment human hegemony, for most of them the best they can hope for is for the Inquisition to hunt them down and "suppress them" (*cough* just forget the Inquisitors are also mostly sanctioned psykers *cough*).

AFAIK, the Primarchs are not clones of the Emperor. He created them at his Luna lab using powers and science derived from his unfulfilled bargain with the Chaos Gods. Technically, the Emperor is the father of the Primarchs, but how that works is not altogether clear. The primarchs are not clones, because they have distinct personalities and strengths that make them unique and make each Space Marine Chapter a bit unique.

Also, the Space Marines are not clones, they are regular human beings who were "elevated" by exposure to the Primarch's gene seed. Yes, you implant space demigod sperm into tested humans and it grows all sorts of new organs and makes them space marines (but also, I believe, makes them sterile). AFAIK, they must be male.

baelthazar wrote:Only a filthy heretic would say that warped-touched mutant psykers are "just another human." While we use sanctioned psykers to augment human hegemony, for most of them the best they can hope for is for the Inquisition to hunt them down and "suppress them" (*cough* just forget the Inquisitors are also mostly sanctioned psykers *cough*).

Hey, do you know how some Space Marines come to be psykers? Gene seed does a lot of things, but I didn't think that was one of them. So are they psykers BEFORE they become Space Marines, or does that emerge afterwards in some cases?

Story of the Emperor in about a minute.

Lordnine wrote:So this is why you don't let an Ork ship get close.

The rammed ship barely took any damage that I could see, assuming those are health bars over the ships. Or did the ship that moved off screen blow up?

It looked cool, in any case.

Isgrimnur wrote:Story of the Emperor in about a minute.

That matches up with what I had read pretty well, the only glaring difference is that despite the Emperium ascending and declining at various points in time, it is the most powerful empire in the galaxy. The Tyranid are just arriving from another galaxy and it is not known what to expect, other than serious trouble. Everyone else is smaller and less powerful overall. The stuff I read was pretty early stuff, and only mentioned the Eldar, Tyranid, Orks and Chaos I think. Tau, Necrons and such were not, so I assume they arrived in the galaxy after the lore I read was written.

GreenGoo wrote:That matches up with what I had read pretty well, the only glaring difference is that despite the Emperium ascending and declining at various points in time, it is the most powerful empire in the galaxy.

That's still true as far as I know. The Imperium is HUGE, and is basically always fighting a war on all fronts, so it gets its butt whipped on a fairly regular basis, but it's still the biggest kid in the playground by a fair margin. The Eldar and Necron are too few, the Orks too divided, Chaos is strong but limited by virtue of the Warp, the Tau are too young, and the Tyranids are just now getting to the party.

The Orks would conquer all the other races, if they could ever unify. But constant infighting, even at the lowest levels of their - let's call it a "society" - prevent that. Remember, the prevailing imperial theory on the Orks is that they are part fungus and that each Ork death releases spores that terraform planets and spawn more Orks. So infighting is like Ork sex (they can also sew back on body parts, even severed heads, and live, like Deadpool).

Like all undead, the Necron exist in relentless numbers that regenerate, but are limited by being dormant until awakened from their tombs.

Lordnine, yes our noble Librarians are Psykers before elevation. But their rigorous training ensures that those who would be tainted by the warp do not make it to the order!

Zarathud wrote:The immortal human God Emperor is an interesting contradiction. Is the brutal sacrifice of thousands daily to maintain the Empire noble and necessary? Is it all a deception? Chaos may not be wrong but the alternative in the W40K universe is terrifying.

The Golden Throne is failing and Chaos is aware of it. Its the reason for the 13th Black Crusade

Just wanted to add that prevailing theories the missing Primarchs will start returning slowly with the Emperor being reborn or rising from the Golden Throne. Which will cause some issues especially with the Lords of Terra and The Ecclesiarchy. THe Lords of Terra will loathe to give up power and Emperor won't be too happy that The Ecclesiarchy basically raised him to Godhood something he strictly was against

All I know is all will be consumed by the Hive. BUZZ-BUZZ

Anyone played the game yet?

Go back a page before we got sidetracked

Having fun 6 missions in. You will fail a few times until the strategy starts making more sense. Enemies will retreat before you can kill them. Ramming speed and torpedoes are very effective.

baelthazar wrote:
Lordnine, yes our noble Librarians are Psykers before elevation. But their rigorous training ensures that those who would be tainted by the warp do not make it to the order!

The Dawn of War 2 story-line has a thing or two to say about that.

Lordnine wrote:

baelthazar wrote:
Lordnine, yes our noble Librarians are Psykers before elevation. But their rigorous training ensures that those who would be tainted by the warp do not make it to the order!

The Dawn of War 2 story-line has a thing or two to say about that.

Thought that was DOW1 where the Librarian uh... had issues (do you spoiler a game this old???)

I suppose I should play them if I want more info.

Zenn7 wrote:Thought that was DOW1 where the Librarian uh... had issues (do you spoiler a game this old???)

Both, actually. The Blood Ravens do struggle with heresy in their own ranks.

Lordnine wrote:

baelthazar wrote:
Lordnine, yes our noble Librarians are Psykers before elevation. But their rigorous training ensures that those who would be tainted by the warp do not make it to the order!

The Dawn of War 2 story-line has a thing or two to say about that.

Again, more heretic propaganda! If you persist in this, I shall alert Lord Inquisitor Eisenhorn!

Umm... and pay no attention that Eisenhorn has been accused of collusion with demonic Chaos forces...

baelthazar wrote:
Again, more heretic propaganda! If you persist in this, I shall alert Lord Inquisitor Eisenhorn!

Umm... and pay no attention that Eisenhorn has been accused of collusion with demonic Chaos forces...

It will be a pleasure to meet your Inquisitor, Mon’keigh. After all, the Emperor is with him, isn’t he? heheh

Eldar in the streets, Dark Eldar in the sheets... amirght... or amiright?

On topic, all this 40K talk made me buy the game. But it may be some time before I get to play it.

Seriously though, screw Eldar transport ship missions in this game. I have only managed to win the mission type once with about 6 tries. I always managed to pin down 1-2 but as soon and I get to the last one, it activates ludicrous speed and just zips past me with no chance of catching it before it leaves the sector.

The one time I finished the mission, it was by pure blind luck. I had destroyed two of the enemy transports but there were two enemy blips almost to the escape vector. There was no way I was going to catch up to them. I decided I didn’t have anything to lose, so I swung capital ship with the Nova cannon a full 180 degrees and fired blindly at the closest blip. It managed to land on the transport and exploded it instantly in one shot, winning me the mission.

If anyone has real tips for winning these missions, I would love to hear them.

I hate transport missions and data retrieval missions. I believe though that there's a bomb that slows down ships caught in the explosion. Unfortunately none of my ships are equipped with it at the moment.

I'm playing skirmish games to improve on my campaign game strategy and that's been fun. Frustrating at times but still fun.

I keep trying to post about this, but I keep getting interrupted and accidentally losing my post.

Suffice to say, I'm really enjoying the game. While the campaign does lack some depth as far as strategic decisions go, it does it's job well by acting as a backdrop to give context to all your battles. Instead of just fighting another Eldar fleet, now you're trying to drive them back from a key system in time to deploy across the sector to keep the Orks from making more gains while you're been busy keeping Chaos at bay. Not to mention all the events and story missions that can pop up.

In my current campaign on normal I was off to a great start without any losses, but I'm around turn 18 now and I just got dealt two back to back defeats by the Eldar which has temporarily gutted my fleet. Just in time of course for the Champion of Tzeentch to show up while I've barely got any ships to throw at him.

Looking forward to seeing the new fleets added, and I really hope they're looking into adding campaigns for the other factions as well.

I see the Space Marines are a different "faction" than the Imperium (Imperial armies of man). It seems like in the DOW games at least (most of my exposure to WH40K), Space Marines and Imperial forces get into conflicts far too often for people that are not just allied, but are the same side. Is it really like that or warped perception required by the games to make them 2 separate playable factions?

Zenn, the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines do often get into conflict. You have to remember, for the Space Marines, the Imperial Guard are just cannon fodder at best, and a corruptible annoyance at worst. The IG also uses Ogryn, mutants, which is problematic. The IG do not like being treated as cannon fodder, and often resent the utter disdain of the Space Marines.

This is a grim dark future where the Space Marines and Inquisition will carry out an exterminatus protocol on a world of billions to get rid of a suspected Ork or Tyrannid infestation.

baelthazar wrote:Zenn, the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines do often get into conflict. You have to remember, for the Space Marines, the Imperial Guard are just cannon fodder at best, and a corruptible annoyance at worst. The IG also uses Ogryn, mutants, which is problematic. The IG do not like being treated as cannon fodder, and often resent the utter disdain of the Space Marines.

This is a grim dark future where the Space Marines and Inquisition will carry out an exterminatus protocol on a world of billions to get rid of a suspected Ork or Tyrannid infestation.

Thanks - with friends like this, neither of these people need the hordes of enemies they have!

And remember that the fluff is just there to give a reason why my space marine army can fight your space marine or Imperial army and Games Workshop can sell more minis